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Thread: Blacklists

  1. #1
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    Default Blacklists

    We occasionally have posters complain that they are being blacklisted and responders saying "no such thing". While that is mostly right, it is not always right. I was going over a newsletter received today, and two different court cases discussing blacklisting were discussed. Sexual predators are functionally a type of blacklist for certain types of jobs. Apparently there are third party blacklists maintained for teachers which schools mostly are not required to honor but sometimes do.

    I am going to suggest that most poster complaints that they are being blacklisted likely are nonsense, but for certain professions, maybe not. I am going to suggest that maybe a little care in answering blacklisting question maybe in order.

    Just my opinion.

    http://links.govdelivery.com/track?t...9_032.STAP.PDF

    http://www.oalj.dol.gov/PUBLIC/ARB/D...8_066.STAP.PDF
    Last edited by DAW; 07-16-2010 at 02:33 PM.
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    I read through each link but I don't see that either claim was upheld as blacklisting. It seems that the cases are still continuing.

    It is a fine line between blacklisting and other companies listening to poor references. What most posters seem to think as blacklisting is more of receiving a bad reference so no one wants to thire them.

    Interesting reading though for a Friday afternoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HRinMA View Post
    I read through each link but I don't see that either claim was upheld as blacklisting. It seems that the cases are still continuing.
    Agreed, although in the truck driver case, there is indeed apparently an official "blacklist" of truck drivers, and the prior employer did indeed file an official form placing the former employee on the list. The court case did not necessarily agree with the employee's claim of damages or improper treatement, but the also court did not disagree that there are indeed blacklists that people do indeed get on. I found the following quote from one of the cases interesting.

    We disagree with the ALJ regarding the blacklisting complaints however, and hold that the complaints based on blacklisting were timely. The Beattys argued to the ALJ that they did not discover that Inman Trucking had submitted a negative DAC report until they were unable to obtain employment in August of 2007. They argued that the statute of limitations did not accrue until they knew of the negative DAC reports. ...

    There is nothing in the record to suggest that Inman Trucking ever communicated its decision to file an arguably negative DAC report to the Beattys. Nor is there anything in the record to suggest that the Beattys were required to look at the DAC report. Because the Beattys did not know of the report until August 2007, their blacklisting claim did not accrue until then. Additionally, we note that the Beattys filed their claim on August 9, 2007, immediately after the DAC report came to their attention in August 2007. Thus, their claim regarding the DAC report is timely. We therefore reverse and remand to the ALJ for findings of fact and conclusions of law on the merits of their claim regarding the blacklisting claims.

    CONCLUSION
    We AFFIRM the ALJ’s recommendation to dismiss the Beattys’ claims based on their terminations as untimely. However, we REVERSE the ALJ’s decision regarding the blacklisting claim because they were timely filed. We therefore REMAND for further proceedings consistent with this decision.
    I am still suggesting that we need to be careful telling posters that there is no such thing as blacklists.

    http://www.truthabouttrucking.com/dacreport/index.html
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    I agree with you to a degree. To make a blanket statement "there are no such thing as blacklists" is probably incorrect. However, employment blacklists such as those people asking questions are talking about, ..well, I've never seen one. That doesnt meet people dont belive they exist.

    When I first moved to this little insular town, I was told that all the HR directors got together on Fridays to decide who would be hired or not (depending on who you knew or what they knew about you.). I heard this over and over and it was basically accepted by everyone in this town that thats how employment happened heree. If you were on the blacklist, you would never get hired in this town.

    I got a job in the next town over and meet with HR from this little town all the time. Everyone has heard of these supposed "Meetings" and they all think its funny. I can tell people that these hiring meetings dont go on, but no one will believe it. Its that ingrained.

    I think its the same thing. People have heard about these "lists" and when they cant get a job (for whatever reason), its easy to blame it on the list rather than something lacking.
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    Here's a thread from LLT with responders discussing "blacklists."

    http://www.laborlawtalk.com:80/showthread.php?t=275211
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    In human services, we definitely have blacklists. A lot of jobs require a child abuse clearance; we don't have this "list" internally, but the State does, and we have to run prospective and ongoing employees against it. This is usually seen as part of the background check process, but since there is a list of people who cannot be hired, then it's actually a blacklist.

    Also, in my state, there is now a list maintained by the State Dept of Human Services of employees in licensed organizations who have been found "responsible" for abuse or neglect of adults with disabilities. These are not criminal records, like child abuse records aften are. These are results of investigations done by state workers, not law enforcement or child welfare officials. There was no legal/court involvement and no due process for people accused. Some of the investigations are not very thorough, include conflicts of interest, and have very low or varying standards of proof for finding a person to be in violation. Our state is pretty zealous about putting people on this list even for more minor violations (yelled at a client, didn't call 911 for a sprained ankle, to name a few). But licensed human service organizations state-wide can't hire people on this list.

    So yeah, there are blacklists, we just don't call them that.

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    In the state of NJ, there is no law at all against "blacklisting." I have a reference with all the states & "blacklisting" info.
    Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. Leo Buscaglia

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    It was my thought that we (responders) mostly agreed that while there is 'blacklisting, or at least the occassional, don't hire John Doe amongst professionals, there is no almighty 'hidden' blacklist that exists amongst CEO's.
    Not everything in America is actionable in a court of law. Please remember that attorneys are in business for profit, and they get paid regardless of whether or not you win or lose.

    I offer my knowledge and experience at no charge, I admit that I am NOT infallible, I am wrong sometimes, hopefully another responder will correct me if that is the case with the answer above, regardless, it is your responsibility to verify any and all information provided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CatBert View Post
    It was my thought that we (responders) mostly agreed that while there is 'blacklisting, or at least the occassional, don't hire John Doe amongst professionals, there is no almighty 'hidden' blacklist that exists amongst CEO's.
    We all know that it is Santa that holds the list not CEOs

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    Wow Betty, I didn't even know there were State laws against blacklisting. I'm interested in which states do, and how do they define "blacklisting."

    If you use the most basic definition, a list of people not eligible for hire, then I wonder if they have exceptions for people who have neglected or abused vulnerable populations, like I mentioned above? I think my state has gone way overboard, but I do see the need for a list of people who should not be allowed to work in programs with the disabled.

    And what do those states say to employers who list ex-employees as "eligible for rehire" and "ineligible for rehire"? I guess they just have to figure out other reasons not to rehire a bad employee.

    Oh, and I just remembers the HHS OIG exclusions list of medical professionals who are ineligible for hire by any healthcare organization that accepts Medicare or Medicaid. That's a federal blacklist, so it must supercede those state laws.
    Last edited by TSCompliance; 07-20-2010 at 08:41 AM.

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    In general, blacklisting implies a conspiracy or active attempt to prevent someone from being hired. I believe that at least one state (NY?) includes that in the definition. So having a list of not-eligible-for-rehire employees would not technically be considered a blacklist; nor would giving a truthful negative reference. But calling up potential employers (or even waiting till they call you) and encouraging them to NOT hire the employee by means of either false, misleading, or malicious information, would be.
    The above answer, whatever it is, assumes that no legally binding and enforceable contract or CBA says otherwise. If it does, then the terms of the contract or CBA apply.

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    That would be slander anyway. I guess I just didn't know that there were legal definitions out there of "blacklist" that don't necessarily match the everyday definition, a list of people not eligible for hire. And many of us have tried to prevent someone from getting hired by another company, but as long as we have legitimate reasons and we don't lie, we're okay.

    I would need to see the statutes, but I'd imagine that the "conspiracy" piece would be really hard to prove. I'll bring this up at my next meeting of the Trilateral Commission at the Bohemian Grove

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    TSCompliance, I will give you an example of what they have under "blacklisting" in my reference using the state I live in - Illinois (I worked in Mo. - it has no law)
    Blacklisting Illinois - Under the Illinois Blacklist Trade Law, financial institutions, government agencies, and shipping companies may not enter into any contract that contains provisions discriminating against any person on the basis of any connection between that person and any other entity.
    Code 775 ILCS 15/1 et seq

    I'll give another example Indiana (some states the info is too much to type out) - Blacklisting Indiana - After discharging an employee, an employer can't prevent the discharged employee from obtaining employment.
    I.C. code 22-5-3-1(a)

    This is the type of info they give under blacklisting for each state though some just say no law of any type.
    Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. Leo Buscaglia

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    Default God Bless Texas

    The Texas Labor Code prohibits blacklisting, complete with a definition:

    Sec. 52.031. BLACKLISTING OFFENSE; PENALTY. (a) In this section, "blacklist" means to place on a book or list or publish the name of an employee of an individual, firm, company, or corporation who was discharged or who voluntarily left that employment, intending to prevent the employee from engaging in or securing employment of any kind with any other person, in either a public or a private capacity.

    (b) A person commits an offense if the person:

    (1) blacklists or causes to be blacklisted an employee; or

    (2) conspires or contrives by correspondence or any other manner to prevent an employee discharged by a corporation, company, or individual from procuring employment.

    (c) An offense under this section is punishable by:

    (1) a fine of not less than $50 or more than $250;

    (2) imprisonment in jail for not less than 30 days or more than 90 days; or

    (3) both the fine and imprisonment.

    (d) This section may not be held to prohibit a corporation, company, or individual from giving, on application from a discharged employee or a person desiring to employ the employee, a written truthful statement of the reason for the discharge. The written statement may not be used as the cause for a civil or criminal action for libel against the person who furnishes the statement.



    Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 269, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1993.


    Granted, the charges would be almost impossible to prove, and the penalties are not very stiff, but it is an exercise in academics related to the current thread.

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    That's the same info & labor code my ref. has for Tx.
    Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. Leo Buscaglia

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    That means nothing. The people that start the black lists have little respect for the law from the very get-go. The general idea is if it helps their fellow businessmen, it should be allowed. I know of a few industries that have blacklists. And sadly, much of it is word of mouth. It's not hard to exchange info, even if it's incorrect, via word of mouth. John Doe in San Franciso tells Jane Tarzan in Miami that Mothra (insert crime) and fired for it. Mothra applies with Jane's company, and Jane refuses to hire Mothra giving who knows what for an excuse. Sounds simple, right? Well, it is. Then it gets complicated when during a meeting held by the professionals in the respective fields, everybody starts hummin' & chumin', and the talk goes to folks they fired or don't wanna hire. >BAM SHAZAM!< There's your verbal blacklist right there. BTDT got the (really bad word) t-shirt.

    What I'd love to do is find these blacklists and shut them down. What might be a valid reason for John Doe's company in San Francisco could be totally irrelevent to other similar businesses in other locations, and punishing a qualified worker for John Doe hyperactively flapping his gums is just plain wrong.
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    Google "Charles Cullen job reference" and then come back and tell me that companies should not be allowed to exchange information about employees. People DIED because no one would tell prospective employers why Cullen was fired.
    Last edited by cbg; 08-04-2010 at 10:19 AM.
    The above answer, whatever it is, assumes that no legally binding and enforceable contract or CBA says otherwise. If it does, then the terms of the contract or CBA apply.

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    Agree, some states/courts take a dim view of employers who do not disclose certain
    "adverse" information about a former employee that might do great harm to the prospective employer and/or their employees.
    Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. Leo Buscaglia

    Live in peace with animals. Animals bring love to our hearts and warmth to our souls.

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