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15 year old dating a 18 year old /Michigan

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  • MomofBoys
    replied
    Originally posted by joec
    Common sense is not so common when you deal with rules of evidence,and admissibility. To make a criminal charge of anything requires more than a hunch "well you know the girl was 16 boy is 18 so they had to be doing the horizontal bop". That is far from evidence,and its not mentioned in the post.
    A lot of posters took a lot of liberty with that assumption. Cases are not won on assumptions.
    Correct. But I am talking about common sense when dealing with a 16 year old (actually, she was 15 at the time) when they post about themselves and their boyfriends.

    I was not telling her what would stick in court. I was telling her that IF she was engaging in sexual contact with her boyfriend, the reply at she is good to go once she is 16 is not correct. Was I assuming that she was. Absolutley. The advice is still valid.

    Certaily older people can pass on information that is wise,of course. I dont think the High school senior was advocating the poster to behave in less than lady like manner.
    I think she sounds quite smart for a 17 year old. But she did post several times that she knew what she was talking about, and she was sassy about it. When the truth was, she had something to learn. There is such a thing as too much confidence. She would do well to really learn all the laws, not just some.

    Your right "the purpose of the board is information, not for anyone to be putting anyone else into their proverbial "place". Which is what baystate girl was attempting to do . She thought she had an inexperienced kid that could be muscled,the kid turned it around on her. Now I think its fair to say that the high school senior was underestimated. Baystreetgirl should apologize for being out of line. The high school senior should be encouraged to bone up on family law,since it appears she has interest in it as anyone posting on this format does. Just because she is a senior does not imply that she can not research,and cite statute. She could be wrong big deal,I've been wrong before. I've seen lawyers get it wrong here occasionally.
    Thats the way I see it.
    JoeC
    I've seen lots of posters, yourself included, post some rather nasty things to and about others from time to time. I know I've been guilty of it. If I remeber correctly, you actually used the "c" word disguised as the "k" word once.

    I guess I don't understand how you can say that bay is wrong on one hand, then call her names (the board loud mouth) on the other. It's fairly hypocritical. What do you care if she is mean to someone? As you pointed out, Heather handled herself just fine.

    Leave a comment:


  • mommyof4
    replied
    Originally posted by joec
    Oh granted her ansewer was not perfect,and it did not take into account the influence the father has over the son irregardless of age. You can not assume that a 16 year old girl will always do the wrong thing. A child abuse charge would be a very hard sell,only an overzealous prosecutor would attempt it.
    Not to mention the evidentiary burden required for bringing such a charge before the bench.

    M.4 citations where in response to whether the law cited by demartain was Federal or state. M.4 answered with a state law in Florida which has no relevance in Michigan. Nothing posted even comes close to making a federal criminal case.

    I never said you jumped her read my post again.
    JoeC
    I actually answered YOUR question. I then provided the information for the correct state.

    Leave a comment:


  • demartian
    replied
    The various laws that are currently being passed by the states came into affect around December of 2006 some time. I lost my original links to those, but had them last year when they were being passed.

    So, this topic changes...

    What was correct last year is not necessarily correct this year. Good sense says that if the child is under 18, they may want to wait out the extra years just in case.

    For the record however, what do I care if a 16 or 17 year old dates someone? It's when the 13 year olds come on here thinking they are adults or adults wanting to date 13 year olds that I have to draw the line.

    Leave a comment:


  • MomofBoys
    replied
    Originally posted by joec
    Oh granted her ansewer was not perfect,and it did not take into account the influence the father has over the son irregardless of age. You can not assume that a 16 year old girl will always do the wrong thing. A child abuse charge would be a very hard sell,only an overzealous prosecutor would attempt it.
    Not to mention the evidentiary burden required for bringing such a charge before the bench.
    I don't assume the 16 year old girl is doing anything WRONG, but it's probable that she's steaming up the windows in the back seat with the guy, even without sex. I don't think that is WRONG, but it could possibly get him in trouble, despite their good intentions.

    Yes, I think child abuse would be a hard sell, and the ADA would find him/herslef prosecuting cases in traffic court for the next several years. But it doesn't take much to get an INDICTMENT. I was just hoping to point out that it's not as easy as "once you are 16 you are good." If the kid's Dad was a cop, it might be inhis best interest to stay away from his girlfriend until she is 18. Perhaps it was as simple as Dad had seen other teenagers get railroaded for their involvment with their high school girlfriends.

    M.4 citations where in response to whether the law cited by demartain was Federal or state. M.4 answered with a state law in Florida which has no relevance in Michigan. Nothing posted even comes close to making a federal criminal case.
    She also posted the parallel Michigan statute in that same post. Post number 26.

    I never said you jumped her read my post again.
    JoeC
    I know you didn't accuse me of it... I was actually recognizing that it does happen. I didn't do it, but I'm sure I've done it before and will likely do it again. It happens sometimes, whether it is acceptable or not, it just is.

    Leave a comment:


  • MomofBoys
    replied
    Originally posted by joec
    You mean a variety of laws not relevant to the original post (such as the A.O.C). Have you looked them up,did the loud mouth? No.
    O.P:

    This is a question of dating, not A.O.C,truancy, or delinquency unless you are aware of facts not presented why pose leading questions that call for a conclusion? The board loud mouth was put in her place by a high school senior. McGruff & The Korean Fly Girls are impressed.
    JoeC
    I understand what you are saying, but common sense says that dating teenagers ARE doing something sexually (kissing, touching, heavy petting, necking, whatever the kids are calling it these days). The OP says they are not, but it makes good sense to ere on the side of caution and assume there is a least some PG-13 rated slap and tickle going on.

    There is NO law against dating in ANY state. The OP was specifically told that. The OP was told it might be a good idea to stay away from the boyfriend until she reached the AOC. Heather furthered that topic by advising the OP:

    Once you turn 16, so long as you have parental consent from your mother, you're fine. His father doesn't need to approve because he is 18 and legally an adult, and therefore, not under his father's jurisdiction.
    This tells the OP there is nothing to worry about, and it is in direct response to this piece of advice that further discussions about AOC, delinquency, federal laws and truancy were brought up: because it really is not as cut and dry as "you're 16, you're good to go."

    Baystate girl was not the one to bring up AOC. Demartian brought it up.... LAST YEAR. Then Heather brought it up. THEN, and only AFTER that, did baystategirl discuss it.

    The purpose of the board is information, not for anyone to be putting anyone else into their proverbial "place."

    I suppose this (AOC and what it means, etc) would be another good one for the Legal Lounge.
    Last edited by MomofBoys; 12-14-2007, 06:09 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MomofBoys
    replied
    Originally posted by joec
    O.K M4 thats what I thought,that is a state law in Florida.Where is the federal law mentioned in post #13 (There are other laws , (State and Federal), that may be broken when an adult diddles with a LEGAL CHILD.)

    Once again there was no mention of intercourse in the original thread that heatherellej was responding to,then jumped on all over in subsequent posts for no apparent reason. Granted the kid got some of the interpretation wrong (A.O.C) but she got a bulk of it right. In fact Momyofboys definition which appears correct show that heatherellej erred on the side of caution,and you cant jump a guy for that. You cant jump a guy for making a good faith effort,and citing statute. Thats my point.
    JoeC
    You are correct, there was no intercourse or any sex act discussed by the OP. But when speaking about the dating habits of a 16 and 18 year olds, common sense tells us that they are probably not playing parcheesi and ending the evening with a firm handshake goodnight.

    Heather's reponse indicated to me that she was telling the OP, don't worry, once you've hit the age of consent, there's nothing that can be done. And that's not true.

    State laws alone allow for delinquency charges and, as I said if you get a prosecutor who is creative enough, child abuse charges. Those were available in Heather's own citations, as well as those of mommyof4.

    Federal laws involve offenses over the internet, as I cited.

    I certainly did not jump on her, and yes, it does happen sometimes. But it's important not to post the answers unless and until your answers are absolute. Heather's answers were accurate to what she was specifically saying, but they were incomplete, which made them poor advice. The OP would need ALL the facts, not just the ones that seem to apply.

    Leave a comment:


  • demartian
    replied
    Trust me, they would be filtering and monitoring a lot more if they could get it passed...

    I know the military has an AOC, but I think since everyone would have a state of residence, that would be the AOC used, even in a Federal case.

    But AOC is not related to these other laws. They all simply say a minor (under 18 years of age).

    Leave a comment:


  • Ohiogal
    replied
    Originally posted by heatherellej View Post
    Thank you, I appreciate having someone back me up on this.


    And Baystate:

    Criminal sexual conduct (CSC): Michigan law allows minors to consent to sexual activity if they are 16 or older (MCLA 750-520a-750.5201).

    http://www.miplannedparenthood.org/minors.htm

    CONSENT, AGE OF
    # In Michigan, a minor has the legal capacity to consent to sexual activity at age 16. [See Criminal Sexual Conduct.]

    http://www.eatoncounty.org/prosecutor/define.htm


    CRIMINAL SEXUAL CONDUCT
    # Michigan categorizes four degrees of "CSC":

    * 1st Degree: (MCL 750.520b --- Felony --- life or any term of years + AIDS~HIV~STD testing) --- a sexual act involving penetration (sexual intercourse, anal intercourse, cunnilingus, fellatio, intrusion into any other body part or object in genital or anal openings) and any of the following:
    o victim is under 13 years old
    o victim is 13-15 years old + is a blood affiliation to the defendant, lives in the defendant's household, or the defendant is in an authority position to the victim
    o multiple actors are involved and force/coercion was used to accomplish the sexual penetration or the victim is incapacitated (physically helpless, mentally incapacitated or mentally defective)
    o weapon involved
    o personal injury + force/coercion
    o personal injury + victim incapacitated
    o defendant/actor is in the process of committing another felony
    * 2nd Degree: (MCL 750.520c --- Felony --- up to 15 years + AIDS~HIV~STD testing) --- sexual contact with the genital area, groin, inner thigh, buttock or breast, AND any of the circumstances listed for 1st Degree CSC.
    * 3rd Degree: (MCL 750.520d --- Felony --- up to 15 years + AIDS~HIV~STD testing) --- sexual penetration and any of the following:
    o victim is 13-15 years old
    o force or coercion
    o victim incapacitated
    * 4th Degree: (MCL 750.520e --- High Court Misdemeanor --- up to 2 years in prison and/or $500.00 fine + AIDS~HIV~STD testing) --- sexual contact and any of the following:
    o force or coercion
    o victim incapacity
    o defendant works for the Department of Corrections and the victim is an inmate

    # All persons convicted of CSC must register as a sex offender.
    # No need for corroboration of victim's testimony or resistance by victim.
    # A person can be charged and convicted of CSC on a spouse.

    http://www.eatoncounty.org/prosecutor/define.htm#csc


    Do you need more or is that enough for you?
    Considering your lack of knowledge on the subject and your lack of sources/evidence, I have to questions whether or not you should be giving legal advice to people. After all, people come here looking for legal advice, not what some college kid "thinks."

    Did you look at contributing to delinquency of a minor? Truancy? A variety of other laws?

    Leave a comment:


  • demartian
    replied
    And overturned and re-enforced. It's one of those topics that could very well change daily.

    Leave a comment:


  • demartian
    replied
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act

    There are a bunch of acts that have been passed on the topic since the 1990's.

    Leave a comment:


  • demartian
    replied
    Originally posted by joec
    Is that a state law in Florida? Typically Federal jurisdiction comes into play when interstate crimes are involved. The O.P makes no mention of interstate movement,and makes no mention of sexual contact in state.
    JoeC
    It's Federal, but some states have adopted it as well, I think well over half of the states have so far. My own state did in 2006. The problem with phones and internet is that it sometimes goes interstate even when both parties are intrastate.

    Leave a comment:


  • mommyof4
    replied
    Originally posted by joec
    Is that a state law in Florida? Typically Federal jurisdiction comes into play when interstate crimes are involved. The O.P makes no mention of interstate movement,and makes no mention of sexual contact in state.
    JoeC
    Here is the FL statute:



    847.0135 Computer pornography; traveling to meet minor; penalties.--
    (1) SHORT TITLE.--This section shall be known and may be cited as the "Computer Pornography and Child Exploitation Prevention Act."
    (2) COMPUTER PORNOGRAPHY.--A person who:
    (a) Knowingly compiles, enters into, or transmits by use of computer;
    (b) Makes, prints, publishes, or reproduces by other computerized means;
    (c) Knowingly causes or allows to be entered into or transmitted by use of computer; or
    (d) Buys, sells, receives, exchanges, or disseminates,

    any notice, statement, or advertisement of any minor's name, telephone number, place of residence, physical characteristics, or other descriptive or identifying information for purposes of facilitating, encouraging, offering, or soliciting sexual conduct of or with any minor, or the visual depiction of such conduct, commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. The fact that an undercover operative or law enforcement officer was involved in the detection and investigation of an offense under this section shall not constitute a defense to a prosecution under this section.
    (3) CERTAIN USES OF COMPUTER SERVICES OR DEVICES PROHIBITED.--Any person who knowingly uses a computer online service, Internet service, local bulletin board service, or any other device capable of electronic data storage or transmission to:
    (a) Seduce, solicit, lure, or entice, or attempt to seduce, solicit, lure, or entice, a child or another person believed by the person to be a child, to commit any illegal act described in chapter 794, chapter 800, or chapter 827, or to otherwise engage in any unlawful sexual conduct with a child or with another person believed by the person to be a child; or
    (b) Solicit, lure, or entice, or attempt to solicit, lure, or entice a parent, legal guardian, or custodian of a child or a person believed to be a parent, legal guardian, or custodian of a child to consent to the participation of such child in any act described in chapter 794, chapter 800, or chapter 827, or to otherwise engage in any sexual conduct,

    commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. Any person who, in violating this subsection, misrepresents his or her age, commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. Each separate use of a computer online service, Internet service, local bulletin board service, or any other device capable of electronic data storage or transmission wherein an offense described in this section is committed may be charged as a separate offense.
    (4) TRAVELING TO MEET A MINOR.--Any person who travels any distance either within this state, to this state, or from this state by any means, who attempts to do so, or who causes another to do so or to attempt to do so for the purpose of engaging in any illegal act described in chapter 794, chapter 800, or chapter 827, or to otherwise engage in other unlawful sexual conduct with a child or with another person believed by the person to be a child after using a computer online service, Internet service, local bulletin board service, or any other device capable of electronic data storage or transmission to:
    (a) Seduce, solicit, lure, or entice or attempt to seduce, solicit, lure, or entice a child or another person believed by the person to be a child, to engage in any illegal act described in chapter 794, chapter 800, or chapter 827, or to otherwise engage in other unlawful sexual conduct with a child; or
    (b) Solicit, lure, or entice or attempt to solicit, lure, or entice a parent, legal guardian, or custodian of a child or a person believed to be a parent, legal guardian, or custodian of a child to consent to the participation of such child in any act described in chapter 794, chapter 800, or chapter 827, or to otherwise engage in any sexual conduct,

    commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (5) OWNERS OR OPERATORS OF COMPUTER SERVICES LIABLE.--It is unlawful for any owner or operator of a computer online service, Internet service, or local bulletin board service knowingly to permit a subscriber to use the service to commit a violation of this section. Any person who violates this section commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable by a fine not exceeding $2,000.
    (6) STATE CRIMINAL JURISDICTION.--A person is subject to prosecution in this state pursuant to chapter 910 for any conduct proscribed by this section which the person engages in, while either within or outside this state, if by such conduct the person commits a violation of this section involving a child residing in this state, a child's guardian, or another person believed by the person to be a child or a child's guardian residing in this state.
    (7) EFFECT OF PROSECUTION.--Prosecution of any person for an offense under this section shall not prohibit prosecution of that person in this state or another jurisdiction for a violation of any law of this state, including a law providing for greater penalties than prescribed in this section or any other crime punishing the sexual performance or the sexual exploitation of children. History.--s. 11, ch. 86-238; s. 213, ch. 91-224; s. 71, ch. 96-388; s. 3, ch. 2001-54; s. 5, ch. 2007-143.
    and:




    847.0138 Transmission of material harmful to minors to a minor by electronic device or equipment prohibited; penalties.--
    (1) For purposes of this section:
    (a) "Known by the defendant to be a minor" means that the defendant had actual knowledge or believed that the recipient of the communication was a minor.
    (b) "Transmit" means to send to a specific individual known by the defendant to be a minor via electronic mail.
    (2) Notwithstanding ss. 847.012 and 847.0133, any person in this state who knew or believed that he or she was transmitting an image, information, or data that is harmful to minors, as defined in s. 847.001, to a specific individual known by the defendant to be a minor in this state commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (3) Notwithstanding ss. 847.012 and 847.0133, any person in any jurisdiction other than this state who knew or believed that he or she was transmitting an image, information, or data that is harmful to minors, as defined in s. 847.001, to a specific individual known by the defendant to be a minor in this state commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    The provisions of this section do not apply to subscription-based transmissions such as list servers. History.--s. 5, ch. 2001-54.

    ...and here is the Michigan statute on this topic:

    750.145d Use of internet or computer system; prohibited communication; violation; penalty; order to reimburse state or local governmental unit; definitions.

    Sec. 145d.
    (1) A person shall not use the internet or a computer, computer program, computer network, or computer system to communicate with any person for the purpose of doing any of the following:
    (a) Committing, attempting to commit, conspiring to commit, or soliciting another person to commit conduct proscribed under section 145a, 145c, 157c, 349, 350, 520b, 520c, 520d, 520e, or 520g, or section 5 of 1978 PA 33, MCL 722.675, in which the victim or intended victim is a minor or is believed by that person to be a minor.
    (b) Committing, attempting to commit, conspiring to commit, or soliciting another person to commit conduct proscribed under section 411h or 411i.
    (c) Committing, attempting to commit, conspiring to commit, or soliciting another person to commit conduct proscribed under chapter XXXIII or section 327, 327a, 328, or 411a(2).
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a crime as follows:
    (a) If the underlying crime is a misdemeanor or a felony with a maximum term of imprisonment of less than 1 year, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.
    (b) If the underlying crime is a misdemeanor or a felony with a maximum term of imprisonment of 1 year or more but less than 2 years, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.
    (c) If the underlying crime is a misdemeanor or a felony with a maximum term of imprisonment of 2 years or more but less than 4 years, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.
    (d) If the underlying crime is a felony with a maximum term of imprisonment of 4 years or more but less than 10 years, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.
    (e) If the underlying crime is a felony punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of 10 years or more but less than 15 years, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 15 years or a fine of not more than $10,000.00, or both.
    (f) If the underlying crime is a felony punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of 15 years or more or for life, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 20 years or a fine of not more than $20,000.00, or both.
    (3) The court may order that a term of imprisonment imposed under this section be served consecutively to any term of imprisonment imposed for conviction of the underlying offense.
    (4) This section does not prohibit a person from being charged with, convicted of, or punished for any other violation of law committed by that person while violating or attempting to violate this section, including the underlying offense.
    (5) This section applies regardless of whether the person is convicted of committing, attempting to commit, conspiring to commit, or soliciting another person to commit the underlying offense.
    (6) A violation or attempted violation of this section occurs if the communication originates in this state, is intended to terminate in this state, or is intended to terminate with a person who is in this state.
    (7) A violation or attempted violation of this section may be prosecuted in any jurisdiction in which the communication originated or terminated.
    (8) The court may order a person convicted of violating this section to reimburse this state or a local unit of government of this state for expenses incurred in relation to the violation in the same manner that expenses may be ordered to be reimbursed under section 1f of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.1f.
    (9) As used in this section:
    (a) “Computer” means any connected, directly interoperable or interactive device, equipment, or facility that uses a computer program or other instructions to perform specific operations including logical, arithmetic, or memory functions with or on computer data or a computer program and that can store, retrieve, alter, or communicate the results of the operations to a person, computer program, computer, computer system, or computer network.
    (b) “Computer network” means the interconnection of hardwire or wireless communication lines with a computer through remote terminals, or a complex consisting of 2 or more interconnected computers.
    (c) “Computer program” means a series of internal or external instructions communicated in a form acceptable to a computer that directs the functioning of a computer, computer system, or computer network in a manner designed to provide or produce products or results from the computer, computer system, or computer network.
    (d) “Computer system” means a set of related, connected or unconnected, computer equipment, devices, software, or hardware.
    (e) “Device” includes, but is not limited to, an electronic, magnetic, electrochemical, biochemical, hydraulic, optical, or organic object that performs input, output, or storage functions by the manipulation of electronic, magnetic, or other impulses.
    (f) “Internet” means that term as defined in section 230 of title II of the communications act of 1934, chapter 652, 110 Stat. 137, 47 U.S.C. 230.
    (g) “Minor” means an individual who is less than 18 years of age.

    History: Add. 1999, Act 32, Eff. Aug. 1, 1999 ;-- Am. 1999, Act 235, Eff. Mar. 10, 2000 ;-- Am. 2000, Act 185, Eff. Sept. 18, 2000
    This was a very quick search (as I knew exactly what I was looking for and where to find the information). This does NOT take into account the other issues of possible contribution to the delinquency of a minor, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther10758
    replied
    The OP has not posted on this thread since Dec of last year. Its foolish to think he/she is still concerned with this now.

    Leave a comment:


  • MomofBoys
    replied
    Last one, I swear.

    This:

    Maybe where you're from, a mother can't give consent, but here in Michigan, it is REQUIRED that someone between the ages of 16 and 18 have parental consent in order to have sexual relations with an adult.
    Is not true.

    Once the minor has reached the AOC, they are NOT required to have parental consent to have sex. They can actually just DO it. That's what AOC means. That the minor is at an age where they can DECIDE for THEMSELVES. If they had to ask permission, then AOC would be moot. Whether the parents agree to it or not, the adult cannot be charged with statutory rape.

    The difference here is that if the parents want to pursue charges, they can petition to have their minor determined to be delinquent, and subsiquently have the adult charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. I'll use your link again:

    http://www.eatoncounty.org/prosecutor/define.htm#F

    Look under family court.

    But your assertion that in MI, minors aged 16 and 17 have to ask their parents for permission to have sex before they copulate with adults is false. They can just do it. There may or may not be legal consequences, but the 16 and 17 year old, because they have reached the AOC, don't have to ask Mom and Dad first.

    Leave a comment:


  • MomofBoys
    replied
    Also, a creative DA could pursue charges of child abuse.

    Say, the 18 year old has sex with the 16 year old. It is consensual, so he's off the hook for statutory rape. But then he dumps her. Or he tells her she was bad. Or he spreads nasty rumors about her. She threatens suicide, or just becomes depressed.

    Bam.... 1st or 2nd degree child abuse, because the adult knowingly caused serious mental harm on an unemancipated child under the age of 18.

    See your link
    http://www.eatoncounty.org/prosecutor/define.htm#C

    OR, he took a picture of his girlfriend in her skivvies in a seductive pose.

    Bam.... he's guilty of possession of child sexually abusive material. If he has it, it's a misdemeanor. If he showed it to his buddies, it's a felony. If he took the picture, it's a felony with up to 20 years behind bars.

    Again, see your link
    http://www.eatoncounty.org/prosecutor/define.htm#C

    These are MI laws, as you posted.

    It's just not so simple as "you can do what you want at 16." That's why you were asked not to give uninformed opinions. Like I said, your facts are NOT WRONG, they are INCOMPLETE. The 18 year old in this scenerio does not have the ability to pick and choose which laws he THINKS he may or may not be breaking.
    Last edited by MomofBoys; 12-14-2007, 10:16 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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