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  • #76
    Safety in Relationships

    Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
    On 06 Jul 2004 17:41:28 -0700, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
    [email protected] (WhansaMi) writes:
    >> Tony didn't say he'd turn his back on her - he said he doesn't want to >> financially support her. > >If her life depends on his support, he is in fact turning his back on >her. If she needs to live with him, he would not allow that either. >I suppose turning your back on someone means different things to us. Caren, I dunno. I think that it is reasonable for parents to say to a pregnant teen (or a teen whose girlfriend is pregnant): "Being a parent is for adults. One has to become an adult, in every way --- emotionally, physically, and financially. If you choose to become a parent (i.e., not have an abortion, and not put the baby up for adoption), you will be choosing to become an adult. I will not be taking over your responsibilities."
    That seems reasonable to me too. Do you think that would be Tony's attitude to a pregnant teen-age daughter? I find it hard to imagine that he could forgive his daughter having an abortion, but maybe I'm wrong.
    It's not my place to forgive her, because the crime wasn't against me. It's God's place to forgive her. But she is still my daughter. I will love her, and visit her, but I will not financially support her. This is the consequence for her action.
    You seem to be saying that if your 15 year old daughter chose to have
    an abortion you would no longer financially support her. Do I
    misunderstand?
    That would leave the daughter a choice between putting up her baby for an adoption (a decision many people find quite difficult to make) or getting no help. She knows the consequences of her actions up front.
    I've talked about this with people before, and they have pointed out to me that I don't know, for sure, what I would do if my daughter/son came to me in this circumstances. And, in this case, they are right... I'm pretty sure what I would do, but I wouldn't bet the house on it. I don't, however, think it is INCUMBANT on the parents of the pregnant teen to take over that responsibility, over which they had no choice or control. You may not think that. But legally, we parents are responsible for the actions of our minor children. This can become quite challenging as our minor children grow more and more capable of making adult-sized mistakes!
    Sure it is. When children make adult-sized mistakes, we deal with them. Sometimes that means disciplining them.
    Again, I think refusing to support a (say) 15 year old goes beyond the
    legal and moral scope of "disciplining them."

    Comment


    • #77
      Safety in Relationships

      [email protected] (Jacques Michel) wrote in message news:<[email protected]g.google. com>...
      [email protected] (shinypenny) wrote in message news:<[email protected] com>... (snip)
      As I've mentioned before, a big reason I married my ex is that I knew in my heart he'd never hurt me. Yep, I felt completely safe. But not in the way that Sheila described in another thread, about how safe she feels with her husband. This was a safety created because there was *zero* emotional intimacy! And it was like that from the start, not a gradual process. Our relationship was built on transactions - paying the bills, caring for the children, supporting his career, keeping the house running. On that level, we worked together very well. But there was never any deep emotional talk, and there was also little shared humor (which now I see as a symptom that there was no real connection). Sure, we talked, but it was all surface-level chit-chat about work and practical matters.
      (snip) You told me about your ex before, but sometimes one has to be hit twice over the head for the light to come on. This may indeed very well the problem with my wife, that she chose me because I would not hurt her. No surprise that we have communication problems. OTOH, our situation is not as unworkable as yours because, first, I don't plan to change her and, second, she did not chose somebody completely safe, she chose somebody very different to her ex. Anyway, I just posted that to thank you for sharing your experience, I think it will help me. Now, I know it is against good posting practice to mix two messages in one post, but I think it is necessary that Caren knows what experience I have to understand my answer to her question:
      [email protected] (Caren) asked in message news:<[email protected] com>...
      Here I go again. This is a topic that my husband just doesn't seem to understand. I have tried countless times, explaining what it takes for me to feel safe in this relationship and he seems to find flaws with it. I have told him what makes me feel unsafe and he finds flaws with that too. For some reason it isn't making sense to him. Either I'm not explaining it in a way that he understands or he is manipulating me. I am very curious as to what men and women in this newsgroup define as safety within a relationship.
      and also said:
      due to my propensity to focus on feelings.
      Caren, I think you are not asking the right question. I am not sure how to explain it, but "safety" is not a "feeling" type of requirement. And it is not a requirement people generally have, or nobody would ever drive a car. I mean: nobody is "safe", you might be hit by a truck tomorrow. In that respect, your husband is right in finding flaws in your question. Now, what is your real question? I can't really help in finding out (I don't know what you really want), but I can point in various directions. It seems the requirement you have is a feeling. Possible feelings that are often present in a relationship include the following: -the feeling that your husband is "in charge", confident, and will lead you to a life you will like -the feeling that your husband is a "strong mand" that will protect you -the feeling that YOU can control your husband if he does not follow the proper path -the feeling that your husband loves you and you have that power on him -the feeling that you are an attractive woman and not dependent on your husband etc... And yes: I know that the examples I gave are not all "nice" feelings, but let's face it, those feelings do exist in many relationships. Feelings are messy. But if your requirement is one of the not-so-nice feelings (I am not saying it is, I really don't know), trying to pretend it does not exist is a much worse solution than facing it. This is why I listed those. And last but not least: feelings happen in YOUR head. This is something both of you must work on together. There is nothing your husband can do if you don't help him.
      I liked what you wrote. Great food for thought and something to talk
      over with him. Maybe that is a better direction to head.

      Comment


      • #78
        Safety in Relationships

        On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:54:48 GMT, Doug Anderson
        <[email protected]> wrote:
        Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
        On 06 Jul 2004 17:41:28 -0700, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
        [email protected] (WhansaMi) writes:> >> Tony didn't say he'd turn his back on her - he said he doesn't want to> >> financially support her.> >> >If her life depends on his support, he is in fact turning his back on> >her. If she needs to live with him, he would not allow that either.> >I suppose turning your back on someone means different things to us.>> Caren, I dunno. I think that it is reasonable for parents to say to a pregnant> teen (or a teen whose girlfriend is pregnant):>> "Being a parent is for adults. One has to become an adult, in every way ---> emotionally, physically, and financially. If you choose to become a parent> (i.e., not have an abortion, and not put the baby up for adoption), you will be> choosing to become an adult. I will not be taking over your> responsibilities." That seems reasonable to me too. Do you think that would be Tony's attitude to a pregnant teen-age daughter? I find it hard to imagine that he could forgive his daughter having an abortion, but maybe I'm wrong.
        It's not my place to forgive her, because the crime wasn't against me. It's God's place to forgive her. But she is still my daughter. I will love her, and visit her, but I will not financially support her. This is the consequence for her action.
        You seem to be saying that if your 15 year old daughter chose to have an abortion you would no longer financially support her. Do I misunderstand?
        Nope, that's right (and she's 14). (Wouldn't kick her out of the house,
        but at 18 she's on her own).
        That would leave the daughter a choice between putting up her baby for an adoption (a decision many people find quite difficult to make) or getting no help. She knows the consequences of her actions up front.
        > I've talked about this with people before, and they have pointed out to me that> I don't know, for sure, what I would do if my daughter/son came to me in this> circumstances. And, in this case, they are right... I'm pretty sure what I> would do, but I wouldn't bet the house on it.>> I don't, however, think it is INCUMBANT on the parents of the pregnant teen to> take over that responsibility, over which they had no choice or> control. You may not think that. But legally, we parents are responsible for the actions of our minor children. This can become quite challenging as our minor children grow more and more capable of making adult-sized mistakes!
        Sure it is. When children make adult-sized mistakes, we deal with them. Sometimes that means disciplining them. Again, I think refusing to support a (say) 15 year old goes beyond the legal and moral scope of "disciplining them."
        Then I didn't make myself clear.

        -Tony

        --
        "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
        to fertilize your lawn!"
        Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
        Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

        Comment


        • #79
          Safety in Relationships

          Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
          On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:54:48 GMT, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
          Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
          On 06 Jul 2004 17:41:28 -0700, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote: > [email protected] (WhansaMi) writes: > >> >> Tony didn't say he'd turn his back on her - he said he doesn't want to >> >> financially support her. >> > >> >If her life depends on his support, he is in fact turning his back on >> >her. If she needs to live with him, he would not allow that either. >> >I suppose turning your back on someone means different things to us. >> >> Caren, I dunno. I think that it is reasonable for parents to say to a pregnant >> teen (or a teen whose girlfriend is pregnant): >> >> "Being a parent is for adults. One has to become an adult, in every way --- >> emotionally, physically, and financially. If you choose to become a parent >> (i.e., not have an abortion, and not put the baby up for adoption), you will be >> choosing to become an adult. I will not be taking over your >> responsibilities." > > That seems reasonable to me too. > > Do you think that would be Tony's attitude to a pregnant teen-age > daughter? I find it hard to imagine that he could forgive his > daughter having an abortion, but maybe I'm wrong. It's not my place to forgive her, because the crime wasn't against me. It's God's place to forgive her. But she is still my daughter. I will love her, and visit her, but I will not financially support her. This is the consequence for her action.
          You seem to be saying that if your 15 year old daughter chose to have an abortion you would no longer financially support her. Do I misunderstand?
          Nope, that's right (and she's 14). (Wouldn't kick her out of the house,
          I'm still confused. You wouldn't financially support her, but you
          wouldn't kick her out of the house? Does that mean you'd start
          charging her for room and board?
          but at 18 she's on her own).
          > That would leave the daughter a choice between putting up her baby for > an adoption (a decision many people find quite difficult to make) or > getting no help. She knows the consequences of her actions up front. >> I've talked about this with people before, and they have pointed out to me that >> I don't know, for sure, what I would do if my daughter/son came to me in this >> circumstances. And, in this case, they are right... I'm pretty sure what I >> would do, but I wouldn't bet the house on it. >> >> I don't, however, think it is INCUMBANT on the parents of the pregnant teen to >> take over that responsibility, over which they had no choice or >> control. > > You may not think that. But legally, we parents are responsible for > the actions of our minor children. This can become quite challenging > as our minor children grow more and more capable of making adult-sized > mistakes! Sure it is. When children make adult-sized mistakes, we deal with them. Sometimes that means disciplining them. Again, I think refusing to support a (say) 15 year old goes beyond the legal and moral scope of "disciplining them."
          Then I didn't make myself clear.
          In what way?

          Comment


          • #80
            Safety in Relationships

            "Jacques Michel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
            news:[email protected] om...
            Caren, I think you are not asking the right question. I am not sure how to explain it, but "safety" is not a "feeling" type of requirement. And it is not a requirement people generally have, or nobody would ever drive a car. I mean: nobody is "safe", you might be hit by a truck tomorrow.
            In Maslow's hierarchy of needs safety is only less important than physical
            needs.
            It is *very* important. But, as I remember his theories, one is generally
            not aware or particularly attuned to a need if it is being met. (Sort of
            like money is only important when you don't have any.)

            Ted


            Comment


            • #81
              Safety in Relationships

              Tony Miller wrote:
              On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:42:01 -0500, Amy D <[email protected]> wrote:
              Bill, I understand what you are saying. If my teenage son impregantes a teenage girl then I will FIRST blame myself because obviously I screwed up somewhere.
              My mom has a saying: "I won't take credit for your successes or blame for your failures, because neither is my fault". -Tony
              It is not quite that simple. If you (generically) "abuse" your child, your
              bear some, if not most, of the responsibility. And "abuse" is a broad
              term here - it could even include absentee or piss-poor parenting.


              Comment


              • #82
                Safety in Relationships

                "Seeker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
                "Jacques Michel" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] om...
                Caren, I think you are not asking the right question. I am not sure how to explain it, but "safety" is not a "feeling" type of requirement. And it is not a requirement people generally have, or nobody would ever drive a car. I mean: nobody is "safe", you might be hit by a truck tomorrow.
                In Maslow's hierarchy of needs safety is only less important than physical needs. It is *very* important. But, as I remember his theories, one is generally not aware or particularly attuned to a need if it is being met. (Sort of like money is only important when you don't have any.)
                The point is "safety" and "feeling of safety" are different things.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Safety in Relationships

                  "Jacques Michel" <[email protected]> wrote in message > >
                  The point is "safety" and "feeling of safety" are different things.
                  Maslow's hierachy is mostly talking about emotional needs -- so it *is* the
                  feeling of safety that is important, not the reality of it.

                  Ted


                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Safety in Relationships



                    urf wrote:
                    Just a quick question for those of you in this thread. Do any of you have grandchildren? Could you disavow your own grandchild?
                    I don't know but maybe there's a problem with communication here.
                    I see people talking about 'turning their back on their pregnant
                    child' and 'disavowing' them. There's a *big* difference in telling
                    your children and backing it up with actions that a pregnancy for
                    them under the age of 18 will mean that they will be doing the
                    vast majority of the caretaking of that child and not you and if
                    they're over the age of 18 it will mean the same thing except that
                    they will be expected to get their own apartment and do the parenting
                    there and throwing your child out on the street and pretending not
                    to recognize them when you see them.

                    Our son recently went to spend 10 days with his GF's family. They
                    live quite a ways away from us now. We had a long talk with him
                    before he left and basically laid it out for him. That if they
                    decided to be 'stupid' while he was there and we were to get a
                    phone call a couple of months from now informing us of impending
                    grandparenthood, his future day-to-day life was going to be much
                    different and we laid it out for him how very different it would
                    be. (Computer and video game systems sold to provide baby items
                    for the child, full-time job to pay for day-to-day expenses for
                    the child, etc.) We also talked about how my parents started working
                    in a factory when they were 16 and 17 and, after the kids started
                    coming, worked in the same factory for 30 and 40 years, hating
                    every minute of it because they *had* to work there to support
                    their family. And the difference between them and myself and his
                    father in that we had careers we liked *before* we had children
                    so working to support them wasn't a 'Hate every minute spent there'
                    kind of thing.

                    So, kick my child out on the street if they or their GF becomes
                    pregnant? No. Support them while they provide for and raise their
                    child? When and if I can, to a point. Take over the caretaking and
                    financial support of the child so that they (the child) can still
                    have a 'normal' childhood? No way.

                    Tracey

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Safety in Relationships

                      >urf wrote:
                      Just a quick question for those of you in this thread. Do any of you have grandchildren? Could you disavow your own grandchild?I don't know but maybe there's a problem with communication here.I see people talking about 'turning their back on their pregnantchild' and 'disavowing' them. There's a *big* difference in tellingyour children and backing it up with actions that a pregnancy forthem under the age of 18 will mean that they will be doing thevast majority of the caretaking of that child and not you and ifthey're over the age of 18 it will mean the same thing except thatthey will be expected to get their own apartment and do the parentingthere and throwing your child out on the street and pretending notto recognize them when you see them.Our son recently went to spend 10 days with his GF's family. Theylive quite a ways away from us now. We had a long talk with himbefore he left and basically laid it out for him. That if theydecided to be 'stupid' while he was there and we were to get aphone call a couple of months from now informing us of impendinggrandparenthood, his future day-to-day life was going to be muchdifferent and we laid it out for him how very different it wouldbe. (Computer and video game systems sold to provide baby itemsfor the child, full-time job to pay for day-to-day expenses forthe child, etc.) We also talked about how my parents started workingin a factory when they were 16 and 17 and, after the kids startedcoming, worked in the same factory for 30 and 40 years, hatingevery minute of it because they *had* to work there to supporttheir family. And the difference between them and myself and hisfather in that we had careers we liked *before* we had childrenso working to support them wasn't a 'Hate every minute spent there'kind of thing.So, kick my child out on the street if they or their GF becomespregnant? No. Support them while they provide for and raise theirchild? When and if I can, to a point. Take over the caretaking andfinancial support of the child so that they (the child) can stillhave a 'normal' childhood? No way.Tracey
                      Thank you, Tracey. You said it much better than I could have.

                      Sheila

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Safety in Relationships

                        Tracey <[email protected]> writes:
                        urf wrote:
                        Just a quick question for those of you in this thread. Do any of you have grandchildren? Could you disavow your own grandchild?
                        I don't know but maybe there's a problem with communication here. I see people talking about 'turning their back on their pregnant child' and 'disavowing' them. There's a *big* difference in telling your children and backing it up with actions that a pregnancy for them under the age of 18 will mean that they will be doing the vast majority of the caretaking of that child and not you and if they're over the age of 18 it will mean the same thing except that they will be expected to get their own apartment and do the parenting there and throwing your child out on the street and pretending not to recognize them when you see them.
                        There is. But a couple posters have said they would cease financially
                        supporting a teenaged child who had a baby if that teenaged child
                        didn't abort or put the baby up for adoption.

                        These posters didn't distinguish between cases when when that teenager
                        was a minor and cases when that teenager was of age.
                        Our son recently went to spend 10 days with his GF's family. They live quite a ways away from us now. We had a long talk with him before he left and basically laid it out for him. That if they decided to be 'stupid' while he was there and we were to get a phone call a couple of months from now informing us of impending grandparenthood, his future day-to-day life was going to be much different and we laid it out for him how very different it would be. (Computer and video game systems sold to provide baby items for the child, full-time job to pay for day-to-day expenses for the child, etc.) We also talked about how my parents started working in a factory when they were 16 and 17 and, after the kids started coming, worked in the same factory for 30 and 40 years, hating every minute of it because they *had* to work there to support their family. And the difference between them and myself and his father in that we had careers we liked *before* we had children so working to support them wasn't a 'Hate every minute spent there' kind of thing.
                        Good talk. Can I borrow your grandparents?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Safety in Relationships


                          "Tracey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                          news:[email protected]
                          urf wrote:
                          Just a quick question for those of you in this thread. Do any of you have grandchildren? Could you disavow your own grandchild?
                          I don't know but maybe there's a problem with communication here. I see people talking about 'turning their back on their pregnant child' and 'disavowing' them. There's a *big* difference in telling your children and backing it up with actions that a pregnancy for them under the age of 18 will mean that they will be doing the vast majority of the caretaking of that child and not you and if they're over the age of 18 it will mean the same thing except that they will be expected to get their own apartment and do the parenting there and throwing your child out on the street and pretending not to recognize them when you see them. Our son recently went to spend 10 days with his GF's family. They live quite a ways away from us now. We had a long talk with him before he left and basically laid it out for him. That if they decided to be 'stupid' while he was there and we were to get a phone call a couple of months from now informing us of impending grandparenthood, his future day-to-day life was going to be much different and we laid it out for him how very different it would be. (Computer and video game systems sold to provide baby items for the child, full-time job to pay for day-to-day expenses for the child, etc.) We also talked about how my parents started working in a factory when they were 16 and 17 and, after the kids started coming, worked in the same factory for 30 and 40 years, hating every minute of it because they *had* to work there to support their family. And the difference between them and myself and his father in that we had careers we liked *before* we had children so working to support them wasn't a 'Hate every minute spent there' kind of thing. So, kick my child out on the street if they or their GF becomes pregnant? No. Support them while they provide for and raise their child? When and if I can, to a point. Take over the caretaking and financial support of the child so that they (the child) can still have a 'normal' childhood? No way. Tracey
                          I think you just gave an excellent explanation on how to parent
                          a teen.

                          Passion is something we all should understand. Maturity to
                          deal with passion comes to us only the hard way. Mistakes
                          happen. It is how we handle the mistakes that displays
                          our character to our families and the world.




                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Safety in Relationships


                            "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                            news:[email protected]
                            On 06 Jul 2004 17:41:28 -0700, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
                            [email protected] (WhansaMi) writes:
                            >> Tony didn't say he'd turn his back on her - he said he doesn't want
                            to
                            >> financially support her. > >If her life depends on his support, he is in fact turning his back on >her. If she needs to live with him, he would not allow that either. >I suppose turning your back on someone means different things to us. Caren, I dunno. I think that it is reasonable for parents to say to a
                            pregnant
                            teen (or a teen whose girlfriend is pregnant): "Being a parent is for adults. One has to become an adult, in every
                            way ---
                            emotionally, physically, and financially. If you choose to become a
                            parent
                            (i.e., not have an abortion, and not put the baby up for adoption), you
                            will be
                            choosing to become an adult. I will not be taking over your responsibilities." That seems reasonable to me too. Do you think that would be Tony's attitude to a pregnant teen-age daughter? I find it hard to imagine that he could forgive his daughter having an abortion, but maybe I'm wrong. It's not my place to forgive her, because the crime wasn't against me. It's God's place to forgive her. But she is still my daughter. I will love her, and visit her, but I will not financially support her. This is the consequence for her action.
                            That would leave the daughter a choice between putting up her baby for an adoption (a decision many people find quite difficult to make) or getting no help.
                            She knows the consequences of her actions up front.
                            I've talked about this with people before, and they have pointed out to
                            me that
                            I don't know, for sure, what I would do if my daughter/son came to me
                            in this
                            circumstances. And, in this case, they are right... I'm pretty sure
                            what I
                            would do, but I wouldn't bet the house on it. I don't, however, think it is INCUMBANT on the parents of the pregnant
                            teen to
                            take over that responsibility, over which they had no choice or control. You may not think that. But legally, we parents are responsible for the actions of our minor children. This can become quite challenging as our minor children grow more and more capable of making adult-sized mistakes! Sure it is. When children make adult-sized mistakes, we deal with them. Sometimes that means disciplining them. -Tony
                            Tony, you seem cool enough to maintain a relationship with your child
                            throughout
                            her lifetime (If you want to that is), but how would you feel if she became
                            estranged from you and your wife as an adult? Would you be happy,
                            indifferent or sad?
                            Would you say that it was the result of your actions and that you were
                            responsible
                            for the estrangement?


                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Safety in Relationships


                              "Doug Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                              news:[email protected]
                              Tracey <[email protected]> writes:
                              urf wrote:
                              Just a quick question for those of you in this thread. Do any of you have grandchildren? Could you disavow your own grandchild?
                              I don't know but maybe there's a problem with communication here. I see people talking about 'turning their back on their pregnant child' and 'disavowing' them. There's a *big* difference in telling your children and backing it up with actions that a pregnancy for them under the age of 18 will mean that they will be doing the vast majority of the caretaking of that child and not you and if they're over the age of 18 it will mean the same thing except that they will be expected to get their own apartment and do the parenting there and throwing your child out on the street and pretending not to recognize them when you see them.
                              There is. But a couple posters have said they would cease financially supporting a teenaged child who had a baby if that teenaged child didn't abort or put the baby up for adoption. These posters didn't distinguish between cases when when that teenager was a minor and cases when that teenager was of age.
                              Well, the world needs teenage hookers too I suppose. What's the
                              difference if they are 15 or 18. They are condemned by their mistakes.
                              They should suck it up and take the responsibility. Every time they
                              turn a trick they should think of what their parents told them and
                              understand
                              that their parents were right. For some people it's more important to be
                              right than to forgive and be loving.

                              The saddest story I ever read was "Marta" by Gibran. Anyone who reads
                              this story would change their minds on this subject.


                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Safety in Relationships

                                >There is. But a couple posters have said they would cease financially
                                supporting a teenaged child who had a baby if that teenaged childdidn't abort or put the baby up for adoption.These posters didn't distinguish between cases when when that teenagerwas a minor and cases when that teenager was of age.
                                I did.

                                Sheila

                                Comment

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