Complete Labor Law Poster for $24.95
from www.LaborLawCenter.com, includes
State, Federal, & OSHA posting requirements

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Thank God This is Being Approved

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Thank God This is Being Approved

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Steve White <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Linda Fortney) wrote:
    Canada, the UK, France and every other western industrialized country negotiates lower drug prices with the pharmaceutical companies.
    And do you know why?Because (yes, I'll tell you :-)These countries force pharma to sell at their marginal cost -- the costof producing the 10,000,001st pill on the production line. They won'tallow pharma to roll in their R & D costs.

    Every country in the EU and Japan negotiates reasonable drug prices from
    the greedheads of big pharma. HMOs and insurance plans in the US
    negotiate lower prices. So, who is left to pay full freight? The ones
    who can least afford it, those without insurance, the poor and the working
    poor and the elderly.

    Big pharma's advertising costs are skyrocketing--up 22% in 2003 according
    to Standard and Poors. That 3.3 billion could be better spent cutting
    drug prices for the poor.

    Again according to S&P, drug costs have risen 12.4% annually more than 4
    times the rate of inflation. Other health care costs are rising at a rate
    of 7% every year.

    Even Standard and Poor's hardly a bunch of wild eyed leftists called drug
    company prices "excessive." (S &P Industry Surveys Oct. 2004 vol 2.)

    The greedheads won't make flu vaccine for Americans because it might
    effect their excessive profits.

    Big pharm claims that these high prices are necessary to cover R and D
    costs. The truth is that in 2002 the top 10 US drug companies had a
    median profit margin of 17%. The median profit rate for other Fortune 500
    industries is 3%

    The major companies spend less on R &D than they keep in profits and far
    less than they spend on marketing.

    Big pharm claims they bring out a steady stream of lifesaving drugs.
    Baloney. Of the 78 drugs approved by the FDA in 2002, only 17 were new
    chemical compounds and only 7 of the 17 were classified by the FDA as
    improvements over drugs on the market. The remaining 10 were fiddle
    faddle--change an unimportant ingreedient to hang onto the patent type
    stuff.

    The innovative drugs usually come from research at government or
    university labs, not from Big Pharm.

    As for doctor education and the stuffed spinal cords (I have seen one with
    my own eyes; it was part of the commplete set along with stuffed kidneys,
    lungs, all with anthropomorphized faces. Gag me) let alone the trips to
    exotic locales for docs for "educational programming" to convince
    practicioners that the new expensive drug is so much better than the old
    one.

    If physicians took responsibility for their own continuing ed and relied
    on double blind studies rather than industry sales pitches they might well
    perscribe more effective drugs.


    And don't give me the "we're so busy" rap. No one sponsors my continuing
    education.

    17% profit rate and people suffer because they can't afford the ****
    drugs. I don't have proof but I can imagine some people are dying because
    of corporate greed.


    Linda

    Comment


    • #17
      Thank God This is Being Approved


      Linda Fortney <[email protected]> wrote in message
      news:[email protected]
      In article <[email protected]>, Steve White <[email protected]> wrote:
      In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Linda Fortney) wrote:
      Canada, the UK, France and every other western industrialized country negotiates lower drug prices with the pharmaceutical companies.
      And do you know why?Because (yes, I'll tell you :-)These countries force pharma to sell at their marginal cost -- the costof producing the 10,000,001st pill on the production line. They won'tallow pharma to roll in their R & D costs.
      Every country in the EU and Japan negotiates reasonable drug prices from the greedheads of big pharma. HMOs and insurance plans in the US negotiate lower prices. So, who is left to pay full freight? The ones who can least afford it, those without insurance, the poor and the working poor and the elderly. Big pharma's advertising costs are skyrocketing--up 22% in 2003 according to Standard and Poors. That 3.3 billion could be better spent cutting drug prices for the poor. Again according to S&P, drug costs have risen 12.4% annually more than 4 times the rate of inflation. Other health care costs are rising at a rate of 7% every year. Even Standard and Poor's hardly a bunch of wild eyed leftists called drug company prices "excessive." (S &P Industry Surveys Oct. 2004 vol 2.) The greedheads won't make flu vaccine for Americans because it might effect their excessive profits. Big pharm claims that these high prices are necessary to cover R and D costs. The truth is that in 2002 the top 10 US drug companies had a median profit margin of 17%. The median profit rate for other Fortune 500 industries is 3% The major companies spend less on R &D than they keep in profits and far less than they spend on marketing. Big pharm claims they bring out a steady stream of lifesaving drugs. Baloney. Of the 78 drugs approved by the FDA in 2002, only 17 were new chemical compounds and only 7 of the 17 were classified by the FDA as improvements over drugs on the market. The remaining 10 were fiddle faddle--change an unimportant ingreedient to hang onto the patent type stuff. The innovative drugs usually come from research at government or university labs, not from Big Pharm. As for doctor education and the stuffed spinal cords (I have seen one with my own eyes; it was part of the commplete set along with stuffed kidneys, lungs, all with anthropomorphized faces. Gag me) let alone the trips to exotic locales for docs for "educational programming" to convince practicioners that the new expensive drug is so much better than the old one. If physicians took responsibility for their own continuing ed and relied on double blind studies rather than industry sales pitches they might well perscribe more effective drugs. And don't give me the "we're so busy" rap. No one sponsors my continuing education. 17% profit rate and people suffer because they can't afford the **** drugs. I don't have proof but I can imagine some people are dying because of corporate greed.
      They definitely are. One young man's (early 40's - in the colon cancer bb I
      belong to) insurance company would not cover the exorbitant price of the
      newer colon cancer chemo drugs and he could not afford them. He died a year
      ago this month, leaving behind a wife and 7 year old daughter. I could go
      on - I've heard way to many horror stories. Excellent post btw.

      Kathy 1




      Comment


      • #18
        Thank God This is Being Approved


        Steve White <[email protected]> wrote in message
        news:[email protected]
        In article <[email protected]>, "kat" <[email protected]> wrote:
        There is a difference between profit and obscene profit. It is hard to justify (even considering R & D costs) when a single dose of a chemo drug such as Oxaiplaitin (sp?) can cost close to $8,000 (without negotiated rates) and the dose is generally a weekly one.
        How many hundreds of millions did they spend to create the drug and get it approved by the FDA? What did it cost the drug company to finance that over how many years? How many people will take it, and for how long? Once you know the answers to those questions, you can figure out whether the profit is "obscene" or not.

        It's an obscene cost - there is just no way to justify it despite the
        answers to the above questions. It is out of the reach of those without
        insurance, poor insurance, and even those with Medicare who can't afford the
        co-pay. Linda is right, people are dying because of corporate greed.

        Kathy 1


        Comment


        • #19
          Thank God This is Being Approved

          In article <[email protected]>,
          [email protected] (Linda Fortney) wrote:

          These countries force pharma to sell at their marginal cost -- thecost of producing the 10,000,001st pill on the production line. Theywon't allow pharma to roll in their R & D costs. Every country in the EU and Japan negotiates reasonable drug prices from the greedheads of big pharma.

          By putting a gun to their heads. I understand how that appeals to
          liberals, of course. Again, they force pharma to sell drugs at their
          marginal cost. That's why drugs in Canada cost less than the same drugs
          in the U.S. -- Canada DOESN'T ALLOW R & D to be considered.

          Again according to S&P, drug costs have risen 12.4% annually more than 4 times the rate of inflation. Other health care costs are rising at a rate of 7% every year.

          We docs like to get paid. So do nurses, etc.

          Pharma costs money. You want new life-saving drugs? Pay up.

          Even Standard and Poor's hardly a bunch of wild eyed leftists called drug company prices "excessive." (S &P Industry Surveys Oct. 2004 vol 2.)

          S&P should know better. It's a market economy.

          The greedheads won't make flu vaccine for Americans because it might effect their excessive profits.

          Fear of lawsuits is the problem, Linda, our good friends the lawyers
          have gutted the vaccine business. And that flu vaccine shortage this
          year was caused, in part, by the FDA decertifying a British company that
          was providing vaccine.

          Big pharm claims that these high prices are necessary to cover R and D costs. The truth is that in 2002 the top 10 US drug companies had a median profit margin of 17%. The median profit rate for other Fortune 500 industries is 3%

          Again, you have to offer a good return on investment if you're going to
          sell 10 year notes to cover your R & D. This isn't a mystery or an evil
          cabal. People will NOT invest in a company that engages in a risky
          endeavor (developing new drugs) unless the return is there.

          Big pharm claims they bring out a steady stream of lifesaving drugs. Baloney. Of the 78 drugs approved by the FDA in 2002, only 17 were new chemical compounds and only 7 of the 17 were classified by the FDA as improvements over drugs on the market.

          Yep, the pipeline is drying up, PRECISELY BECAUSE of the things you
          advocate.

          An example is AIDS. There are few drugs in the pipeline today compared
          to five years ago. Why? Because a few years back you left-liberal folks
          started talking about busting patents. African and Asian nations picked
          up on that and started threatening pharma companies. And the pharma
          companies said to themselves, "why the hell should we invest a billion
          dollars into new AIDS drugs if they're going to be taken away from us
          before we get our money back?

          Result: no new drugs.

          As a doc who treats patients with AIDS, this really angers me.


          The remaining 10 were fiddle
          faddle--change an unimportant ingreedient to hang onto the patent type stuff. The innovative drugs usually come from research at government or university labs, not from Big Pharm.

          Wrong, wrong, wrong. Universities do NOT develop drugs -- we are
          spectacularly unsuited to doing the grunt work of testing a thousand
          compounds, all very similar, to figure out which one is best. That is
          something Pharma does MUCH better. We do basic research and then do the
          applied research that spins off that. That's what NIH and universities
          do best. What Pharma does best is take these good ideas and develop
          drugs that work. It's a grunt business, patient, slow, methodical, that
          requires a lot of money and time.

          At my institution, to my knowledge there is not a single faculty person
          involved in direct drug research. We help test promising drugs in
          clinical trials, we do basic research that looks at new pathways and
          ideas, but we do NOT do drug development.

          If physicians took responsibility for their own continuing ed and relied on double blind studies rather than industry sales pitches they might well perscribe more effective drugs.

          That's a different argument.

          I don't have proof but I can imagine some people are dying because of corporate greed.

          I do have proof, and I make clear that big Pharma is saving countless
          lives every day.





          steve

          Comment


          • #20
            Thank God This is Being Approved

            In article <[email protected]>,
            Steve White <[email protected]> wrote:
            Again according to S&P, drug costs have risen 12.4% annually more than 4 times the rate of inflation. Other health care costs are rising at a rate of 7% every year.
            We docs like to get paid. So do nurses, etc.

            My, my, talk about ignoring the obvious. To point it out, drug prices are
            rising at a much greater rate than other health care costs.
            Even Standard and Poor's hardly a bunch of wild eyed leftists called drug company prices "excessive." (S &P Industry Surveys Oct. 2004 vol 2.)
            S&P should know better. It's a market economy.
            But capitalism only works if the captains of industry decide NOT to act
            like pirates. Greedy Big Pharm should raise the Jolly Roger over
            corporate headquarters. It's not a market economy, zShrub gave Big Pharm
            a huge chunk of corporate welfare with the Medicare drug bill.

            I notice that you chose to ignore the fact that your claim that government
            involvement in pricing would cause prices to skyrocket when I pointed out
            that the VA negotiates drug prices and it seems to work just fine. You
            also chose to ignore that I pointed out the fact that HMOs, insurance
            companies and every country in the industrialized world negotiates prices
            and the only people paying full freight are those who can least afford it,
            the poor, the working poor and the uninsured.
            The greedheads won't make flu vaccine for Americans because it might effect their excessive profits.
            Fear of lawsuits is the problem, Linda, our good friends the lawyershave gutted the vaccine business. And that flu vaccine shortage thisyear was caused, in part, by the FDA decertifying a British company thatwas providing vaccine.

            Not according to my sources. The formula has to be changed every year,
            the process of making the vaccine is time consuming and expensive, and
            there isn't much profit in it. Therefore big Pharm declines to perform a
            basic public health service. Who cares if some old people or babies die
            of an easily preventable disease?
            Our first loyalty is not to human
            decency but to the bottom line.


            The evil FDA decertified the company only after the British authorities
            found major problems with the factory. I don't like the notion of a
            contaminated vaccine killing people for a variety of reasons, not least
            among them that such would give the anti-vaccination nuts more ammunition.

            Big pharm claims that these high prices are necessary to cover R and D costs. The truth is that in 2002 the top 10 US drug companies had a median profit margin of 17%. The median profit rate for other Fortune 500 industries is 3%
            Again, you have to offer a good return on investment if you're going tosell 10 year notes to cover your R & D. This isn't a mystery or an evilcabal. People will NOT invest in a company that engages in a riskyendeavor (developing new drugs) unless the return is there.
            You actually justify a 17% profit margin when other large companies are
            content with 3%? That might seem just and reasonable to you, but it
            certainly does not to me.
            Yep, the pipeline is drying up, PRECISELY BECAUSE of the things youadvocate.An example is AIDS. There are few drugs in the pipeline today comparedto five years ago. Why? Because a few years back you left-liberal folksstarted talking about busting patents. African and Asian nations pickedup on that and started threatening pharma companies. And the pharmacompanies said to themselves, "why the hell should we invest a billiondollars into new AIDS drugs if they're going to be taken away from usbefore we get our money back?Result: no new drugs.

            Result of big Pharma not giving poor companies a reasonably priced Aids
            drug, dead people, orphaned children and more dead children. I applaud
            anyone who reverse engineers an AIDS drug and sells it to third world
            countries at cost. Marcuse said that we should work to make this a world
            where there are fewer murdered children. And, when children are murdered
            by corporate greed, so the rich can get even richer, anyone would be
            appalled.

            17% profit rate when other companies are content with 3%. And people
            suffer and die.

            I bring this up again, because you have ignored it as well. Burroughs
            Wellcome did just fine for decades as a not for profit. The profits they
            made were given to a foundation that did a great deal of good.

            As a doc who treats patients with AIDS, this really angers me.

            But corporate greed that denies drugs to people whose income is less than
            a dollar a day does not?

            do best. What Pharma does best is take these good ideas and developdrugs that work. It's a grunt business, patient, slow, methodical, thatrequires a lot of money and time.
            Aww, poor widdle Glaxo. 12 % profit rate rather than 13% It makes me
            want to weep.
            If physicians took responsibility for their own continuing ed and relied on double blind studies rather than industry sales pitches they might well perscribe more effective drugs.That's a different argument.
            It's all tied together. In the quest for more and more and more and more
            profit, big Pharm designs their advertising program to health
            practicioners, not to mention the seminars in the Bahamas. Less money
            spent on this kind of crap would mean that drug prices could be lowered.
            Consulting real scholarship instead of sales pitches from detail reps by
            docs would mean that patients got better care. With electronic
            information being so readily available to the desktop, there isn't even
            the excuse that a doc doesn't have time to go to the library.


            I also notice you chose to ignore the effect of tv advertising of drugs on
            patients. Doesn't it drive practicioners nuts to have to tell people
            patiently over and over again that XYZ that the patient saw on TV is not
            right for them?


            I don't have proof but I can imagine some people are dying because of corporate greed.
            I do have proof, and I make clear that big Pharma is saving countlesslives every day.
            And Kathy said a friend of hers died because he couldn't afford a drug his
            insurance company wouldn't pay for. And thousands in the third world have
            died of AIDS because big Pharm is so **** greedy.


            Linda

            Comment


            • #21
              Thank God This is Being Approved

              In article <[email protected]>,
              [email protected]d.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote:

              Again according to S&P, drug costs have risen 12.4% annually more than 4 times the rate of inflation. Other health care costs are rising at a rate of 7% every year.We docs like to get paid. So do nurses, etc. My, my, talk about ignoring the obvious. To point it out, drug prices are rising at a much greater rate than other health care costs.

              Yes, for now they are. I'm not ignoring it, it is what it is. Do I
              "like" it? Not really, but I'm quite chary of the "cure" you propose --
              you might kill the patient.

              I notice that you chose to ignore the fact that your claim that government involvement in pricing would cause prices to skyrocket when I pointed out that the VA negotiates drug prices and it seems to work just fine.

              Um, you distorted my argument. I said that government involvement (e.g.,
              the EU, or the VA in your example) can get a better price for
              THEMSELVES, but everyone else left in the market pays for it.

              The VA, using the power of government, hammers Pharma to the marginal
              cost and not the overall cost of developing and marketing a drug.
              Further (see below), the VA is a volume purchaser, and gets a better
              price than you do at the retail corner pharmacy. This is not unusual in
              the business / retail world. But to the extent that government goes
              beyond the usual discount for volume buying and demands an extra-good
              price, just for the privilege of letting a pharma company exist and do
              business, it distorts the market -- the pharma company has to get its
              return on investment elsewhere, or go out of business.

              You also chose to ignore that I pointed out the fact that HMOs, insurance companies and every country in the industrialized world negotiates prices and the only people paying full freight are those who can least afford it, the poor, the working poor and the uninsured.

              Again, you fail to acknowledge the reason for this: a big insurance
              company has purchasing clout.

              If you buy a loaf of bread at the corner market, you pay more (per loaf)
              than if you trundle down to Sams Club and buy a gross of loaves of
              bread. This has been retailing for a long time. An insurance company
              delivers x thousand of prescriptions per month, and the Pharma company
              says, okay, for that volume, we'll give you a better price.

              Fear of lawsuits is the problem, Linda, our good friends the lawyershave gutted the vaccine business. And that flu vaccine shortage thisyear was caused, in part, by the FDA decertifying a British companythat was providing vaccine. Not according to my sources. The formula has to be changed every year, the process of making the vaccine is time consuming and expensive, and there isn't much profit in it. Therefore big Pharm declines to perform a basic public health service.

              I think you gut your own argument: yes, the vaccine has to change every
              year and that costs R & D money. Yes, vaccine production is expensive.
              And yes, government acts as a monopsony (the US government certainly
              does, as it buys 100% of the vaccine needed in the USA and resells it to
              the docs and hospitals), and that caps the potential profit.

              Now throw on top of that new, unexpected costs -- escalating and
              unpredictable tort costs, for example -- and it's easy to see what big
              Pharma would decline to bend over and take one for the public.

              The evil FDA decertified the company only after the British authorities found major problems with the factory. I don't like the notion of a contaminated vaccine killing people for a variety of reasons, not least among them that such would give the anti-vaccination nuts more ammunition.

              Oh, no problem there, I don't like giving contaminated vaccine to
              patients. But if you remove 40% of the usual supply of vaccine, guess
              what happens in a market, supply-and-demand economy?

              C'mon, my friend, be honest -- you're a socialist at heart. Nuttin'
              wrong with that as long as one doesn't wig out, but you simply don't
              trust markets.

              Again, you have to offer a good return on investment if you're goingto sell 10 year notes to cover your R & D. This isn't a mystery oran evil cabal. People will NOT invest in a company that engages in arisky endeavor (developing new drugs) unless the return is there. You actually justify a 17% profit margin when other large companies are content with 3%? That might seem just and reasonable to you, but it certainly does not to me.

              First, in a market economy, what's "reasonable" to you and me isn't an
              issue. It's what they get. Second, remember their time line is longer,
              and the risk to investors is higher. You can invest $300 million in a
              new drug only to have the FDA decide (correctly and for good, medical
              reasons) right at the very end not to issue a new drug license.

              Poof -- your $300 million is gone.

              ****ed right that Pharma has to offer a better than average return to
              get investors to pony up that $300 mil.

              If you own a company that makes (for example) shoes, and your investment
              risk is that you might turn out a line of shoes that no one wants to
              buy, that risk is reflected in the profit you need to generate to
              attract investors. That risk is some lower than for Pharma -- in a short
              period of time you can retool your factory and make shoes that people
              will buy. Pharma can't do that -- if they invest in a new line of drug
              that turns out to be a complete bust, it takes years to get another
              product to market.

              It's simple: time = money. The longer your time line, the higher your
              rate of return has to be to be attractive in a market economy.

              An example is AIDS. There are few drugs in the pipeline todaycompared to five years ago. Why? Because a few years back youleft-liberal folks started talking about busting patents. Africanand Asian nations picked up on that and started threatening pharmacompanies. And the pharma companies said to themselves, "why thehell should we invest a billion dollars into new AIDS drugs ifthey're going to be taken away from us before we get our money back?Result: no new drugs. Result of big Pharma not giving poor companies a reasonably priced Aids drug, dead people, orphaned children and more dead children. I applaud anyone who reverse engineers an AIDS drug and sells it to third world countries at cost.

              Well okay, but kiss goodbye any new AIDS drugs. If you allow reverse
              engineering and sale at prices that cause the original Pharma developer
              to lose their investment, why in the world would they put another
              several hundred million dollars into a new AIDS drug?

              Result -- in ten years you'll have made no progress on AIDS, and people
              will continue to die. We'll make no progress on eliminating a horrible
              disease. As a physician, that is NOT acceptable.

              Burroughs Wellcome did just fine for decades as a not for profit. The profits they made were given to a foundation that did a great deal of good.

              That was one company in a unique circumstance in a by-gone era.

              I also notice you chose to ignore the effect of tv advertising of drugs on patients. Doesn't it drive practicioners nuts to have to tell people patiently over and over again that XYZ that the patient saw on TV is not right for them?

              Again, a different argument.





              steve

              Comment


              • #22
                Thank God This is Being Approved


                Steve White <[email protected]> wrote in message
                news:[email protected]

                <snip>
                Pharma costs money. You want new life-saving drugs? Pay up.

                New life-saving drugs aren't worth much if you can't afford them.



                <snip>


                Linda
                I don't have proof but I can imagine some people are dying because of corporate greed.
                Steve
                I do have proof, and I make clear that big Pharma is saving countless lives every day.

                Only those that can afford the meds.

                Kathy 1



                Comment


                • #23
                  Thank God This is Being Approved

                  In article <[email protected]>,
                  Steve White <[email protected]> wrote:
                  In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Linda Fortney) wrote:Um, you distorted my argument. I said that government involvement (e.g.,the EU, or the VA in your example) can get a better price forTHEMSELVES, but everyone else left in the market pays for it.
                  Gee, if the AMerican citizen, the only one left paying full freight
                  actually had their government on their side, negotiating decent prices
                  from these bandits, perhaps the greedheads would lower their prices to a
                  reasonable level and forgo their excessive profits.
                  I think you gut your own argument: yes, the vaccine has to change everyyear and that costs R & D money. Yes, vaccine production is expensive.And yes, government acts as a monopsony (the US government certainlydoes, as it buys 100% of the vaccine needed in the USA and resells it tothe docs and hospitals), and that caps the potential profit.
                  I guess the difference between you and me is that I think corporations are
                  supposed to be good citizens and care about something other than just the
                  bottom line.
                  C'mon, my friend, be honest -- you're a socialist at heart. Nuttin'wrong with that as long as one doesn't wig out, but you simply don'ttrust markets.
                  Another difference between you and me. No, I don't think the market is
                  the answer to all problems. I find the faith of some conservatives that
                  the
                  market will solve all problems if only left unfettered to be extremely
                  touching. The market might be able to solve some problems if it was
                  honest, but it ain't.


                  The fact is though, we're not talking about a free market. As
                  Rupa pointed out (thanks Rupa) big Pharm is an oligarchy. Where is TR the
                  Trust Buster when we really need him. And as I
                  pointed out, they receive huge amounts of corporate welfare.
                  You actually justify a 17% profit margin when other large companies are content with 3%? That might seem just and reasonable to you, but it certainly does not to me.First, in a market economy, what's "reasonable" to you and me isn't anissue. It's what they get.

                  As Rupa pointed out it is an oligarchy with precious little competition.
                  ****ed right that Pharma has to offer a better than average return toget investors to pony up that $300 mil.
                  17% profit rate, and people die because they can't afford drugs. That is
                  not obscene it is criminal.
                  Well okay, but kiss goodbye any new AIDS drugs. If you allow reverseengineering and sale at prices that cause the original Pharma developerto lose their investment, why in the world would they put anotherseveral hundred million dollars into a new AIDS drug?
                  Burroughs Wellcome did just fine for decades as a not for profit. The profits they made were given to a foundation that did a great deal of good.
                  That was one company in a unique circumstance in a by-gone era.

                  Sez you.


                  You keep on ignoring the advertising costs which are boosting drug
                  prices. They advertise for the same reason any other company
                  advertises--to increase sales. And their advertising costs exceed their R
                  and D costs.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thank God This is Being Approved

                    In article <[email protected]>,
                    [email protected] (Linda Fortney) wrote:

                    I guess the difference between you and me is that I think corporations are supposed to be good citizens and care about something other than just the bottom line.

                    Everyone is supposed to be a good citizen. The issue is how you DEFINE
                    what a good citizen is. Giving away one's money and product seems a bit
                    extreme to me, especially when the government makes you do it.

                    The English word for that is "extortion", as I recall. And too much
                    extortion causes companies to quit markets. Then we all suffer.

                    C'mon, my friend, be honest -- you're a socialist at heart. Nuttin'wrong with that as long as one doesn't wig out, but you simply don'ttrust markets. Another difference between you and me. No, I don't think the market is the answer to all problems. I find the faith of some conservatives that the market will solve all problems if only left unfettered to be extremely touching. The market might be able to solve some problems if it was honest, but it ain't.

                    Given a choice between markets and government mandates, I'll take
                    markets just about every time.

                    The fact is though, we're not talking about a free market. As Rupa pointed out (thanks Rupa) big Pharm is an oligarchy. Where is TR the Trust Buster when we really need him. And as I pointed out, they receive huge amounts of corporate welfare.

                    "Corporate welfare" is a charged left-liberal term, and it's also a a
                    different argument.

                    First, in a market economy, what's "reasonable" to you and me isn't anissue. It's what they get. As Rupa pointed out it is an oligarchy with precious little competition.

                    One of the reasons for a lack of competition is that the entry cost is
                    high. Remember, it's a half-billion dollars to develop a new drug. That
                    kind of money isn't easy to find. That's one reason why Pharma is
                    consolidating, to make raising that kind of money easier.

                    ****ed right that Pharma has to offer a better than average returnto get investors to pony up that $300 mil. 17% profit rate, and people die because they can't afford drugs. That is not obscene it is criminal.

                    No, it's life. A "17% profit" reflects the uncertain nature of drug
                    development, the very long period of time required to get a product to
                    market and get one's investment back, and the difficult nature of the
                    market. It is what it is. Do away with these profits and you won't have
                    any new drugs.

                    Again, the threat of government intervention and patent-busting is
                    already scaring off new drug development. You need to acknowledge that.

                    Burroughs Wellcome did just fine for decades as a not for profit. The profits they made were given to a foundation that did a great deal of good.That was one company in a unique circumstance in a by-gone era. Sez you.

                    So why didn't they keep going?

                    You keep on ignoring the advertising costs which are boosting drug prices. They advertise for the same reason any other company advertises--to increase sales. And their advertising costs exceed their R and D costs.

                    There is nothing wrong with advertising, and nothing wrong with
                    increasing sales -- increased sales mean that they can recoup their
                    investment and (in a free market) bring their prices down.

                    You seem to be fixated on this and you shouldn't be. Advertising is one
                    cost, R & D is another. You do whatever you need in each to get the job
                    done. Should we demand that the media charge less so that the
                    advertising costs go down? Demand that Pharma advertise less, thus
                    abridgiing their first amendment rights? Again, everything you propose
                    as a cure seems to be worse than the disease itself.

                    If you want more R & D, you have to have conditions such that the
                    companies will want to do it -- that is, they see a reason, in cold hard
                    cash at the end of the trail. Otherwise they'll put their money into a
                    surer investment, and advertising is one of those -- those ad dollars
                    generate sales and make money, and that's the name of the game.




                    steve

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Thank God This is Being Approved

                      In article <[email protected]>,
                      Steve White <[email protected]> wrote:
                      The English word for that is "extortion", as I recall. And too muchextortion causes companies to quit markets. Then we all suffer.
                      The English word for the way Big Pharm behaves is rampant greed. You
                      don't think a 17% profit rate is too high. I do.
                      Given a choice between markets and government mandates, I'll takemarkets just about every time.

                      But this isn't a true market. As Rupa pointed out it is an oligopoly. As
                      I pointed out, they receive corporate welfare in tremendous amounts. And
                      finally, the patents create a monopoly. The sacred, all powerful, we must
                      worship it market does not control prices in a monopoly situation.
                      "Corporate welfare" is a charged left-liberal term, and it's also a adifferent argument.

                      Anything you don't want to defend becomes a "different argument." The
                      notion that Medicare would not negotiate prices was a result of Big Pharm
                      lobbying, and a give away of tax money to obscenely rich corporations.
                      It also means that the all sacred, all powerful market is not operating
                      freely.

                      What shall we do Steve? Retun to the glory days of the Gilded Age?

                      Come back, Teddy Roosevelt, we have more trusts that need to be busted.

                      Linda

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Thank God This is Being Approved

                        In article <[email protected]>,
                        [email protected] (Linda Fortney) wrote:

                        But this isn't a true market. As Rupa pointed out it is an oligopoly.

                        There are about a dozen large Pharma companies and several dozen smaller
                        companies that are successfully putting product into the marketplace.
                        What part of that is the oligopoly?

                        It's a market that is hampered to some degree by the high entry cost. A
                        small Pharma company still needs to sell a couple hundred million
                        dollars of paper to have the cash needed to develop a new drug.

                        That's unavoidable. Research costs money, and developing a successful
                        drug costs a lot of money. Marketing that drug costs money.

                        This is just another rendition of the old left-liberal demonizing
                        against "Big Oil", "Big Steel", etc. Of course they're big, they're
                        global businesses.

                        As I pointed out, they receive corporate welfare in tremendous amounts. And finally, the patents create a monopoly. The sacred, all powerful, we must worship it market does not control prices in a monopoly situation.

                        I have no quarrel with ending any number of corporate tax breaks.
                        Successful industries don't need them.

                        See my comments about patents in my other response to you. Of course
                        patents create a =temporary= monopoly. That's expressly the point of a
                        patent.

                        "Corporate welfare" is a charged left-liberal term, and it's also a adifferent argument. Anything you don't want to defend becomes a "different argument."

                        Um, no, it's simply a different argument. I suppose we could argue about
                        it if you want.




                        steve

                        Comment

                        The LaborLawTalk.com forum is intended for informational use only and should not be relied upon and is not a substitute for legal advice. The information contained on LaborLawTalk.com are opinions and suggestions of members and is not a representation of the opinions of LaborLawTalk.com. LaborLawTalk.com does not warrant or vouch for the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any postings or the qualifications of any person responding. Please consult a legal expert or seek the services of an attorney in your area for more accuracy on your specific situation.
                        Working...
                        X