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PIP and Unemployment in California

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  • Betty3
    replied
    Agree in that I'm sure most employers ("might" be a few that don't - doubtful though) have an "immediate out" for them re the probationary period if they want/need to let the employee go before then.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.J. Brown
    replied
    Every PIP I have written has language that says they will be on a probationary period for x days (usually 30-60 days) and includes an immediate out for the company - "if we do not see not immediate & sustained improvement, we may take disciplinary action, up to and including termination." It does not guarantee employment for that time period - it just states that if things are improving, we'll review where we are at that point to see if the employee is meeting expectations. I have fired someone 2 weeks into a 60-day PIP.

    Signing the PIP means you got a copy, you read it, you were at the meeting when it was presented to you, etc. It does not mean "I agree with everything they're saying about me." For what it's worth, I don't even bother having anyone sign them at my company. I have a witness in the meeting who takes notes of everything, and has seen me hand them a copy of the PIP to take with them. No one has to dispute anything.

    It is a very good idea to look for work now, while you're still employed. However, I would not tell them to shove it. Handle things professionally, even if they have not. It will reflect well on you if you take the high road here.

    Good luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • Betty3
    replied
    Agree that your employer doesn't even have to give you a month before firing you when on a PIP (if that is what you thought) unless that is what the PIP definitely says.

    Even if you are fired before a month is up, the state will still decide in the same way whether you qualify for UI - reason for termination, do you qualify financially etc.

    Once again, good luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbg
    replied
    I can't promise you a month before termination; unless the way the PIP is worded not only provides an absolute guarantee of a full month before the employer can take any action, but also creates a contractual obligation for them to wait the full month, they can fire you in less than a month if they don't see evidence of improvement on your part.

    Let me give you an example, and I'm deliberately making it simple so that you can understand what I mean. Let's say your job is to make widgets, and you're supposed to make 300 widgets a month, which averages to 75 widgets a week. However, you've only been making 200 widgets a month, or 50 widgets a week. Your PIP says you have to immediately start making 300 widgets a month, but does not specifically state that you have to make 75 a week. You continue making only 50 a week, with the plan of making 100 a week the last two weeks to get caught up and have your 300 made during the month. But at the end of the first two weeks, what your employer sees is that nothing has changed. Unless the PIP expressly and contractually states that you MUST have the full month before they can take action, it would be entirely legal for your employer to say, okay, you haven't made any effort to improve so you're out the door today. They do not have to listen to your protest that your intent was to make all the additional widgets in the second two weeks - if in their opinion you are not following through on what they want to see, they can let you go right away without waiting. And it's their perception of whether you're improving, not yours, that counts.

    However, even in that case, it's very, very doubtful that you'd lose your unemployment. If you went in and swore that you'd done your job to the best of your ability, and the employer could not prove conclusively that you were just goofing off, you'd still qualify. It's not whether you did or did not sign the PIP that's going to determine your unemployment status. It's whether the employer can show to the satisfaction of the UI commission that you were DELIBERATELY failing to perform.

    Leave a comment:


  • Betty3
    replied
    You're welcome - good luck to you.

    Leave a comment:


  • buckner94
    replied
    thanks

    I appreciate your input and thank you. I recently signed and sent over to my HR. I want to just ensure that I can get unemployment and that I have a month to let other job opportunities happen before I depart this miserable place. Yes there has been no gross misconduct on my part and I have absolutely made sure of that! Thanks for your advice, much appreciated.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbg
    replied
    I don't know where "all over the internet" they're telling you not to sign a PIP, but I'll bet it's neither lawyers nor HR professionals telling you that. You can be fired, very very legally, for a refusal to sign. Remember, signing is not saying that you agree that you've performed poorly or badly but that you have been advised of management's view on the matter. I cannot think of a single benefit to a refusal to sign, and I can think of plenty of benefits to signing. A better shot at keeping your job being first and foremost.

    As far as getting unemployment if you are fired after signing a PIP, poor performance is rarely if ever, in any state, a valid reason to disqualify you for benefits. For you to be declined for unemployment after being fired for poor performance, the employer would have to make a clear and convincing case that you were DELIBERATELY performing poorly; that you could have performed to standard and deliberately chose not to. That's a very high burden for the employer to have to reach. Refusal to sign a PIP, however, can be classified as insubordination, and that is not a happy thing to have on your record if you want unemployment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Betty3
    replied
    You don't have to sign the PIP but if you don't, generally your employer can discipline you up to & including termination if you don't. I'm not sure if you are saying the PIP is saying it is optional to sign or the internet. You do what your employer says to do.

    Yes, it's possible to get UI if you are on a PIP & get fired one month later. The state will decide if you qualify. They will look at the reason for your termination, if you qualify financially etc. & make a decision.
    Last edited by Betty3; 05-29-2014, 04:08 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • buckner94
    started a topic PIP and Unemployment in California

    PIP and Unemployment in California

    Hi All,

    So yesterday I was given a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan) by my employer of 8 months. I have not signed it yet as I read all over the internet do not sign it, and it clearly states that it is optional to sign. I was wondering if anybody had any experience with this and with signing or not? Also has anybody received a PIP and then one month later got fired/let go and was still able to received unemployment in the state of CA? I know that basically unless you do something that is listed as "gross misconduct" you should get unemployment paid out to you in the state. Just wanted to know if this is true and thanks in advance. I was not shocked as my employer is always rating and judging our team and i just had a bad feeling from day one at this place. Luckily so far I have been interviewing the entire time I have been here and should hopefully be getting a job offer soon, Hopefully so i can stick it to my employer and beat them to the punch and tell them to shove it along with that. Any advice or experience in this and thoughts or expertise would be greatly appreciated.

    Regards,.
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