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  • U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

    Even the most gullible and stupidest people abroad no longer believe that
    we went to Iraq to promote democracy.

    Some people in these newsgroups are more hardheaded than that though.
    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

    U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad
    Moral High Ground Lost, Experts Say

    By Robin Wright
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Friday, May 7, 2004; Page A26

    The United States faces the prospect of a severe and enduring backlash
    not just in the Middle East but also among strategic allies, putting
    in question the Bush administration's ability to make serious headway
    on a range of foreign policy goals for the rest of this presidential
    term, according to U.S. officials and foreign policy experts.

    The White House damage-control campaign, including the long-awaited
    apology from President Bush yesterday, is likely to have only limited,
    if any, success in the near term, administration officials said
    yesterday.

    The White House is so gloomy about the repercussions that senior
    adviser Karl Rove suggested this week that the consequences of the
    graphic photographs documenting the U.S. abuse of Iraqi detainees are
    so enormous that it will take decades for the United States to
    recover, according to a Bush adviser.

    "It's a blinding glimpse of the obvious to say we're in a hole,"
    conceded Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage. He said the
    backlash in Europe is even greater than in the 22-nation Arab world.

    "For many of our European friends, what they saw on those horrible
    pictures is tantamount to torture, and there are very strong views
    about that," he said yesterday on CNN's "Paula Zahn Now" show. "In the
    Arab world, there is general dismay and disgust, but in some places we
    were not real popular to start with. So I think I'm actually seeing a
    European reaction quite strong -- quite a bit stronger."

    In public and private communications, European officials have become
    critical or disdainful of the United States. France's foreign ministry
    said in a statement that the abuse is "totally unacceptable" and, if
    confirmed, "constitute clear and unacceptable violations of
    international conventions."

    The issue for Arabs and other allies extends beyond the treatment of
    detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison, which is seen as a metaphor for a
    stubborn and often defiant U.S. foreign policy under the Bush
    administration.

    Washington first justified military intervention to oust Saddam
    Hussein, without U.N. support, by asserting that Iraq's weapons of
    mass destruction were a real and imminent threat -- but then found
    none.

    The administration has since shifted gears, arguing that its primary
    goal has instead been to create a democracy that would inspire Arabs
    and the wider Islamic world -- only to delay for several months
    acknowledgement or action on the chronic abuse of Iraqi detainees,
    analysts note.

    As a result, the United States has lost the moral high ground in Iraq,
    putting its credibility on the line. Now, its broader goals for the
    region -- including an ambitious project to promote democracy, set to
    be unveiled by Bush at three international summits next month -- are
    in jeopardy, foreign policy and Middle East analysts say.

    "The mask of civility has fallen. It used to be that Americans just
    don't do that. Now you hear Arabs say, 'Don't lecture us about
    democracy and respect for human rights,' " said Raghida Dergham,
    senior diplomatic correspondent for the London-based al Hayat
    newspaper. "No quick fix is going to reverse the current antagonism
    toward American policies."

    The pictures -- and the global reaction -- will also complicate
    efforts by U.S. institutions, including private humanitarian and human
    rights groups, to promote greater respect for democratic reforms,
    added Mark Schneider, vice president of International Crisis Group.

    Bush's attempt to invoke historic U.S. values to counter the
    international fallout is unlikely to ameliorate the foreign
    backlash. "Bush's moral confidence in the ultimate goodness of
    American culture and justice will not convince people who are hopping
    mad today, and who are chronically cynical about the words of
    politicians and leaders," said Ellen Laipson, former vice chairman of
    the National Intelligence Council and now president of the Stimson
    Center, a foreign policy think tank.

    The tragic irony, Arab and foreign policy analysts note, is that the
    third justification for the intervention in Iraq was the war on
    terrorism -- which they say the pictures of the abuse of Iraqi
    detainees will instead fuel.

    "If you want recruitment tools, these are the best anyone could
    imagine. They are a big blow and a stimulant to spur people to act
    against the United States. The real kicker for terrorism is indignity
    and humiliation, and that's what these pictures are about," said
    Moises Naim, editor of Foreign Policy magazine.

    The haunting pictures will serve as "manna from heaven" for al Qaeda
    and other extremist groups, increasing the dangers to U.S. national
    security, said Hisham Melham, Washington correspondent for al-Arabiya,
    an Arab television network.

    The United States, for now, may also find allies reluctant to engage
    on other priorities.

    "There are a slew of issues -- from drug trafficking and the
    environment -- that the United States won't make much progress on by
    acting alone. It needs the help of international countries, and it's
    going to be very hard for many politicians, not only Muslims, to be a
    friend of the United States," Naim said.

    State Department officials are sanguine about the need for additional
    and dramatic overtures. "We know there is outrage and it's going to be
    around for a long time -- until it's clear we've cleaned it up and it
    will never happen again. We have to make sure we meet our promises to
    do that," said a senior State Department official who spoke on the
    condition of anonymity.

    Yet Weekly Standard Editor William Kristol, who once worked for Vice
    President Dan Quayle, suggested that Washington will be able to turn
    around global public opinion by showing that abuse is not tolerated.

    "It's terrible and it's made life difficult for awhile," Kristol
    said. "But if it becomes clear that this is the exception and [the
    troops involved] are held accountable, it could end up being an
    impressive demonstration to countries where torture is routine."

    Staff writers Dan Balz and Glenn Kessler contributed to this report.

    2004 The Washington Post Company

  • #2
    U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

    Ignoramus5882 said...

    (misc.survivalism snipped for obvious lack of connection to ASD or ASM)
    Some people in these newsgroups are more hardheaded than that though.
    Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce
    newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years.

    You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to
    debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them
    instead and have fun.

    Don't emulate Ronn the prisoner...



    Casey

    "I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people
    who annoy me." - Fred Allen

    Comment


    • #3
      U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

      Ignoramus5882 said...

      (misc.survivalism snipped for obvious lack of connection to ASD or ASM)
      Some people in these newsgroups are more hardheaded than that though.
      Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce
      newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years.

      You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to
      debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them
      instead and have fun.

      Don't emulate Ronn the prisoner...



      Casey

      "I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people
      who annoy me." - Fred Allen

      Comment


      • #4
        U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

        I think it's his Russian upbringing. I had a roommate like that that
        would look to any opportunity to give the Good Ol' U.S. of A. a black-eye or
        come up with absolute malarkey to prove we're not worthy of whatever the
        hell they think.
        Just my opinion and observation...but I'm sticking to it.

        "Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
        news:[email protected]
        Ignoramus5882 said... (misc.survivalism snipped for obvious lack of connection to ASD or ASM)
        Some people in these newsgroups are more hardheaded than that though.
        Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years. You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them instead and have fun. Don't emulate Ronn the prisoner... Casey "I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me." - Fred Allen

        Comment


        • #5
          U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

          I think it's his Russian upbringing. I had a roommate like that that
          would look to any opportunity to give the Good Ol' U.S. of A. a black-eye or
          come up with absolute malarkey to prove we're not worthy of whatever the
          hell they think.
          Just my opinion and observation...but I'm sticking to it.

          "Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
          news:[email protected]
          Ignoramus5882 said... (misc.survivalism snipped for obvious lack of connection to ASD or ASM)
          Some people in these newsgroups are more hardheaded than that though.
          Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years. You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them instead and have fun. Don't emulate Ronn the prisoner... Casey "I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me." - Fred Allen

          Comment


          • #6
            U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

            > Casey wrote:
            Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years. You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them instead and have fun. Don't emulate Ronn the prisoner...
            I don't really have a problem with an occasional thing, if it's someone
            who is part of the "community", and something is important to them.
            But, I stress *occasional*. I do believe that in groups like this we
            do become close-knit to a degree and a little OT stuff every now and
            then is fine. Just keep it in check.

            Self-discipline. Now, there's a concept.

            --
            Are all women psychotic?... or just the ones I meet?

            Comment


            • #7
              U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

              > Casey wrote:
              Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years. You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them instead and have fun. Don't emulate Ronn the prisoner...
              I don't really have a problem with an occasional thing, if it's someone
              who is part of the "community", and something is important to them.
              But, I stress *occasional*. I do believe that in groups like this we
              do become close-knit to a degree and a little OT stuff every now and
              then is fine. Just keep it in check.

              Self-discipline. Now, there's a concept.

              --
              Are all women psychotic?... or just the ones I meet?

              Comment


              • #8
                U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad



                Ignoramus5882 wrote:
                Even the most gullible and stupidest people abroad no longer believe that we went to Iraq to promote democracy.
                "It's terrible and it's made life difficult for awhile," Kristol said. "But if it becomes clear that this is the exception and [the troops involved] are held accountable, it could end up being an impressive demonstration to countries where torture is routine."
                He is right with the " if ".
                Staff writers Dan Balz and Glenn Kessler contributed to this report. 2004 The Washington Post Company
                Take Action Now!
                From Abu Ghraib to Latin America: Map of U.S. Pattern of Abuse Grows
                Torture of Iraqi Soldiers Indicative of Ongoing Policy of Systematic and
                Illegal Abuse

                Recent reports of the torture of Iraqi detainees at the Abu Ghraib
                military prison near Baghdad are part of a larger pattern of abuse and
                torture at the hands of U.S. soldiers, U.S.-trained soliders, independent
                contractors and intelligence agents around the world. In fact, U.S. Army
                intelligence manuals advocating torture techniques and how to circumvent
                laws on due process, arrest and detention were used for at least a decade
                to train Latin American soldiers at the U.S. Armys School of the
                Americas, renamed in 2001 the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security
                Cooperation or WHINSEC.

                We see a consistent pattern of the Pentagon claiming to work for
                democracy, says Fr. Roy Bourgeois, founder of SOA Watch, while in their
                prisons and training centers, reports of torture and human rights abuses
                continue to surface.

                Read the rest of the article at www.SOAW.org
                -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Weve been contacted by many SOA Watch activists this week asking what we
                can all be doing to make the connections betweeen torture in Iraq and
                torture in Latin America. Below are a few suggestions of actions you can
                take today:

                - Write a letter to the editor of your local paper. For a sample letter,
                go to http://www.soaw.org/new/article.php?id=266.
                - Call in to radio talk shows.
                - Visit http://www.soaw.org/new/article.php?id=261 for more media tips.
                - Write a letter to your Representative asking them to sign on to HR 1258.

                -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                For more info, check out these articles and statements:

                CIA connections from Iraq to Latin America:
                Inside the Cells of Abu Ghraib by Kurt Nimmo
                http://www.soaw.org/new/newswire_detail.php?id=424

                This Guardian article mentions the training manuals used at the SOA:
                Torture by the Book by Vikram Dodd
                http://www.soaw.org/new/newswire_detail.php?id=423

                The Blue Triangle Network, a coalition formed after 9-11 that works
                against the deportation, racial profiling and repression of Muslim, Arab
                and South Asian immigrants, released a statement that mentions the
                training at the SOA. Read it here:
                http://www.soaw.org/new/article.php?id=771.

                For more article listings, visit www.SOAW.org

                Comment


                • #9
                  U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad



                  Ignoramus5882 wrote:
                  Even the most gullible and stupidest people abroad no longer believe that we went to Iraq to promote democracy.
                  "It's terrible and it's made life difficult for awhile," Kristol said. "But if it becomes clear that this is the exception and [the troops involved] are held accountable, it could end up being an impressive demonstration to countries where torture is routine."
                  He is right with the " if ".
                  Staff writers Dan Balz and Glenn Kessler contributed to this report. 2004 The Washington Post Company
                  Take Action Now!
                  From Abu Ghraib to Latin America: Map of U.S. Pattern of Abuse Grows
                  Torture of Iraqi Soldiers Indicative of Ongoing Policy of Systematic and
                  Illegal Abuse

                  Recent reports of the torture of Iraqi detainees at the Abu Ghraib
                  military prison near Baghdad are part of a larger pattern of abuse and
                  torture at the hands of U.S. soldiers, U.S.-trained soliders, independent
                  contractors and intelligence agents around the world. In fact, U.S. Army
                  intelligence manuals advocating torture techniques and how to circumvent
                  laws on due process, arrest and detention were used for at least a decade
                  to train Latin American soldiers at the U.S. Armys School of the
                  Americas, renamed in 2001 the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security
                  Cooperation or WHINSEC.

                  We see a consistent pattern of the Pentagon claiming to work for
                  democracy, says Fr. Roy Bourgeois, founder of SOA Watch, while in their
                  prisons and training centers, reports of torture and human rights abuses
                  continue to surface.

                  Read the rest of the article at www.SOAW.org
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Weve been contacted by many SOA Watch activists this week asking what we
                  can all be doing to make the connections betweeen torture in Iraq and
                  torture in Latin America. Below are a few suggestions of actions you can
                  take today:

                  - Write a letter to the editor of your local paper. For a sample letter,
                  go to http://www.soaw.org/new/article.php?id=266.
                  - Call in to radio talk shows.
                  - Visit http://www.soaw.org/new/article.php?id=261 for more media tips.
                  - Write a letter to your Representative asking them to sign on to HR 1258.

                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  For more info, check out these articles and statements:

                  CIA connections from Iraq to Latin America:
                  Inside the Cells of Abu Ghraib by Kurt Nimmo
                  http://www.soaw.org/new/newswire_detail.php?id=424

                  This Guardian article mentions the training manuals used at the SOA:
                  Torture by the Book by Vikram Dodd
                  http://www.soaw.org/new/newswire_detail.php?id=423

                  The Blue Triangle Network, a coalition formed after 9-11 that works
                  against the deportation, racial profiling and repression of Muslim, Arab
                  and South Asian immigrants, released a statement that mentions the
                  training at the SOA. Read it here:
                  http://www.soaw.org/new/article.php?id=771.

                  For more article listings, visit www.SOAW.org

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

                    "Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                    news:[email protected]
                    Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years. You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them instead and have fun.
                    I am agreeing more with Igor on this over time.
                    Anyone here interested can see my analysis,
                    posted to Igor on misc.survivalism under message ID
                    [email protected] net
                    Your choice.

                    (Tony, this has my wife very disturbed,
                    and speculating about the 3rd Fatima prophecy.
                    I'm curious what you can relate rearding this.)
                    --
                    Tsam


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

                      "Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                      news:[email protected]
                      Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years. You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them instead and have fun.
                      I am agreeing more with Igor on this over time.
                      Anyone here interested can see my analysis,
                      posted to Igor on misc.survivalism under message ID
                      [email protected] net
                      Your choice.

                      (Tony, this has my wife very disturbed,
                      and speculating about the 3rd Fatima prophecy.
                      I'm curious what you can relate rearding this.)
                      --
                      Tsam


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

                        In article <[email protected] .net>, Tsam Nami wrote:
                        "Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                        Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years. You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them instead and have fun.
                        I am agreeing more with Igor on this over time.
                        I am happy to hear that.
                        Anyone here interested can see my analysis, posted to Igor on misc.survivalism under message ID [email protected] net Your choice.
                        I could not find that message id in google.
                        (Tony, this has my wife very disturbed, and speculating about the 3rd Fatima prophecy. I'm curious what you can relate rearding this.)

                        --
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        @ @ @ Please forgive my typos as my right hand is injured. @ @ @
                        char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}"; main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
                        "It's never too late to have a happy childhood."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

                          In article <[email protected] .net>, Tsam Nami wrote:
                          "Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                          Some are so hardheaded they keep posting political BS in a divorce newsgroup and a marriage newsgroup... for years. You have no monopoly on the truth. There's plenty of NG's that love to debate this type of stuff to death. Announce your opinions to them instead and have fun.
                          I am agreeing more with Igor on this over time.
                          I am happy to hear that.
                          Anyone here interested can see my analysis, posted to Igor on misc.survivalism under message ID [email protected] net Your choice.
                          I could not find that message id in google.
                          (Tony, this has my wife very disturbed, and speculating about the 3rd Fatima prophecy. I'm curious what you can relate rearding this.)

                          --
                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          @ @ @ Please forgive my typos as my right hand is injured. @ @ @
                          char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}"; main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
                          "It's never too late to have a happy childhood."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

                            Xenos the elder <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
                            Ignoramus5882 wrote:
                            Even the most gullible and stupidest people abroad no longer believe that we went to Iraq to promote democracy. "It's terrible and it's made life difficult for awhile," Kristol said. "But if it becomes clear that this is the exception and [the troops involved] are held accountable, it could end up being an impressive demonstration to countries where torture is routine."
                            He is right with the " if ".
                            Staff writers Dan Balz and Glenn Kessler contributed to this report. 2004 The Washington Post Company
                            Take Action Now!
                            From Abu Ghraib to Latin America: Map of U.S. Pattern of Abuse Grows
                            Torture of Iraqi Soldiers Indicative of Ongoing Policy of Systematic and Illegal Abuse Recent reports of the torture of Iraqi detainees at the Abu Ghraib military prison near Baghdad are part of a larger pattern of abuse and torture at the hands of U.S. soldiers, U.S.-trained soliders, independent contractors and intelligence agents around the world.
                            I guess you forgot that only minutes, hours and days before the
                            prisoners were detained, they were insurgents trying to kill
                            Americans, other coalition forces, and innocent, non-combattant
                            Iraquis. They are not peaceful prisoners only interested in 3 hots
                            and a cot. They fight with the prison guards, and if they could,
                            would kill them. They try to escape so that they can kill more
                            Americans, other coalition forces, and innocent Iraquis.

                            As terrorist insurgents, they are not protected by the Geneva
                            Convention. Too bad, huh?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad

                              Xenos the elder <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
                              Ignoramus5882 wrote:
                              Even the most gullible and stupidest people abroad no longer believe that we went to Iraq to promote democracy. "It's terrible and it's made life difficult for awhile," Kristol said. "But if it becomes clear that this is the exception and [the troops involved] are held accountable, it could end up being an impressive demonstration to countries where torture is routine."
                              He is right with the " if ".
                              Staff writers Dan Balz and Glenn Kessler contributed to this report. 2004 The Washington Post Company
                              Take Action Now!
                              From Abu Ghraib to Latin America: Map of U.S. Pattern of Abuse Grows
                              Torture of Iraqi Soldiers Indicative of Ongoing Policy of Systematic and Illegal Abuse Recent reports of the torture of Iraqi detainees at the Abu Ghraib military prison near Baghdad are part of a larger pattern of abuse and torture at the hands of U.S. soldiers, U.S.-trained soliders, independent contractors and intelligence agents around the world.
                              I guess you forgot that only minutes, hours and days before the
                              prisoners were detained, they were insurgents trying to kill
                              Americans, other coalition forces, and innocent, non-combattant
                              Iraquis. They are not peaceful prisoners only interested in 3 hots
                              and a cot. They fight with the prison guards, and if they could,
                              would kill them. They try to escape so that they can kill more
                              Americans, other coalition forces, and innocent Iraquis.

                              As terrorist insurgents, they are not protected by the Geneva
                              Convention. Too bad, huh?

                              Comment

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