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  • #46 are pushing the limits
    Correct, as usual cbg. Lost my cool for a moment.......sorry.....think i'll step away from this nuclear rhetoric exchange and do something meaningfull with my help another shop organize.....and another....and another......


    • #47
      Organizing workers to make sure they have the best conditions is not only applaudable but completely and utterly legal.

      My question keeps coming back to "Why do you need a union to do it?"

      Well, you say, it has to do with the political stick that a union can swing. Joe and I talked about that in the other thread... and even Joe said that he didn't agree with every political action the union was taking. So the union doesn't necessarily speak for all the members on all matters... but certainly promises all of the member votes.

      How about the experience that a learned union representative can bring to the table in labor relations? Valid point. However, if an employer brings in a learned anti-union representative, they are accused of union busting. In a "level playing field", how can one side be allowed to have access to limitless legal, emotional and political support and the other is only allowed to draw upon current resources?

      Well, what about the financial clout available in time of a strike? True... but first, how much is really paid? Thousands per week? Hundreds?

      Collective bargaining is an excellent way to establish equality in the workplace... because both sides have the same want to make the company successful and both sides need the other to make that happen. When you introduce outside influence that doesn't care about making any company in particular go out of business, then you have lost equality.

      My question is this. Why pay unions?
      Not everything that makes you mad, sad or uncomfortable is legally actionable.

      I am not now nor ever was an attorney.

      Any statements I make are based purely upon my personal experiences and research which may or may not be accurate in a court of law.


      • #48
        Originally posted by joec
        Ok lets look the other sides posts ;"Union Pushers" ,"union thugs", "terrorist","dullest of bulbs","thugs",and "rubes". Do you see how I could find that warning favoring the opinion of the (insert what you want).
        and I apologize for the use of the word rubes...

        It was meant as a reference to the old carny saying, but I can see where it would have been taken as an insult to workers and for that I am profoundly sorry.
        Not everything that makes you mad, sad or uncomfortable is legally actionable.

        I am not now nor ever was an attorney.

        Any statements I make are based purely upon my personal experiences and research which may or may not be accurate in a court of law.


        • #49
          In 2000, business PAC contributions were split 42 percent for Democrats, 57 percent for Republicans.

          Unions "split" their contributions with 94 percent going to Democrats, 6 percent to Republicans.

          Even a child can figure out that unions are bribing politicans in an attempt to purchase the election victories they cannot win under the current law.


          • #50
            And if you are interested in the other ways unions use their members dues's a prime example;

            The Washington (District of Columbia) Teachers Union president Barbara Bullock -- along with a small group of co-conspirators -- bilked $5 million from the members between 1995 and 2002.

            Bullock began wearing custom-made dresses and carrying handbags by Louis Vuitton and Chanel. She bought an exercise bike and treadmill. After shedding the pounds, Bullock was forced to buy a new wardrobe. In time, she would spend $150,000 at Neiman Marcus, $20,000 at wigmaker Orreon Styles, and upwards of $500,000 at a dress shop near Baltimore.

            WTU members' money was used for luxury items including fur, silver, art, jewelry, custom-made clothes, and improper political donations to the Democratic National Committee and the U.S. Senate campaign of Hilary Rodham Clinton.

            The conspiracy even included the creation of a fraudulent company, "Expressions Unlimited," created by a son-in-law of Bullock aide Gwendolyn Hemphill. Expressions Unlimited laundered more than $480,000 from the teachers' union.

            The last straw came in the summer of 2002 when Bullock, apparently short of cash, instructed the DC public schools to increase the monthly dues deductions from 5,000 teachers. The monthly deductions should have increased by $16, but WTU told the DC public schools to hike the dues by $160. When teachers protested, the scam started to unravel.

            Apparently, unions need the EFCA to build back enough funds to support futher activity of this nature.


            • #51
              More WTU info.....

              Barbara Bullock (the Union President) racked up $1.8 million in unauthorized credit card charges and an additional $381,000 in illicit payments.

              Gwendolyn Hemphill, an aide to Bullock, spent $492,000 in unauthorized credit card charges and checks.

              James Baxter, the treasurer of the WTU, made $537,000 in credit card purchases and illicit payments.

              Leroy Holmes was a chauffeur employed by the WTU. He cashed $1.2 million in improper checks for other conspirators and received an annual "salary" of $105,000 -- higher than any WTU official other than Bullock.

              Michael Martin (Hemphill's son-in-law) and Errol Adelman operated the company "Expressions Unlimited," which billed the union for $483,000 in fraudulent expenses.

              Now that I think of it...I have this all wrong and must congratulate unions on one of the largest con jobs in history.

              Only in America could a group get people to join their club, pay them dues for doing nothing, steal them blind......and then use their dues to bribe the politicans to make it eaiser for them to steal more money from employees.

              Now here is something we can all probably agree on. Our nations teachers are terribly underpaid.

              Other than the happiness in knowing that their union president had a really good $100k chauffeur....what exactly has this union done for the teachers?


              • #52
                Joe, how about just using his screen name?

                Stagger, the sarcasm is getting a little old.
                The above answer, whatever it is, assumes that no legally binding and enforceable contract or CBA says otherwise. If it does, then the terms of the contract or CBA apply.


                • #53
                  Investigators from the FBI and Miami-Dade's Public Corruption Task Force raided the powerful United Teachers of Dade headquarters at the end of April. In July, they raided the Tallahassee home of the union president Pat Tornillo.

                  Tornillo finally confessed to massive looting of teachers’ union dues. The longtime leader of the Miami-Dade County teachers union who had been accused of billing the union for $650,000 of luxuries, pleaded guilty to filing a false tax return and mail fraud in exchange for a two-year prison sentence. Court records showed he billed the union for four Caribbean vacations, several cruises, a trip to the 2000 Olympics in Sydney and other first-class travel expenses.”

                  Tornillo’s union and its local affiliates donated nearly $300,000 to the state Democrat Party, plus more than $50,000 in in-kind donations and more than $15,000 in direct contributions to its favored (and ultimately losing) candidate, Bill McBride. Tornillo lent the McBride campaign two top union officials and secretly spent more than $2 million on McBride political ads.

                  When he wasn’t bullying union members into sending students home with notes endorsing Democrat candidates and causes, Tornillo oversaw a disastrous spending binge on real estate and used the union's political and economic clout to secure lucrative construction and insurance contracts for cronies.

                  Miami Herald reporters unearthed records showing “how Tornillo lived the life of royalty on the union's dime, expensing everything from round-the-world vacations, $20,000 hotel bills and antique furniture. The union also paid for his phone, cable and power bills, his housekeeper and his home insurance.”

                  While teachers pleaded for pay increases, Tornillo used their union dues (at $843 per year, they’re the highest in the nation) to buy tailored suits from Hong Kong and matching python-print pajamas from Neiman-Marcus for his wife and himself.

                  After Tornillo returned in 1995 from an extravagant African safari junket with executives of a troubled health maintenance organization, Health Insurance Plan of Greater New York, he awarded the company a $195 million insurance contract to the firm against the recommendation of union staff.

                  Does this example make you want to support an Act that eliminates secret ballot elections? More examples of this are coming if we allow this Act to pass.


                  • #54

                    Yeah, all union offical are horrible people.

                    I've been a union offical for over 25 years and have pulled in a whopping 12 thousands dollars in pay. I know, I am in it for my own benefit.

                    CEO's rack in salaries in the millions of dollars as a matter of course. It is common for a CEO for a fortune 500 company to make a salary of more than 10 million dollars a year.

                    And lets not forget when they manipulate financial reports that end up ruining tens of thousands of lives.



                    I've made my points. My 17 year old son read these posts and he has identified you as being full of ****.

                    Have a great life.


                    • #55

                      Martin Maddaloni and Thomas Patchell (international president and international secretary of the 325,000-member United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters) were ordered to pay $10.8 million in reimbursements and penalties.

                      They were permanently expelled from the union and fined $700,000 and $400,000 respectively.

                      Maddaloni had pledged the union's treasury "...for a 20 million dollar loan for his friends and acquaintances so that they could purchase the Clarion Hotel in Hollywood Florida. He also personally profited in an improper stock dealt at the expense of the UA and its members.

                      There are those on this thread that would have the world believe that all unions are great and all problems go away when you sign the authorization card.

                      Sorry it's just not reality. According to you, you made $480 a year for 25 years, these guys stole millions from the union members pockets.


                      • #56
                        How about that Laborers Union? Seems the wife of one union official, who was hired to come into the office twice a week to listen to voice mail messages from members about benefits. She received $111,799 for 2 days a week work in a year where she responded to 109 phone calls.

                        Then there was the accountant who paid his mother-in-law $650 a week for part-time work as a bookkeeper while charging the local's pension and welfare funds $182,000 a year for her services.

                        And the business partner of another official who was hired as the office manager of a satellite office at the Jersey Shore and paid $123,500 to supervise two people.

                        These officals defrauded the union members of more than $2,000,000.

                        LIUNA trustees said Local 734 was riddled with no-show jobs and ill-defined, overpaid positions -- many of them connected to former executive board member August "Auggie" Vergalito, who left the local after he pleaded guilty in 1997 to unlawfully concealing payments he made from the welfare and educational fund. Among those who benefited included his wife, a daughter, three sons-in-law, a former son-in-law and two business associates, the lawsuit claimed.

                        The hearing officer also raised questions about the local's connections to organized crime. According to Vaira, Vergalito was observed by an FBI surveillance team entering the Soho Grand Hotel in New York about the same time as Dominick Cirillo, identified then as the acting boss of the Genovese crime family. He said Vergalito was seen at the hotel on at least 13 separate occasions in 1999 -- often on Wednesdays -- and was seen in the company of Cirillo at the hotel bar at least once.

                        Does anyone want a law where these guys can use their connections with the Genovese crime family to intimidate people into signing cards without the protection of a secret ballot election?


                        • #57
                          Joec quote
                          1. 30% of employers fire pro-union workers.
                          2. 91% of employers force employees to attend one-on-one anti-union meetings with their supervisors.
                          3. 51% of employers coerce workers bribes or special favors.
                          4. 49% of employers threaten to close a work site when workers try to form a union, but only 2% actually do.
                          5. 82% of employers hire Anti Union consultants to fight union organizing drives.

                          OK Joe....perhaps you might give us proof on your info. And by proof, I mean legitimate, non-biased evidence, not some BS statistic pumped out by the afl-cio. Lets take them one at a time.

                          Number 1. Firing employees soley because they support a union is illegal. If and when it happens, the union files a ulp and the nlrb brings the employee back to work. Are you telling us that there are records of the nlrb bringing back fired employees in 30% of all union drives each year? You and I both know this is not true.

                          Number 2. Completely legal. Employers have the legal right to have meetings, the counter balance is that unions have the right to visit employees at home, employers do not.

                          Number 3. As with number 1, this would be illegal. Are you actually claiming that the nlrb records indicate that 51% of all elections result in ulps that prove 51% of all employers bribe employees. Sorry...once again this is a complete lie.

                          Number 4. Again...a complete lie. Threatening a plant closure during an election would result in a bargaining order for the employer. Are you actually telling us that 49% of all elections result in a Gissel order issued by the nlrb?

                          Number 5. Absolutely! But Joe....unions have tons of lawyers on staff that handle the legal issues for unions in organizing drives. They also have professional organizers on staff that are tasked with "selling" the union to the unsuspecting employees. Why it is perfectly OK for unions to use lawyers and organizers get so riled up when employers do the same?

                          Joe.....have you actually ever been involved in a union organizing drive?


                          • #58
                            Unions want to end the right of employees to make their choice in a secret ballot election. Does any right thinking person believe it is proper to end this protection and allow people that are described below to force employees into compelled unionization through tactics of fear, vioence and intimidation?

                            In an August 6, 1997 letter, Houston Police Patrolmen's Union president Terry Martin urged his 1,100 members to "help our union brothers and sisters" in a Teamsters's strike against United Parcel Service. Martin asked them to target UPS trucks with non-union drivers.

                            "Go out there and deal with the 'scabs' in the 'zero tolerance' mode that all criminals deserve to be treated with," he wrote. "Whenever the UPS strike ends I will let you know so that we may end our 'zero tolerance' against the 'scabs.'"
                            According to media accounts, 2,193 incidents of union violence occurred nationally between 1991 and 2001.

                            Labor Ready manager Matthew Kahn helped guide replacement workers to Hollander Home Fashions after its Los Angeles-area plant was struck by the Union of Needletrades, Industrial and Textile Employees in March 2001. Ramiro Hernandez and several UNITE organizers ambushed Kahn on May 18, 2001 in Labor Ready's parking lot. Khan suffered a concussion and multiple head lacerations.

                            The International Brotherhood of Teamsters was on strike against Overnite Transportation between October 1999 and October 2002. In Overnite's resulting RICO lawsuit against the Teamsters, Memphis-based federal District Court Judge Bernice Donald said that 55 shootings and additional brick and projectile attacks against Overnite's non-striking drivers were "related to attempted murder."

                            20-year Overnite employee William Wonder was shot in the abdomen while driving a company vehicle near Memphis, Tennessee on December 1, 1999.

                            "Overnite bears a heavy responsibility here," Teamsters president James Hoffa Jr. said in a statement that appeared to capitalize on Wonder's near-fatal injuries. "Overnite can end this strike at a moment's notice with a binding agreement."

                            To date, no one has paid for shooting William Wonder.

                            As David C. Horn, vice president and general counsel of AK Steel Corporation, testified before the House Education and Workforce Committee last September 26, negotiations with the United Steelworkers of America and AK's Mansfield, Ohio plant faltered in March, 1999. A company billboard soon sported a poster that read:

                            Wanted — good reliable small arms, unused explosives (C-4 preferred) names and addresses of all salary employees. Payback time!

                            The following September 25, Horn testified, "two, 1-gallon explosive devices with nails are found on plant property. The fuses had been lit but failed to detonate the devices."

                            After a Molotov ****tail burned beside an oxygen-hauling truck near the facility that October 15, one of two pipe-bombs tossed into the plant exploded the following November 11, luckily injuring nobody.

                            On December 6, 9, and 11, 1999, the home mailboxes of three salaried AK employees exploded. On the 11th, another bomb damaged an S&S Transportation truck that indirectly supplied AK scrap metal, injuring Jamie King of Leesville, Ohio, then 22, who was asleep inside the vehicle. She temporarily ended up on crutches.

                            After additional violence, a union representative anonymously told a reporter for a July 18, 2000 story: AK's "going to get somebody killed by not coming to the [negotiating] table.


                            • #59
                              This is why unions are trying to change the law and eliminate secret ballot elections. Does anyone with a brain think it's wise to let people like this a way to force employees into a union without the protection of an election?

                              U.S. District Court for the Western District of New York judge, on December 20, “sentenced former Laborers’ International Union of North America Local 91 president Mark Congi to 15 years in federal prison for racketeering conspiracy.

                              “In August 2006, Congi and three other former Local 91 officials abruptly entered guilty pleas in the middle of their trial on racketeering and extortion charges. The trial followed a lengthy federal investigation of the 700-member union. A total of 20 Local 91 officers and members have been prosecuted as a result of the investigation. They were accused of using verbal and physical intimidation and property destruction to force contractors and owners to employ the union’s members.

                              “According to a Dec. 21 article in the Tonawanda News, Congi headed a ‘Goon Squad’ of Local 91 members who were ‘prepared to engage in acts of violence and property destruction against non-union contractors and even members of other unions.’

                              “The New York Times also reported last August that four Local 91 members — acting on the order of Congi — threw two bricks taped with explosives through the window of an apartment housing four non-union craftworkers. One craftworker suffered permanent hearing loss as a result of the attack.”


                              • #60
                                OK are the indisputable facts.

                                Unions are places where people get hurt, beaten, killed and get their dues used to keep the union bosses living in high style. These are not stories about what happened in the 1920''s happening today.

                                Teacher union bosses stealing $2M of the members money, Teamsters killing people, UAW terrorists threatening to kill members, Labors Union members throwing bricks with explosives through employees windows, UNITE organizers beating people, Teamsters throwing Molotov ****tails and pipe bombs, Mine Workers union members killing a member, IBEW members shooting at people.

                                It's just a fact....unions use violence on a daily basis. If you make the mistake of speaking your mind, you'll run into someone who believes it's OK to "Crack Skulls".

                                Passing the EFCA would eliminate the last chance for employees to speak their mind in a secret ballot election. If passes, the people who make it their business to threaten, bomb, steal and kill will be knocking on your door some day.


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