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Thread: Do you have to pay into Social Security?

  1. #1
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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it?
    Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance

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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    On 6 Sep 2003 19:07:26 -0700, petersen_cp@hotmail.com (Chris Petersen)
    wrote:
    Do you have to pay into Social Security?
    Yes, If you are an "employee" who earns "wages" that the tax on your
    wages is mandatory.

    There are a number of exceptions to what is an "employee" earning
    "wages," so if you think your situation is at all unusual, please post
    the particulars so that people can tell if the exceptions might apply.


    **Dan Evans
    **I post information, not advice.

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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Chris Petersen wrote:>>
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks in advance
    About the only way out is to be self employed. Employers are required to
    take the amount of your paycheck. Check with the source. I believe it's
    called the "internal revenue service" [ IRS ].




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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?


    "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message news:bjeikl0dvt@enews3.newsguy.com...
    Chris Petersen wrote:>>
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
    About the only way out is to be self employed. Employers are required to take the amount of your paycheck. Check with the source. I believe it's called the "internal revenue service" [ IRS ].
    If you are self-employed and have to do a Schedule C, the next thing you are
    required to do is complete a Schedule SE to compute your FICA and Medicare
    Tax. The tax rate is double that of an employee, since a self-employed
    person pays both the employee part and the employer tax.

    About the only way left to not pay social security tax is to work for a
    state or local government that was exempt prior to the changes under the
    Reagan administration, and then you pay into a different pension plan.

    Roger R.



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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Chris Petersen wrote:
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
    There is a form to refuse SS benefits, but you still have to pay SS
    taxes.
    --
    "A belief is not merely an idea the mind possesses;
    it is an idea that possesses the mind." Robert Bolton
    Criswell The Psychic Weatherman
    ssenate@mindless.com



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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    "Chris Petersen" <petersen_cp@hotmail.com> wrote
    Do you have to pay into Social Security?
    As an employee or self-employed person, yes, you have to pay in to Social
    Security (Medicare too)

    Can you disenroll from it?
    "Disenroll" isn't a term. A few can "opt-out", but in general they are from
    certain religious orders, generally ordained ministers, and the things you
    have to give up...........



    --
    Paul A. Thomas, CPA
    taxman@negia.net



  7. #7
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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 11:45:06 GMT, Criswell The Psychic Weatherman
    <ssenate@mindless.com> wrote:
    Chris Petersen wrote:
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
    There is a form to refuse SS benefits, but you still have to pay SStaxes.
    Technically, the form is to stop receiving benefits once they have
    started. One has to initially apply to start receiving benefits. If
    you don't apply, you never get benefits to start with.

    But the bottom line, is that Social Security taxes are just that,
    taxes, and they are required except in certain specific circumstances
    as has been stated elsewhere in the thread (religious, some state and
    municipal employees).

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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    "Roger R" <jayray29remove@hotmail.com> wrote in
    news:uxC6b.86$s8.72@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com:
    "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message news:bjeikl0dvt@enews3.newsguy.com...
    Chris Petersen wrote:>>
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
    About the only way out is to be self employed. Employers are required to take the amount of your paycheck. Check with the source. I believe it's called the "internal revenue service" [ IRS ].
    If you are self-employed and have to do a Schedule C, the next thing you are required to do is complete a Schedule SE to compute your FICA and Medicare Tax. The tax rate is double that of an employee, since a self-employed person pays both the employee part and the employer tax. About the only way left to not pay social security tax is to work for a state or local government that was exempt prior to the changes under the Reagan administration, and then you pay into a different pension plan. Roger R.
    Or to be a coupon clipping waistrel son of a High Society
    family. The money is not considered earned income.

  9. #9
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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    In article <d1bad213.0309061807.6eae5e9a@posting.google.com >,
    petersen_cp@hotmail.com (Chris Petersen) wrote:
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it?
    This depends on your citizenship. If you are a United States citizen,
    the only way to avoid paying Social Security legally is to not work.

  10. #10
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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    In article <uxC6b.86$s8.72@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>,
    "Roger R" <jayray29remove@hotmail.com> wrote:
    "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message news:bjeikl0dvt@enews3.newsguy.com...
    Chris Petersen wrote:>>
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks in advance
    About the only way out is to be self employed. Employers are required to take the amount of your paycheck. Check with the source. I believe it's called the "internal revenue service" [ IRS ].
    Sigh. Richard makes up law again.
    If you are self-employed and have to do a Schedule C, the next thing you arerequired to do is complete a Schedule SE to compute your FICA and MedicareTax. The tax rate is double that of an employee, since a self-employedperson pays both the employee part and the employer tax.
    About the only way left to not pay social security tax is to work for astate or local government that was exempt prior to the changes under theReagan administration, and then you pay into a different pension plan.
    Or be Amish, or don't earn income.

    ---------------------------------------------
    David M. Nieporent nieporen@alumni.princeton.edu

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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    In article <1062933827.75535@alpha.negia.net>, Paul <taxman@negia.net> wrote:
    "Chris Petersen" <petersen_cp@hotmail.com> wrote
    Do you have to pay into Social Security?
    As an employee or self-employed person, yes, you have to pay in to SocialSecurity (Medicare too)
    Can you disenroll from it?
    "Disenroll" isn't a term. A few can "opt-out", but in general they are fromcertain religious orders, generally ordained ministers, and the things youhave to give up...........

    I'm not certain you have to be an ordained minister, just a
    minister recognized as such by your church.

    You must have a sincere religious belief against social security
    security. And you can then apply to the IRS, with proof that you
    have been appointed by your church as a minister, from
    contributing to Social Security for the work you do as a
    minister.

    This application must be made within the first two years of
    ministerial work.

    One the IRS approves your application, you may exclude self
    employment payments from your self employment ministerial income.

    If you are a minister and an employee of a church they will not
    withhold social security, and when the IRS approves your
    application, you are also exempt from filing schedule SE.

    Example: You are a self employed minister of your church and the
    IRS has approved your application for exemption from social
    security taxes. You may exclude all ministerial work performed
    on schedule C form Schedule SE income. Or if you are employed by
    the church and they do not (and they will not) withhold social
    security tax, you exclude this income from schedule SE>

    But if you also have work unrelated to your ministerial duties,
    such as being a house painter, your income from painting houses is
    subject to social security taxes even while your ministerial
    income is not.

    ++++


    As discussed before, employees of many state ond local governments
    and certain public charities may also be exempt from paying social
    security taxes as well.


    +++

    And social security taxes apply only to earned income, such as
    wages, self employment and tips. There is no social security tax
    on unearned income such as pensions, interest and dividends,
    capital gains, gambling income, rental income, and social security
    payments themselves.

    --

    __
    Art Kamlet ArtKamlet @ AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH

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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    petersen_cp@hotmail.com (Chris Petersen) wrote in message news:<d1bad213.0309061807.6eae5e9a@posting.google. com>...
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

    Chris do you want to hear the truth?

    In October of 1996 I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office an
    ask if there was a law that requires one to have a S.S#. I received a
    letter back a few weeks later.

    Dear Mr. ####

    This is in response to your letter about the need for a S.S.#.

    The Social Security Act "DOES NOT" require a person to have a SSN to
    live and work in the U.S., nor does it require an SSN simply for the
    purpose of having one.

    Sincerely

    Mr. Vincent, Director
    Office of Public Inquiries

    The answer to your question is simply "NO" no law! The puppets on
    this site will lead you to believe there is! But not one can show you
    the law that say you do!

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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    "Anthony" <ah0792@yahoo.com> wrote in message @posting.google.com...
    petersen_cp@hotmail.com (Chris Petersen) wrote in message
    news:<@posting.google.com>...
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Chris do you want to hear the truth? In October of 1996 I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office an ask if there was a law that requires one to have a S.S#. I received a letter back a few weeks later. Dear Mr. #### This is in response to your letter about the need for a S.S.#. The Social Security Act "DOES NOT" require a person to have a SSN to live and work in the U.S., nor does it require an SSN simply for the purpose of having one. Sincerely Mr. Vincent, Director Office of Public Inquiries The answer to your question is simply "NO" no law! The puppets on this site will lead you to believe there is! But not one can show you the law that say you do!
    who are the puppets ? try to get a job or a bank account or buy stocks
    without a social security number







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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Chris Petersen wrote:>>
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated.
    Some religious workers can opt out of SS based upon their religious beliefs.

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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    On 7 Sep 2003 17:41:13 -0700, ah0792@yahoo.com (Anthony) wrote:
    In October of 1996 I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office anask if there was a law that requires one to have a S.S#. I received aletter back a few weeks later.
    You asked the wrong agency. Try asking the IRS the same question.

    There may not be anything in the Social Security law that requires
    anyone to apply for a Social Security number, but there are tax laws
    and regulations that require a Social Security number.

    See, for example, section 6109 of the Internal Revenue Code.


    **Dan Evans
    **I post information, not advice.

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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:42:40 -0500, Me wrote
    (in message <srhi-3AD59E.12424007092003@news.comcast.giganews.com>):
    In article <d1bad213.0309061807.6eae5e9a@posting.google.com >, petersen_cp@hotmail.com (Chris Petersen) wrote:
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it?
    This depends on your citizenship. If you are a United States citizen, the only way to avoid paying Social Security legally is to not work.
    Actually whether one works or not is irrelevant.

    As our own hot-to-trot Toto Transue illustrates, the main thing is not to get
    paid (apparently, Michele/Mikie hasn't worked in years but still gets paid).



    Gray Shockley
    ---------------------


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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Me <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<srhi-3AD59E.12424007092003@news.comcast.giganews.com>.. .
    In article <d1bad213.0309061807.6eae5e9a@posting.google.com >, petersen_cp@hotmail.com (Chris Petersen) wrote:
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it?
    This depends on your citizenship. If you are a United States citizen, the only way to avoid paying Social Security legally is to not work.
    Or work in a trade that has an exemption. The most common such trade
    is the ministry. Ministers who have a well-founded conscientious
    objection to "public insurance" (as opposed to a self-serving desire
    to pay less tax) can apply for an exemption (Form 4361); if granted,
    they no longer pay into Social Security and are no longer eligible to
    receive benefits.

    --
    Chris Green

  18. #18

    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    > Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it?

    Certain employees of sovereign entities (states, municipalities, Native
    American governments) may not be covered. Certain religious workers can
    elect out of SS.

    Some employees of foreign entities (and possibly self-employed persons based
    abroad) are excluded from US SS and covered by a foreign system for a
    limited period while living and working in the USA. See
    http://www.ssa.gov/international

    Persons covered by Railroad Retirement are not subject to SS for such
    employment. Persons covered by pre-1984 Civil Service Retirement (and
    comparable agency-specific plans like FSRDS) are not covered by SS but are
    covered by Medicare.

    Some US-citizen employees of US entities abroad and most self-employed
    persons working in countries without a totalization agreement are covered by
    SS although not employed in the USA.

    The system can be gamed to some extent to maximize return from multiple
    systems, although the WEP (windfall elimination program) and the GPO
    (government pension offset) and the elimination of a minimum social security
    pension for the very low paid make that harder than it once was.




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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?


    "Roger R" <jayray29remove@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:uxC6b.86$s8.72@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
    "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message
    news:bjeikl0dvt@enews3.newsguy.com...
    Chris Petersen wrote:>>
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it? Any answers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
    About the only way out is to be self employed. Employers are required to take the amount of your paycheck. Check with the source. I believe it's called the "internal revenue service" [ IRS ]. If you are self-employed and have to do a Schedule C, the next thing you
    are
    required to do is complete a Schedule SE to compute your FICA and Medicare Tax. The tax rate is double that of an employee, since a self-employed person pays both the employee part and the employer tax. About the only way left to not pay social security tax is to work for a state or local government that was exempt prior to the changes under the Reagan administration, and then you pay into a different pension plan. Roger R.
    All you have to do on the Sked C is construct your company finances in such
    a manner as to show your "Taxable Income" to be below $400.00. Not all that
    difficult to accomplish if you know what you're doing, or have an accountant
    that does.


    --
    An opinion is only as valid as the name behind it,
    while an anonymous vote can change the world!



    Brooks Gregory





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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Christopher Green wrote:
    Me <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<srhi-3AD59E.12424007092003@news.comcast.giganews.com>.. .
    In article <d1bad213.0309061807.6eae5e9a@posting.google.com >, petersen_cp@hotmail.com (Chris Petersen) wrote:
    Do you have to pay into Social Security? Can you disenroll from it?
    This depends on your citizenship. If you are a United States citizen, the only way to avoid paying Social Security legally is to not work.
    Or work in a trade that has an exemption. The most common such trade is the ministry.
    Change "most common" to "only".





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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    "Paul" <taxman@negia.net> wrote in message news:<1062933827.75535@alpha.negia.net>...
    "Chris Petersen" <petersen_cp@hotmail.com> wrote
    Do you have to pay into Social Security?
    As an employee or self-employed person, yes, you have to pay in to Social Security (Medicare too)
    Can you disenroll from it?
    "Disenroll" isn't a term. A few can "opt-out", but in general they are from certain religious orders, generally ordained ministers, and the things you have to give up...........
    Once a person opts-out - they are out. They cannot opt back in.

  22. #22
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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    It was my impression at the time SS was created, strong existing pension
    systems like local governments, railroads, and teachers were grandfathered
    out of the system. Over the decades many of these have been re-absorbed
    into the larger system to make it stronger and prevent double-dipping.

    I'm still waiting for Congress to "eat its own dogfood", that is a metaphor
    for acting following the rules it prescribes fro the rest of us. That means
    to use our benefits system or let us into its more generous benefits system.

  23. #23
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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Dan Evans <dan@evans-legal.com> wrote in message news:<9nqnlv4te0bd6u40jkc7vkse01tl6t746e@4ax.com>. ..
    On 7 Sep 2003 17:41:13 -0700, ah0792@yahoo.com (Anthony) wrote:
    In October of 1996 I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office anask if there was a law that requires one to have a S.S#. I received aletter back a few weeks later.
    You asked the wrong agency. Try asking the IRS the same question. There may not be anything in the Social Security law that requires anyone to apply for a Social Security number, but there are tax laws and regulations that require a Social Security number. See, for example, section 6109 of the Internal Revenue Code. **Dan Evans **I post information, not advice.
    So Dan S.S. may not require a # but the IRS can? HMMM!!! So S.S. can
    not force a person into S.S. but the IRS can?

    Sec. 6109. Identifying numbers.

    (a) Supplying of identifying numbers.
    When required by regulations prescribed by the Secretary:
    (1) Inclusion in returns. Any person required under the
    authority of this title to make a return statement

    Who is this "Required Person" where in the regulations prescribed
    by the Secretary does it state a person "must" receive a S.S. # an
    what kind of person?

  24. #24
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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    "Anthony" <ah0792@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:208885da.0309081417.4acf129c@posting.google.c om...
    Dan Evans <dan@evans-legal.com> wrote in message news:<9nt746e@4ax.com>...
    On 7 Sep 2003 17:41:13 -0700, ah0792@yahoo.com (Anthony) wrote:
    In October of 1996 I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office anask if there was a law that requires one to have a S.S#. I received aletter back a few weeks later.
    You asked the wrong agency. Try asking the IRS the same question. There may not be anything in the Social Security law that requires anyone to apply for a Social Security number, but there are tax laws and regulations that require a Social Security number. See, for example, section 6109 of the Internal Revenue Code. **Dan Evans **I post information, not advice.
    So Dan S.S. may not require a # but the IRS can? HMMM!!! So S.S. can not force a person into S.S. but the IRS can? Sec. 6109. Identifying numbers. (a) Supplying of identifying numbers. When required by regulations prescribed by the Secretary: (1) Inclusion in returns. Any person required under the authority of this title to make a return statement Who is this "Required Person" where in the regulations prescribed by the Secretary does it state a person "must" receive a S.S. # an what kind of person?

    a normal kind of person, who do you think Tony ?










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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?



    Dan Evans wrote:
    On 7 Sep 2003 17:41:13 -0700, ah0792@yahoo.com (Anthony) wrote:
    In October of 1996 I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office anask if there was a law that requires one to have a S.S#. I received aletter back a few weeks later.
    You asked the wrong agency. Try asking the IRS the same question. There may not be anything in the Social Security law that requires anyone to apply for a Social Security number, but there are tax laws and regulations that require a Social Security number. See, for example, section 6109 of the Internal Revenue Code. **Dan Evans **I post information, not advice.
    He posts incorrect information.

    The social security account number issued to an individual for
    purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall,
    except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the
    Secretary, be used as the identifying number for such individual
    for purposes of this title.

    If the number is never issued, there is NO command in the IRC to get
    one. It just used the SSN if there is one.

    If there is no SSN then the next paragraph addresses the situation.

    For purposes of this section, the Secretary is authorized to
    require such information as may be necessary to assign an
    identifying number to any person.

    Thus,
    For purposes of paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), the identifying
    number of an individual (or his estate) shall be such individual's
    social security account number.
    contains a logical problem. It does not tell an individual to get a SSN,
    and innuendo to the contrary notwithstanding, there is no command
    contained in section 6109 to compel a citizen to apply (yes apply, as in
    request, ask nicely pretty please) for a SSN.

    Mr. Evans is the lawyer information you give to your clients just as
    correct?

    -HEAD-
    Sec. 6109. Identifying numbers

    -STATUTE-
    (a) Supplying of identifying numbers
    When required by regulations prescribed by the Secretary:
    (1) Inclusion in returns
    ...shall include... such identifying number...
    (2) Furnishing number to other persons
    ...shall furnish... such identifying number...
    (3) Furnishing number of another person
    ...shall include... such identifying number...
    (4) Furnishing identifying number of income tax return preparer
    ...shall bear such identifying number

    For purposes of paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), the identifying
    number of an individual (or his estate) shall be such individual's
    social security account number.

    (c) Requirement of information
    For purposes of this section, the Secretary is authorized to
    require such information as may be necessary to assign an
    identifying number to any person.
    (d) Use of social security account number
    The social security account number issued to an individual for
    purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall,
    except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the
    Secretary, be used as the identifying number for such individual
    for purposes of this title.


  26. #26
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    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?



    rick++ wrote:
    It was my impression at the time SS was created, strong existing pension systems like local governments, railroads, and teachers were grandfathered out of the system. Over the decades many of these have been re-absorbed into the larger system to make it stronger and prevent double-dipping. I'm still waiting for Congress to "eat its own dogfood", that is a metaphor for acting following the rules it prescribes fro the rest of us. That means to use our benefits system or let us into its more generous benefits system.
    Posted as hearsay. Truthfulness has not been examined.

    SOCIAL SECURITY:

    Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a
    Social Security check every month -- and then finding that we are
    getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the federal government to
    "put away," you may be interested in the following:

    Election Issue

    Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years. Our
    Senators and Congressmen/women do not pay into Social Security and, of
    course, they do not collect from it.

    You see, Social Security benefits were not suitable for persons of their
    rare elevation in society. They felt they should have a special plan for
    themselves. So, many years ago they voted in their own benefit plan.

    In more recent years, no congressperson has felt the need to change it.

    After all, it is a great plan. For all practical purposes their plan
    works like this:

    When they retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die,
    except it may increase from time to time for cost of living adjustments.

    For example, former Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives
    may expect to draw $7,800,000.00 (that's Seven Million, Eight-Hundred
    Thousand Dollars), with their wives drawing $275,000.00 during the last
    years of their lives. This is calculated on an average life span for each.

    Their cost for this excellent plan is $00.00. Nada. Zilch. This little
    perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the
    tab for this plan. The funds for this fine retirement plan come directly
    from the General Funds-our tax dollars at work!

    From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I pay (or have paid)
    into-every payday until we retire (which amount is matched by our
    employer) --we can expect to get an average $1,000 per month after
    retirement. Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of
    $1,000. monthly benefits for 68 years and one (1) month to equal Senator
    Bill Bradley's benefits!

    Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made.

    That change would be to jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from
    under the Senators and Congressmen. Put them into the Social Security
    plan with the rest of us ... then sit back and watch how fast they would
    fix it.


  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,242

    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Dale Eastman wrote:
    He posts incorrect information. The social security account number issued to an individual for purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall, except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the Secretary, be used as the identifying number for such individual for purposes of this title. If the number is never issued, there is NO command in the IRC to get one. It just used the SSN if there is one. If there is no SSN then the next paragraph addresses the situation. For purposes of this section, the Secretary is authorized to require such information as may be necessary to assign an identifying number to any person. Thus, For purposes of paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), the identifying number of an individual (or his estate) shall be such individual's social security account number.
    contains a logical problem. It does not tell an individual to get a SSN, and innuendo to the contrary notwithstanding, there is no command contained in section 6109 to compel a citizen to apply (yes apply, as in request, ask nicely pretty please) for a SSN.
    BS. 26 CFR 301.6109-1(a)(ii)(A) states:
    (A) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (a)(1)(ii)(B) and (D) of this section, and 301.61093, an individual required to furnish a taxpayer identifying number must use a social security number.
    (B) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (a)(1)(ii)(D) of this section and 301.61093, an individual required to furnish a taxpayer identifying number but who is not eligible to obtain a social security number must use an IRS individual taxpayer identification number.
    (D) refers to employer identification numbers,
    and -3 refers to adoption identification numbers,
    so these are not applicable.

    OK -- you'll probably say there are no individuals required
    to furnish a taxpayer identifying number.


  28. #28
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
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    1

    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    Dale Eastman <dalereastman@sprintmail.com> wrote in message news:<3F5D6025.5010901@sprintmail.com>...
    Dan Evans wrote:
    On 7 Sep 2003 17:41:13 -0700, ah0792@yahoo.com (Anthony) wrote:
    In October of 1996 I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office anask if there was a law that requires one to have a S.S#. I received aletter back a few weeks later.
    You asked the wrong agency. Try asking the IRS the same question. There may not be anything in the Social Security law that requires anyone to apply for a Social Security number, but there are tax laws and regulations that require a Social Security number. See, for example, section 6109 of the Internal Revenue Code. **Dan Evans **I post information, not advice.
    He posts incorrect information. The social security account number issued to an individual for purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall, except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the Secretary, be used as the identifying number for such individual for purposes of this title. If the number is never issued, there is NO command in the IRC to get one. It just used the SSN if there is one. If there is no SSN then the next paragraph addresses the situation. For purposes of this section, the Secretary is authorized to require such information as may be necessary to assign an identifying number to any person. Thus, For purposes of paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), the identifying number of an individual (or his estate) shall be such individual's social security account number. contains a logical problem. It does not tell an individual to get a SSN, and innuendo to the contrary notwithstanding, there is no command contained in section 6109 to compel a citizen to apply (yes apply, as in request, ask nicely pretty please) for a SSN. Mr. Evans is the lawyer information you give to your clients just as correct? -HEAD- Sec. 6109. Identifying numbers -STATUTE- (a) Supplying of identifying numbers When required by regulations prescribed by the Secretary: (1) Inclusion in returns ...shall include... such identifying number... (2) Furnishing number to other persons ...shall furnish... such identifying number... (3) Furnishing number of another person ...shall include... such identifying number... (4) Furnishing identifying number of income tax return preparer ...shall bear such identifying number For purposes of paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), the identifying number of an individual (or his estate) shall be such individual's social security account number. (c) Requirement of information For purposes of this section, the Secretary is authorized to require such information as may be necessary to assign an identifying number to any person. (d) Use of social security account number The social security account number issued to an individual for purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall, except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the Secretary, be used as the identifying number for such individual for purposes of this title.

    Read:
    www.nossn.com
    The truth is out there.

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    428

    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?



    Arthur L. Rubin wrote:
    Dale Eastman wrote:
    He posts incorrect information. The social security account number issued to an individual for purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall, except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the Secretary, be used as the identifying number for such individual for purposes of this title.If the number is never issued, there is NO command in the IRC to getone. It just used the SSN if there is one.If there is no SSN then the next paragraph addresses the situation. For purposes of this section, the Secretary is authorized to require such information as may be necessary to assign an identifying number to any person.Thus, For purposes of paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), the identifying number of an individual (or his estate) shall be such individual's social security account number.contains a logical problem. It does not tell an individual to get a SSN,and innuendo to the contrary notwithstanding, there is no commandcontained in section 6109 to compel a citizen to apply (yes apply, as inrequest, ask nicely pretty please) for a SSN.
    BS. 26 CFR 301.6109-1(a)(ii)(A) statesA) Except as otherwise provided inparagraph (a)(1)(ii)(B) and (D) of thissection, and 301.61093, an individualrequired to furnish a taxpayer identifyingnumber must use a social securitynumber.
    OK -- you'll probably say there are no individuals required to furnish a taxpayer identifying number.
    What I'm going to say is that you posted partially correct information
    that actually starts to make the point asserted.

    You left this out:
    301.6109-1(d)
    Obtaining a taxpayer identifying number--(1) Social security
    number. Any individual required to furnish a social security number
    pursuant to paragraph (b) of this section shall apply for one, if he has
    not done so previously, on Form SS-5, which may be obtained from any
    Social Security Administration or Internal Revenue Service office. He
    shall make such application far enough in advance of the first required
    use of such number to permit issuance of the number in time for
    compliance with such requirement. The form, together with any
    supplementary statement, shall be prepared and filed in accordance with
    the form, instructions, and regulations applicable thereto, and shall
    set forth fully and clearly the data therein called for. Individuals who
    are ineligible for or do not wish to participate in the benefits of the
    social security program shall nevertheless obtain a social security
    number if they are required to furnish such a number pursuant to
    paragraph (b) of this section.

    Now all that is needed is the SSN tatooed on every citizen's fore arm...
    And some government approved 'showers'.


  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    341

    Default Do you have to pay into Social Security?

    On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 05:07:26 GMT, Dale Eastman
    <dalereastman@sprintmail.com> wrote:
    Dan Evans wrote:
    On 7 Sep 2003 17:41:13 -0700, ah0792@yahoo.com (Anthony) wrote:
    In October of 1996 I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office anask if there was a law that requires one to have a S.S#. I received aletter back a few weeks later.
    You asked the wrong agency. Try asking the IRS the same question. There may not be anything in the Social Security law that requires anyone to apply for a Social Security number, but there are tax laws and regulations that require a Social Security number. See, for example, section 6109 of the Internal Revenue Code.
    He posts incorrect information. The social security account number issued to an individual for purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall, except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the Secretary, be used as the identifying number for such individual for purposes of this title.If the number is never issued, there is NO command in the IRC to getone.
    I never said there was a command to GET a SSN. I said that there was
    a command to USE one.
    It just used the SSN if there is one.
    There is no "if there is one" in the regulations.
    If there is no SSN then the next paragraph addresses the situation. For purposes of this section, the Secretary is authorized to require such information as may be necessary to assign an identifying number to any person.Thus, For purposes of paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), the identifying number of an individual (or his estate) shall be such individual's social security account number.contains a logical problem. It does not tell an individual to get a SSN,and innuendo to the contrary notwithstanding, there is no commandcontained in section 6109 to compel a citizen to apply (yes apply, as inrequest, ask nicely pretty please) for a SSN.
    As I pointed out above, I never said that there was a command to apply
    for a SSN. I said that there are regulations that require taxpayers
    to have one and use it, which Eastman has confirmed.

    And, as Eastman has also demonstrated, if there is no application, the
    Secretary (i.e., the IRS) can require information needed to assign one
    anyway.

    But notice the irony in Eastman's criticisms. He reads my statement
    that taxpayers are required to *use* a SSN, and believes I am stating
    that taxpayers must *apply* for a SSN. He reads the regulations that
    require taxpayers to *use* a SSN and concludes that there is no
    logical "innuendo" that any taxpayer is required to *apply* for a SSN.
    He then says that *my* statements are false, even though all I said
    was what the regulations say. But all that Eastman has demontrated is
    that he doesn't read (or reason) well, and that he very much wants to
    criticize me for leaping to the conclusion that he leapt to before I
    could.

    Mr. Eastman obviously didn't do well in school, because he could never
    follow instructions. If the teacher told the students to bring in a
    pencil for a test, Eastman would show up without a pencil, and explain
    that he couldn't bring one because he didn't own one. If the teacher
    asked him why he didn't buy one, Eastman would explain that the
    teacher never commanded him to BUY a pencil, only BRING a pencil, and
    that he couldn't infer a command to buy from a command to bring.


    **Dan Evans
    **I post information, not advice.

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