Born In International waters

[astrokid14]

What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and
your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and
Germany and you are born in international waters?


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[Kevin Torkelson]

The citizenship would apply to the country you just left.


"astrokid14" <member15115@britishexpats.com> wrote in message
news:957426.1063247057@britishexpats.com...

What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters? -- Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[Lucy]

"Kevin Torkelson" <kgtorkelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:hJ08b.998$k9.522@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com.. .

The citizenship would apply to the country you just left.

Traditionally I thought it was always the destination (since that's the
first place you'll be in a position to register the birth.) Did that change?

[matrix]

Wow!
If they just left Hong Kong, the baby would be a Chinese citizen then? LOL!

"Kevin Torkelson" <kgtorkelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:hJ08b.998$k9.522@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com.. .
| The citizenship would apply to the country you just left.
|
|
| "astrokid14" <member15115@britishexpats.com> wrote in message
| news:957426.1063247057@britishexpats.com...
| >
| > What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and
| > your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and
| > Germany and you are born in international waters?
| >
| >
| > --
| > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
|
|

[Rich Wales]

"astrokid14" wrote:

What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters?

Kevin Torkelson replied:

The citizenship would apply to the country you just left.

"Lucy" replied:

Traditionally I thought it was always the destination (since that's the first place you'll be in a position to register the birth.) Did that change?

There are really two separate questions here:

(1) Will the child acquire citizenship from a parent or parents
(via the legal principle of "ius sanguinis", or citizenship
by descent)?

(2) Will the child acquire citizenship from any country involved
in the trip the parents were on (via the legal principle of
"ius soli", or citizenship by place of birth)?

The answers to both of these questions will depend on the individual
citizenship laws of each of the countries involved. And since it's
a question of multiple countries' laws -- each country acting on its
own and without regard to the laws of any other country -- the child
could very easily end up with more than one citizenship (what is
commonly called "dual" or "multiple" citizenship).

For example, the child in Astrokid14's original question would
definitely have Canadian citizenship at birth, because current
Canadian law says that any child born to a Canadian parent (father
or mother, doesn't matter which) is automatically a Canadian citizen.

It is quite possible (though not absolutely certain) that the child
would also have US citizenship at birth. In an attempt to limit
the proliferation of endless generations of foreign-born "Americans"
with no real ties to the US, there are complicated restrictions in
US citizenship law relating to foreign-born children of US citizens.
But if the child's American mother had grown up in the US, it's very
likely that the child would have US citizenship at birth. If the
mother had spent very little time in the US, though, the child might
end up =not= having US citizenship, despite his American mother.

I don't know any details about either French or German citizenship
law, so I can't say for sure whether (or under what conditions) a
foreign-born child of a French or German father is considered (by
France or Germany, respectively) to have that country's citizenship.
Again, the answer depends on the laws of each country involved.

As for the "international waters" issue, that will also depend on
the laws of individual countries; any generalization like "the
country you just left" or "the destination" is unsafe unless you
know the citizenship law of that particular country.

Another possibility, BTW, is that the child =might= end up getting
the citizenship of the country in which the ship or plane is
registered. This is true for Canada, AFAIK -- i.e., a child born
in international waters or airspace aboard a Canadian-registered
ship or aircraft is considered to have been born in Canada, and
thus automatically a Canadian citizen under Canadian law. But for
other countries, you'd have to research that country's laws to be
certain.

Finally, note again that a child born under such circumstances can
=very= easily end up with more than one citizenship. And although
some countries require "born dual" citizens to choose a single
citizenship when they grow up, others (such as Canada and the US)
do not. It would definitely be wise for the parents in such a
situation to research the citizenship laws of =all= countries
involved =very= carefully -- both to find out what their child's
opportunities are (if any) as a citizen of each country, and also
to find out what obligations might apply to the child later on
(for example, is the country to which the ship was registered going
to draft the child into its army if and when he/she ever goes to
visit that country, or even if he/she travels on a ship or aircraft
registered in that country?).

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

[Espar R=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=ggli]

On 11/09/03 03:24, in article 957426.1063247057@britishexpats.com,
"astrokid14" <member15115@britishexpats.com> wrote:

What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters?

Very few countries now grant nationality based on the flag of the ship or
aircraft on which a baby is born. Ireland comes to mind.

The US and the UK restrict the grant of their nationality to infants born of
parent(s) with their nationality based on prior residence (US) or place of
birth (UK) in the respective country, among other factors.

Birth in international waters means that the treaty for reduction of
statelessness does not come into play.

Most European countries other than Britain will grant their nationality to
any child born of its nationals (mother or father), wherever the birth
occurs. San Marino was the last country to equalize the status of mothers
and fathers in this respect, in 1999.

There may be some difficulty in proving the facts of birth if the child is
born on a private yacht rather than a steamship. Presumably DNA evidence
would be acceptable. It appears that there is no small amount of fraud these
days in birth registrations, including the registration of "birth" in
developing countries by an adopting "mother" in lieu of formal international
adoption formalities.

[Rich Wales]

Espar Rüggli wrote:

Very few countries now grant nationality based on the flag of the ship or aircraft on which a baby is born. Ireland comes to mind.

Also Canada. [Citizenship Act, 2(2)(a).]

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

[jaytee]

Originally posted by astrokid14

What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters?

It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US
citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to
be a US citizen.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[factorus]

Originally posted by jaytee

It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to be a US citizen.

i have always been unclear on this, so 2 american parents travel to
thailand and the mother gives birth to their child. The child is
understood to be american and should be registered at the US consulate,

however 2 thai parents travel to the Us and the mom gives birth, the
child is automatically american, there is no foriegn registraation at
the thai embassy or anything unless the parents are diplomats.



No i am not thai i just used that as an example. Is the observation
above correct??


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[jaytee]

Originally posted by factorus

i have always been unclear on this, so 2 american parents travel to thailand and the mother gives birth to their child. The child is understood to be american and should be registered at the US consulate,
however 2 thai parents travel to the Us and the mom gives birth, the child is automatically american, there is no foriegn registraation at the thai embassy or anything unless the parents are diplomats.

No i am not thai i just used that as an example. Is the observation above correct??

I am not clear on how it works for illegals who have kids in the US.



The thai parents have to be legal immigrants. If they have a kid in the
US, it might be a citizen, but the parents will be deported and won't be
eligible for citizenship until the child reaches the age of 21. So, my
understanding is that, if they are illegal, they will all be sent back
together so as not to separate the US citizen child from the parents.
21 years is a long time.



If they are legally here, then the kid will be a US citizen and
possibly also have thai citizenship by descent, depending on thai laws.
But, imagine a pregnant thai woman tries to come into the US on a
travel visa...


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[Blatt]

jaytee <member6856@britishexpats.com> wrote in message news:<961130.1063445929@britishexpats.com>...

It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to be a US citizen.

Not entirely true. I have a case where the mother was told by the US
consular assistant that she would have to present all her US passports
from her birth to prove that she had lived 365 uninterrupted days in
the USA to pass on her citizenship. If she were married to an alien,
she would have to prove 5 years total residence in the USA.

[jaytee]

Originally posted by Blatt

jaytee <member6856@britishexpats.com> wrote in message news:<961130.1063445929@britishexpats.com>...

It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US
citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to
be a US citizen.

Not entirely true. I have a case where the mother was told by the US
consular assistant that she would have to present all her US passports
from her birth to prove that she had lived 365 uninterrupted days in
the USA to pass on her citizenship. If she were married to an alien,
she would have to prove 5 years total residence in the USA.

Wow. That stinks, but I guess that is the **** beaurocracy we have to
live with. I suppose they are just making it unnecessarily
difficult. Who keeps all their old passports and what does that have
to do with being a US citizen? They can't just make up their own
rules to prove citizenship can they?.. well, I guess they can try to
get away with it...


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[Stephen Gallagher]

> > What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S.

and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France and Germany and you are born in international waters? It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to be a US citizen.

Usually, but not always. There are different physical presence or residency
requirements that the parent(s) must meet, depending on when the
birth took place, and whether the parents were married at the time of the
birth. It is very possible for a child to be born outside the US, to a US citizen
parent, and not be a US citizen.

Stephen Gallagher

[jaytee]

Originally posted by Stephen Gallagher

What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S.
and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France
and Germany and you are born in international waters?

It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US
citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to
be a US citizen.

Usually, but not always. There are different physical presence or residency
requirements that the parent(s) must meet, depending on when the
birth took place, and whether the parents were married at the time of the
birth. It is very possible for a child to be born outside the US, to a US citizen
parent, and not be a US citizen.

Stephen Gallagher

well, that actually makes sense if the parent wasn't a citizen at the
time of the birth. I was under the impression that once the parent gets
citizenship, the under21 kids get it automatically.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[Blatt]

jaytee <member6856@britishexpats.com> wrote in message news:<962234.1063537821@britishexpats.com>...

well, that actually makes sense if the parent wasn't a citizen at the time of the birth. I was under the impression that once the parent gets citizenship, the under 21 kids get it automatically.

Some countries (Switzerland) do not consider place of birth relevant,
although Switzerland will revoke the citizenship of someone born
abroad who, remaining abroad, fails to register with a Swiss commune
or diplomatic mission by the age of 22. For the USA, there is
Constitutional citizenship (actually Common Law allegiance, restated
in the 14th Amendment that applies to all persons born in the
Continental USA plus AK & HI under US sovereign control -- i.e, all
but those born to 2 alien parents with diplomatic or occupying
military status) and statutory citizenship. The latter is conditioned
on whatever Congress imposed: residence of parents, different
depending on whether parents are married, whether both are US
citizens, etc. That the law was carelessly drafted is shown by the
State Department's practice of deeming postnatal naturalization of a
parent, or for that matter postnatal legitimation, as affording
citizenship, if it was not secured at birth. (Married US citizens
require only one to have had a residence, however brief, in the USA to
pass citizenship.)

US law does not flinch from leaving the child of one US parent, born
abroad, to be stateless. In most instances, the child of two US
parents will be a US citizen unless neither parent has ever been in
the USA.

[Stephen Gallagher]

jaytee <member6856@britishexpats.com> wrote in message news:<962234.1063537821@britishexpats.com>...

Originally posted by Stephen Gallagher

> What happens if your mom has dual citizenship of Canada and the U.S. > and your dad has dual citizenship of some other countries like France > and Germany and you are born in international waters? It is based on parentage in many cases. For instance, as a US citizen you can have your baby anywhere and the kid is still going to be a US citizen. Usually, but not always. There are different physical presence or residency requirements that the parent(s) must meet, depending on when the birth took place, and whether the parents were married at the time of the birth. It is very possible for a child to be born outside the US, to a US citizen parent, and not be a US citizen. Stephen Gallagher

well, that actually makes sense if the parent wasn't a citizen at the time of the birth. I was under the impression that once the parent gets citizenship, the under21 kids get it automatically.

But what can sometimes happen is that the parent is already a US
citizen at the time of the birth, but he/she has not fulfilled the
required period of physical presence (or residency if both
parents are US citizens), in order to pass citizenship to children
born abroad. When this happens, the foreign born child does not receive US
citizenship at birth. There are, however, ways for a child to receive
US citizenship through a US citizen grandparent, and/or if the US
citizen parent returns to the US. But in these cases, the citizenship
will not be automatic. It must be applied for.

Stephen

[Rich Wales]

"factorus" wrote:

i have always been unclear on this, so 2 american parents travel to thailand and the mother gives birth to their child. The child is understood to be american and should be registered at the US consulate,

The child is (most likely) "understood" to be American as far as
American law is concerned. Thai law might not necessarily agree.

US law says that if a married couple, both of whom are US citizens,
have a child born outside the US, the child is a US citizen as long
as at least one of the parents lived in the US at some time during
his/her life prior to the child's birth. [Immigration and Nationality
Act, 301(c); also found in the official compilation of US law known
as the United States Code, 8 USC 1401(c).]

The parents should indeed register their child's birth with officials
at a US consulate or embassy. The child is still a US citizen (as
far as the US is concerned) even if the parents fail to register
him/her, but it might be harder and more expensive to establish the
child's US citizenship later on, so timely registration is desirable.

Depending on the laws of the country where the child is born, of
course, it's possible that the child might also be considered to be
a citizen of his/her country of birth. In other words, the child
may end up with "dual" citizenship. The US will ignore any other
country's claim on the child and insist on treating him/her solely
as a US citizen -- just as the other country will probably ignore
the US's claim on the child and insist on treating him/her solely
as one of its own citizens. However, US law won't object to the
other country's claim, and (contrary to widely held misconceptions)
the child will =NOT= be required under US law to choose a single
citizenship when he/she grows up -- though it's conceivable that
the other country in question might impose such a requirement.

I don't know anything at all about Thailand's citizenship laws, so
I haven't a clue as to whether a child born in Thailand to American
tourists would be claimed by Thailand as one of its citizens or not.
If (and, again, I'm saying "if") Thailand does consider such a child
to be a Thai citizen, then you have a situation where the US thinks
the child is a US citizen, and Thailand think the child is a Thai
citizen, and neither country gives a hoot about what the other one
thinks.

however 2 thai parents travel to the Us and the mom gives birth, the child is automatically american,

The child is indeed American as far as American law is concerned --
though he/she might also be Thai, as far as Thailand is concerned.

The US Constitution (the "citizenship clause" at the beginning of
the 14th Amendment) says that anyone born in the US (except for a
child of a foreign diplomat, on account of "diplomatic immunity"
from the jurisdiction of US laws) is a US citizen. So yes, a US-born
child of Thai tourists is a US citizen, just like anyone else born
in the US.

In fact, even if the parents were in the US illegally, their child
would still have automatic US citizenship by birth. Some Americans
are incensed at the idea that a US-born child of illegal aliens is
a US citizen, but the almost universal consensus of legal experts
who have studied the question carefully is that there's no way to
change this without amending the Constitution.

Note that having a US-born child does =NOT= confer any immigration
status upon foreign parents. The child can apply to sponsor his/her
parents for immigration to the US, but not until he/she is 21.

there is no foreign registration at the thai embassy or anything unless the parents are diplomats.

That's probably =NOT= true. Depending on Thai law (or the laws of
whatever country the parents are from), a US-born child may very
possibly also have a claim to citizenship in the parents' country
(or countries, if the parents have different citizenships or more
than one citizenship each). And in this case, the parents would
in fact be strongly advised to register their child's birth with
consular officials of their home country (or countries).

Keep in mind that each country in the world has its own laws which
establish who its citizens are. As I mentioned earlier, it is
entirely possible for two or more countries to all decide that a
given person is a citizen -- and in this event, the child would be
what is commonly called a "dual" (or multiple) citizen.

When people talk about citizenship, they frequently have the idea
in the back of their heads that any given individual can obviously
have only one citizenship -- that if a child is a citizen of country
A, that means by definition that he can't also be a citizen of
country B -- but since citizenship is decided by each country,
acting entirely on its own, and usually without any regard for the
citizenship laws of any other country, it's likely to be misleading
to think of citizenship in exclusive terms like these.

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

[Rich Wales]

"jaytee" wrote:

I am not clear on how it works for illegals who have kids in the US.

Any child born in the US (except for a child of foreign diplomats)
is a US citizen, as far as US law is concerned.

The thai parents have to be legal immigrants. . . . If they are legally here, then the kid will be a US citizen . . . .

No, the parents' immigration status doesn't matter. Their US-born
child will have US citizenship, under US law, regardless of whether
the parents were in the US legally at the time of the child's birth.

Depending on what Thailand's citizenship law says, a US-born child
of Thai visitors would =probably= also have Thai citizenship. In
other words, this hypothetical child would most likely have "dual"
citizenship -- with the US considering him/her a US citizen, and
Thailand considering him/her a Thai citizen, and neither country
paying any attention at all to the other's claim on the child.

but the parents will be deported and won't be eligible for citizenship until the child reaches the age of 21.

You mean "immigration", not "citizenship". A child who is a US
citizen can apply to sponsor his/her alien parents for immigration
to the US (i.e., "green cards"), but not until the child is 21.

But, imagine a pregnant thai woman tries to come into the US on a travel visa...

Imagine a woman in late pregnancy (of any nationality) trying to
fly anywhere. Chances are the airline would refuse to allow her to
board the plane; the immigration issue probably wouldn't come up.

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

[Rich Wales]

"Blatt" wrote:

Not entirely true. I have a case where the mother was told by the US consular assistant that she would have to present all her US passports from her birth to prove that she had lived 365 uninterrupted days in the USA to pass on her citizenship.

I assume the mother in question was not married at the time of her
child's birth outside the US. What you describe sounds exactly like
the requirement in INA 309(c) [8 USC 1409(c)] for citizenship by
birth of a child born outside the US, out of wedlock, to an American
mother.

This provision in the law (for other readers who might not be familiar
with it) gives such a child US citizenship at birth, so long as the
child's American mother had at some point in her life, prior to the
child's birth, "been physically present in the United States or one
of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year".

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.