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Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

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  • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

    On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:23:57 -0600, toto <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    Positive parenting doesn't need punishment and punishment generallydoesn't work well in conjunction with it because the attitudes areantithetical.
    Bull****. Kids require punishment. There are no qualified child
    behaviorists or child psychologists who would say otherwise.

    Saying it doesn't work with positive parenting is bull**** also. I
    have far more experience in this area than you do, given your claims
    below. I have seen kids who were never parented because their parents
    refused to set guidelines or direct children who did behave poorly. I
    have also seen kids who were punished too severely, and who have
    issues due to this. The proper method is in the middle.

    When a child misbehaves, the first time you need to point out the bad
    behavior and instruct them on proper behavior. The next time you need
    to explain that further poor behavior will result in punishment. The
    next time they get punished.

    At the same time you are doing this, you need to reward good behavior.
    This means actually being a parent - which most Americans have no clue
    how to do. You need to watch your children and notice good things as
    often as bad things. Hug them, kiss them, sing to them, pray with
    them, read to them - and do those things every time you witness good
    behavior. Granted you may need to group the good behavior and reward
    groups instead of single incidents, assuming the child behaves well
    often. But in the case of a child who misbehaves often, rewards must
    come far more often.

    Take this parenting style and use it from the day the child is born.
    Adapt it for age. A baby does not misbehave. A toddler generally
    does not misbehave. A 2-year old does misbehave, and must be directed
    in good behavior. Telling little Johnny to stop hitting the window
    may work for some kids, but for others it takes much more.

    Now, you can criticize my views all you want, but at 6 months my
    children started receiving punishment when they did things that were
    dangerous such as hitting a window. That punishment may have been
    redirecting their attention (taking away that which they want IS
    punishment). Sometimes it was a slap on the hand. By 8 months my son
    would put himself in time out when told to. By 18 months he was able
    to say he was sorry for misbehaving. By 3 years he would be warned
    that further misbehaving would mean we would have to discuss
    punishment. His desire to please us meant he would generally not want
    to talk about punishment. I rarely had to punish him, because he had
    both positive and negative reinforcement.

    In addition to my children, I have more than 30 nieces and nephews. I
    have seen their parents fail, and succeed. Believe me, the ones who
    fail were not the ones who punished, it was the opposite.
    Punishment and Rewards work *only* to change behavior in the shortterm.
    Bull****. Changing long term behavior starts with changing short term
    behavior. Once short term behavior is changed, long term behavior can
    begin to be modeled.
    baby on the way. I have taught high school math, been involved with
    Now I know why you are such a poor parent. High school teachers
    generally are. Wait, let me rephrase that - all teachers generally
    are bad parents. Their inability to control the classroom and teach
    is as apparent at home as it is in school.

    Comment


    • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

      toto <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
      On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:58:02 GMT, DTJ <[email protected]> wrote:
      Neither the research nor the anecdotal evidence from my 30 yearsof contact with children supports you in that. The people in jailwere more likely abused than brought up with positive parenting.True, but positive parenting does not in any way state that you shouldnot punish bad behavior.
      Positive parenting doesn't need punishment and punishment generally doesn't work well in conjunction with it because the attitudes are antithetical. Punishment and Rewards work *only* to change behavior in the short term.
      Dorothy, I don't think this is true, and it certainly isn't verifiable
      in any case. Since *punishment* and *rewards* in the sense you are
      referring to them cannot be used in isolation, there's no way to
      reliably separate out their effects from all the confounding factors
      that also impact long term behavior changes.
      They don't work to produce self-disciplined adults which is what most parents are after. While used *very sparingly,* they may not have a huge negative effect,
      As close to an admission that *punishment* need not be detrimental as
      I'm likely to ever see from you. Thank you.
      they are unnecessary and insufficient to the task at hand.
      This statement *may* be true in regards to the task of raising
      children to be self-sufficient self-motivated adults. I'm not sure.
      But it in no way invalidates the use of punishment in order to
      optimize other needs. Sometimes short term behavorial changes are
      necessary due to contraints on certain resources - like parental
      patience and the need to pay attention to other matters such as
      putting food on the table, changing diapers, getting adequate rest,
      etc.

      I'm not saying that punishment is a *good thing*, only that sometimes,
      when used sparingly, mild punishment can be the optimum approach to
      balancing the many conflicting needs and demands on our time that all
      parents face.

      For example, one day last week it was late and I was quite tired when
      my son started acting up. He didn't want to go upstairs and get ready
      for bed. Now, under other circumstances, I might have managed a more
      'positive parenting' approach, but that night I just didn't have the
      physical energy to pick him up and carry him nor the mental energy to
      devise a cute ploy that would work.

      I let him know what I wanted him to do and started counting. He knows
      if I get to 5, he gets a time-out. He went upstairs without further
      argument. Now, I agree that isn't going to produce long term
      self-motiving behavioral change, but that will come with time and
      other efforts. I won't be putting him to bed forever. But for now,
      sometimes I just want him to behave and I find the minor detrimental
      effects of using punishment occasionally to achieve that when I need
      it to be well worth it.
      Positive parenting is NOT the opposite side of the behaviorist coin - that is, using rewards. Try Parent Effectiveness Training and see. Try reading Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish who changed their attitude through PET and then and eventually wrote How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk.
      I have read Parent Effectiveness Training. I was unimpressed. I
      wouldn't recommend the book myself. I did not agree with their basic
      concept of the democratic family.

      Comment


      • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

        On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:00:20 GMT, DTJ <[email protected]> wrote:
        On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:23:57 -0600, toto <[email protected]>wrote:
        Positive parenting doesn't need punishment and punishment generallydoesn't work well in conjunction with it because the attitudes areantithetical.
        Bull****. Kids require punishment. There are no qualified childbehaviorists or child psychologists who would say otherwise.Saying it doesn't work with positive parenting is bull**** also. Ihave far more experience in this area than you do, given your claimsbelow. I have seen kids who were never parented because their parentsrefused to set guidelines or direct children who did behave poorly. Ihave also seen kids who were punished too severely, and who haveissues due to this. The proper method is in the middle.
        Positive parenting doesn't mean no discipline. The root of the word
        discipline is teaching, not punishment though we have confused the
        word with this in popular psychology.

        I have seen children who were undisciplined because they have been
        neglected and because the parents have basically allowed the children
        to abuse the family and the adults feelings. But that is not positive
        parenting either.
        When a child misbehaves, the first time you need to point out the badbehavior and instruct them on proper behavior. The next time you needto explain that further poor behavior will result in punishment. Thenext time they get punished.
        When a child *misbehaves* especially a very young child, you first
        must find out what need the child is meeting by the misbehavior.

        Once you find this out, you can redirect the child into behavior that
        meets that need and also meets your need for the child to not
        *misbehave.* You also need to understand child development
        well enough so that your expectations are not beyond the child's
        developmental stage. Sometimes what parents define as *misbehavior*
        is really not misbehavior at all, but the child exploring his world as
        he should.

        Also, you have to be specific about any behavior you wish to change.
        It is much easier to change the behavior when you are. The best
        way to change that behavior is to listen to the child and to see the
        child as wanting to be good even when s/he is doing something you
        don't like. You acknowledge it when the child is doing the right
        thing rather than focussing on the negative. Believe me it works.
        At the same time you are doing this, you need to reward good behavior.This means actually being a parent - which most Americans have no cluehow to do. You need to watch your children and notice good things asoften as bad things. Hug them, kiss them, sing to them, pray withthem, read to them - and do those things every time you witness goodbehavior. Granted you may need to group the good behavior and rewardgroups instead of single incidents, assuming the child behaves welloften. But in the case of a child who misbehaves often, rewards mustcome far more often.Take this parenting style and use it from the day the child is born.Adapt it for age. A baby does not misbehave. A toddler generallydoes not misbehave. A 2-year old does misbehave, and must be directedin good behavior. Telling little Johnny to stop hitting the windowmay work for some kids, but for others it takes much more.
        Telling a child to stop almost never works in the long term. Kids
        will go back to things and test your reaction over and over. Better
        to tell them what they *can* do. Come and hit the drum works much
        better than *don't hit the window.*
        Now, you can criticize my views all you want, but at 6 months mychildren started receiving punishment when they did things that weredangerous such as hitting a window. That punishment may have beenredirecting their attention (taking away that which they want ISpunishment).
        Redirecting to something they can do is not punishment. I agree
        that children need to be redirected away from dangerous things when
        they are infants and toddlers to be sure.

        Sometimes it was a slap on the hand. By 8 months my sonwould put himself in time out when told to. By 18 months he was ableto say he was sorry for misbehaving. By 3 years he would be warnedthat further misbehaving would mean we would have to discusspunishment. His desire to please us meant he would generally not wantto talk about punishment. I rarely had to punish him, because he hadboth positive and negative reinforcement.
        I didn't have to punish my children to get them to behave. They both
        wanted to please me.

        When my son was 18 months old, he didn't really understand why other
        children didn't share their toys. He shared willingly because we as
        parents played sharing games with him.

        My dd and ds both learned from various ways the adults around them
        behaved. Children learn what they live.

        If you want to see how a child views such punishments, watch them
        with their dolls and puppets. They will do what you do to them to
        the dolls. And their language will tell you what they think. *Bad
        doll. Go to time-out now.* *Bad doll.* Spanking the doll as they
        say it. The expression on the child's face is most often one of
        anger.
        In addition to my children, I have more than 30 nieces and nephews. Ihave seen their parents fail, and succeed. Believe me, the ones whofail were not the ones who punished, it was the opposite.
        Positive parenting doesn't mean *no* discipline. It's a change in
        attitude toward the child.

        Positive parents listen to their children and teach more by example.
        When your words don't match your actions (and they don't when you
        punish a child - *Don't hit.. but I can hit you cause I am your dad.*
        *Don't yell... but I can yell at you to stop because I am your mom.*)
        the child learns that a lot of things are ok, that you don't want to
        teach.
        Punishment and Rewards work *only* to change behavior in the shortterm.Bull****. Changing long term behavior starts with changing short termbehavior. Once short term behavior is changed, long term behavior canbegin to be modeled.
        No, actually it doesn't.

        Often changing behavior in the short term with punishment simply
        leads to a child who will sneak the behavior when s/he believes that
        s/he won't be caught.
        baby on the way. I have taught high school math, been involved withNow I know why you are such a poor parent. High school teachersgenerally are. Wait, let me rephrase that - all teachers generallyare bad parents. Their inability to control the classroom and teachis as apparent at home as it is in school.
        LOL. My children are grown and quite successful.

        My son and daughter both graduated college and are in careers they
        like. My dd is married, but has no children, my son is married and
        has one now and one on the way. Exactly how would you call that
        unsuccessful.

        My children were even good as teenagers. They had their problems,
        like any kids, but they were not rebellious or difficult.

        My son played soccer and chess and finished a year of college
        by his senior year of high school. My daughter was still in girl
        scouts in high school, went to Europe with scouts, was involved
        with theater productions and went on to a carreer as a scenic
        artist.


        --
        Dorothy

        There is no sound, no cry in all the world
        that can be heard unless someone listens ..

        The Outer Limits

        Comment


        • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

          [email protected] (Beth Kevles) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
          About the speeding part, just pay. --Beth Kevles [email protected] http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
          I find it intriguing that someone who apparently knows a lot about
          milk allergies but is not a doctor has no hesitation in offering legal
          advice here ...
          --
          C.R. Krieger
          Attorney at Law (Yeah, really. You can look it up.)

          Comment


          • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

            "ColoradoSkiBum" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
            "Garth Almgren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] : Around 11/25/2003 8:11 PM, ColoradoSkiBum wrote: : : > : I believe that yellow lights have to be at least one-tenth second for : > : each MPH of the prima facie speed limit in order to substantiate a red : > : light conviction. : > : > What are you saying? That if the speed limit is 50 mph, then the yellow : > light only has to be 0.5 seconds long??? : : 50 * 0.1 = 5 seconds. : : Ahhh, right, I gotcha, I did misread the post. So I guess if I ever get a ticket in such a situation, I should probably get a stopwatch and time the yellow before I go to traffic court.

            It worked in Brookpark (?) Ohio, where a similar 'long' intersection
            and an impossibly 'short' yellow light was used to produce regular
            revenue for the city. They had to change the light timing and try to
            give back a bunch of money.
            --
            C.R. Krieger
            "Never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast." - W.C.
            Fields

            Comment


            • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

              [email protected] (chiam margalit) wrote in message news:<[email protected] com>...
              I TOTALLY agree. We spend a couple of weeks *every* summer inside 128 in Boston, and every year I think I'm taking my life in my hands the second I get into a car. Not only is Boston the most insane place to drive other then Italy that I've ever been in, but the roads suck, the signage is worse, and people have absolutely no patience.
              Hey! Leave Italy out of it! Even in Rome, I feel safer driving than
              almost anywhere in that Godforsaken BoNYWash corridor. While it may
              *seem* insane in Italy, my own opinion is that they are quite a bit
              *more* competent than your average Boston driver. Their attitude is
              different, too. While a Boston driver just doesn't give a **** (at
              best; more commonly, they entertain an active hatred of other
              drivers), Italians have a friendlier composure. IOW, when *they* chop
              you off in traffic with six inches to spare, they give you a smile and
              wave with *all* of their fingers.
              --
              C.R. Krieger
              "Never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast." - W.C.
              Fields

              Comment


              • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

                [email protected] (nilanjan) wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
                BTW ... I think I am the best parent one can be !!!
                At least the kids'll learn how to have overinflated egos ...
                --
                C.R. Krieger
                "Never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast." - W.C. Fields

                Comment


                • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

                  chiam margalit wrote:
                  "Arthur L. Rubin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
                  chiam margalit wrote:
                  When I returned to CA I got a ticket for going through a yellow light, and got that minimum fine ticket.
                  Actually, I know someone else who CLAIMED she got a ticket for going throught a yellow light. She had other mental problems, also. Seriously, there is only one ACTUAL violation that might be considered going through a yellow light -- that's the anti-gridlock law which specifies that if you enter an intersection, there must be room to clear it by the time your light becomes red.
                  Uh DUH. That's exactly what I said, maroon!
                  Wrong. You said you must clear the intersection by the
                  time the light becomes red. I said there must be room
                  for the intersection to clear -- in fact, before you
                  enter the intersection, rather than "before the light
                  becomes red", as I stated -- but there is no requirement
                  that you be able to clear the intersection before the
                  light becomes red.

                  Maroon!

                  --
                  This account is subject to a persistent MS Blaster and SWEN attack.
                  I think I've got the problem resolved, but, if you E-mail me
                  and it bounces, a second try might work.
                  However, please reply in newsgroup.


                  Comment


                  • Driving speed child seatbelt violation $430 ??

                    In article <[email protected]>, Arthur L. Rubin says...
                    chiam margalit wrote:
                    "Arthur L. Rubin" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:<[email protected]>...
                    chiam margalit wrote: > > When I returned to CA I got a > ticket for going through a yellow light, and got that minimum fine > ticket. Actually, I know someone else who CLAIMED she got a ticket for going throught a yellow light. She had other mental problems, also. Seriously, there is only one ACTUAL violation that might be considered going through a yellow light -- that's the anti-gridlock law which specifies that if you enter an intersection, there must be room to clear it by the time your light becomes red.
                    Uh DUH. That's exactly what I said, maroon!
                    Wrong. You said you must clear the intersection by thetime the light becomes red. I said there must be roomfor the intersection to clear -- in fact, before youenter the intersection, rather than "before the lightbecomes red", as I stated -- but there is no requirementthat you be able to clear the intersection before thelight becomes red.Maroon!
                    Cardinal! The color is Cardinal!

                    Oh, never mind...

                    Banty (just thinking of the location of Marjorie's intersection ;-)

                    Comment

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