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  • Safety in Relationships

    "WhansaMi" <[email protected]> writes:
    "Doug Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]_s51...
    [email protected] (WhansaMi) writes:
    Urf wrote: >Tony, I did not intend to anger you, only present a counter point to
    your
    >intransigence. >You should note that on the very first line I indicated that I did not
    think
    >that these >problems would befall you. I only asked a hypothetical question to
    elicit
    >your views >on the subject. I got more than I bargained for. I apologize if the
    question
    >hit a sore >spot. I got the feeling you were baiting him, when I read your response. It certainly looked that way. I got a similar feeling about your question to "those of you who are
    responding
    to this thread". I think you might want to take a closer look at *your* motivations. But really Sheila, by writing (as both you and Tony did, though you later modified) that you would not support a child of your who chose to have a baby, you invite a certain amount of confrontation.
    If I were a pacificist (which I'm not) and said on here that I would not support a child of mine who decided to do ROTC because I thought it was a poor (and unethical) decision, it likely would not have been taken to mean that I would cut off food and water. It would be taken as I meant it --- that this activity would be on his/her own, with him or her bearing the cost, and the responsibility for all that it entails.
    But then you would be talking about an adult who no longer required
    your support.
    I don't care if people disagree with me. I don't care if people voice that opinion. I do think it is wrong to say something (directly or indirectly) that is meant to be a major cut, and then throw it back at the other person when they react negatively, stating, "Oh... that must be a sore spot. Obviously, there is some truth in what I am saying."
    OK.
    I was trying to think of a good analogy last night, and I think I thought of one. If anyone here watches "Last Comic Standing", they'll get the reference. The last comic kicked off the show was Ant. Ant is gay. Ant is also an ***. Now, imagine we were talking about it, and I was saying I'm glad I don't have to watch Ant anymore, that I think he is a major ***. Someone else comes in and says, "You are a bigot. You hate gay people." I'd be pissed.
    I don't see the analogy. Both you and Tony started out with extreme
    statements (no financial support for teen children who have babies).
    Extreme statements are fun to make, but they are calculated to get
    reactions. You got reactions.
    snip of the rest, including personal attack.

    Comment


    • Safety in Relationships

      Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
      snip
      And our buddy Doug brought up what I said a week ago after clarifying it in an entire thread that he probably pretended he didn't read to build a straw man he could joust. Pathetic.
      I don't think you clarified it anywhere Tony. Care to point out where?

      Unless you believe saying "I wouldn't financially support her, but I
      would let her stay in the house" is clear.

      Comment


      • Safety in Relationships

        "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
        WhansaMi wrote:
        WhansaMi wrote:> Urf wrote:>>> Tony, I did not intend to anger you, only present a counter point to
        your
        >> intransigence.>> You should note that on the very first line I indicated that I did not>> think that these>> problems would befall you. I only asked a hypothetical question to
        elicit
        >> your views>> on the subject. I got more than I bargained for. I apologize if the>> question hit a sore>> spot.>>> I got the feeling you were baiting him, when I read your response. It> certainly looked that way.>> I got a similar feeling about your question to "those of you who are> responding to this thread". I think you might want to take a closer
        look at
        > *your* motivations.>> Sheila But what would those be? (I don't get it). Her baited, and then threw out the "I can't imagine what you are getting
        so
        upset about.... you might want to see if that hit too close to home, and
        why
        you got so upset about that" line. I hate that. You **aim** to get
        someone
        riled (in this case, with an thinly veiled accusation that Tony must not
        care
        too much about his relationship with his daughter) and then act as if it
        has
        some profound meaning when someone takes the bait. There is nothing
        profound
        there. Now, I think Tony should have seen the trap, and not stepped in it (as I
        made
        the conscious effort to do earlier), but that is a different issue. :-) Sheila
        You've lost me. Are you saying Urf was baiting Tony, or Tony was baiting Urf, or something like that? I can't even figure out what the "Her baited and then threw out" line means above (or who this is referring to). Maybe I need a bit more coffee.
        Bill...regardless of whether or not anyone baited anyone, there is a
        common theme that I'm starting to see. When Tony does not like what
        someone else said, feels or thinks, he'll talk calmly up to a point.
        Then he blows off steam, attacks the poster and acts like Geraldine
        (Flip Wilson) "the devil made me do it."

        We are allegedly adults in this newsgroup. Calling someone a dumbass
        is not adult-like. Nor Christian-like. Whether provoked or not. If
        we're having a conversation about what we're trying to teach our
        children and then act like a child during the conversation, well, I
        find that rather ironic.

        Comment


        • Safety in Relationships


          "WhansaMi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
          news:[email protected]
          WhansaMi wrote:
          > [email protected] (WhansaMi) writes:>>>>>> Tony hasn't made a distinction at all, as far as I know.>>>>>>>> Actually, I believe he did too.>>>>>> Really? What did he say?>>>>>> Basically, that an adult child would be on their own, but a minor
          would
          >> stay at home, if I recall correctly.>> Actually, I asked him if I meant he wouldn't financially support a> minor daughter who had a child.>> He said that he wouldn't.>> He simultaneously said he wouldn't kick her out of the house though,> so I don't really know what he means. Quite possibly the same thing I mean: I would expect my daughter to go
          to
          school and work part-time. Money she got from work would go toward supporting herself and the baby. Money from the baby's father would
          go
          for
          their support, too.
          This sounds pretty good, Sheila. Really. But I can see a potentialproblem:Let's just suppose, though, that that is not enough money to pay for thebabysitting while she is in school (which might be true). Then who
          takes
          care of the kid when she is in school? Or how is that going to be paidfor? Well, I see a couple of potential answers: (1) To answer the greater issue of money (not just as it pertains to
          school
          hours and child care), it is highly unlikely that what she made working part-time (likely in a minimum wage job) would cover her expenses. I
          said, "as
          closely approximating what life would be like if she were on her own" (or something like that... I'm not googling for the exact quote). So, of
          course, I
          would, necessarily be contributing some to **her** upkeep. But, from her perspective, she would be expected to bring in as much as she could, and
          she
          would not be using it as discretionary funds -- it would all be upkeep for
          the
          baby, because, as you point out, she will not have any beyond that. It is
          my
          responsibility to support her..... I would not consider it my
          responsibility to
          support her baby. If she made those decisions, that would be her responsibility. (2) With regard to school and daycare, there are schools for mothers,
          which
          allow babies. She would likely go to one of those. Sheila she attends a school for mothers (most metropolitan areas have one,
          including
          ours).
          If you 16 year old daughter wanted to move out on her own, would that be ok?

          No pregnancy, no money or job, just a whim. She knows these people that have
          an apartment somewhere and she is invited to move in with them. Would you
          be a responsible parent if you just let her go?

          I ask because a similar situation happened to me and I had to handle it.
          How would you handle it?


          Comment


          • Safety in Relationships

            Tai <[email protected]> wrote:
            Mind you, I could see me using Tracey's lecture and following through on it.
            I liked Tracey's lecture in the sense of letting a kid know what kind of
            life a teenaged parent could expect.

            Comment


            • Safety in Relationships

              >> >WhansaMi wrote:
              >> [email protected] (WhansaMi) writes:>>>>>>>> Tony hasn't made a distinction at all, as far as I know.>>>>>>>>>> Actually, I believe he did too.>>>>>>>> Really? What did he say?>>>>>>>>> Basically, that an adult child would be on their own, but a minorwould
              >>> stay at home, if I recall correctly.>>>> Actually, I asked him if I meant he wouldn't financially support a>> minor daughter who had a child.>>>> He said that he wouldn't.>>>> He simultaneously said he wouldn't kick her out of the house though,>> so I don't really know what he means.>> Quite possibly the same thing I mean: I would expect my daughter to go
              to
              > school and work part-time. Money she got from work would go toward> supporting herself and the baby. Money from the baby's father would
              go
              for> their support, too.This sounds pretty good, Sheila. Really. But I can see a potentialproblem:Let's just suppose, though, that that is not enough money to pay for thebabysitting while she is in school (which might be true). Then who
              takes
              care of the kid when she is in school? Or how is that going to be paidfor? Well, I see a couple of potential answers: (1) To answer the greater issue of money (not just as it pertains to
              school
              hours and child care), it is highly unlikely that what she made working part-time (likely in a minimum wage job) would cover her expenses. I
              said, "as
              closely approximating what life would be like if she were on her own" (or something like that... I'm not googling for the exact quote). So, of
              course, I
              would, necessarily be contributing some to **her** upkeep. But, from her perspective, she would be expected to bring in as much as she could, and
              she
              would not be using it as discretionary funds -- it would all be upkeep for
              the
              baby, because, as you point out, she will not have any beyond that. It is
              my
              responsibility to support her..... I would not consider it my
              responsibility to
              support her baby. If she made those decisions, that would be her responsibility. (2) With regard to school and daycare, there are schools for mothers,
              which
              allow babies. She would likely go to one of those. Sheila she attends a school for mothers (most metropolitan areas have one,
              including
              ours).
              If you 16 year old daughter wanted to move out on her own, would that be ok?No pregnancy, no money or job, just a whim. She knows these people that havean apartment somewhere and she is invited to move in with them. Would yoube a responsible parent if you just let her go?I ask because a similar situation happened to me and I had to handle it.How would you handle it?
              What in the world does this have to do with the matter at hand?

              Sheila

              Comment


              • Safety in Relationships

                Caren <[email protected]> wrote:
                Planned Parenthood is not an abortion mill. It is a place where responsible women and men go to prevent pregnancy. They also perform abortions, but that is hardly the only service provided.
                Yes. I went to Planned Parenthood for a while because it was the
                cheapest place to get my pills when I didn't have insurance.

                Comment


                • Safety in Relationships

                  urf <[email protected]> wrote:
                  f you 16 year old daughter wanted to move out on her own, would that be ok? No pregnancy, no money or job, just a whim. She knows these people that have an apartment somewhere and she is invited to move in with them. Would you be a responsible parent if you just let her go? I ask because a similar situation happened to me and I had to handle it. How would you handle it?
                  My first instinct is to say no, but then I remember myself as a
                  teenager, and I look at my soon-to-be teenagers, and I realize that
                  deciding what you will or won't allow your teenagers to do is often
                  wishful thinking. You can't lock them up or follow them around, so many
                  things just aren't up to you.

                  One of my sisters-in-law ran away and lived on the streets when she was
                  a teenager. Scared her family half to death. But they couldn't stop
                  her.

                  Comment


                  • Safety in Relationships

                    WhansaMi <[email protected]> wrote:
                    You **aim** to get someone riled (in this case, with an thinly veiled accusation that Tony must not care too much about his relationship with his daughter) and then act as if it has some profound meaning when someone takes the bait.
                    I did not see that as what Urf was doing (he can correct me if I'm
                    wrong). I though he was trying to point out that Tony's being such a
                    hard *** could permanently harm his relationship with his daughter, and
                    that he might not be fully realizing that.

                    That is not at all the same as not caring about his daughter. It's just
                    ignorance of how human relationships play out. Children do not easily
                    forgive any perceived abandonment by their parents, whatever the
                    intention behind it might have been.

                    Comment


                    • Safety in Relationships


                      "WhansaMi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                      news:[email protected]
                      >WhansaMi wrote: >>> [email protected] (WhansaMi) writes: >>> >>>>>>> Tony hasn't made a distinction at all, as far as I know. >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually, I believe he did too. >>>>> >>>>> Really? What did he say? >>>> >>>> >>>> Basically, that an adult child would be on their own, but a minorwould
                      >>>> stay at home, if I recall correctly. >>> >>> Actually, I asked him if I meant he wouldn't financially support a >>> minor daughter who had a child. >>> >>> He said that he wouldn't. >>> >>> He simultaneously said he wouldn't kick her out of the house
                      though,
                      >>> so I don't really know what he means. >> >> Quite possibly the same thing I mean: I would expect my daughter to
                      go
                      to
                      >> school and work part-time. Money she got from work would go toward >> supporting herself and the baby. Money from the baby's father
                      would
                      go
                      >for >> their support, too. > >This sounds pretty good, Sheila. Really. But I can see a
                      potential
                      >problem: > >Let's just suppose, though, that that is not enough money to pay for
                      the
                      >babysitting while she is in school (which might be true). Then whotakes
                      >care of the kid when she is in school? Or how is that going to be
                      paid
                      >for? Well, I see a couple of potential answers: (1) To answer the greater issue of money (not just as it pertains toschool
                      hours and child care), it is highly unlikely that what she made working part-time (likely in a minimum wage job) would cover her expenses. I
                      said, "as
                      closely approximating what life would be like if she were on her own"
                      (or
                      something like that... I'm not googling for the exact quote). So, ofcourse, I
                      would, necessarily be contributing some to **her** upkeep. But, from
                      her
                      perspective, she would be expected to bring in as much as she could,
                      and
                      she
                      would not be using it as discretionary funds -- it would all be upkeep
                      for
                      the
                      baby, because, as you point out, she will not have any beyond that. It
                      is
                      my
                      responsibility to support her..... I would not consider it my
                      responsibility to
                      support her baby. If she made those decisions, that would be her responsibility. (2) With regard to school and daycare, there are schools for mothers,
                      which
                      allow babies. She would likely go to one of those. Sheila she attends a school for mothers (most metropolitan areas have one,
                      including
                      ours).
                      If you 16 year old daughter wanted to move out on her own, would that be
                      ok?
                      No pregnancy, no money or job, just a whim. She knows these people that
                      have
                      an apartment somewhere and she is invited to move in with them. Would yoube a responsible parent if you just let her go?I ask because a similar situation happened to me and I had to handle it.How would you handle it? What in the world does this have to do with the matter at hand? Sheila
                      Just this, if someone would put his teenager out for being pregnant by her
                      own actions and responsibility, would he also allow her to move out
                      voluntarily
                      on her own responsibility?

                      Don't get me wrong Shelia. I'm sure that you are a good mother with good
                      instincts for raising your children. I have no doubt that your children will
                      be fine and never encounter these hypothetical circumstances. (I say
                      that about Tony too)

                      I'm looking for some consistency of position. One point is enforcing a teens
                      responsibility a person. A philosophy of "you made your bed" sounds good
                      but
                      I think there are limitations to what we as parents should do to enforce our
                      personal philosophies on our children.

                      I am asking if you trust your child to make this kind of choice.


                      Comment


                      • Safety in Relationships

                        On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:34:36 -0400, glunk
                        <[email protected]> wrote:

                        Stephanie, that you???

                        <Snip>
                        Actually, the parents don't have to be resonsible for their children and grandchildren. DSHS takes care of medical, WIC takes care of formula, diapers and food stamps take care of food. Many agencies provide homes for young parents with their baby. Really? I could give up my child right now and let someone else take care of them? (Sure if I give up my parental "rights") I do not understand this last paragraph. What are you getting at, that there really are not services available for young mothers? What does that have to do with parental rights? It sounds like you are talking about adoption, and
                        The implication was that I wasn't responsible for my child that I could
                        just turn her out and the state would take care of her. I had thought I
                        was responsible for my child, and I could be arrested for abandonment. I
                        guess this isn't the case.
                        that is not what Caren is talking about at all. Though, I would not want my daughter to have to rely on WIC and other social services to raise her children. Anyone heard the lovely news out of Washington about how the republicans are trashing Section 8 in order to fund more wars (editorial all mine).
                        Sounds like a plan to me. It was probably in the Washingtong Post, that
                        bastion of conservative thought.
                        Incidentally, why are we always talking about young mothers. Where do the young fathers go? In this society, fathers have no responsibility. They just drop in, demand an abortion, and when they don't get their way, they walk away. Oh wait. I just sounded way too much like Bill. Sorry.
                        Young fathers get to pay for their children regardless of what the
                        decision the young mother made. Don't make me invoke the name of 4ndre.
                        He might show up! :P

                        -Tony

                        --
                        "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
                        to fertilize your lawn!"
                        Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
                        Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

                        Comment


                        • Safety in Relationships

                          "urf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                          news:[email protected]
                          Don't get me wrong Shelia. I'm sure that you are a good mother with good instincts for raising your children. I have no doubt that your children
                          will
                          be fine and never encounter these hypothetical circumstances. (I say that about Tony too) I'm looking for some consistency of position. One point is enforcing a
                          teens
                          responsibility a person. A philosophy of "you made your bed" sounds good but I think there are limitations to what we as parents should do to enforce
                          our
                          personal philosophies on our children.
                          You will not find consistency. I truly doubt the hard-liners will truly be
                          hard line when it comes right down to it. I cannot speak from personal
                          experience (as I have no children), but I've known a few people who seemed
                          hard-line and then the next year were making an apartment in the basement
                          for pregnant 17 y/o daughter / daughter and child after the breakup / son
                          and girlfriend w/ baby / etc etc. Nobody can truly say until it really
                          happens to them.

                          I mean, what if the son/daughter proves completely incompetent and runs off
                          with the biker gang in a drug-induced fit? There's a child crying on the
                          couch.... does grandparent call adoption services and be done with it? Who
                          would really do that? I'm not a parent (and don't really like little kids)
                          but I couldn't even do that to my niece, let alone my grandchild.


                          Comment


                          • Safety in Relationships

                            "glunk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                            news:[email protected]
                            I do not understand this last paragraph. What are you getting at, that
                            there
                            really are not services available for young mothers? What does that have
                            to
                            do with parental rights? It sounds like you are talking about adoption,
                            and
                            that is not what Caren is talking about at all. Though, I would not want
                            my
                            daughter to have to rely on WIC and other social services to raise her children. Anyone heard the lovely news out of Washington about how the republicans are trashing Section 8 in order to fund more wars (editorial
                            all
                            mine).
                            I can't really be too bothered about Section 8 being trashed. Why exactly
                            am I supposed to want to pay for people who decided to have children they
                            couldn't afford?


                            Comment


                            • Safety in Relationships

                              "JWB" <[email protected] actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite
                              dot com> wrote in message
                              news:[email protected]
                              "urf" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                              Don't get me wrong Shelia. I'm sure that you are a good mother with
                              good
                              instincts for raising your children. I have no doubt that your
                              children
                              will
                              be fine and never encounter these hypothetical circumstances. (I say that about Tony too) I'm looking for some consistency of position. One point is enforcing a
                              teens
                              responsibility a person. A philosophy of "you made your bed" sounds
                              good
                              but I think there are limitations to what we as parents should do to
                              enforce
                              our
                              personal philosophies on our children.
                              You will not find consistency. I truly doubt the hard-liners will truly
                              be
                              hard line when it comes right down to it. I cannot speak from personal experience (as I have no children), but I've known a few people who
                              seemed
                              hard-line and then the next year were making an apartment in the
                              basement
                              for pregnant 17 y/o daughter / daughter and child after the breakup /
                              son
                              and girlfriend w/ baby / etc etc. Nobody can truly say until it really happens to them. I mean, what if the son/daughter proves completely incompetent and runs
                              off
                              with the biker gang in a drug-induced fit? There's a child crying on the couch.... does grandparent call adoption services and be done with it?
                              Who
                              would really do that? I'm not a parent (and don't really like little
                              kids)
                              but I couldn't even do that to my niece, let alone my grandchild.
                              It is hard to know what you'd do, and then you might find yourself with 6
                              grandchildren to raise because your child knew without a doubt that you'd
                              step in over and over and take over their responsibility. Sometimes
                              people will shape up if they know there's not an easy out for them.


                              Comment


                              • Safety in Relationships

                                "Chrys" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                                news:[email protected]
                                "glunk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                                I do not understand this last paragraph. What are you getting at, that
                                there
                                really are not services available for young mothers? What does that have
                                to
                                do with parental rights? It sounds like you are talking about adoption,
                                and
                                that is not what Caren is talking about at all. Though, I would not want
                                my
                                daughter to have to rely on WIC and other social services to raise her children. Anyone heard the lovely news out of Washington about how the republicans are trashing Section 8 in order to fund more wars (editorial
                                all
                                mine).
                                I can't really be too bothered about Section 8 being trashed. Why exactly am I supposed to want to pay for people who decided to have children they couldn't afford?
                                I agree. Screw that.


                                Comment

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