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Thread: Born In International waters

  1. #1
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    Default Born In International waters


    What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and
    your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and
    Germany and you are born in international waters?


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    Default Born In International waters

    The citizenship would apply to the country you just left.


    "astrokid14" <member15115@britishexpats.com> wrote in message
    news:957426.1063247057@britishexpats.com...
    What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters? -- Posted via http://britishexpats.com


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    Default Born In International waters

    "Kevin Torkelson" <kgtorkelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
    news:hJ08b.998$k9.522@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com.. .
    The citizenship would apply to the country you just left.
    Traditionally I thought it was always the destination (since that's the
    first place you'll be in a position to register the birth.) Did that change?




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    Default Born In International waters

    Wow!
    If they just left Hong Kong, the baby would be a Chinese citizen then? LOL!

    "Kevin Torkelson" <kgtorkelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
    news:hJ08b.998$k9.522@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com.. .
    | The citizenship would apply to the country you just left.
    |
    |
    | "astrokid14" <member15115@britishexpats.com> wrote in message
    | news:957426.1063247057@britishexpats.com...
    | >
    | > What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and
    | > your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and
    | > Germany and you are born in international waters?
    | >
    | >
    | > --
    | > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
    |
    |



  5. #5
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    Default Born In International waters

    "astrokid14" wrote:
    What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters?
    Kevin Torkelson replied:
    The citizenship would apply to the country you just left.
    "Lucy" replied:
    Traditionally I thought it was always the destination (since that's the first place you'll be in a position to register the birth.) Did that change?
    There are really two separate questions here:

    (1) Will the child acquire citizenship from a parent or parents
    (via the legal principle of "ius sanguinis", or citizenship
    by descent)?

    (2) Will the child acquire citizenship from any country involved
    in the trip the parents were on (via the legal principle of
    "ius soli", or citizenship by place of birth)?

    The answers to both of these questions will depend on the individual
    citizenship laws of each of the countries involved. And since it's
    a question of multiple countries' laws -- each country acting on its
    own and without regard to the laws of any other country -- the child
    could very easily end up with more than one citizenship (what is
    commonly called "dual" or "multiple" citizenship).

    For example, the child in Astrokid14's original question would
    definitely have Canadian citizenship at birth, because current
    Canadian law says that any child born to a Canadian parent (father
    or mother, doesn't matter which) is automatically a Canadian citizen.

    It is quite possible (though not absolutely certain) that the child
    would also have US citizenship at birth. In an attempt to limit
    the proliferation of endless generations of foreign-born "Americans"
    with no real ties to the US, there are complicated restrictions in
    US citizenship law relating to foreign-born children of US citizens.
    But if the child's American mother had grown up in the US, it's very
    likely that the child would have US citizenship at birth. If the
    mother had spent very little time in the US, though, the child might
    end up =not= having US citizenship, despite his American mother.

    I don't know any details about either French or German citizenship
    law, so I can't say for sure whether (or under what conditions) a
    foreign-born child of a French or German father is considered (by
    France or Germany, respectively) to have that country's citizenship.
    Again, the answer depends on the laws of each country involved.

    As for the "international waters" issue, that will also depend on
    the laws of individual countries; any generalization like "the
    country you just left" or "the destination" is unsafe unless you
    know the citizenship law of that particular country.

    Another possibility, BTW, is that the child =might= end up getting
    the citizenship of the country in which the ship or plane is
    registered. This is true for Canada, AFAIK -- i.e., a child born
    in international waters or airspace aboard a Canadian-registered
    ship or aircraft is considered to have been born in Canada, and
    thus automatically a Canadian citizen under Canadian law. But for
    other countries, you'd have to research that country's laws to be
    certain.

    Finally, note again that a child born under such circumstances can
    =very= easily end up with more than one citizenship. And although
    some countries require "born dual" citizens to choose a single
    citizenship when they grow up, others (such as Canada and the US)
    do not. It would definitely be wise for the parents in such a
    situation to research the citizenship laws of =all= countries
    involved =very= carefully -- both to find out what their child's
    opportunities are (if any) as a citizen of each country, and also
    to find out what obligations might apply to the child later on
    (for example, is the country to which the ship was registered going
    to draft the child into its army if and when he/she ever goes to
    visit that country, or even if he/she travels on a ship or aircraft
    registered in that country?).

    Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
    *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
    or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
    are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

  6. #6

    Default Born In International waters

    On 11/09/03 03:24, in article 957426.1063247057@britishexpats.com,
    "astrokid14" <member15115@britishexpats.com> wrote:
    What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters?
    Very few countries now grant nationality based on the flag of the ship or
    aircraft on which a baby is born. Ireland comes to mind.

    The US and the UK restrict the grant of their nationality to infants born of
    parent(s) with their nationality based on prior residence (US) or place of
    birth (UK) in the respective country, among other factors.

    Birth in international waters means that the treaty for reduction of
    statelessness does not come into play.

    Most European countries other than Britain will grant their nationality to
    any child born of its nationals (mother or father), wherever the birth
    occurs. San Marino was the last country to equalize the status of mothers
    and fathers in this respect, in 1999.

    There may be some difficulty in proving the facts of birth if the child is
    born on a private yacht rather than a steamship. Presumably DNA evidence
    would be acceptable. It appears that there is no small amount of fraud these
    days in birth registrations, including the registration of "birth" in
    developing countries by an adopting "mother" in lieu of formal international
    adoption formalities.



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    Default Born In International waters

    Espar Rüggli wrote:
    Very few countries now grant nationality based on the flag of the ship or aircraft on which a baby is born. Ireland comes to mind.
    Also Canada. [Citizenship Act, 2(2)(a).]

    Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
    *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
    or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
    are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

  8. #8
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    Default Born In International waters


    Originally posted by astrokid14
    What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters?




    It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US
    citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to
    be a US citizen.


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    Default Born In International waters


    Originally posted by jaytee
    It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to be a US citizen.


    i have always been unclear on this, so 2 american parents travel to
    thailand and the mother gives birth to their child. The child is
    understood to be american and should be registered at the US consulate,

    however 2 thai parents travel to the Us and the mom gives birth, the
    child is automatically american, there is no foriegn registraation at
    the thai embassy or anything unless the parents are diplomats.



    No i am not thai i just used that as an example. Is the observation
    above correct??


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    Default Born In International waters


    Originally posted by factorus
    i have always been unclear on this, so 2 american parents travel to thailand and the mother gives birth to their child. The child is understood to be american and should be registered at the US consulate,
    however 2 thai parents travel to the Us and the mom gives birth, the child is automatically american, there is no foriegn registraation at the thai embassy or anything unless the parents are diplomats.

    No i am not thai i just used that as an example. Is the observation above correct??


    I am not clear on how it works for illegals who have kids in the US.



    The thai parents have to be legal immigrants. If they have a kid in the
    US, it might be a citizen, but the parents will be deported and won't be
    eligible for citizenship until the child reaches the age of 21. So, my
    understanding is that, if they are illegal, they will all be sent back
    together so as not to separate the US citizen child from the parents.
    21 years is a long time.



    If they are legally here, then the kid will be a US citizen and
    possibly also have thai citizenship by descent, depending on thai laws.
    But, imagine a pregnant thai woman tries to come into the US on a
    travel visa...


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    Default Born In International waters

    jaytee <member6856@britishexpats.com> wrote in message news:<961130.1063445929@britishexpats.com>...
    It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to be a US citizen.
    Not entirely true. I have a case where the mother was told by the US
    consular assistant that she would have to present all her US passports
    from her birth to prove that she had lived 365 uninterrupted days in
    the USA to pass on her citizenship. If she were married to an alien,
    she would have to prove 5 years total residence in the USA.

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    Default Born In International waters


    Originally posted by Blatt
    jaytee <member6856@britishexpats.com> wrote in message news:<961130.1063445929@britishexpats.com>...

    It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US
    citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to
    be a US citizen.

    Not entirely true. I have a case where the mother was told by the US
    consular assistant that she would have to present all her US passports
    from her birth to prove that she had lived 365 uninterrupted days in
    the USA to pass on her citizenship. If she were married to an alien,
    she would have to prove 5 years total residence in the USA.


    Wow. That stinks, but I guess that is the **** beaurocracy we have to
    live with. I suppose they are just making it unnecessarily
    difficult. Who keeps all their old passports and what does that have
    to do with being a US citizen? They can't just make up their own
    rules to prove citizenship can they?.. well, I guess they can try to
    get away with it...


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    Default Born In International waters

    > > What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S.
    and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters? It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to be a US citizen.
    Usually, but not always. There are different physical presence or residency
    requirements that the parent(s) must meet, depending on when the
    birth took place, and whether the parents were married at the time of the
    birth. It is very possible for a child to be born outside the US, to a US citizen
    parent, and not be a US citizen.

    Stephen Gallagher

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    Default Born In International waters


    Originally posted by Stephen Gallagher
    What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S.
    and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France
    and Germany and you are born in international waters?

    It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US
    citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to
    be a US citizen.

    Usually, but not always. There are different physical presence or residency
    requirements that the parent(s) must meet, depending on when the
    birth took place, and whether the parents were married at the time of the
    birth. It is very possible for a child to be born outside the US, to a US citizen
    parent, and not be a US citizen.

    Stephen Gallagher


    well, that actually makes sense if the parent wasn't a citizen at the
    time of the birth. I was under the impression that once the parent gets
    citizenship, the under21 kids get it automatically.


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    Default Born In International waters

    jaytee <member6856@britishexpats.com> wrote in message news:<962234.1063537821@britishexpats.com>...

    well, that actually makes sense if the parent wasn't a citizen at the time of the birth. I was under the impression that once the parent gets citizenship, the under 21 kids get it automatically.
    Some countries (Switzerland) do not consider place of birth relevant,
    although Switzerland will revoke the citizenship of someone born
    abroad who, remaining abroad, fails to register with a Swiss commune
    or diplomatic mission by the age of 22. For the USA, there is
    Constitutional citizenship (actually Common Law allegiance, restated
    in the 14th Amendment that applies to all persons born in the
    Continental USA plus AK & HI under US sovereign control -- i.e, all
    but those born to 2 alien parents with diplomatic or occupying
    military status) and statutory citizenship. The latter is conditioned
    on whatever Congress imposed: residence of parents, different
    depending on whether parents are married, whether both are US
    citizens, etc. That the law was carelessly drafted is shown by the
    State Department's practice of deeming postnatal naturalization of a
    parent, or for that matter postnatal legitimation, as affording
    citizenship, if it was not secured at birth. (Married US citizens
    require only one to have had a residence, however brief, in the USA to
    pass citizenship.)

    US law does not flinch from leaving the child of one US parent, born
    abroad, to be stateless. In most instances, the child of two US
    parents will be a US citizen unless neither parent has ever been in
    the USA.

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    Default Born In International waters

    jaytee <member6856@britishexpats.com> wrote in message news:<962234.1063537821@britishexpats.com>...
    Originally posted by Stephen Gallagher
    > What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. > and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France > and Germany and you are born in international waters? It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to be a US citizen. Usually, but not always. There are different physical presence or residency requirements that the parent(s) must meet, depending on when the birth took place, and whether the parents were married at the time of the birth. It is very possible for a child to be born outside the US, to a US citizen parent, and not be a US citizen. Stephen Gallagher
    well, that actually makes sense if the parent wasn't a citizen at the time of the birth. I was under the impression that once the parent gets citizenship, the under21 kids get it automatically.
    But what can sometimes happen is that the parent is already a US
    citizen at the time of the birth, but he/she has not fulfilled the
    required period of physical presence (or residency if both
    parents are US citizens), in order to pass citizenship to children
    born abroad. When this happens, the foreign born child does not receive US
    citizenship at birth. There are, however, ways for a child to receive
    US citizenship through a US citizen grandparent, and/or if the US
    citizen parent returns to the US. But in these cases, the citizenship
    will not be automatic. It must be applied for.

    Stephen

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    Default Born In International waters

    "factorus" wrote:
    i have always been unclear on this, so 2 american parents travel to thailand and the mother gives birth to their child. The child is understood to be american and should be registered at the US consulate,
    The child is (most likely) "understood" to be American as far as
    American law is concerned. Thai law might not necessarily agree.

    US law says that if a married couple, both of whom are US citizens,
    have a child born outside the US, the child is a US citizen as long
    as at least one of the parents lived in the US at some time during
    his/her life prior to the child's birth. [Immigration and Nationality
    Act, 301(c); also found in the official compilation of US law known
    as the United States Code, 8 USC 1401(c).]

    The parents should indeed register their child's birth with officials
    at a US consulate or embassy. The child is still a US citizen (as
    far as the US is concerned) even if the parents fail to register
    him/her, but it might be harder and more expensive to establish the
    child's US citizenship later on, so timely registration is desirable.

    Depending on the laws of the country where the child is born, of
    course, it's possible that the child might also be considered to be
    a citizen of his/her country of birth. In other words, the child
    may end up with "dual" citizenship. The US will ignore any other
    country's claim on the child and insist on treating him/her solely
    as a US citizen -- just as the other country will probably ignore
    the US's claim on the child and insist on treating him/her solely
    as one of its own citizens. However, US law won't object to the
    other country's claim, and (contrary to widely held misconceptions)
    the child will =NOT= be required under US law to choose a single
    citizenship when he/she grows up -- though it's conceivable that
    the other country in question might impose such a requirement.

    I don't know anything at all about Thailand's citizenship laws, so
    I haven't a clue as to whether a child born in Thailand to American
    tourists would be claimed by Thailand as one of its citizens or not.
    If (and, again, I'm saying "if") Thailand does consider such a child
    to be a Thai citizen, then you have a situation where the US thinks
    the child is a US citizen, and Thailand think the child is a Thai
    citizen, and neither country gives a hoot about what the other one
    thinks.
    however 2 thai parents travel to the Us and the mom gives birth, the child is automatically american,
    The child is indeed American as far as American law is concerned --
    though he/she might also be Thai, as far as Thailand is concerned.

    The US Constitution (the "citizenship clause" at the beginning of
    the 14th Amendment) says that anyone born in the US (except for a
    child of a foreign diplomat, on account of "diplomatic immunity"
    from the jurisdiction of US laws) is a US citizen. So yes, a US-born
    child of Thai tourists is a US citizen, just like anyone else born
    in the US.

    In fact, even if the parents were in the US illegally, their child
    would still have automatic US citizenship by birth. Some Americans
    are incensed at the idea that a US-born child of illegal aliens is
    a US citizen, but the almost universal consensus of legal experts
    who have studied the question carefully is that there's no way to
    change this without amending the Constitution.

    Note that having a US-born child does =NOT= confer any immigration
    status upon foreign parents. The child can apply to sponsor his/her
    parents for immigration to the US, but not until he/she is 21.
    there is no foreign registration at the thai embassy or anything unless the parents are diplomats.
    That's probably =NOT= true. Depending on Thai law (or the laws of
    whatever country the parents are from), a US-born child may very
    possibly also have a claim to citizenship in the parents' country
    (or countries, if the parents have different citizenships or more
    than one citizenship each). And in this case, the parents would
    in fact be strongly advised to register their child's birth with
    consular officials of their home country (or countries).

    Keep in mind that each country in the world has its own laws which
    establish who its citizens are. As I mentioned earlier, it is
    entirely possible for two or more countries to all decide that a
    given person is a citizen -- and in this event, the child would be
    what is commonly called a "dual" (or multiple) citizen.

    When people talk about citizenship, they frequently have the idea
    in the back of their heads that any given individual can obviously
    have only one citizenship -- that if a child is a citizen of country
    A, that means by definition that he can't also be a citizen of
    country B -- but since citizenship is decided by each country,
    acting entirely on its own, and usually without any regard for the
    citizenship laws of any other country, it's likely to be misleading
    to think of citizenship in exclusive terms like these.

    Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
    *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
    or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
    are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

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    Default Born In International waters

    "jaytee" wrote:
    I am not clear on how it works for illegals who have kids in the US.
    Any child born in the US (except for a child of foreign diplomats)
    is a US citizen, as far as US law is concerned.
    The thai parents have to be legal immigrants. . . . If they are legally here, then the kid will be a US citizen . . . .
    No, the parents' immigration status doesn't matter. Their US-born
    child will have US citizenship, under US law, regardless of whether
    the parents were in the US legally at the time of the child's birth.

    Depending on what Thailand's citizenship law says, a US-born child
    of Thai visitors would =probably= also have Thai citizenship. In
    other words, this hypothetical child would most likely have "dual"
    citizenship -- with the US considering him/her a US citizen, and
    Thailand considering him/her a Thai citizen, and neither country
    paying any attention at all to the other's claim on the child.
    but the parents will be deported and won't be eligible for citizenship until the child reaches the age of 21.
    You mean "immigration", not "citizenship". A child who is a US
    citizen can apply to sponsor his/her alien parents for immigration
    to the US (i.e., "green cards"), but not until the child is 21.
    But, imagine a pregnant thai woman tries to come into the US on a travel visa...
    Imagine a woman in late pregnancy (of any nationality) trying to
    fly anywhere. Chances are the airline would refuse to allow her to
    board the plane; the immigration issue probably wouldn't come up.

    Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
    *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
    or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
    are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

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    Default Born In International waters

    "Blatt" wrote:
    Not entirely true. I have a case where the mother was told by the US consular assistant that she would have to present all her US passports from her birth to prove that she had lived 365 uninterrupted days in the USA to pass on her citizenship.
    I assume the mother in question was not married at the time of her
    child's birth outside the US. What you describe sounds exactly like
    the requirement in INA 309(c) [8 USC 1409(c)] for citizenship by
    birth of a child born outside the US, out of wedlock, to an American
    mother.

    This provision in the law (for other readers who might not be familiar
    with it) gives such a child US citizenship at birth, so long as the
    child's American mother had at some point in her life, prior to the
    child's birth, "been physically present in the United States or one
    of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year".

    Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
    *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
    or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
    are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

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