Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Unemployment Claim Denied. Not Meeting Quota = Misconduct?? Texas

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default Unemployment Claim Denied. Not Meeting Quota = Misconduct?? Texas

    Was fired Feb. 11, 2013 for not meeting my quota. Had been with company since June 2012.

    The companhy's main focus is vehicle leasing. They have had a dedicated salesperson work on equipment leasing in the past, and it has never worked out. Prior to agreeing to work for them, I asked what would be different this time around as I did not want to quite a job where I had been for almost 3 years to work at a position that has never been successful in the past. I asked the president of the company and the VP of Sales what was going to be done differently this time around to ensure success in the position. I was told by the president of the co. that they were going to give all the equipment leasing leads to me.

    At the Oct. sales meeting the president of the company announced that all the inside sales reps and the one other outside sales rep (who, by the way, is married to the daughter of the bank's president who routinely refers bank customers to my previous employer. In turn, the chairman of my previous employer is on the board of directors of the bank) needed to close as many equipment leases as they could as I would be handling all equipment leases beginning Nov. 1 - the start of the new fiscal year.

    On Nov. 1 I met with my supervisor to go over my sales quota, which was in-line with what the company had done in the previous year. I felt very comfortable with the quota since I would be handling all the equipment leases. I had to sign the bottom of the form that included "I acknowledge that my failure to achieve year-to-date quota for each month may be considered job-related misconduct subject to disciplinary action, up to and including termination."

    I was never given any equipment lease leads as promised from the company but continued to do the best I could and did continue to bring in new business. In the 7 1/2 months I was with the company I was awarded "salesman of the month" 3 times. In addition, I was the only person in the company to win an on-going contest for new business that met certain criteria. At the Nov. sales meeting I was presented with the $1,000 cash prize. Also, I was selected as the best salesperson to participate in a trade show that was held in Oct. and given $100 cash for winning the contest.

    Imagine my surprise and shock when I was fired Feb. 11, 2013!

    The other sales rep, who is in his mid 20's and married to the banker's daughter, was doing worse that I was - even after being fed leads from the company, and was not let go.

    I immediately filed an unemployment claim. My previous employer denied the claim, but the TWC sided with me and I eventually started to received my unemployment benefits. The ex-employer appealed the claim, and a telephone hearing was held last week. It appears that the TWC has reversed their decision.

    Is it worthwhile to appeal this decision? Is there anything else I can do to have the unemployment reinstated?

    Thank you for your input and advice!

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Republic of Texas
    Posts
    709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lee1008 View Post
    It appears that the TWC has reversed their decision.

    Is it worthwhile to appeal this decision? Is there anything else I can do to have the unemployment reinstated?

    Thank you for your input and advice!
    How does it "appear" that TWC has reversed the award?

    If no redetermination has been issued, there is nothing to appeal, and I doubt that you have received a redetermination order less than a week after a hearing. IF you get an order, and it is adverse to you, certainly you should appeal. There is no cost (and no penalty) to do so, and not appealing an adverse decision will certainly not gain you anything.

    Generally, TWC will not deny UI for misconduct if the claimant shows that they genuinely tried to do the job, but were not able to do so. Was there evidence introduced at the appeal to support the employer's claim of "willful misconduct"?

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas709 View Post
    How does it "appear" that TWC has reversed the award?

    If no redetermination has been issued, there is nothing to appeal, and I doubt that you have received a redetermination order less than a week after a hearing. IF you get an order, and it is adverse to you, certainly you should appeal. There is no cost (and no penalty) to do so, and not appealing an adverse decision will certainly not gain you anything.

    Generally, TWC will not deny UI for misconduct if the claimant shows that they genuinely tried to do the job, but were not able to do so. Was there evidence introduced at the appeal to support the employer's claim of "willful misconduct"?
    Many thanks for your speedy reply!!

    I logged into the TWC website and went to the "Appeals List" and then clicked on "Decision Summary." It says the decision was made on Friday and it says "We reversed the previous ruling." Of course, I have not received anything in the mail yet.

    There was absolutely no evidence given other than the form I signed in Nov. with my quota and that said "failure to reach quota may be considered job-related misconduct." I was a dilligent employee. I worked hard. The day I was fired I was told by my boss, the EVP of Sales, that he liked me and that he would see if any of his friends / associates could use someone like me.

    I was not "written up" and had no advance warning that I was going to be let go. However, I did know that they were hiring a sales rep from a direct competitor in the car leasing industry. He was starting a few days after I was let go. The employer had a very strict budget and would not even buy copy paper or paper clips if it wasn't in the budget. I suspect that I was let go to make room for a car leasing sales rep as, once again, the equipment side was not living up to the company's expectations. It is much easier to lease a car that has a residual at the end. The company would not assign a residual to any equipment other than a certain type of forklift. The company was not competitive. The bank who my previous employer worked with often would subsidize the rate to its customers who they referred to the leasing co. I had a new customer approved who I discovered on my own, but I was $800 more A MONTH over a 60 month term than his own bank. NOT competitive at all!

    What kind of new evidence will I need to show the TWC in order for them to approve another hearing?

    Thanks again for any input!!

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,058

    Default

    You need to wait to get the paperwork which should tell you why they made the decision to reverse and what you can do to appeal.

    They do publish an "appeals" precedent manual at : http://www.twc.state.tx.us/ui/appl/u...ual.html...you could look through that to see if you can find something that is applicable to your set of circumstances, BUT I will say that each set of details can have a different answer, so it's not always apples to apples. Be careful of trying to apply anything that doesn't really fit. Bt it might give you an idea on what to argue with your set of facts.

  5. #5

    Default

    If I'm understanding things, you had an appeal with an ALJ/hearing officer. You won't be able to introduce new evidence unless there was a reason it couldn't be obtained for the first hearing. Any further appeal will be limited to only a review of the record.

    You're going to need the decision from this appeal because it will have a decently sized write up with "findings of fact" and "reasonings and conclusions of law." I'm surprised that you were denied, but only after reading the decision will you have any clue of what testimony got you the adverse decision.

    Also, if you do think you you want to go to the board of review, order the transcript/recording of the hearing now. You may very well find that the written decision uses a misquote from the hearing that would change the interpretation.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Republic of Texas
    Posts
    709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lee1008 View Post
    There was absolutely no evidence given other than the form I signed in Nov. with my quota and that said "failure to reach quota may be considered job-related misconduct."
    What kind of new evidence will I need to show the TWC in order for them to approve another hearing?
    If you get a decision overturning the original grant of benefits, you'll want to appeal that, citing that there was no willful misconduct on your part. Your employer's assertion that failure to reach quota is 'misconduct' does not rise to the level that TWC must hold that it is. As pointed out, no new evidence will be entertained, but there seems to be a misinterpretation of fact or possibly a misapplication of the rules, so an appeal would be in order. You need the precise language of the determination to see the basis of the language of your appeal.

    Good luck!

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas709 View Post
    If you get a decision overturning the original grant of benefits, you'll want to appeal that, citing that there was no willful misconduct on your part. Your employer's assertion that failure to reach quota is 'misconduct' does not rise to the level that TWC must hold that it is. As pointed out, no new evidence will be entertained, but there seems to be a misinterpretation of fact or possibly a misapplication of the rules, so an appeal would be in order. You need the precise language of the determination to see the basis of the language of your appeal.

    Good luck!
    So, so many thanks for all of you who have taken the time to respond to my situation. I truly appreciate all the input and advice!

    I did read the precedents, and that is why I was so distraught when I saw that the TWC had reversed its original decision to allow the unemployment benefits as NO WILLFUL MISCONDUCT was ever discussed at the hearing (and no willful misconduct ever occurred). My previous employer simply said that I had a certain quota, signed the beginning-of-the-fiscal-year form which stated that I could be terminated, and did not meet my quota after the first quarter.

    After I receive the written notification I will return to the forum and update you.

    Again, thank you all very much!

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default Rec'd Tribunal Decision - very confusing

    I received the tribunal decision, and I find it to be contradictory. I intend to appeal and need advice.

    Under Findings of Fact it states, "The claimant was terminated for poor job performance. The claimant was presented with a sales quota of 20 transactions to be achieved by October 2012 at the time of hire [June 1, 2012]. The claimant failed to accomplish her sales quota. In Nov. 2012, the claimant was presented and agreed to a sales quota for a total of 54 sales transactions to be achieved by the end of Oct. 2013. The compensation plan states that the claimant's failure to achieve year to date quota for each month may be considered job related misconduct subject to disciplinary action up to and including termination. The claimant was aware of the agreement and signed the document stating that she received and understood it. On Feb. 11, 2013 that claimant had received only 2 sales and had a sales quota of 13. Subsequetly, the claimant was terminated under the terms of the compensation plan."

    Under Conclusions, it says, "The following decision has been adopted as a precendent by the Commisison in Section MC 300.05 of the Appeals Policy and Precedent Manual.

    "Appeal No. 1123-CA-76. An employee's failure to meet the employer's production standards cannot be deemed misconduct connected with the work unless the evidence clearly shows that the individual, in the past, demonstrated an ability to consistently meet the required production standards.

    "The above cited precendent stands for the proposition that a claimant's failure to meet the employer's standards cannot be deemed misconduct connected with the work unless the claimant showed in the past an ability to consistently meet the required production standards by the named employer. In the present case, since the claimant failed to meet the named employer's production requirement which she showd in the past that she could meet and since the claimant agreed to the employer's compensation plan than the claimant's actions of failure to consistently meets her sales quota were a mismanagement of her position of employment and considered misconduct connected with the work under Section 207.044 of the Act. Therefore, the determination dated March 8, 2013 approving benefits without disqualification, will be reversed. The claimant will be disqualified under Section 207.044 . . ."

    I find this to contradict itself as I did not meet my initial sales quota of 20 units for June - Oct. (I believe I brough it 5 equipment leases.) To me, this would demonstrate that I had NOT shown in the past an ability to consistently meet the required production standards by the named employer.

    Also, how do I show that the employer's standard of misconduct by not meeting my assigned sales quota that I signed does not meet the TWC's standard of misconduct? I did continue to work hard and bring in deals, which the company chose not to approve, or if the lease was approved, the company was not competitive with the marketplace and the prospect went elsewhere.

    I did face the same challenges as the officers of the company and other sales reps. In the Jan. sales meetings one officer stated that he lost a deal because the prospect was "rate-conscious." At the same meeting another officer said that a prospect who even went to their ranch for a hunting weekend decided to do the deal with their bank since the rate was lower.

    Thank you so very much!

  9. #9

    Default

    I feel terrible that you were denied benefits, but I congratulate you on seeing an error in the the judge's decision.

    You are correct, you NEVER made the quota, and therefore you cannot be held to have committed misconduct based on that cited decision.

    Do you have appeal instructions to go to the next level? If so, what is your time frame for submission? Just how many appeals do you get before you have to take it to the court system? How desperate are you to do this quickly and get your money?

    I ask because for me I had to be certain to include all appealable issues because one never knows which issues will stick. If I had failed to raise an issue at one level, I was not allowed to have the issue considered at a higher level. I was hoping you had time to get the transcript so you could maybe find more stuff.

    I had instructions like this:

    Your appeal may be based on:

    a. Irregularity on part of the presiding officer or other party to proceedings.
    b. Abuse of discretion on part of hearing officer whereby petitioner was deprived of a fair hearing.
    c. Newly discovered evidence which could not with reasonable diligence have been discovered and produced at time of original hearing.
    d. Error in admission or exclusion of evidence in Tribunal hearing.
    e. Error in law in Tribunal hearing, and/or
    f. Other good and sufficient grounds.

    A second issue I see is that your job sounds sales oriented. Therefore whether you met a quota or not in the past, wouldn't necessarily be fair because it could be that what you're selling has outlived its usefulness like VCRs or that external forces made you fail rather than you doing it to yourself. It's not like you were a widget assembler and you just started to slack off.

    To accomplish this:

    Quote Originally Posted by lee1008 View Post
    Also, how do I show that the employer's standard of misconduct by not meeting my assigned sales quota that I signed does not meet the TWC's standard of misconduct? I did continue to work hard and bring in deals, which the company chose not to approve, or if the lease was approved, the company was not competitive with the marketplace and the prospect went elsewhere.
    You simply accuse the ALJ/hearing officer of "not fully developing the record in regards to. . . ."
    Last edited by chyvan; 04-20-2013 at 06:41 PM.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default

    [QUOTE=chyvan;1190225]I feel terrible that you were denied benefits, but I congratulate you on seeing an error in the the judge's decision.

    You are correct, you NEVER made the quota, and therefore you cannot be held to have committed misconduct based on that cited decision.

    Do you have appeal instructions to go to the next level? If so, what is your time frame for submission? Just how many appeals do you get before you have to take it to the court system? How desperate are you to do this quickly and get your money?

    I ask because for me I had to be certain to include all appealable issues because one never knows which issues will stick. If I had failed to raise an issue at one level, I was not allowed to have the issue considered at a higher level. I was hoping you had time to get the transcript so you could maybe find more stuff.

    I had instructions like this:

    Your appeal may be based on:

    a. Irregularity on part of the presiding officer or other party to proceedings.
    b. Abuse of discretion on part of hearing officer whereby petitioner was deprived of a fair hearing.
    c. Newly discovered evidence which could not with reasonable diligence have been discovered and produced at time of original hearing.
    d. Error in admission or exclusion of evidence in Tribunal hearing.
    e. Error in law in Tribunal hearing, and/or
    f. Other good and sufficient grounds.

    A second issue I see is that your job sounds sales oriented. Therefore whether you met a quota or not in the past, wouldn't necessarily be fair because it could be that what you're selling has outlived its usefulness like VCRs or that external forces made you fail rather than you doing it to yourself. It's not like you were a widget assembler and you just started to slack off.

    To accomplish this:



    You simply accuse the ALJ/hearing officer of "not fully developing the record in regards to. . ."


    I am going to appeal the decision made by the Appeal Tribunal via fax today. It appears that I do not have to say why or show any evidence at this point - just request an appeal to the Commission. The step after this is taking it to the court system but specific reasons will have to be shown to take it to this level.

    It says that it may take 6-8 weeks just to hear back. And in the meantime I have no income. Of course, I am continuing my job search.

    Yes, this was a sales position.

    I am shocked that the Tribual overturned the TWC's original decision to grant me unemployment benefits and need to know how to strongly present my case to the next level. I thought it was a cut & dry case during the Appeal Tribunal phone interview that I did not engage in any willful misconduct. Obviously, I was mistaken.

    Again, thanks for your help and input!

  11. #11

    Default

    I think you should submit a small blurb to the commision so they focus on it, and hopefully move quickly.

    In the "findings of fact" the ALJ concluded you didn't meet the quota from your start date, and again found that you didn't meet your quota at the time of your termination. There was no evidence presented that you ever made your quota. Since you had never "clearly and consistently met your quota" the judge's decision is in error.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Republic of Texas
    Posts
    709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lee1008 View Post


    I am going to appeal the decision made by the Appeal Tribunal via fax today. It appears that I do not have to say why or show any evidence at this point - just request an appeal to the Commission. The step after this is taking it to the court system but specific reasons will have to be shown to take it to this level.

    It says that it may take 6-8 weeks just to hear back.

    I am shocked that the Tribual overturned the TWC's original decision to grant me unemployment benefits and need to know how to strongly present my case to the next level. I thought it was a cut & dry case during the Appeal Tribunal phone interview that I did not engage in any willful misconduct.
    Nothing in the appeal process should be a shock, although I'd think you'd have a good chance at convincing the Commission that the determination of misconduct was in error. Your former employer obviously anticipated this, since they worded your agreement so that you would agree with the concept of "job related misconduct" in the failure to attain a sales quota.

    You're correct that you don't have to cite a basis for appeal at this point. You're just reserving your place at the table. I believe the estimate of 6-8 weeks may be boilerplate language, but it could take that long. The Commission appeal process if only a couple of years old, and it's still being developed. It's a lot faster than the old system of district court filing, which can be up to a couple of years, depending on the county.

    Your burden at the time of appeal is to show that you had not made quota previously, or that the quota you made was substantially different fromt the quotas you did not achieve.

  13. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default

    I see that the TWC has received my appeal to the commission due to the facts stated above. Below please see what is says about this appeal:

    "Appeal to the Commission received.

    The Commissioners' decision is normally based on the evidence submitted during the previous hearing. TWC will mail the decision to you. If the Commissioners require additional evidence, TWC will schedule another hearing and notify all parties."

    I don't understand what this means. How do I let them know why I am appealing this (sales quota that was NEVER attained and hence cannot be considered misconduct)? I followed the instructions for appealing the decision but did not state why. Do I need to call someone to fax something as to why I am appealing the decision? For whatever reason, I assumed that my appeal would result in another phone hearing.

    Do they make a decision as to whether there will be another telephone hearing? Or do they make a decision without a further hearing - just review the info they already have?

    How do I further my case at this point? I feel that I need to do present more information or point out the error in the previous decision.

    Thank you!

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,686

    Default

    It is telling you a new set of eyes will review the evidence already submitted and see if you should receive benefits. No additional info will be given unless the new eyes decides it is needed.

  15. #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default Outcome of Commissions Appeal

    I wanted to tell you the outcome of the commissions appeal. I prevailed! I sent a 1 page fax to the commission and focused on my percentage of quota for both quarters since it cannot be labeled "misconduct" if you never successfully did the job to the employer's standards. I wish I had fully "connected the dots" during the conference call when my employer had appealed the Commission's initial approval of my unempoyment benefits. I unfortunately thought that the Commission would fully understand, since this is what they deal with day in and day out. When I appealed to get my unemployment benefits reinstated, I pointed out my % of quota for all the quarters I was with the company. (The numbers were backed up by my notice of termination that the employer had submitted to the Commission as evidence during the first round of appeals.) Even though the Commission already had this information, when I "connected the dots" the Commission reversed its earlier decision and reinstated my benefits. I could have saved myself 6 weeks of worry and no income if I had presented the percentage of quota the first time. Live and learn - and I hope my experience will help others in the same unfortunate predicament.

    Thanks so much for everyone's important input!!

  16. #16

    Default

    I don't think it was you connecting the dots. It took me all of two seconds to see that the ALJ applied the case law incorrectly, and you saw it too. It was clearly in your findings of fact. The ALJ that heard your case knew perfectly well what the deal was.

    This is a classic case of a biased ALJ. It's also perfectly ok for them to do it because your remedy is to appeal again. However, that takes time, and many claimants don't have the know how or resources to keep waiting it out.

    I encourage you to file a complaint against the ALJ. I don't like it when these kinds of ALJ's write drivel that does nothing but frustrate the purpose of the UI system.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,686

    Default

    I see nothing to file a complaint about. I handle many unemployment claims each year (multi state firm). The state will consider the evidence in front of it. It is up to each side to present the facts in their best possible light.

Similar Threads

  1. Can my employee claim unemployment for cut in hours due to misconduct? Illinois
    By tstevens in forum HR Forum for Employers, Managers, & Human Resources
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-31-2011, 10:59 PM
  2. Help with unemployment claim and misconduct. New Jersey
    By cyclernj in forum New Jersey Labor Laws
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-23-2008, 08:48 AM
  3. GA unemployment claim denied - PLEASE HELP Georgia
    By JaneS in forum Georgia Labor Laws
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-21-2008, 06:18 PM
  4. Unemployment denied for misconduct Rhode Island
    By missys in forum Rhode Island Labor Laws
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-20-2007, 08:10 PM
  5. MI- Unemployment Claim Denied
    By Pegg in forum Unemployment
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-11-2006, 11:54 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •