Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

[Tony Miller]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:45:03 GMT, Jack C Lipton
<cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote:

<Snip>

And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants.

Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June
Cleaver!!!!

And now you're not getting enough "beaver" ))

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

[Jack C Lipton]

Tony Miller wrote:

Jack C Lipton wrote:

Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!!

Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation)
who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of
shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how
a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should")
work.

All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and
"optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued
over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily
Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable
expectations. We never find out how much discomfort
Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether
she preferred missionary or doggie.

In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon
us, as impressionable children, how things "should"
be.

And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to
me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the
best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from
"Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal
marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what
passes for culture in the US.

Talk about driving schizophrenia...

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

[Chrys]

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote in message
news:slrncfvt83.g32.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g...

Tony Miller wrote:

Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia...

What is so wrong about those old shows? You had married couples who loved
each other and were happy. Surely you don't prefer more modern shows like
"Married with Children" where everyone hates everyone else in the
household?

[Kimberlee]

Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.
I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.
The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply
reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence
they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.
~Kimberlee



"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote in message
news:slrncfvt83.g32.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g...

Tony Miller wrote:

Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia... -- Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

[Bill in Co.]

Kimberlee wrote:

Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.

Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that?
(rhetorical Q)

I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.

Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking
realistically.

The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they

simply

reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash. ~Kimberlee

I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum
swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so,
please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote in message news:slrncfvt83.g32.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g...

[urf]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...

Kimberlee wrote:

Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)

Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.

simply

influence

they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the

trash.

~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)

I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote in message news:slrncfvt83.g32.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g...

http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

[Bill in Co.]

urf wrote:

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...

simply

reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive

influence

they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the

trash.

~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.

Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To
Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to
children in the episodes), and stuff like that.

Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children".

If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered
acceptable, I don't know what does.

[Caren]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

urf wrote:

simply

influence

trash.

Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years
ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows
on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter.
Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials
and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap
and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids
was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-)

You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be
done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging
however, it can be done.

"Back in my day" my best friend was the daughter of a multi
millionaire. She had everything on the planet and I was envious all
of the time. My mother constantly told me,"we can't afford that". I
do the same with my kids. The younger one now is on the "but Carly's
mom lets her see that movie." And just like my mom, I say, "and your
mom does not let you see that movie." I also throw in from time to
time, "Carly's mom lets her eat dead cow." That usually shuts her up
:-)

When my son was little, when he misbehaved I'd tell him that I was
going to take him to McDonalds and make him eat there :-))

None of us watch Married with Children, Bill. However, I have no
interest in watching Father Knows Best, unless I have some pot to
smoke :-))

[Caren]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

urf wrote:

simply

influence

trash.

Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years
ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows
on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter.
Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials
and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap
and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids
was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-)

You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be
done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging
however, it can be done.

"Back in my day" my best friend was the daughter of a multi
millionaire. She had everything on the planet and I was envious all
of the time. My mother constantly told me,"we can't afford that". I
do the same with my kids. The younger one now is on the "but Carly's
mom lets her see that movie." And just like my mom, I say, "and your
mom does not let you see that movie." I also throw in from time to
time, "Carly's mom lets her eat dead cow." That usually shuts her up
:-)

When my son was little, when he misbehaved I'd tell him that I was
going to take him to McDonalds and make him eat there :-))

None of us watch Married with Children, Bill. However, I have no
interest in watching Father Knows Best, unless I have some pot to
smoke :-))

[Bill in Co.]

Caren wrote:

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

that?

> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather

than the

trash.

pendulum

> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It

To

Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does. It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter. Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-) You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging however, it can be done.

But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?
(Did you ever stop to think about that)?? It's enough to depress the hell
out of anyone. You (apparently) just calmly accept it - carte blanche?

Well, yeah, everyone apparently does, or it wouldn't be this way, now would
it? So what message is that sending? (rhetorical Q)

[Bill in Co.]

Caren wrote:

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

that?

> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather

than the

trash.

pendulum

> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It

To

Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does. It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter. Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-) You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging however, it can be done.

But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?
(Did you ever stop to think about that)?? It's enough to depress the hell
out of anyone. You (apparently) just calmly accept it - carte blanche?

Well, yeah, everyone apparently does, or it wouldn't be this way, now would
it? So what message is that sending? (rhetorical Q)

[Joy]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a3HMc.14097$Qu5.13612@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...

But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?

The challenges are certainly *different* than they were way back when. For
instance, it is much less of a challenge to keep your kids alive. A lot of
them used to die of things like diarrhea and strep throat.

[Joy]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a3HMc.14097$Qu5.13612@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...

But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?

The challenges are certainly *different* than they were way back when. For
instance, it is much less of a challenge to keep your kids alive. A lot of
them used to die of things like diarrhea and strep throat.

[urf]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...

urf wrote:

that?

(rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply

influence

trash.

pendulum

swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does.

Speaking now of the pendulum, we are only telling each other of our
observations
of the world. Without a doubt in my mind it is in the natural order of
things to have
a balance. That balance can only be had with the to and fro changes that are
represented as the swing of the pendulum.

The sun follows the rain, the yin is brother to the yang, night and day come
to us
always as do the seasons even life and death...... it goes on and on.
Nothing stays the same
and nothing lasts forever. Not even your bad humor.

[urf]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...

urf wrote:

that?

(rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply

influence

trash.

pendulum

swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does.

Speaking now of the pendulum, we are only telling each other of our
observations
of the world. Without a doubt in my mind it is in the natural order of
things to have
a balance. That balance can only be had with the to and fro changes that are
represented as the swing of the pendulum.

The sun follows the rain, the yin is brother to the yang, night and day come
to us
always as do the seasons even life and death...... it goes on and on.
Nothing stays the same
and nothing lasts forever. Not even your bad humor.

[Bill in Co.]

Bill in Co. wrote:

urf wrote:

that?

(rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they

simply

> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive

influence

> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the

trash.

> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the

pendulum

swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does.

Nobody here wants to come out and acknowledge this?? Why is that?
Because if it is true, there is little we can do about it, or is it just
some form of denial? (I'd really like to know).

You know, it really wouldn't be the end of the world to be reflective
sometimes, and admit that we do have some real problems here for society, as
typified by the above.

[Bill in Co.]

Bill in Co. wrote:

urf wrote:

that?

(rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they

simply

> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive

influence

> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the

trash.

> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the

pendulum

swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does.

Nobody here wants to come out and acknowledge this?? Why is that?
Because if it is true, there is little we can do about it, or is it just
some form of denial? (I'd really like to know).

You know, it really wouldn't be the end of the world to be reflective
sometimes, and admit that we do have some real problems here for society, as
typified by the above.

[Caren]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

urf wrote:

simply

influence

trash.

Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

I thought of you today Bill. I took my daughter to her swimming
lessons with an absoulutely adorable friend of hers. We stayed after
the lesson for a few swim sessions and I watched them play and
listened to them talk while pretending to read a book :-) They are
both a few months short of 10 and are still in that cute stage before
the heinous genes kick in.

Well, while my daughter was in her lesson, her friend and I talked. I
rubbed sun block all over her and suddenly she said, "look how fat
that part of my thigh is." If I could tell you how incredibly
muscular she is (which I told her) and how georgous and sweet she is,
I wouldn't do her justice. Her hair is golden, her skin is golden and
she has the cutest dimple in the world. She is very smart and
articulate and polite. And she thinks she is fat. This is the age
when girls start to think this kind of nonsense. And yes, it's the
way society is. However, I will say, when I was a young teenager, I
too thought I was fat (and looking at pictures, I was no where near
fat-it was about confidence.)

You keep talking about how depressing it is, how the world is, how
horrible it all is, how it used to be better. And worse, you keep
talking about how "everyone" made it this way. I take exception to
that comment. As I imagine many others will. Not all of us
contribute to some of the assenine garbage that is going on in the
world. And yes, some of us are actually trying to create change. And
it takes small steps to create change.

Have you ever thought about what you might do to help create this
change or is it easier to sit back and complain about it? Do you
volunteer anywhere? To me, volunteering to help kids is about one of
the most awesome thing that a person can do. There are buddy programs
at almost all schools, there are after school programs. You can
actually make a difference in a child's life. If many people make a
small difference with one child (just like one vote) then perhaps it
can have a positive impact on the future.

I later went to the gym. I was really disturbed by this little girl's
comment and as I was pumping away I had an idea. I walked right over
to the owner of the gym (who is rarely ever there) and asked him if
they ever thought about creating a program for kids around 8,9,10- the
age when they're too old for kindergym and too young to join the gym
and at the age of losing self esteem (especially girls). He was very
enthusiastic about it and said that he'd talk to his partner. I said
that I'd be happy to help anyone who might head a program with a
mental/emotional part for self esteem (for free).

I left the gym feeling like I attempted to make a difference. All of
us have to chip in and do our part, no matter what it is. Our kids
lack self esteem, our kids often lack parents being home, our kids
need "something" and as a society, we need to reach out and help. How
about it Bill?

[Caren]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

urf wrote:

simply

influence

trash.

Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

I thought of you today Bill. I took my daughter to her swimming
lessons with an absoulutely adorable friend of hers. We stayed after
the lesson for a few swim sessions and I watched them play and
listened to them talk while pretending to read a book :-) They are
both a few months short of 10 and are still in that cute stage before
the heinous genes kick in.

Well, while my daughter was in her lesson, her friend and I talked. I
rubbed sun block all over her and suddenly she said, "look how fat
that part of my thigh is." If I could tell you how incredibly
muscular she is (which I told her) and how georgous and sweet she is,
I wouldn't do her justice. Her hair is golden, her skin is golden and
she has the cutest dimple in the world. She is very smart and
articulate and polite. And she thinks she is fat. This is the age
when girls start to think this kind of nonsense. And yes, it's the
way society is. However, I will say, when I was a young teenager, I
too thought I was fat (and looking at pictures, I was no where near
fat-it was about confidence.)

You keep talking about how depressing it is, how the world is, how
horrible it all is, how it used to be better. And worse, you keep
talking about how "everyone" made it this way. I take exception to
that comment. As I imagine many others will. Not all of us
contribute to some of the assenine garbage that is going on in the
world. And yes, some of us are actually trying to create change. And
it takes small steps to create change.

Have you ever thought about what you might do to help create this
change or is it easier to sit back and complain about it? Do you
volunteer anywhere? To me, volunteering to help kids is about one of
the most awesome thing that a person can do. There are buddy programs
at almost all schools, there are after school programs. You can
actually make a difference in a child's life. If many people make a
small difference with one child (just like one vote) then perhaps it
can have a positive impact on the future.

I later went to the gym. I was really disturbed by this little girl's
comment and as I was pumping away I had an idea. I walked right over
to the owner of the gym (who is rarely ever there) and asked him if
they ever thought about creating a program for kids around 8,9,10- the
age when they're too old for kindergym and too young to join the gym
and at the age of losing self esteem (especially girls). He was very
enthusiastic about it and said that he'd talk to his partner. I said
that I'd be happy to help anyone who might head a program with a
mental/emotional part for self esteem (for free).

I left the gym feeling like I attempted to make a difference. All of
us have to chip in and do our part, no matter what it is. Our kids
lack self esteem, our kids often lack parents being home, our kids
need "something" and as a society, we need to reach out and help. How
about it Bill?

[Bill in Co.]

Caren wrote:

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

that?

> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply

influence

trash.

pendulum

> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It

To

Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill. I took my daughter to her swimming lessons with an absoulutely adorable friend of hers. We stayed after the lesson for a few swim sessions and I watched them play and listened to them talk while pretending to read a book :-) They are both a few months short of 10 and are still in that cute stage before the heinous genes kick in. Well, while my daughter was in her lesson, her friend and I talked. I rubbed sun block all over her and suddenly she said, "look how fat that part of my thigh is." If I could tell you how incredibly muscular she is (which I told her) and how georgous and sweet she is, I wouldn't do her justice. Her hair is golden, her skin is golden and she has the cutest dimple in the world. She is very smart and articulate and polite. And she thinks she is fat. This is the age when girls start to think this kind of nonsense. And yes, it's the way society is. However, I will say, when I was a young teenager, I too thought I was fat (and looking at pictures, I was no where near fat-it was about confidence.) You keep talking about how depressing it is, how the world is, how horrible it all is, how it used to be better. And worse, you keep talking about how "everyone" made it this way. I take exception to that comment. As I imagine many others will. Not all of us contribute to some of the assenine garbage that is going on in the world. And yes, some of us are actually trying to create change. And it takes small steps to create change. Have you ever thought about what you might do to help create this change or is it easier to sit back and complain about it? Do you volunteer anywhere? To me, volunteering to help kids is about one of the most awesome thing that a person can do. There are buddy programs at almost all schools, there are after school programs. You can actually make a difference in a child's life. If many people make a small difference with one child (just like one vote) then perhaps it can have a positive impact on the future. I later went to the gym. I was really disturbed by this little girl's comment and as I was pumping away I had an idea. I walked right over to the owner of the gym (who is rarely ever there) and asked him if they ever thought about creating a program for kids around 8,9,10- the age when they're too old for kindergym and too young to join the gym and at the age of losing self esteem (especially girls). He was very enthusiastic about it and said that he'd talk to his partner. I said that I'd be happy to help anyone who might head a program with a mental/emotional part for self esteem (for free). I left the gym feeling like I attempted to make a difference. All of us have to chip in and do our part, no matter what it is. Our kids lack self esteem, our kids often lack parents being home, our kids need "something" and as a society, we need to reach out and help. How about it Bill?

You don't think I reach out to kids? (I'm a bit surprised you would say
that).

[Bill in Co.]

Caren wrote:

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

that?

> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply

influence

trash.

pendulum

> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It

To

Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill. I took my daughter to her swimming lessons with an absoulutely adorable friend of hers. We stayed after the lesson for a few swim sessions and I watched them play and listened to them talk while pretending to read a book :-) They are both a few months short of 10 and are still in that cute stage before the heinous genes kick in. Well, while my daughter was in her lesson, her friend and I talked. I rubbed sun block all over her and suddenly she said, "look how fat that part of my thigh is." If I could tell you how incredibly muscular she is (which I told her) and how georgous and sweet she is, I wouldn't do her justice. Her hair is golden, her skin is golden and she has the cutest dimple in the world. She is very smart and articulate and polite. And she thinks she is fat. This is the age when girls start to think this kind of nonsense. And yes, it's the way society is. However, I will say, when I was a young teenager, I too thought I was fat (and looking at pictures, I was no where near fat-it was about confidence.) You keep talking about how depressing it is, how the world is, how horrible it all is, how it used to be better. And worse, you keep talking about how "everyone" made it this way. I take exception to that comment. As I imagine many others will. Not all of us contribute to some of the assenine garbage that is going on in the world. And yes, some of us are actually trying to create change. And it takes small steps to create change. Have you ever thought about what you might do to help create this change or is it easier to sit back and complain about it? Do you volunteer anywhere? To me, volunteering to help kids is about one of the most awesome thing that a person can do. There are buddy programs at almost all schools, there are after school programs. You can actually make a difference in a child's life. If many people make a small difference with one child (just like one vote) then perhaps it can have a positive impact on the future. I later went to the gym. I was really disturbed by this little girl's comment and as I was pumping away I had an idea. I walked right over to the owner of the gym (who is rarely ever there) and asked him if they ever thought about creating a program for kids around 8,9,10- the age when they're too old for kindergym and too young to join the gym and at the age of losing self esteem (especially girls). He was very enthusiastic about it and said that he'd talk to his partner. I said that I'd be happy to help anyone who might head a program with a mental/emotional part for self esteem (for free). I left the gym feeling like I attempted to make a difference. All of us have to chip in and do our part, no matter what it is. Our kids lack self esteem, our kids often lack parents being home, our kids need "something" and as a society, we need to reach out and help. How about it Bill?

You don't think I reach out to kids? (I'm a bit surprised you would say
that).

[Bill in Co.]

Caren wrote:

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

that?

> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather

than the

>> trash.>> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the

pendulum

> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It

To

Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill.................

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my
question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just
perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

[Bill in Co.]

Caren wrote:

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net>...

that?

> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather

than the

>> trash.>> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the

pendulum

> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It

To

Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is

considered

acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill.................

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my
question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just
perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

[Denise noe]

I started this thread about Ward and June Cleaver and it quickly turned into
"Odd Role Models."
Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father
and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is
"odd" about Ward and June?


****************************
Denise Noe
Koko the Signing Gorilla says: "Fine animal gorilla."

[Denise noe]

I started this thread about Ward and June Cleaver and it quickly turned into
"Odd Role Models."
Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father
and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is
"odd" about Ward and June?


****************************
Denise Noe
Koko the Signing Gorilla says: "Fine animal gorilla."

[Jack C Lipton]

Bill in Co. wrote:

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

I sometimes wonder if the dystopian view from MwC,
Simpsons, etc is triggered by the disappointment
that Ozzie and Harriet, Ward and June, etc, were
so unrealistic? Perhaps many of the "downers" we
see (which might scare people away from the "usual"
relationships) are just an expression of
dissatisfaction by the writers who grew up with
idealistic expectations... which were all wrong?

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

[Jack C Lipton]

Bill in Co. wrote:

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

I sometimes wonder if the dystopian view from MwC,
Simpsons, etc is triggered by the disappointment
that Ozzie and Harriet, Ward and June, etc, were
so unrealistic? Perhaps many of the "downers" we
see (which might scare people away from the "usual"
relationships) are just an expression of
dissatisfaction by the writers who grew up with
idealistic expectations... which were all wrong?

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

[Caren]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net>...

Caren wrote:

that?

than the

pendulum

so,

To

considered

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong
instead of what is right.

[Caren]

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net>...

Caren wrote:

that?

than the

pendulum

so,

To

considered

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong
instead of what is right.

[Bill in Co.]

Caren wrote:

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net>...

Speaking

>>> realistically.>>>>>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>>>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a

positive

>>>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather>>>> than the trash.>>>> ~Kimberlee>>>>>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the

pendulum

>>> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If

so,

>>> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)>>>>>> I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.>> Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It> To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to> children in the episodes), and stuff like that.>> Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children".>> If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps,

just

perhaps, because the answer is self evident. What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong instead of what is right.

And some people (I'm not saying you) choose to ignore what has happened, or
are in denial of it, because that would be too hard for them to accept, and
it's a lot easier/safer/happier not thinking or worrying or even caring
about it. Hey, at least I have gone out and done something about it for
kids in various club activities, but that doesn't really change my outlook
for where we're really going as a society.