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  • Safety in Relationships


    "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:40:21 +1000, Tai <[email protected]> wrote:
    WhansaMi wrote:
    > "WhansaMi" <[email protected]> wrote in message> news:[email protected]>>> WhansaMi wrote:>>>>>> Tony didn't say he'd turn his back on her - he said he doesn't>>>>>> want> to>>>>>> financially support her.>>>>>>>>>> If her life depends on his support, he is in fact turning his>>>>> back on her. If she needs to live with him, he would not allow>>>>> that either. I suppose turning your back on someone means>>>>> different things to us.>>>>>>>> Caren, I dunno. I think that it is reasonable for parents to say>>>> to a pregnant teen (or a teen whose girlfriend is pregnant):>>>>>>>> "Being a parent is for adults. One has to become an adult, in>>>> every>>> way --->>>> emotionally, physically, and financially. If you choose to>>>> become a>>> parent>>>> (i.e., not have an abortion, and not put the baby up for>>>> adoption), you>>> will>>>> be choosing to become an adult. I will not be taking over your>>>> responsibilities.">>>>>> You can bet somebody will though. They'll have to (see below)...>>>>>>> I've talked about this with people before, and they have pointed>>>> out to> me>>>> that I don't know, for sure, what I would do if my daughter/son>>>> came to> me>>> in>>>> this circumstances. And, in this case, they are right... I'm>>>> pretty> sure>>>> what I would do, but I wouldn't bet the house on it.>>>>>>>> I don't, however, think it is INCUMBANT on the parents of the>>>> pregnant>>> teen>>>> to take over that responsibility, over which they had no choice or>>> control. If>>>> they want to, that is fine, but I don't think badly of anyone who> doesn't.>>> I>>>> think the ultimate responsibility lays with the teens, who made>>>> the>>> choices>>>> that put them in that position.>>>>>>>> Sheila>>>>>> But how can the teen be responsible after the fact (and still>>> choosing to> be>>> a so called "parent")? They have no clue. You know that, I>>> know> that,>>> we ALL know that - except the teen, who can't see it for the life>>> of him/her.>>>>>> It seems what often happens is the parents or some relatives have>>> to pick> up>>> the slack, unless you want to throw them out on the street. So>>> is> there>>> really a good solution? I dunno....>>>> There is no **good** solution. But, there are some that are better>> than> others>> (IMO, abortion and adoption are both better options). If I>> believed that keeping the child was a *poor* option, I can't see>> myself financing it.>>>> Sheila>> I wonder why the focus on money? Well, I guess (1) the conversation evolved to be around money and (2) that is a major way in which teenagers usually *cannot* supply what is needed for a baby, and a place where they have to look for someone else to pick up the slack.>> Would you provide emotional support?>> I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you be more specific?> Babysitting? No, especially not for them to go out and "have a life". It would be one of the ground rules for living with me: school, work and parenting. No leaving the baby at home to hang out with friends. Teen life would be over.
    That's very harsh and I think that would be a good way to induce misery
    to
    the point of actual depression in a young parent already struggling with her/his new responsibilities. We don't expect adult single parents to
    forgo
    a social life so why would we expect a teenager to do so? An adult earns the right to a social life.
    You seem to want to punish this hypothetical errant teen!
    Actions have consequences.
    I wouldn't expect any grandparent to be always on tap as a baby sitter
    but I
    would want my child to have some free time to herself - if for no other reason than I know what it's like to have the care of small children and would have probably have gone loopy if I was never allowed free time
    with my
    friends. Then the child earns the right to a social life (of sorts) -Tony
    Does a parent have to earn the right to be called a parent? Is simply
    having a child sufficient? Does one bail out every time there is something
    difficult to overcome? What example do you teach by disposing of
    errant children?

    I suspect that understand you Tony.


    Comment


    • Safety in Relationships

      >> >> Babysitting?
      No, especially not for them to go out and "have a life". It would be one of the ground rules for living with me: school, work and parenting. No leaving the baby at home to hang out with friends. Teen life would be over. That's very harsh and I think that would be a good way to induce misery to the point of actual depression in a young parent already struggling with her/his new responsibilities. We don't expect adult single parents toforgo
      a social life so why would we expect a teenager to do so? You seem to want to punish this hypothetical errant teen! I wouldn't expect any grandparent to be always on tap as a baby sitter but
      I
      would want my child to have some free time to herself - if for no other reason than I know what it's like to have the care of small children and would have probably have gone loopy if I was never allowed free time with
      my
      friends. Tai
      Estelle and I love to baby-sit our grandchildren. We love to see them gohome too.I don't know how we did it when we were young. I don't know how our childrendoit now. It's the most draining thing we do in our life.
      Remember, that if they were living with us, and the child-parent was going to
      school and working, it would be **highly** unlikely that we wouldn't be pressed
      into babysitting, childcare pick-up, doctor's visits and the like anyway.

      My point is that I shouldn't have to be a caregiver for a child I've had
      absolutely no decision on bringing into this world. If my underage child
      chooses to do that, I would probably **have** to be the back line, but I would
      have no intention on being a partner in the childrearing. I wouldn't want my
      kid to start viewing me as an equal partner, one where she felt that she could
      depend on me to "take up the slack". I would do what I could to make sure that
      impression never formed -- both before a pregnancy and after a baby arrives.

      Sheila

      Comment


      • Safety in Relationships


        "WhansaMi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
        news:[email protected]
        If I believed that
        keeping the child was a *poor* option, I can't see myself financing it. Sheila
        I wonder why the focus on money? Would you provide emotional support?Babysitting? BTW, the reason I wouldn't babysit is that I am not the only babysitter in
        the
        world. :-) If the parent wants to go out, she would need to pay one. If
        she
        can't afford it... well, that is another life lesson, and one that I have pointed out to my own kids in this discussion --- when you have kids
        before you
        are ready for them, financially, it means you can't do a **lot** of things
        you
        want to do, from buying them cute little designer outfits, to going out. These things aren't free, and they are the things that you can't do if you
        have
        a child before you are ready for them. Sheila
        You could afford it. Would you buy your little granddaughter (that you did
        not want)
        cute little outfits? Estelle spends an inordinate amount of time eewwing and
        ahhing
        over cute little sundresses.


        Comment


        • Safety in Relationships

          >You could afford it. Would you buy your little granddaughter (that you did
          not want)cute little outfits? Estelle spends an inordinate amount of time eewwing andahhingover cute little sundresses.
          I'd do what *I* wanted to do. That is the difference I see here. As I just
          wrote to Stephanie, I don't want there to be any misperception that I am a
          partner in this arrangement.

          Sheila

          Comment


          • Safety in Relationships

            On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:22:28 -0400, glunk
            <[email protected]> wrote:
            "WhansaMi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
            > I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you be more specific?>>> Babysitting?>> No, especially not for them to go out and "have a life". It would be> one of the ground rules for living with me: school, work and> parenting. No leaving the baby at home to hang out with friends.> Teen life would be over.That's very harsh and I think that would be a good way to induce misery
            to
            the point of actual depression in a young parent already struggling withher/his new responsibilities. We don't expect adult single parents to
            forgo
            a social life so why would we expect a teenager to do so?You seem to want to punish this hypothetical errant teen!I wouldn't expect any grandparent to be always on tap as a baby sitter
            but I
            would want my child to have some free time to herself - if for no otherreason than I know what it's like to have the care of small children andwould have probably have gone loopy if I was never allowed free time with
            my
            friends.Tai Sure, as I've said, I'm not the only babysitter in the world. For most people, babysitters get used very judiciously **when they can be
            afforded**.
            When the teen parent can afford one, he/she can hire one. Sheila
            Luckily for me, my in-laws don't feel that way. They actually sometimes tell us we have not had a date in too long, why don't you guiys go out on Saturday. I am a lucky, lucky woman.
            My wife and I had been married a few weeks when my father in law asked us
            when we were going to make them grandparents. I asked: "Are you going to
            babysit"? He said: "You bet!". We shook on it and when the grandchildren
            came he was true to his word

            -Tony

            --
            "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
            to fertilize your lawn!"
            Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
            Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

            Comment


            • Safety in Relationships

              In article <[email protected]>, Tony Miller wrote:
              An adult earns the right to a social life.
              You seem to want to punish this hypothetical errant teen!
              Actions have consequences.
              I wouldn't expect any grandparent to be always on tap as a baby sitter but I would want my child to have some free time to herself - if for no other reason than I know what it's like to have the care of small children and would have probably have gone loopy if I was never allowed free time with my friends.
              Then the child earns the right to a social life (of sorts) -Tony
              I don't think, realistically, that this is a good approach to having a
              good long term relationsip with either the child or the grandchild.

              Having a baby and having to care for the baby 90% of the time is
              enough of a "consequence", there is no reason to make it into a
              torture simply because you are mean spirited.

              Anyhow, time to be a strict parent is before the baby comes along.

              After that, it is about managing the situation.

              i

              Comment


              • Safety in Relationships

                I think of baby sitting, within reason, as free entertainment. Not a
                chore, unless, of course, it takes way too much time.

                Just yesterday I spent almost the entire evening with my son, and it
                was rather pleasant. We went to a bookstore, goofed by the fountain,
                ate a potato salad at a cafe, bathed etc etc.

                People who view it as a chore, are missing out a lot.

                i

                Comment


                • Safety in Relationships

                  On 12 Jul 2004 14:54:19 GMT, Ignoramus32482
                  <[email protected]> wrote:
                  I think of baby sitting, within reason, as free entertainment. Not achore, unless, of course, it takes way too much time.Just yesterday I spent almost the entire evening with my son, and itwas rather pleasant. We went to a bookstore, goofed by the fountain,ate a potato salad at a cafe, bathed etc etc.People who view it as a chore, are missing out a lot.i
                  I used to not like babies - noisy, messy, etc. When my wife and I
                  married (I was 25 and she was 29 with 2 little girls from a previous
                  marriage) we agreed no kids. I would have the chance to be a parent
                  with her girls, and that was enough for me.

                  We were surprised last year to find out she was pregnant. I'm 37 and
                  she's 41. Had my boy in October, and I can't believe how much I like
                  babies now. Wish I had known what it was like years ago, we
                  would've done it right away.

                  My daughter's boyfriend's sister has a baby, 4 months old. She
                  brought it over this weekend and we told the girls to go off and relax
                  for a while, and babysat her baby with ours for the evening - I had a
                  ball.

                  So I can agree with your comment about viewing it as a chore and
                  missing out. But, by the same token, I know some people who just
                  don't like babies, have had their own, and still don't like babies.
                  Especially other people's babies, where they don't have that parental
                  tie. To each his own I guess, but I'm glad I was converted.

                  John

                  Comment


                  • Safety in Relationships

                    in article [email protected], Ignoramus32482 at
                    [email protected]lid wrote on 7/12/04 8:54 AM:
                    I think of baby sitting, within reason, as free entertainment. Not a chore, unless, of course, it takes way too much time. Just yesterday I spent almost the entire evening with my son, and it was rather pleasant. We went to a bookstore, goofed by the fountain, ate a potato salad at a cafe, bathed etc etc. People who view it as a chore, are missing out a lot. i

                    That's not babysitting, Igor. That's doing your job as a parent.

                    M.

                    Comment


                    • Safety in Relationships

                      Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
                      On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:32:04 -0400, glunk <[email protected]> wrote:
                      I would say the new life is consequence enough. It is also OK to choose to teach facing consequences with joy. My mom has an expression. "Find your responsibilities in life and make them you joy." I see no reason to heap misery on if the respobsility is faced head on. If the teenager is accepting the responsibility, why not see this as a teachable moment to show that a responsibility does not have to be a bad thing?
                      It's not joyous. It is bring a child into the world without the benefit of a dad, doomed to probably live his or her life in poverty.
                      This I have to object to. It is simply absurd to imagine that the
                      offspring of a teenaged child of middle class parents is doomed to
                      live in poverty.

                      Especially since, in spite of your claim that you wouldn't support the
                      teenager financially, you apparently _are_ willing to support her
                      financially, at least as far as allowing her to continue living with
                      you.

                      Of course if your 15 year old has a child, you _are_ in a position to
                      make it more likely that this child experiences a life of poverty!

                      Comment


                      • Safety in Relationships

                        On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:33:14 GMT, urf
                        <[email protected]> wrote:
                        "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                        <Snip>
                        I wouldn't expect any grandparent to be always on tap as a baby sitter but I
                        would want my child to have some free time to herself - if for no other reason than I know what it's like to have the care of small children and would have probably have gone loopy if I was never allowed free time
                        with my
                        friends. Then the child earns the right to a social life (of sorts) -Tony
                        Does a parent have to earn the right to be called a parent? Is simply having a child sufficient? Does one bail out every time there is something difficult to overcome? What example do you teach by disposing of errant children?
                        WTF are you talking about?
                        I suspect that understand you Tony.
                        Was that an English sentence?

                        --
                        "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
                        to fertilize your lawn!"
                        Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
                        Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

                        Comment


                        • Safety in Relationships


                          "Tracey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                          news:[email protected]
                          urf wrote:
                          I'm looking for some consistency of position. One point is enforcing a
                          teens
                          responsibility a person. A philosophy of "you made your bed" sounds
                          good
                          but I think there are limitations to what we as parents should do to enforce
                          our
                          personal philosophies on our children. I don't get this, Urf. Sounds like you're saying that, as a parent, my personal philosophies should take a back seat to my child's. Going back to the 'teen is having a baby' discussion, I don't see where my child's hypothetical personal philosophy of 'I'm having a baby so I'm an adult and can do what I want. And what I want is for you to take care of my baby so I can go to school, pay for it's formula and diapers and all of the other things it will need. Take it to it's doctor appointments and get up with it in the middle of the night because I must sleep so I can go to school. And, since I'm still a teen, you can also pay for my cell phone, give me money for the prom, keep the baby so I can go out with my friends and have a life' trumps MY personal philosophy of 'Having a baby means your childhood is over.' Tracey
                          There have been recent news stories on the development of teenage
                          brains.

                          http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/hea...p?story=540175

                          not on topic but interesting
                          http://www.news-medical.net/?id=3233


                          http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observe...8962034.htm?1c
                          excerpt from the above link
                          "Brain maturity is a legal issue, too. When should children be held
                          accountable for their actions, particularly when they have committed a
                          crime? In the United States, juveniles are increasingly prosecuted as
                          adults, despite recent advances in our understanding of brain development.

                          In a 1999 study comparing the magnetic resonance images (MRI) of adolescent
                          and adult brains, Dr. Deborah Yurgelun-Todd and other researchers at Harvard
                          Medical School showed that immature brains actually work differently from
                          mature ones. The part of the brain responsible for rational decision-making,
                          impulse control, and foresight is the prefrontal cortex, the last part of
                          the brain to mature. Because their prefrontal cortexes are not yet
                          developed, adolescents use the amygdala in decision making, an imperfect
                          substitute at best, since it deals with emotional responses, not rational
                          thought."

                          My view is this

                          In the same way that a 2 year old is not responsible for "all" of their
                          actions

                          neither is a teen responsible for "all of their actions". Even though it
                          would fit

                          so nicely into a package and would make the world run so well.

                          A toddler sees a cup of hot tea on the table. They are duly warned about the

                          danger. The adult turns his/her head and the toddler spills the scalding
                          liquid all

                          over themselves. Clearly the toddler is responsible but could we also say
                          that

                          the parent is relieved of responsibility? Should the parent then say well
                          you

                          caused this so you must live with the consequences. Most parents would not

                          do that and rightfully so. Most would rush to the aid of the burned child to
                          comfort

                          and mollify to whatever extent possible. In the same way a teen will make
                          mistakes

                          but in the case of a teen they are bigger more profound mistakes.

                          Teens are NOT relieved of the consequences of their mistakes. Neither are
                          parents

                          relieved of the consequences of their children's mistakes. That is why we
                          call ourselves

                          families. Because disaster visited upon one affects all in the family.

                          Those who would cast their children aside in the name of righteousness don't
                          deserve

                          to call themselves parents. Even those who would rid themselves of the child
                          can never

                          rid themselves of the knowledge of how they themselves behaved in the
                          matter.


                          Comment


                          • Safety in Relationships


                            "Ignoramus32482" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                            news:[email protected]
                            I think of baby sitting, within reason, as free entertainment. Not a chore, unless, of course, it takes way too much time. Just yesterday I spent almost the entire evening with my son, and it was rather pleasant. We went to a bookstore, goofed by the fountain, ate a potato salad at a cafe, bathed etc etc. People who view it as a chore, are missing out a lot. i
                            A curiousity question... You spent the day with your own son. Do you call
                            that "babysitting?" My FIL refered to my DH babysitting our kids. My DH got
                            a confused look on his face and asked how caring for your own kids is
                            babysitting?

                            I am not trying to bust your chops. But I notice a lot of folks in my little
                            circle of aqcuaintances see childcare as the Mom's thing. And Dad is the
                            extra.


                            Comment


                            • Safety in Relationships

                              In article <BD1804B9.2BEC1%[email protected]>, Michael wrote:
                              in article [email protected], Ignoramus32482 at [email protected]lid wrote on 7/12/04 8:54 AM:
                              I think of baby sitting, within reason, as free entertainment. Not a chore, unless, of course, it takes way too much time. Just yesterday I spent almost the entire evening with my son, and it was rather pleasant. We went to a bookstore, goofed by the fountain, ate a potato salad at a cafe, bathed etc etc. People who view it as a chore, are missing out a lot. i
                              That's not babysitting, Igor. That's doing your job as a parent. M.
                              If you want to call it by some other name, that's fine with me. All I
                              was saying is that watching kids is fun.

                              i

                              Comment


                              • Safety in Relationships


                                "WhansaMi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                                news:[email protected]
                                >> Babysitting? > > No, especially not for them to go out and "have a life". It would be > one of the ground rules for living with me: school, work and > parenting. No leaving the baby at home to hang out with friends. > Teen life would be over. That's very harsh and I think that would be a good way to induce misery
                                to
                                the point of actual depression in a young parent already struggling
                                with
                                her/his new responsibilities. We don't expect adult single parents toforgo
                                a social life so why would we expect a teenager to do so? You seem to want to punish this hypothetical errant teen! I wouldn't expect any grandparent to be always on tap as a baby sitter
                                but
                                I
                                would want my child to have some free time to herself - if for no other reason than I know what it's like to have the care of small children
                                and
                                would have probably have gone loopy if I was never allowed free time
                                with
                                my
                                friends. Tai
                                Estelle and I love to baby-sit our grandchildren. We love to see them gohome too.I don't know how we did it when we were young. I don't know how our
                                children
                                doit now. It's the most draining thing we do in our life. Remember, that if they were living with us, and the child-parent was going
                                to
                                school and working, it would be **highly** unlikely that we wouldn't be
                                pressed
                                into babysitting, childcare pick-up, doctor's visits and the like anyway. My point is that I shouldn't have to be a caregiver for a child I've had absolutely no decision on bringing into this world. If my underage child chooses to do that, I would probably **have** to be the back line, but I
                                would
                                have no intention on being a partner in the childrearing. I wouldn't want
                                my
                                kid to start viewing me as an equal partner, one where she felt that she
                                could
                                depend on me to "take up the slack". I would do what I could to make sure
                                that
                                impression never formed -- both before a pregnancy and after a baby
                                arrives.
                                Sheila
                                I have no problem with that at all.


                                Comment

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