**** the immigrants!

[Chinga La Migra]

For all you anti-immigrant fascists out there (maybe you should go
back to where your ancestors came from to "free" up America, eh
hypocrites?):

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tra...rall031020.gif

[Mayo]

In reality the US is no longer an immigrant friendly country, as
evidenced by the longer timeframes to process legal immigrants (almost
2 years for AOS in many cases). So this debate is to some degree mute,
I believe that while many immigranst are still being processed the
flow will be significantly reduced. This is a shame because a lot of
smart, capable people who really contriute to country, pay their way
and pay lot's of taxes will not come to the US anymore.

For example, the US does not generate enough Electrical Engineers per
year to match the requirements of the electronics industry, there is
also a shortage of nurses and in many cases of teachers. Are we really
better without them?

I do realize that many US born people are unemployed and that some
foreigners are not, this does sound unfair to some, but the solution
is not less immigrants but retraining and support for unemployed
persons. How will having less foreign engineers or nurses help an
unemployed mechanic or factory worker without retraining?

I believe in any case that the debate is healthy, but the xenophobia
and hate displayed is not. Illegal immigrants are not all criminals
(probably very few are), in most cases they are highly motivated
workers because they really want to improve their situation. I am a
strong proponent of immigration but accept the fact that people have
other opinions.

[kitty]

"Mayo" <mario_segal@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:663cb69c.0311041357.63839812@posting.google.c om...

In reality the US is no longer an immigrant friendly country, as evidenced by the longer timeframes to process legal immigrants (almost 2 years for AOS in many cases). So this debate is to some degree mute, I believe that while many immigranst are still being processed the flow will be significantly reduced. This is a shame because a lot of smart, capable people who really contriute to country, pay their way and pay lot's of taxes will not come to the US anymore. For example, the US does not generate enough Electrical Engineers per year to match the requirements of the electronics industry, there is also a shortage of nurses and in many cases of teachers. Are we really better without them? I do realize that many US born people are unemployed and that some foreigners are not, this does sound unfair to some, but the solution is not less immigrants but retraining and support for unemployed persons. How will having less foreign engineers or nurses help an unemployed mechanic or factory worker without retraining? I believe in any case that the debate is healthy, but the xenophobia and hate displayed is not. Illegal immigrants are not all criminals (probably very few are), in most cases they are highly motivated workers because they really want to improve their situation. I am a strong proponent of immigration but accept the fact that people have other opinions.

well, you speak nonsense as I personally KNOW electrical engineers out of
work due to H-1B visas! furthermore, my sister-in-law is an RN--she is out
of work....why ? because the hospital laid her off and replaced with a
foreign worker [much lower wages]

so screw the illegal immigrants and severely limit the legals---the country
can only hold so much!

kitty

[Road Atlas]

"kitty" <cowgirla@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:s4KdnYttF_xetTWiRVn-vw@comcast.com...

"Mayo" <mario_segal@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:663cb69c.0311041357.63839812@posting.google.c om...

In reality the US is no longer an immigrant friendly country, as evidenced by the longer timeframes to process legal immigrants (almost 2 years for AOS in many cases). So this debate is to some degree mute, I believe that while many immigranst are still being processed the flow will be significantly reduced. This is a shame because a lot of smart, capable people who really contriute to country, pay their way and pay lot's of taxes will not come to the US anymore. For example, the US does not generate enough Electrical Engineers per year to match the requirements of the electronics industry, there is also a shortage of nurses and in many cases of teachers. Are we really better without them? I do realize that many US born people are unemployed and that some foreigners are not, this does sound unfair to some, but the solution is not less immigrants but retraining and support for unemployed persons. How will having less foreign engineers or nurses help an unemployed mechanic or factory worker without retraining? I believe in any case that the debate is healthy, but the xenophobia and hate displayed is not. Illegal immigrants are not all criminals (probably very few are), in most cases they are highly motivated workers because they really want to improve their situation. I am a strong proponent of immigration but accept the fact that people have other opinions.

well, you speak nonsense as I personally KNOW electrical engineers out of work due to H-1B visas! furthermore, my sister-in-law is an RN--she is out of work....why ? because the hospital laid her off and replaced with a foreign worker [much lower wages] so screw the illegal immigrants and severely limit the legals---the

country

can only hold so much! kitty

The only people posting nonsense are Kitty I & II
You just don't see the big picture. If you compare
the density of people in the US with Europe or
even China, you see we can hold more than
2 Billion people - 10 times what we have now!
So shut the F U C K up you idiots. You are
absolutely clueless.

[Road Atlas]

"Andrew DeFaria" <ADeFaria@Salira.com> wrote in message
news:267a6$3fa830bd$ceb8cc02$20481@msgid.meganewss ervers.com...

Mayo wrote:

In reality the US is no longer an immigrant friendly country, as evidenced by the longer timeframes to process legal immigrants (almost 2 years for AOS in many cases).

WRT marriage based visas, the 2 years is codified into law specifically help stop fraudulent marriages. IOW unfriendly immigrants caused their own problem and we responded to protect ourselves.

So this debate is to some degree mute, I believe that while many immigranst are still being processed the flow will be significantly reduced. This is a shame because a lot of smart, capable people who really contriute to country, pay their way and pay lot's of taxes will not come to the US anymore.

The flow is still heavy though perhaps a bit slower. You see back in the day the US had unbounded good fortune and prosperty - the dot com boom - which has since subsided. Sure other countries also had booms and I bet their immigration picked up too. People tend to go where the money and/or opportunity is. So, for example, I doubt that Kenya's immigration inflow rose at all during these times.

For example, the US does not generate enough Electrical Engineers per year to match the requirements of the electronics industry, there is also a shortage of nurses and in many cases of teachers. Are we really better without them?

The shortage in teachers is due largely to the piss poor wages. Do we need to import EEs, teachers and nurses from other countries? Maybe. But to bring this back on topic - we don't need 'em if they will also break our laws.

Wages are only one of the factors. The srewed up and
expensive education system is another, in my opinion.
Even aother factor is that most young Americans are
just to lazy and not really motivated any more;
just seeing some kind of a dating show on TV
makes this very clear. An immigrant from India,
21 years old, already holds a Ph. D. and behaves
like an educated person - the American counter
parts are standing at the bar and having alcohol
poured down their throuts.
I call that the new "Spirit of America".

I do realize that many US born people are unemployed and that some foreigners are not, this does sound unfair to some, but the solution is not less immigrants but retraining and support for unemployed persons. How will having less foreign engineers or nurses help an unemployed mechanic or factory worker without retraining? I believe most people are talking about not allowing illegal (everybody seems to miss that word) immigrants remain here illegally. Most people are not saying "we want less immigrants" rather they are saying "we want to illegal ones to leave".

I believe in any case that the debate is healthy, but the xenophobia and hate displayed is not.

What xenophobia and hate have I displayed? Only xenophobia and hate (though I wouldn't say hate) against people who do not respect our laws.

Illegal immigrants are not all criminals (probably very few are),

Bsst.. Wrong but thanks for trying. The very fact that the word "illegal" preceeds "immigrant" is significant (otherwise don't use the "illegal" qualifier!). By it's very presence is changes the definition to mean an immigrant who has broken the law. People that break the law are criminals, period! Why is it that you don't seem to see that?

It's because we educated reader of this newsgroup know
that you are only a criminal if you comit a crime. Being
here illegally because somebody overstayed or worked
illegally is NOT a crime under the law as outlined before.
It is actually called "unlawfully present". So maybe
you want to read up on the law and stop wondering.

in most cases they are highly motivated workers because they really want to improve their situation. I am a strong proponent of immigration but accept the fact that people have other opinions. I am a strong proponent of immigration too. I am, however, equally strongly against illegal immigration.

Then change the stupid laws and make EVERY approval
process happen within 90 days. I agree with a former
opinion posted here, that you can hardly blame the
illegal immigrant, or overstayed for trying to get it done faster.

[mrtravel]

kitty wrote:

well, you speak nonsense as I personally KNOW electrical engineers out of work due to H-1B visas! furthermore, my sister-in-law is an RN--she is out of work....why ? because the hospital laid her off and replaced with a foreign worker [much lower wages]

And what did the government say when you sister-in-law filed the complaint?

[Road Atlas]

"mrtravel" <postmaster@x.x> wrote in message
news:vEWpb.2610$yO4.87@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com. ..

kitty wrote:

well, you speak nonsense as I personally KNOW electrical engineers out

of

work due to H-1B visas! furthermore, my sister-in-law is an RN--she is

out

of work....why ? because the hospital laid her off and replaced with a foreign worker [much lower wages] And what did the government say when you sister-in-law filed the

complaint?Just another simple education problem.

File a complaint? Why not go to school
and earn the right to make more money
by getting a better job afterwards?

Are you a union member or what?
Only Americans can get jobs, even if
the company has to overpay?

And consider this, maybe she just
worked there for too long and because
of the seniority, they had to pay her more.
Why do it, if somebody can do the
job, even if they haven't done it for years.

Circuit City recently fired everybody
above a certain level of income and
replaced them with fresh employees.

Blaming everything on immigrants becomes
to convenient lately...

[mrtravel]

Who Cares wrote:

And what did the government say when you sister-in-law filed the

complaint? Just another simple education problem. File a complaint? Why not go to school and earn the right to make more money by getting a better job afterwards?

She's an RN...
What education problem?
The country needs nurses. She studied nursing.
There are still shortages of nurses, so I am wondering why she lost her
job... and I don't think it had anything to do with H1B.

Education and apptitude don't always go hand in hand. I have interviewed
a few "degree qualified" Americans for high tech that were unsuitable
for the job.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Who Cares wrote:

Bsst.. Wrong but thanks for trying. The very fact that the word "illegal" preceeds "immigrant" is significant (otherwise don't use the "illegal" qualifier!). By it's very presence is changes the definitionto mean an immigrant who has broken the law. People that break the law are criminals, period! Why is it that you don't seem to see that?It's because we educated reader of this newsgroup know that you are only a criminal if you comit a crime. Being here illegally because somebody overstayed or worked illegally is NOT a crime under the law as outlined before. It is actually called "unlawfully present". So maybe you want to read up on the law and stop wondering.

You use the term "illegal" to refer to somebody who is here legally and
you're calling me stupid?!? The law is clear, if you obtain employment
while here on a vistor's visa you have broken the law. If you stay
longer than your visa allows you have broken the law. Technically you
should be removed from the country (i.e. punished) for breaking the law.
In my book that illegal and you have committed a crime. I'm not sure
what book you're reading from.

in most cases they are highly motivated workers because they really want to improve their situation. I am a strong proponent of immigration but accept the fact that people have other opinions.I am a strong proponent of immigration too. I am, however, equally strongly against illegal immigration.Then change the stupid laws and make EVERY approval process happen within 90 days.

Hey you're the one who wants the laws changes so have at it. At this
time the law does not favor your opinion.

I do agree that the process needs to be sped up. I do not agree that AOS
for family based visas should be shortened from the current 2 years.

I agree with a former opinion posted here, that you can hardly blame the illegal immigrant,

Why you certainly can and I do. Again "illegal" means they broke the
law. Hardly fair to people who are playing by the rules.

or overstayed for trying to get it done faster.

That doesn't even parse!
--
I used to work at a factory where they made hydrants; but you couldn't
park anywhere near the place.

[mrtravel]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

if you comit a crime. Being here illegally because somebody overstayed
or worked illegally is NOT a crime under the law as outlined before. It
is actually called "unlawfully present". So maybe you want to read up on
the law and stop wondering.

You use the term "illegal" to refer to somebody who is here legally and you're calling me stupid?!? The law is clear, if you obtain employment while here on a vistor's visa you have broken the law. If you stay longer than your visa allows you have broken the law. Technically you should be removed from the country (i.e. punished) for breaking the law. In my book that illegal and you have committed a crime.

Try the US Code. Believe it or not, it actually defines what is a crime.
Unlawfully present, is not a crime.

[Road Atlas]

The way you post messages makes you stupid.
What is it with this TABs?
You can't even post a message like a normal person.

And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law.
Get it on your head already!

I am getting tired even looking at your %$!@ HTML posts.

"Andrew DeFaria" <ADeFaria@Salira.com> wrote in message news:57fde$3fa854d0$ceb8cc02$24800@msgid.meganewss ervers.com...
Who Cares wrote:

Bsst.. Wrong but thanks for trying. The very fact that the word "illegal" preceeds "immigrant" is significant (otherwise don't use the "illegal" qualifier!). By it's very presence is changes the definition
to mean an immigrant who has broken the law. People that break the law are criminals, period! Why is it that you don't seem to see that?
It's because we educated reader of this newsgroup know that you are only a criminal if you comit a crime. Being here illegally because somebody overstayed or worked illegally is NOT a crime under the law as outlined before. It is actually called "unlawfully present". So maybe you want to read up on the law and stop wondering.You use the term "illegal" to refer to somebody who is here legally and you're calling me stupid?!? The law is clear, if you obtain employment while here on a vistor's visa you have broken the law. If you stay longer than your visa allows you have broken the law. Technically you should be removed from the country (i.e. punished) for breaking the law. In my book that illegal and you have committed a crime. I'm not sure what book you're reading from.

in most cases they are highly motivated workers because they really want to improve their situation. I am a strong proponent of immigration but accept the fact that people have other opinions.
I am a strong proponent of immigration too. I am, however, equally strongly against illegal immigration.
Then change the stupid laws and make EVERY approval process happen within 90 days. Hey you're the one who wants the laws changes so have at it. At this time the law does not favor your opinion.

I do agree that the process needs to be sped up. I do not agree that AOS for family based visas should be shortened from the current 2 years.

I agree with a former opinion posted here, that you can hardly blame the illegal immigrant, Why you certainly can and I do. Again "illegal" means they broke the law. Hardly fair to people who are playing by the rules.

or overstayed for trying to get it done faster.That doesn't even parse!
--
I used to work at a factory where they made hydrants; but you couldn't park anywhere near the place.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Who Cares wrote:

The way you post messages makes you stupid.

That's cool because what you actual post makes you look stupid.

What is it with this TABs?

What "tabs"?

You can't even post a message like a normal person.

My posting is fine. You can't seem to handle it. That makes you stupid -
not me.

And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law. Get it on your head already!

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Anyway
you slice it the law says that are not supposed to be here. Call it
criminal, call it unlawful, call it what you like, it doesn't matter. Or
are you saying we should not respect the laws we have?

BTW if you look up the word crime you'll see:

1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or
commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
2. Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.
3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.
4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a
crime to squander our country's natural resources.

Illegal immigrants violate our laws. Punishment (removal) is imposed
upon conviction. There activty is unlawful (this even covers the
"unlawfully present" phrase).

I am getting tired even looking at your %$!@ HTML posts.

Killfile me if you want. I don't care.
--
I got a new shadow. I had to get rid of the other one -- it wasn't doing
what I was doing.

[mrtravel]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Anyway you slice it the law says that are not supposed to be here. Call it criminal, call it unlawful, call it what you like, it doesn't matter. Or are you saying we should not respect the laws we have?

No, he was saying the some laws are criminal and some aren't

BTW if you look up the word crime you'll see:

If you would bother look at the official document on Federal Law, you
will see that unlawful presence is not a criminal act. Have you ever
hear of the "US Code"?

[Archmedes]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:23:32 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law. Get it on your head already!If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

You can look somebody you respect in the face and say with a straight
face that you never, ever, broke any rule? Like going over the speed
limit? That's a duck, too... and there are quite a few of those ducks.

[mrtravel]

Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:23:32 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law. Get iton your head already!If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

You can look somebody you respect in the face and say with a straight face that you never, ever, broke any rule? Like going over the speed limit? That's a duck, too... and there are quite a few of those ducks.

And... neither speeding and unlawful presence are crimes.

[Andrew DeFaria]

mrtravel wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Anyway you slice it the law says that are not supposed to be here. Call it criminal, call it unlawful, call it what you like, it doesn't matter. Or are you saying we should not respect the laws we have?

No, he was saying the some laws are criminal and some aren't

Big deal.

BTW if you look up the word crime you'll see: If you would bother look at the official document on Federal Law, you will see that unlawful presence is not a criminal act. Have you ever hear of the "US Code"?

Yes I have. Regardless, the common definition of the word crime includes
illegal activities both civil and criminal. In any event it still stands
that they are in violation of the law and the proscribed punishment is
removal. Again, to me, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck -
it's a duck! YMMV.
--
I don't have a solution but I admire the problem.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:23:32 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law. Get it on your head already! If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

You can look somebody you respect in the face and say with a straight face that you never, ever, broke any rule? Like going over the speed limit? That's a duck, too... and there are quite a few of those ducks.

Did I say that? No. So why do you put words in my mouth?

In any event, yes, I've sped. Got caught too. Suffered the consequences.
Why then shouldn't immigrants?

If immigrants who violate our laws are simply forgiven, then if an
immigrant speeds and gets caught should they not be made to face the
consequences?!? Your position is totally inconsistent!
--
I am in shape. Round is a shape!

[Andrew DeFaria]

mrtravel wrote:

Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:23:32 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law. Get> it on your head already! If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

You can look somebody you respect in the face and say with a straight face that you never, ever, broke any rule? Like going over the speed limit? That's a duck, too... and there are quite a few of those ducks.

And... neither speeding and unlawful presence are crimes.

And both have proscribe penalities that should not be ignored.
--
Is French kissing in France just called kissing?

[Douglas S. Ladden]

Andrew DeFaria on 04 Nov 2003 suggested:

Mayo wrote:

Illegal immigrants are not all criminals (probably very few are),

Bsst.. Wrong but thanks for trying. The very fact that the word "illegal" preceeds "immigrant" is significant (otherwise don't use the "illegal" qualifier!). By it's very presence is changes the definition to mean an immigrant who has broken the law. People that break the law are criminals, period! Why is it that you don't seem to see that?

To use your terms, BZZZT!! You are wrong. As I have explained
many times before, merely being present in the USA in an undocumented
status is not in and of itself a crime. ("illegal" is a term hate-
mongers use to make these people appear to be criminals).

As I have said several times before, there are many types of laws,
but most primarily fall into two types, civil and criminal. You can
break the civil laws all you want, and you are NOT a criminal, PERIOD!

As I have challenged many times before, and not one person,
ranters or otherwise, has met the challenge so I will challenge again,
find me one single statute that makes mere presence in the USA in an
undocumented status a crime. You can't do it, because there isn't one.
I'll even get you started, yet again. If it exists, it should be in
Title 8 (ALIENS AND NATIONALITY) or Title 18 (CRIMES) of the United
States Code. If you should happen to find it, please do let me know.

--Douglas

[Mayo]

Andrew,

I guess you have a point, being here without a valid visa is against
the law, so is working without a work permit. And yes, people in those
categories (and many more) can be deported when found. Most countries
have those laws, no issues here from my part

I do make a distinction (and I believe US laws do as well) between
being here illegally and committing serious crimes (i.e. rape,
murder). But anybody who breaks the law is a criminal (maybe a
conviction is needed for that, otherwise anybody who speeded on a
highway will also be a criminal)

Following your point, what should happen to US companies and
businesses who hire illegal immigrants (be it to harvest, work in
factories, wash dishes, etc.), are they criminals too (they broke the
law, so according to your definition they are) - Please let us know
what your idea of an appropriate punishment is - Jail, payment of lost
wages to an unemployed American?
(This is a serious question, please either answer it seriously or just
ignore it)

I do maintain my belief that immigrants legal or not are good for the
country, they invigorate the economy, provide needed skills (from
dishwashing upwards), pay taxes (yes they do), spend money in US, and
in many cases serve and die in the military - Are the immigrants who
died in Iraq carrying out the orders of the President also criminals
(should their general be in jail for hiring them?)

Do you like Baseball? Are Sammy Sosa, Pedro Martinez, and the many
other foreign players bad for Baseball - should they not be allowed to
play until all Americans who say they are baseball players play on an
MLB team? I believe that stadiums will be empty if that were the case

I do also agree that no system is perfect, US citizens wil be
unemployed no matter what, even if no foreign workers were allowed.
You have to recognize that this is true, even if you don't agree or
like it

[Kitty]

On 4 Nov 2003 13:57:28 -0800, mario_segal@hotmail.com (Mayo) wrote:

I believe in any case that the debate is healthy, but the xenophobiaand hate displayed is not. Illegal immigrants are not all criminals(probably very few are), in most cases they are highly motivatedworkers because they really want to improve their situation.

I quote part of a Drudge article from this morning:

"The plaintiffs, who face deportation for being illegal immigrants, also
accuse Wal-Mart and its contractors of discriminating against them by
giving them lower wages and fewer benefits than other workers because of
their national origin."

I quote this because it references not the criminal illegal aliens, but
because it gives a hint of the impact on our country. It suggests that
businesses, in this case, WalMart, would prefer to, even at the risk of
getting caught, break the law by NOT paying a legal wage, and withholding
otherwise required benefits to these people.

When these people apply for a job, who do you think gets hired? The legal
citizen, who would require the business to pay their taxes as they should,
or the criminal illegal alien who, because they are not going to file
anyway, allows the business to get out of paying a fair wage?

Three guesses - and the first two don't count!

I the midwest, 10-15 years ago, a meat cutter got $15 per hour. Now they
make $9.00 per hour. The difference is that mass illegal immigration
provided a bunch of cheaper labor and brought the cost of labor down.
Don't even think that this impacted the price of meat! What it did do was
pad the pockets of the businesses hiring the illegal immigrants. WE, the
consumer, saw no such decrease in the price of our meat.

Kitty II

[Kitty]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:58:47 GMT, "Who Cares" <no@spam.com> wrote:

If you comparethe density of people in the US with Europe oreven China, you see we can hold more than2 Billion people - 10 times what we have now!So shut the F U C K up you idiots. You areabsolutely clueless.

It is not about density. It is about obeying the law. Resorting to name
calling is only a demonstration that you have nothing else to say.

Kitty II

[Kitty]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:26:49 GMT, "Who Cares" <no@spam.com> wrote:

I agree with a formeropinion posted here, that you can hardly blame theillegal immigrant, or overstayed for trying to get it done faster.

The hell I can't! The criminal illegal alien would have us believe that we
should expect that is okay to ignore our laws. It isn't.

Till these criminals deal with the hard fact that the very first thing they
do is break our laws, we have no business having ANY dealing with them -
other than throwing them across the nearest border.

Kitty II

[Kitty]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:23:32 -0800, Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com>
wrote:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Anywayyou slice it the law says that are not supposed to be here. Call itcriminal, call it unlawful, call it what you like, it doesn't matter. Orare you saying we should not respect the laws we have?BTW if you look up the word crime you'll see: 1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction. 2. Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime. 3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality. 4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a crime to squander our country's natural resources.Illegal immigrants violate our laws.

these criminals violate our laws, and are looking for ANY way to
rationalize their behavior. This is, by far, the worst sort of attack on
our system. If we are to survive this nonsense, we HAVE TO establish some
pretty hard rules to live by. Starting with tossing the criminal illegal
alien across the nearest border.

Kitty II

[Kitty]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:07:56 -0800, Gerhard Fiedler <me@privacy.net> wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:23:32 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law. Get it on your head already!If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

You can look somebody you respect in the face and say with a straightface that you never, ever, broke any rule? Like going over the speedlimit? That's a duck, too... and there are quite a few of those ducks.

So, what you are saying is that because someone, sometime, once broke the
law, it's okay just to throw them all out, right?

Get a life!

Kitty II
www.ufire.net

[Kitty]

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:32:01 GMT, mrtravel <postmaster@x.x> wrote:

Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:23:32 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

>And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law. Get it>on your head already!If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

You can look somebody you respect in the face and say with a straight face that you never, ever, broke any rule? Like going over the speed limit? That's a duck, too... and there are quite a few of those ducks.

And... neither speeding and unlawful presence are crimes.

Man, you are good at rationalization! This discussion is not going
anywhere with you sad misguided arguments.

Kitty II
www.ufire.net

[Andrew DeFaria]

Kitty II wrote:

I quote part of a Drudge article from this morning:"The plaintiffs, who face deportation for being illegal immigrants, also accuse Wal-Mart and its contractors of discriminating against them by giving them lower wages and fewer benefits than other workers because of their national origin."I quote this because it references not the criminal illegal aliens, but because it gives a hint of the impact on our country. It suggests that businesses, in this case, WalMart, would prefer to, even at the risk of getting caught, break the law by NOT paying a legal wage, and withholding otherwise required benefits to these people.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the illegal aliens were all
hired by contractors - not Walmart itself. Doesn't make it any more
right though.
--
Shell to DOS... Come in DOS, do you copy? Shell to DOS...

[Archmedes]

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 19:43:10 GMT, Kitty II wrote:

Man, you are good at rationalization! This discussion is not goinganywhere with you sad misguided arguments.

Well, thanks to your well-guided arguments like the one above it
actually does go somewhere...

What's wrong with a rational view at things? Does reason often get in
your way?

[Archmedes]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:54:49 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

>> And yes, illegals are breaking the law, but not criminal law. Get>> it on your head already!>> If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. You can look somebody you respect in the face and say with a straight face that you never, ever, broke any rule? Like going over the speed limit? That's a duck, too... and there are quite a few of those ducks. And... neither speeding and unlawful presence are crimes.And both have proscribe penalities that should not be ignored.

Well, in this context, I know for a fact that you have a huge majority
against you. Strictly enforcing speed limits would cause a revolution
-- at least in California. Or at the very least another immediate
recall...

[Archmedes]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:53:42 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. You can look somebody you respect in the face and say with a straight face that you never, ever, broke any rule? Like going over the speed limit? That's a duck, too... and there are quite a few of those ducks.Did I say that? No. So why do you put words in my mouth?

What did you not say? What did I put in your mouth? (Heavens forbid
that I ever get that near your mouth!

In any event, yes, I've sped. Got caught too. Suffered the consequences.Why then shouldn't immigrants?

Did I ever say they shouldn't? Would be nice if you could back that up
with a citation, in case you think about anzwering with "yes".

If immigrants who violate our laws are simply forgiven, then if animmigrant speeds and gets caught should they not be made to face theconsequences?!? Your position is totally inconsistent!

Now what position do you read out of questions? Could it be that you
are so full of prejudice that you only need a question of mine to
start thinking all kinds of things you think I think?

Kind of shows that you actually didn't read my previous posts. If you
had, you could know by now more about my position than this.