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  • #61
    Here's a fact that happens TODAY FOLKS

    Corporate bosses stell tens of millions of dollars every day.

    Corporate bosses cause the loss of billions of dollars to working people every day

    Corporate bosses earn wages on the order of 150 times what their average workers make.

    Why dont we just outlaw corporate bosses?

    Oh yeah, they are the largest contibutors to political campaigns BY FAR ( as previously discussed in this thread.

    Hey stagger, what do you make a year doing what you do? I bet you are much more well compensated for your activities than I am. I do this for free. You?

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by sposito View Post
      Here's a fact that happens TODAY FOLKS

      Corporate bosses stell tens of millions of dollars every day.

      Corporate bosses cause the loss of billions of dollars to working people every day

      Corporate bosses earn wages on the order of 150 times what their average workers make.

      Why dont we just outlaw corporate bosses?

      Oh yeah, they are the largest contibutors to political campaigns BY FAR ( as previously discussed in this thread.

      Hey stagger, what do you make a year doing what you do? I bet you are much more well compensated for your activities than I am. I do this for free. You?
      Wait a darn minute.

      When did it become illegal to make a profit? When did it become illegal to build a company and expect to be paid for that?

      This is what really sticks in my head.... Unions that come in and say, "the people that built this company make too much money... we should get more of it."

      Who is John Galt?
      Not everything that makes you mad, sad or uncomfortable is legally actionable.

      I am not now nor ever was an attorney.

      Any statements I make are based purely upon my personal experiences and research which may or may not be accurate in a court of law.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by sposito View Post
        Hey stagger, what do you make a year doing what you do? I bet you are much more well compensated for your activities than I am. I do this for free. You?
        And before you finish saddling that high horse, you should be prepared to discuss the number of union organizers that are making 6 and 7 figure salaries on the other side.

        http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/brenner020207.html

        Across Many Unions, Bloated Salaries Limit Organizing Budgets, Leave Members Cynical
        by Mark Brenner

        In today's labor movement it's hard to find a leader who doesn't stress the need for organizing new members. Judging by the size of their paychecks, however, some of labor's top brass aren't ready to put their money where their mouth is.

        According to data filed under the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act (LMRDA), the number of union officials and staff earning high salaries has skyrocketed in recent years. For example, the number of individuals earning over $100,000 a year more than doubled between 2000 and 2004 -- the latest year with complete data. Over the same period the number of officers and staff earning more than $150,000 increased 84 percent.

        Meanwhile private sector union density has fallen below eight percent, its lowest point in over a 100 years.

        In the run-up to the 2005 split in the AFL-CIO, discussion of excessive pay was noticeably absent, despite the focus of the Change to Win federation's founders on channeling unprecedented resources into organizing.

        Could the labor movement fund large-scale organizing by bringing high-flying salaries back down to earth? Absolutely, judging from an analysis of the LMRDA data. In 2004, for example, 5,646 individuals raked in a total of $733.6 million in salaries over $100,000, including multiple salaries, while 870 pulled down $181.7 million in salaries over $150,000.

        Looking at total compensation, which includes things like meal and housing allowances as well as reimbursements for other union-related expenses, the numbers are even larger. In 2004 there were 9,036 officers and staff who collected more than $100,000 in union funds, for a combined total of more than $1.2 billion. Setting the bar at $150,000, we still find 1,662 individuals who took home a total of $335 million that year.

        MISSED OPPORTUNITIES

        How much money could the labor movement save by imposing a salary cap and eliminating multiple salaries? Based on the 2004 data, a $100,000 salary cap coupled with a ban on multiple salaries would free up $170 million a year, while a cap of $150,000 would save $51 million. Capping total compensation at $100,000 would free up close to $300 million, while a $150,000 cap would save $86 million.

        This is definitely not chump change. For example, any of these scenarios would free up enough resources to double the $48 million that the AFL-CIO spent on organizing and member mobilization in 2004. The more aggressive approaches would generate enough resources to double (or even triple) the AFL-CIO's entire budget of $146 million that year.

        Several individual unions could also benefit from lower official salaries. The box below lists the 15 unions that stand to gain the most by limiting total compensation, with savings totaling as much as $200 million.

        Rank-and-file members are quick to see the benefits of limiting top salaries. When asked what the Teamsters could do with an additional $16.4 million, Frank Halstead, a Southern California warehouse worker and member of Teamsters Local 572, remarked: "Trucking is growing, while our strength in the industry in shrinking. With that kind of money to spend organizing non-union truck drivers, we could restore our power in the industry."

        Tony Perlstein, a member of International Longshoremen's Association Local 1588, was also clear about what an additional $8.6 million could mean for his union. Said Perlstein, "If we kept ILA officers' salaries in line with the members' salaries, our union would have the money we need to research and organize the logistics industry.

        "There would be resources to coordinate international solidarity between dockworkers. We could take on non-union logistics companies at the port. And there would be money available for a serious contract campaign -- with research, education, and mobilization -- when our current contract expires in 2010."

        DISCONNECTED FROM THE RANKS?

        Beyond the missed opportunities for strategic campaigns or new organizing, excessive salaries can also do lasting damage to union solidarity. Labor's top earners fall into the upper reaches of the U.S. income distribution, far removed from most rank-and-file members.

        For example, any official or staffer earning over $157,000 in 2004 found themselves among the richest five percent of American households. Meanwhile the average union member earned $43,000 that same year, placing them just above the median individual income of $36,500.

        The attached box gives a sense of just how wide this gap can get, presenting a list of the 20 highest paid officials in the labor movement in 2004.

        Donald Doser from the International Union of Operating Engineers (IUOE) was at the top of the heap that year. Doser pulled down $775,279 from two union salaries and, with allowances and reimbursed business expenses factored in, raked in a total of $807,626.

        Doser is not alone in the payola. Six other union officials received more than half a million dollars in union funds in 2004, with everyone in the top 20 pulling down more than $400,000. Half of the highest paid officials in the labor movement in 2004 also received more than one salary.

        With union members everywhere getting squeezed by employers, fat salaries for top officials only widen the gap between elected leaders and the rank and file. According to Halstead, "These bloated salaries are a glaring example of what's wrong with today's labor movement. Some of these officials make as much money as the CEOs.

        "With salaries like this they're out of touch with regular members. They are more worried about how their stocks are doing and where they're going to park their boat than how to win stronger contracts or organize new members."

        How Much Is Too Much?

        Estimated Savings by Union If Total Compensation Is Capped at $100,000

        Union/ Membership /Amount Saved
        National Education Association, NEA 2,698,504 $25,497,250
        Food and Commercial Workers, UFCW 1,338,625 $18,430,066
        Teamsters, IBT 1,350,000 $16,424,139
        Electrical Workers, IBEW 682,605 $15,044,397
        Teachers, AFT 816,300 $14,242,207
        Laborers, LIUNA 692,558 $13,638,037
        United Auto Workers, UAW 654,657 $12,417,463
        Operating Engineers, IUOE 388,804 $12,379,519
        Carpenters, CJA 524,237 $12,010,551
        Plumbers and Pipefitters, UA 324,557 $11,777,613
        Machinists, IAM 610,426 $10,851,699
        Air Line Pilots, ALPA 50,811 $9,626,014
        State, County and Municipal Employees, AFSCME 1,350,000 $9,416,160
        Longshoreman's Association, ILA 59,000 $8,673,604
        Transportation Communications, TCU/IAM 61,578 $6,619,187

        The Top 20: Labor's Highest Paid Officials

        Name/ Union/ Total Gross Salary/ Total Compensation/ Number of Union Salaries
        Donald Doser IUOE $775,279 $807,626 2
        Douglas Dority UFCW $633,793 $709,204 1
        John Bowers ILA $568,023 $590,194 2
        Terence O'Sullivan LIUNA $457,120 $553,559 2
        Gerald McEntee AFSCME $316,916 $551,428 1
        Duane Woerth ALPA $415,026 $550,729 1
        Albert Cernadas ILA $499,915 $532,719 2
        Robert Scardelletti TCU $298,658 $482,400 2
        Peter Devito, Sr. TCU $453,365 $469,249 1
        Edward Byrne TCU $453,365 $458,594 1
        Thomas O'Donnell IBT $398,203 $458,293 3
        Reg Weaver NEA $251,991 $445,869 1
        Jack Loveall UFCW $406,773 $445,459 2
        Edward Fire IUE/CWA $366,411 $445,325 1
        Robert Gleason ILA $383,012 $440,348 1
        Benny Holland ILA $348,099 $421,544 2
        John T. Niccollai UFCW $413,407 $417,326 1
        Dennis Martire LIUNA $357,686 $416,265 2
        Sandra Feldman AFT $276,050 $402,658 1
        Michael Sullivan SMWIA $257,996 $400,605 2

        Note: This list excludes officers and staff associated with professional athletics unions as well as those affiliated with movie or television production unions. All data is from 2004
        Not everything that makes you mad, sad or uncomfortable is legally actionable.

        I am not now nor ever was an attorney.

        Any statements I make are based purely upon my personal experiences and research which may or may not be accurate in a court of law.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by cyjeff View Post
          Wait a darn minute.

          When did it become illegal to make a profit? When did it become illegal to build a company and expect to be paid for that?

          This is what really sticks in my head.... Unions that come in and say, "the people that built this company make too much money... we should get more of it."

          Who is John Galt?

          And you mean to say that employees didn't build the companies they work for. Those same employees that you think dont have a right to have a bigger share of the profits are the ones that without the companies wouldnt even exist.

          Let me know the last time a CEO actually created something, anything.

          I'm really tired of this garbage. You people hate the working class and if you had it your way there would be no economic middle class.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by sposito View Post
            And you mean to say that employees didn't build the companies they work for. Those same employees that you think dont have a right to have a bigger share of the profits are the ones that without the companies wouldnt even exist.

            Let me know the last time a CEO actually created something, anything.

            I'm really tired of this garbage. You people hate the working class and if you had it your way there would be no economic middle class.
            Bill Gates.

            Don't even try this semantic garbage on me... if I don't swallow your premise hook, line and sinker than I am somehow against all working class folks... of which I happen to be one.

            I tell you what. I will follow your lead on tying CEO benefits to the amount the lowest worker makes when Union leadership incentives is tied to the amount the lowest worker makes.

            Until then, go mind your own garden before you tell me what I should be planting.
            Not everything that makes you mad, sad or uncomfortable is legally actionable.

            I am not now nor ever was an attorney.

            Any statements I make are based purely upon my personal experiences and research which may or may not be accurate in a court of law.

            Comment


            • #66
              Michael Dell

              Martha Stewart

              Donald Trump

              Jenny Craig

              The list goes on and on and on and on.....
              HOOK 'EM HORNS!!!
              How do you catch a very rare rabbit?
              (unique up on him)
              How do catch an ordinary rabbit?
              (same way)

              Comment


              • #67
                Since we have now reached the point of simply repeating the same points over and over, and I am referring to both sides of the issue on this, I think it's time you guys starting wrapping this up.
                The above answer, whatever it is, assumes that no legally binding and enforceable contract or CBA says otherwise. If it does, then the terms of the contract or CBA apply.

                Comment


                • #68
                  C'mon CBG... we were almost at the "neener neener" phase...
                  Not everything that makes you mad, sad or uncomfortable is legally actionable.

                  I am not now nor ever was an attorney.

                  Any statements I make are based purely upon my personal experiences and research which may or may not be accurate in a court of law.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by cyjeff View Post
                    Bill Gates.

                    Don't even try this semantic garbage on me... if I don't swallow your premise hook, line and sinker than I am somehow against all working class folks... of which I happen to be one.

                    I tell you what. I will follow your lead on tying CEO benefits to the amount the lowest worker makes when Union leadership incentives is tied to the amount the lowest worker makes.

                    .
                    Finally, some sense. I agree. Its a deal

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by sposito View Post
                      Here's a fact that happens TODAY FOLKS

                      Corporate bosses stell tens of millions of dollars every day.

                      Corporate bosses cause the loss of billions of dollars to working people every day

                      Corporate bosses earn wages on the order of 150 times what their average workers make.

                      Why dont we just outlaw corporate bosses?

                      Oh yeah, they are the largest contibutors to political campaigns BY FAR ( as previously discussed in this thread.

                      Hey stagger, what do you make a year doing what you do? I bet you are much more well compensated for your activities than I am. I do this for free. You?
                      Well....at least Joe tries to post case law to support his view. Please show the board where corporate bosses steal millions of dollars every day. I'll make it easy...please show the convictions or even charges for any 10 straight days where corporate bosses stole millions.

                      While you are at it, please show the proof where corporate bosses cost workers billions every day. If your words are true you should have no problem showing us the convictions for last week which should add up to at least $10B (I made it easy for you and only used a 5 day work week).

                      I have never said what I do for a living. Joe has his mind made up but hey...let's not let facts stand in the way of a good debate.

                      Finally....speaking of facts. In post 77 you tell us that you've been a union official for 25 years and have made $12,000. In post 86 you tell us that you do this for free. Which is it?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Joe, you've not supplied one bit of evidence to support your statements on #1, 3 & 4. We both agree that the actions you describe in 1, 3 & 4 are illegal. This leaves us with two choices. Either the percentages you quote are BS or...... it is true and unions are either incompetent or really don't care enough about employees to file and win the charge. Which is it?

                        On a positive note, we both agree that 2 & 5 are perfectly legal.
                        Last edited by staggerwingbeech; 09-03-2007, 10:35 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Gosh you got me Joe. One of my posts you quoted above was in fact incorrect. In post 85 I said union bosses stole 2 million. I apologize, it was 5 million.

                          http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Jan16.html
                          Last edited by staggerwingbeech; 09-03-2007, 11:05 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            So in the interests of quenching your passion for knowledge on my posts Joe, I will offer the following proof to my post 85 below.

                            [QUOTE=staggerwingbeech;910873]OK folks...here are the indisputable facts.

                            Unions are places where people get hurt, beaten, killed and get their dues used to keep the union bosses living in high style. These are not stories about what happened in the 1920's....it's happening today.

                            Teacher union bosses stealing $2M of the members money, Teamsters killing people, UAW terrorists threatening to kill members, Labors Union members throwing bricks with explosives through employees windows, UNITE organizers beating people, Teamsters throwing Molotov ****tails and pipe bombs, Mine Workers union members killing a member, IBEW members shooting at people.

                            It's just a fact....unions use violence on a daily basis. If you make the mistake of speaking your mind, you'll run into someone who believes it's OK to "Crack Skulls".


                            1. The union bosses stealing the 5 million was proven by the audit linked on my previous post.
                            2. Teamsters killing people? Too easy... http://www.wkrn.com/nashville/news/c...ter/108130.htm
                            3. UAW terrorists? http://www.nrtw.org/b/nr_33.php
                            4. Unite organizers beating people? http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock060903.asp
                            5. Mine workers killing....just look up Eddie York

                            It goes on and on doesn't it? If you'd like the proof on union members threatening to "crack skulls"....simply review your posts.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I would like to once again encourage you to wrap things up.

                              It should be fairly clear by now that neither of you is going to convince the other. If either of you has any new information to provide, now is the time to do it. Otherwise, continuing to repeat the same points over and over is a waste of everyone's time.
                              The above answer, whatever it is, assumes that no legally binding and enforceable contract or CBA says otherwise. If it does, then the terms of the contract or CBA apply.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Now I know why sposito is so cranky. He works for a union for 25 years and gets $12k total (or zero depending on which post you believe).....the teachers union boss walks off with $5,000,000.

                                Comment

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