Stressed

[shinypenny]

Boyce <Boyce@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message news:<slrnc6e5ei.roa.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net>...

She cannot promise that it won't happen again because a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don't particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless.

But even if you no longer love that person, can't you be committed to
them in the sense that you wouldn't do something that has the
potential to hurt them greatly?

If you're committed to an idea then you have less investment in the emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people.

Actually, I can understand her concern there. My ex was much more
committed to the institution of marriage, than to me. It allowed him
to get very lazy in the relationship. He just assumed it didn't matter
if he neglected our relationship, because we were committed to the
long haul.

I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for another post. It was something she expressed an interest in at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it.

What I am reading into your words is that neither you and your wife
want to make or agree to an ultimatum. Makes sense to me, particularly
given the fact that she's already cheated and you've already taken her
back once. I'm sensing that if she cheated again, you're not
completely confident that would be the end of it for you. You can
possibly see yourself forgiving her again; she can probably see
herself asking for your forgiveness again. That's the interesting
thing about personal boundaries - it's easy to say "I'd dump you if
you ever cheat on me again" - but we never really know how we're going
to react UNTIL that boundary is crossed.

You asked not about dealing with the past, but how to handle the
future. I can see how, without an ultimatum, you may feel it hard to
relax. Yet with an ultimatum, you might live in constant fear you'll
have to follow up on your promise. It's like waiting for the other
shoe to drop, no?

How about negotiating this agreement with your wife. If she ever falls
out of love with you again and contemplates sleeping with someone
else, that is fine with you *PROVIDED* she tell you first - before she
does so. This would give you a chance to be able to 1) determine if
you've been neglecting her and if there's anything you can personally
do to restore her love for her; 2) decide whether you want to let her
sleep with someone else, and if not, let her go.

She can feel free to sleep with others if your marriage ever gets that
bad again, yet she must treat you with the respect and dignity you
deserve, by warning you first and giving you the option to fix things,
or leave the relationship with your own dignity intact.

jen

[Seeker]

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403291134.562b1a54@posting.google.c om...

How about negotiating this agreement with your wife. If she ever falls out of love with you again and contemplates sleeping with someone else, that is fine with you *PROVIDED* she tell you first - before she does so. This would give you a chance to be able to 1) determine if you've been neglecting her and if there's anything you can personally do to restore her love for her; 2) decide whether you want to let her sleep with someone else, and if not, let her go.

Why do you place any burden on him to determine if he's been neglecting her,
that it might be his job to restore her love for him?

She can feel free to sleep with others if your marriage ever gets that bad again, yet she must treat you with the respect and dignity you deserve, by warning you first and giving you the option to fix things, or leave the relationship with your own dignity intact.

Hmmm... why does her desire to go out and sleep with someone else imply
*he* has to fix something?

(My questions of course have a not very hidden motive to them!)

Ted

[Seeker]

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403291134.562b1a54@posting.google.c om...

How about negotiating this agreement with your wife. If she ever falls out of love with you again and contemplates sleeping with someone else, that is fine with you *PROVIDED* she tell you first - before she does so. This would give you a chance to be able to 1) determine if you've been neglecting her and if there's anything you can personally do to restore her love for her; 2) decide whether you want to let her sleep with someone else, and if not, let her go.

Why do you place any burden on him to determine if he's been neglecting her,
that it might be his job to restore her love for him?

She can feel free to sleep with others if your marriage ever gets that bad again, yet she must treat you with the respect and dignity you deserve, by warning you first and giving you the option to fix things, or leave the relationship with your own dignity intact.

Hmmm... why does her desire to go out and sleep with someone else imply
*he* has to fix something?

(My questions of course have a not very hidden motive to them!)

Ted

[shinypenny]

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c49vlq$2fu4dv$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>...

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0403291134.562b1a54@posting.google.c om...

Why do you place any burden on him to determine if he's been neglecting her, that it might be his job to restore her love for him?

Because, as he's described his wife, she has a fear that "commitment"
means laziness. Because the way I'm reading her previous cheating
episode is that she did so as a wake-up call to her husband. For all
we know, she was expressing misery all along but her husband did
nothing to address it, until she cheated. It doesn't seem to me that
she had had "enough" and was sick and tired of trying to get his
attention - otherwise, she would have divorced him long before going
into the arms of another man (his *cousin,* no less ! Talk about a cry
for help, a ploy to deliberately kick her husband in the balls).

I suspect that's why she's reserving the right to cheat again, and yet
has constructed things in such a way as it won't necessarily be a deal
breaker. She doesn't want to lose her husband. Just wants to shake him
up and get his attention, if he ever lets his commitment to their
marriage make him get lazy again. And it sure sounds like her previous
cheating episode worked quite well and got her what she wanted. Why
should she give up that tactic in the future?

And therefore, should he choose to stay married under her conditions,
then it would be his obligation to do the work and address her issues
if it gets to that point again. He, OTOH, gets the right to know
*before* she actually cheats that she has gotten that unhappy again.

Of course, it would be ideal if both could have a relationship in
which she felt free to speak up and be heard, and he would hear her.
None of this stupid, hurtful game playing.

She can feel free to sleep with others if your marriage ever gets that bad again, yet she must treat you with the respect and dignity you deserve, by warning you first and giving you the option to fix things, or leave the relationship with your own dignity intact. Hmmm... why does her desire to go out and sleep with someone else imply *he* has to fix something? (My questions of course have a not very hidden motive to them!)

Because it's a cry for attention. A deceitful, harmful, pretty lousy
cry for attention. Surely you understand the thought process his wife
is going through here, don't you, Ted? Haven't you considered it
yourself?

No where does it indicate the wife cheated because she was plain
horny. Actually, come to think of it, maybe the OP should consent to
an open marriage. It would defuse this whole tactic of hers.

jen

[shinypenny]

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c49vlq$2fu4dv$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>...

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0403291134.562b1a54@posting.google.c om...

Why do you place any burden on him to determine if he's been neglecting her, that it might be his job to restore her love for him?

Because, as he's described his wife, she has a fear that "commitment"
means laziness. Because the way I'm reading her previous cheating
episode is that she did so as a wake-up call to her husband. For all
we know, she was expressing misery all along but her husband did
nothing to address it, until she cheated. It doesn't seem to me that
she had had "enough" and was sick and tired of trying to get his
attention - otherwise, she would have divorced him long before going
into the arms of another man (his *cousin,* no less ! Talk about a cry
for help, a ploy to deliberately kick her husband in the balls).

I suspect that's why she's reserving the right to cheat again, and yet
has constructed things in such a way as it won't necessarily be a deal
breaker. She doesn't want to lose her husband. Just wants to shake him
up and get his attention, if he ever lets his commitment to their
marriage make him get lazy again. And it sure sounds like her previous
cheating episode worked quite well and got her what she wanted. Why
should she give up that tactic in the future?

And therefore, should he choose to stay married under her conditions,
then it would be his obligation to do the work and address her issues
if it gets to that point again. He, OTOH, gets the right to know
*before* she actually cheats that she has gotten that unhappy again.

Of course, it would be ideal if both could have a relationship in
which she felt free to speak up and be heard, and he would hear her.
None of this stupid, hurtful game playing.

She can feel free to sleep with others if your marriage ever gets that bad again, yet she must treat you with the respect and dignity you deserve, by warning you first and giving you the option to fix things, or leave the relationship with your own dignity intact. Hmmm... why does her desire to go out and sleep with someone else imply *he* has to fix something? (My questions of course have a not very hidden motive to them!)

Because it's a cry for attention. A deceitful, harmful, pretty lousy
cry for attention. Surely you understand the thought process his wife
is going through here, don't you, Ted? Haven't you considered it
yourself?

No where does it indicate the wife cheated because she was plain
horny. Actually, come to think of it, maybe the OP should consent to
an open marriage. It would defuse this whole tactic of hers.

jen

[Seeker]

In article <c8cb5319.0403301054.10b8098b@posting.google.com >,
shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:

Because it's a cry for attention. A deceitful, harmful, pretty lousy cry for attention. Surely you understand the thought process his wife is going through here, don't you, Ted? Haven't you considered it yourself?

Not really. I guess my mind doesn't work that way. Yes, I've admitted
several times considering cheating -- but not in order to send a
message, as a cry (to my wife) for attention. I sent that message loud
and clear when I asked her to come to counselling. And (referring to
the next paragraph) I'd do it not strictly because I'm horny, although
that's part of it. It's simpler than that -- I'm so damn lonely and
starved for affection and emotional contact that I can easily see
myself finding it where I can. Am I likely to actually take serious
steps to initiate such a thing? Probably not. But I can easily see
myself keeping the possibility alive and were someone else to respond
in the slightest -- or initiate something herself -- I cannot predict
how I'd respond. Nah, to be honest, I know damn well how I'd respond.


(I'm not in a good mood tonight -- this morning started on a sour note
and the counselling session today went almost nowhere and I didn't even
care enough to try to break something lose. I'm also fearful that
within a few days I'm not going to be able to find any more things for
the "positive thoughts" list. Also, I went to the Mel Gibson movie
last Friday with a good friend from church, whom I don't think I've
mentioned here, since my wife didn't want to go and her husband didn't
either. Do you want to know what I remember from the evening? Peter's
denial, the first nail, and the moment my friend and I silently held
each other out in the lobby afterwards. Something is very wrong about
that last part.)

Ted

[Seeker]

In article <c8cb5319.0403301054.10b8098b@posting.google.com >,
shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:

Because it's a cry for attention. A deceitful, harmful, pretty lousy cry for attention. Surely you understand the thought process his wife is going through here, don't you, Ted? Haven't you considered it yourself?

Not really. I guess my mind doesn't work that way. Yes, I've admitted
several times considering cheating -- but not in order to send a
message, as a cry (to my wife) for attention. I sent that message loud
and clear when I asked her to come to counselling. And (referring to
the next paragraph) I'd do it not strictly because I'm horny, although
that's part of it. It's simpler than that -- I'm so damn lonely and
starved for affection and emotional contact that I can easily see
myself finding it where I can. Am I likely to actually take serious
steps to initiate such a thing? Probably not. But I can easily see
myself keeping the possibility alive and were someone else to respond
in the slightest -- or initiate something herself -- I cannot predict
how I'd respond. Nah, to be honest, I know damn well how I'd respond.


(I'm not in a good mood tonight -- this morning started on a sour note
and the counselling session today went almost nowhere and I didn't even
care enough to try to break something lose. I'm also fearful that
within a few days I'm not going to be able to find any more things for
the "positive thoughts" list. Also, I went to the Mel Gibson movie
last Friday with a good friend from church, whom I don't think I've
mentioned here, since my wife didn't want to go and her husband didn't
either. Do you want to know what I remember from the evening? Peter's
denial, the first nail, and the moment my friend and I silently held
each other out in the lobby afterwards. Something is very wrong about
that last part.)

Ted

[Whisper]

I am going to speak from experience here...


I was in a marriage that I was very lonely.. even with him sleeping next to
me.. I would cry myself to sleep.. because I felt so alone, unloved, and
undesired.. I did go outside of my marriage to find what was missing.. you
know what.. I found it.. TEMPORARILY.. but then I had to go back to
Reality..and it hurt even more so.. I was even lonelier, because I then knew
what it felt like to be "wanted" and not lonely....to be touched, caressed,,
etc.. all the things my then husband no longer did.

Something to think about...


Kass

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:300320042330466359%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com...

In article <c8cb5319.0403301054.10b8098b@posting.google.com >, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:

Not really. I guess my mind doesn't work that way. Yes, I've admitted several times considering cheating -- but not in order to send a message, as a cry (to my wife) for attention. I sent that message loud and clear when I asked her to come to counselling. And (referring to the next paragraph) I'd do it not strictly because I'm horny, although that's part of it. It's simpler than that -- I'm so damn lonely and starved for affection and emotional contact that I can easily see myself finding it where I can. Am I likely to actually take serious steps to initiate such a thing? Probably not. But I can easily see myself keeping the possibility alive and were someone else to respond in the slightest -- or initiate something herself -- I cannot predict how I'd respond. Nah, to be honest, I know damn well how I'd respond. (I'm not in a good mood tonight -- this morning started on a sour note and the counselling session today went almost nowhere and I didn't even care enough to try to break something lose. I'm also fearful that within a few days I'm not going to be able to find any more things for the "positive thoughts" list. Also, I went to the Mel Gibson movie last Friday with a good friend from church, whom I don't think I've mentioned here, since my wife didn't want to go and her husband didn't either. Do you want to know what I remember from the evening? Peter's denial, the first nail, and the moment my friend and I silently held each other out in the lobby afterwards. Something is very wrong about that last part.) Ted

[Whisper]

I am going to speak from experience here...


I was in a marriage that I was very lonely.. even with him sleeping next to
me.. I would cry myself to sleep.. because I felt so alone, unloved, and
undesired.. I did go outside of my marriage to find what was missing.. you
know what.. I found it.. TEMPORARILY.. but then I had to go back to
Reality..and it hurt even more so.. I was even lonelier, because I then knew
what it felt like to be "wanted" and not lonely....to be touched, caressed,,
etc.. all the things my then husband no longer did.

Something to think about...


Kass

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:300320042330466359%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com...

In article <c8cb5319.0403301054.10b8098b@posting.google.com >, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:

Not really. I guess my mind doesn't work that way. Yes, I've admitted several times considering cheating -- but not in order to send a message, as a cry (to my wife) for attention. I sent that message loud and clear when I asked her to come to counselling. And (referring to the next paragraph) I'd do it not strictly because I'm horny, although that's part of it. It's simpler than that -- I'm so damn lonely and starved for affection and emotional contact that I can easily see myself finding it where I can. Am I likely to actually take serious steps to initiate such a thing? Probably not. But I can easily see myself keeping the possibility alive and were someone else to respond in the slightest -- or initiate something herself -- I cannot predict how I'd respond. Nah, to be honest, I know damn well how I'd respond. (I'm not in a good mood tonight -- this morning started on a sour note and the counselling session today went almost nowhere and I didn't even care enough to try to break something lose. I'm also fearful that within a few days I'm not going to be able to find any more things for the "positive thoughts" list. Also, I went to the Mel Gibson movie last Friday with a good friend from church, whom I don't think I've mentioned here, since my wife didn't want to go and her husband didn't either. Do you want to know what I remember from the evening? Peter's denial, the first nail, and the moment my friend and I silently held each other out in the lobby afterwards. Something is very wrong about that last part.) Ted

[Seeker]

"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> wrote in message
news:SOsac.2021$WC3.18279@ord-read.news.verio.net...

I am going to speak from experience here... I was in a marriage that I was very lonely.. even with him sleeping next

to

me.. I would cry myself to sleep.. because I felt so alone, unloved, and undesired.. I did go outside of my marriage to find what was missing.. you know what.. I found it.. TEMPORARILY.. but then I had to go back to Reality..and it hurt even more so.. I was even lonelier, because I then

knew

what it felt like to be "wanted" and not lonely....to be touched,

caressed,,

etc.. all the things my then husband no longer did. Something to think about...

I think about it a lot Kass. Partly because while I haven't yet crossed
the boundary of finding all that's missing, I *have* found part of it (or
feel like I have.) While it's been awhile, I cry myself to sleep to.
What I didn't include in my lament yesterday -- and maybe this was more what
I was reacting to than anything -- was that since I was out in the evening
already I stopped by the pharmacy for a couple of barely legitimate reasons,
but mostly just to see "the pharmacist." Except for maybe a minute last
week when I actually had to buy something we haven't communicated in over a
month. She'd seen the movie and we talked about that -- she'd gone with
the husband of her best friend. It was so intense for him he had to reach
over and hold her hand. I wanted to have done that with the friend I went
to the movie with -- I wanted to have gone with "the pharmacist" instead and
done so with her -- I wanted to be able to let either one of them lean over
and cry on my shoulder. She came out from behind the counter to carry the
cash register drawer to the front of the store so I "escorted" her. While
we were walking she said that the other members of her choir had asked where
I and my wife had been at their last concert -- they'd missed us. (We've
attended several of them by now.) I laughed and reached out and touched her
shoulder. It was almost electric for me. Fantasy projection? Sure -- but
an awful lot of reality too.

Ted

[Seeker]

"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> wrote in message
news:SOsac.2021$WC3.18279@ord-read.news.verio.net...

I am going to speak from experience here... I was in a marriage that I was very lonely.. even with him sleeping next

to

me.. I would cry myself to sleep.. because I felt so alone, unloved, and undesired.. I did go outside of my marriage to find what was missing.. you know what.. I found it.. TEMPORARILY.. but then I had to go back to Reality..and it hurt even more so.. I was even lonelier, because I then

knew

what it felt like to be "wanted" and not lonely....to be touched,

caressed,,

etc.. all the things my then husband no longer did. Something to think about...

I think about it a lot Kass. Partly because while I haven't yet crossed
the boundary of finding all that's missing, I *have* found part of it (or
feel like I have.) While it's been awhile, I cry myself to sleep to.
What I didn't include in my lament yesterday -- and maybe this was more what
I was reacting to than anything -- was that since I was out in the evening
already I stopped by the pharmacy for a couple of barely legitimate reasons,
but mostly just to see "the pharmacist." Except for maybe a minute last
week when I actually had to buy something we haven't communicated in over a
month. She'd seen the movie and we talked about that -- she'd gone with
the husband of her best friend. It was so intense for him he had to reach
over and hold her hand. I wanted to have done that with the friend I went
to the movie with -- I wanted to have gone with "the pharmacist" instead and
done so with her -- I wanted to be able to let either one of them lean over
and cry on my shoulder. She came out from behind the counter to carry the
cash register drawer to the front of the store so I "escorted" her. While
we were walking she said that the other members of her choir had asked where
I and my wife had been at their last concert -- they'd missed us. (We've
attended several of them by now.) I laughed and reached out and touched her
shoulder. It was almost electric for me. Fantasy projection? Sure -- but
an awful lot of reality too.

Ted

[shinypenny]

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<300320042330466359%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>...

In article <c8cb5319.0403301054.10b8098b@posting.google.com >, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:

Not really. I guess my mind doesn't work that way. Yes, I've admitted several times considering cheating -- but not in order to send a message, as a cry (to my wife) for attention. I sent that message loud and clear when I asked her to come to counselling. And (referring to the next paragraph) I'd do it not strictly because I'm horny, although that's part of it. It's simpler than that -- I'm so damn lonely and starved for affection and emotional contact that I can easily see myself finding it where I can. Am I likely to actually take serious steps to initiate such a thing? Probably not. But I can easily see myself keeping the possibility alive and were someone else to respond in the slightest -- or initiate something herself -- I cannot predict how I'd respond. Nah, to be honest, I know damn well how I'd respond.

I find it interesting that it never occurs to you to leave your wife
first. If you'd cheat with no intention of leaving, why wouldn't that
possibly be a cry for her attention?

If you cheated, and your wife found out, what then? Let's say after
the initial shock she would forgive you. Would you use that as a way
to finally tell her how miserable you are, and see if you can work
together to improve your relationship?

The way I look at it, there are three basic reasons people cheat. 1)
They have no intention of leaving their partner, but they like variety
and excitement of outside relationships; 2) They are so miserable, if
their partner finds out and dumps them, then they will finally be free
- without having to be the one to end the relationship. and 3) They
have no intention of leaving their partner, but they are miserable and
having another relationship will help fill in the missing pieces and
help them muddle through their misery. If partner finds out, it ends
up being a wake-up call that forces the issues to no longer be
ignored. I.e., a cry for attention. Doesn't have to be a deliberate
one, but that ends up being the overall effect.

jen

[shinypenny]

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<300320042330466359%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>...

In article <c8cb5319.0403301054.10b8098b@posting.google.com >, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:

Not really. I guess my mind doesn't work that way. Yes, I've admitted several times considering cheating -- but not in order to send a message, as a cry (to my wife) for attention. I sent that message loud and clear when I asked her to come to counselling. And (referring to the next paragraph) I'd do it not strictly because I'm horny, although that's part of it. It's simpler than that -- I'm so damn lonely and starved for affection and emotional contact that I can easily see myself finding it where I can. Am I likely to actually take serious steps to initiate such a thing? Probably not. But I can easily see myself keeping the possibility alive and were someone else to respond in the slightest -- or initiate something herself -- I cannot predict how I'd respond. Nah, to be honest, I know damn well how I'd respond.

I find it interesting that it never occurs to you to leave your wife
first. If you'd cheat with no intention of leaving, why wouldn't that
possibly be a cry for her attention?

If you cheated, and your wife found out, what then? Let's say after
the initial shock she would forgive you. Would you use that as a way
to finally tell her how miserable you are, and see if you can work
together to improve your relationship?

The way I look at it, there are three basic reasons people cheat. 1)
They have no intention of leaving their partner, but they like variety
and excitement of outside relationships; 2) They are so miserable, if
their partner finds out and dumps them, then they will finally be free
- without having to be the one to end the relationship. and 3) They
have no intention of leaving their partner, but they are miserable and
having another relationship will help fill in the missing pieces and
help them muddle through their misery. If partner finds out, it ends
up being a wake-up call that forces the issues to no longer be
ignored. I.e., a cry for attention. Doesn't have to be a deliberate
one, but that ends up being the overall effect.

jen

[Seeker]

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403311006.5d439b84@posting.google.c om...

I find it interesting that it never occurs to you to leave your wife first. If you'd cheat with no intention of leaving, why wouldn't that possibly be a cry for her attention? If you cheated, and your wife found out, what then? Let's say after the initial shock she would forgive you. Would you use that as a way to finally tell her how miserable you are, and see if you can work together to improve your relationship? The way I look at it, there are three basic reasons people cheat. 1) They have no intention of leaving their partner, but they like variety and excitement of outside relationships; 2) They are so miserable, if their partner finds out and dumps them, then they will finally be free - without having to be the one to end the relationship. and 3) They have no intention of leaving their partner, but they are miserable and having another relationship will help fill in the missing pieces and help them muddle through their misery. If partner finds out, it ends up being a wake-up call that forces the issues to no longer be ignored. I.e., a cry for attention. Doesn't have to be a deliberate one, but that ends up being the overall effect.

Jen, I sincerely don't know. Maybe the reason I'm only pursuing it
half-heartedly,
if what I'm doing could be considered that at all, is because I don't think
it'd make a difference -- that it *wouldn't* serve as a wake-up call. She
has latched on to the fact that my personality has changed (it came up again
yesterday) -- and so why is it her problem? Why does she have to work on
anything? (no, that's not what she said -- but it sure felt like it.) She
acknowledged (by not questioning it) all the talk about differing love
languages -- how one person needs to be treated to feel loved is not what
the other one needs, and that "do unto others as you would have them do unto
you" is not the right answer in a marriage. Yes, I think she even smiled at
that. But she didn't ask (nor did I, I admit) "what can I do?" But when
I'm with any of my lady friends and the thought of pushing past a boundary
enters my mind I assure you the thought "that'll make my wife wake up and
pay attention" is the farthest from my mind.

Were she to catch me in bed with another woman what would she do? I don't
know. Would she forgive me? There is a good chance she wouldn't.

Ted

[Seeker]

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403311006.5d439b84@posting.google.c om...

I find it interesting that it never occurs to you to leave your wife first. If you'd cheat with no intention of leaving, why wouldn't that possibly be a cry for her attention? If you cheated, and your wife found out, what then? Let's say after the initial shock she would forgive you. Would you use that as a way to finally tell her how miserable you are, and see if you can work together to improve your relationship? The way I look at it, there are three basic reasons people cheat. 1) They have no intention of leaving their partner, but they like variety and excitement of outside relationships; 2) They are so miserable, if their partner finds out and dumps them, then they will finally be free - without having to be the one to end the relationship. and 3) They have no intention of leaving their partner, but they are miserable and having another relationship will help fill in the missing pieces and help them muddle through their misery. If partner finds out, it ends up being a wake-up call that forces the issues to no longer be ignored. I.e., a cry for attention. Doesn't have to be a deliberate one, but that ends up being the overall effect.

Jen, I sincerely don't know. Maybe the reason I'm only pursuing it
half-heartedly,
if what I'm doing could be considered that at all, is because I don't think
it'd make a difference -- that it *wouldn't* serve as a wake-up call. She
has latched on to the fact that my personality has changed (it came up again
yesterday) -- and so why is it her problem? Why does she have to work on
anything? (no, that's not what she said -- but it sure felt like it.) She
acknowledged (by not questioning it) all the talk about differing love
languages -- how one person needs to be treated to feel loved is not what
the other one needs, and that "do unto others as you would have them do unto
you" is not the right answer in a marriage. Yes, I think she even smiled at
that. But she didn't ask (nor did I, I admit) "what can I do?" But when
I'm with any of my lady friends and the thought of pushing past a boundary
enters my mind I assure you the thought "that'll make my wife wake up and
pay attention" is the farthest from my mind.

Were she to catch me in bed with another woman what would she do? I don't
know. Would she forgive me? There is a good chance she wouldn't.

Ted

[Whisper]

Can you find that same feeling IN your marriage with your Wife? That is
what I wanted more than anything in the world..was to feel that way about my
husband (which I did ..but he didn't) ( now my X) and have him return it to
me..


I didn't break down and look for it else where. until I had exhausted
everything in me to find it WITH my husband...

Kass




"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c4eq2h$2hf4d2$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de...

"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> wrote in message news:SOsac.2021$WC3.18279@ord-read.news.verio.net...

to

you

know what.. I found it.. TEMPORARILY.. but then I had to go back to Reality..and it hurt even more so.. I was even lonelier, because I then knew

caressed,,

I think about it a lot Kass. Partly because while I haven't yet crossed the boundary of finding all that's missing, I *have* found part of it (or feel like I have.) While it's been awhile, I cry myself to sleep to. What I didn't include in my lament yesterday -- and maybe this was more

what

I was reacting to than anything -- was that since I was out in the evening already I stopped by the pharmacy for a couple of barely legitimate

reasons,

but mostly just to see "the pharmacist." Except for maybe a minute last week when I actually had to buy something we haven't communicated in over

a

month. She'd seen the movie and we talked about that -- she'd gone with the husband of her best friend. It was so intense for him he had to

reach

over and hold her hand. I wanted to have done that with the friend I went to the movie with -- I wanted to have gone with "the pharmacist" instead

and

done so with her -- I wanted to be able to let either one of them lean

over

and cry on my shoulder. She came out from behind the counter to carry the cash register drawer to the front of the store so I "escorted" her. While we were walking she said that the other members of her choir had asked

where

I and my wife had been at their last concert -- they'd missed us. (We've attended several of them by now.) I laughed and reached out and touched

her

shoulder. It was almost electric for me. Fantasy projection? Sure --

but

an awful lot of reality too. Ted

[Whisper]

Can you find that same feeling IN your marriage with your Wife? That is
what I wanted more than anything in the world..was to feel that way about my
husband (which I did ..but he didn't) ( now my X) and have him return it to
me..


I didn't break down and look for it else where. until I had exhausted
everything in me to find it WITH my husband...

Kass




"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c4eq2h$2hf4d2$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de...

"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> wrote in message news:SOsac.2021$WC3.18279@ord-read.news.verio.net...

to

you

know what.. I found it.. TEMPORARILY.. but then I had to go back to Reality..and it hurt even more so.. I was even lonelier, because I then knew

caressed,,

I think about it a lot Kass. Partly because while I haven't yet crossed the boundary of finding all that's missing, I *have* found part of it (or feel like I have.) While it's been awhile, I cry myself to sleep to. What I didn't include in my lament yesterday -- and maybe this was more

what

I was reacting to than anything -- was that since I was out in the evening already I stopped by the pharmacy for a couple of barely legitimate

reasons,

but mostly just to see "the pharmacist." Except for maybe a minute last week when I actually had to buy something we haven't communicated in over

a

month. She'd seen the movie and we talked about that -- she'd gone with the husband of her best friend. It was so intense for him he had to

reach

over and hold her hand. I wanted to have done that with the friend I went to the movie with -- I wanted to have gone with "the pharmacist" instead

and

done so with her -- I wanted to be able to let either one of them lean

over

and cry on my shoulder. She came out from behind the counter to carry the cash register drawer to the front of the store so I "escorted" her. While we were walking she said that the other members of her choir had asked

where

I and my wife had been at their last concert -- they'd missed us. (We've attended several of them by now.) I laughed and reached out and touched

her

shoulder. It was almost electric for me. Fantasy projection? Sure --

but

an awful lot of reality too. Ted

[Seeker]

"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> wrote in message
news:AgMac.2035$WC3.18226@ord-read.news.verio.net...

Can you find that same feeling IN your marriage with your Wife? That is what I wanted more than anything in the world..was to feel that way about

my

husband (which I did ..but he didn't) ( now my X) and have him return it

to

me..

I don't know Kass. There have been moments when it's been there -- but it
doesn't *feel* like it is reciprocal. She says the highlight of her day is
when I come home -- but it sure doesn't feel like it. When I wrote about
that brief moment with "the pharmacist" I tried to reconstruct a little of
the whole thought-picture: she just seems so open, and soft and inviting
naturally, that I just wanted to melt into her, and her into me, and felt as
if there would be no barriers to doing so. Ihave similarly had moments
when I have wanted to melt into my wife and her into me -- but it seems like
she's as hard as steel and there's nothing to melt into. (I'm not talking
physically, of course -- my wife is actually "softer" than "the pharmacist"
in that way.)

I didn't break down and look for it else where. until I had exhausted everything in me to find it WITH my husband...

Would you mind listing a few of things you did try?

Ted

[Seeker]

"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> wrote in message
news:AgMac.2035$WC3.18226@ord-read.news.verio.net...

Can you find that same feeling IN your marriage with your Wife? That is what I wanted more than anything in the world..was to feel that way about

my

husband (which I did ..but he didn't) ( now my X) and have him return it

to

me..

I don't know Kass. There have been moments when it's been there -- but it
doesn't *feel* like it is reciprocal. She says the highlight of her day is
when I come home -- but it sure doesn't feel like it. When I wrote about
that brief moment with "the pharmacist" I tried to reconstruct a little of
the whole thought-picture: she just seems so open, and soft and inviting
naturally, that I just wanted to melt into her, and her into me, and felt as
if there would be no barriers to doing so. Ihave similarly had moments
when I have wanted to melt into my wife and her into me -- but it seems like
she's as hard as steel and there's nothing to melt into. (I'm not talking
physically, of course -- my wife is actually "softer" than "the pharmacist"
in that way.)

I didn't break down and look for it else where. until I had exhausted everything in me to find it WITH my husband...

Would you mind listing a few of things you did try?

Ted

[Whisper]

Well we tried counseling..he decided it wasn't working.. (and it wasn't.. I
would try doing and being the way he said he wanted .. and it still wasn't
enough)


I am not sure they are things I can actually list.. I just know in my
heart.. I did everything in my power to make it work..

I changed my behavior to fit HIS requirements.. I tried the "have dinner on
the table meet him at the door" philosophy (my mothers idea).. I finally
change myself, started doing thigns for me, to make myself happy, I stopped
worry about if/when he was coming home..and jsut started living life wiht
out him.(like going out to dinner with the kids.. etc.. if he didnt come..
oh well. his loss). My change in behavior.. COULD have sparked a change in
him. but it didnt..he remained the same.. well I guess he did change in some
degreee he actually got physically abusive towards the end..didnt actually
hit me ,,but pinned me against the wall and on the floor teeling me how he
had fantisized about hitting me all day.

I think the best thign you can do is to be open and honest with her.. about
what you need/want from a relationship...dont try to change her...but change
yourself into the person that YOU want to be. Try treating her the way you
want her to treat you. She may or may not change..you have no control over
that.. waht you do have control over is what you can live with.


I finally knew it was over one day.(seems like such a minute thing but it
was a HUGE awakening). when I asked him to pick up some food on the way
home.aroudn 4pm.. and he didnt show up until 3AM....that was the same crap I
had dealt with off and on for 14 years..I knew then.. taht he wasnt going to
change.

Listen to your heart, your soul, your intution....you already know what you
need to do..it is jsut a matter of doing it.


Good luck

Kass

[Whisper]

Well we tried counseling..he decided it wasn't working.. (and it wasn't.. I
would try doing and being the way he said he wanted .. and it still wasn't
enough)


I am not sure they are things I can actually list.. I just know in my
heart.. I did everything in my power to make it work..

I changed my behavior to fit HIS requirements.. I tried the "have dinner on
the table meet him at the door" philosophy (my mothers idea).. I finally
change myself, started doing thigns for me, to make myself happy, I stopped
worry about if/when he was coming home..and jsut started living life wiht
out him.(like going out to dinner with the kids.. etc.. if he didnt come..
oh well. his loss). My change in behavior.. COULD have sparked a change in
him. but it didnt..he remained the same.. well I guess he did change in some
degreee he actually got physically abusive towards the end..didnt actually
hit me ,,but pinned me against the wall and on the floor teeling me how he
had fantisized about hitting me all day.

I think the best thign you can do is to be open and honest with her.. about
what you need/want from a relationship...dont try to change her...but change
yourself into the person that YOU want to be. Try treating her the way you
want her to treat you. She may or may not change..you have no control over
that.. waht you do have control over is what you can live with.


I finally knew it was over one day.(seems like such a minute thing but it
was a HUGE awakening). when I asked him to pick up some food on the way
home.aroudn 4pm.. and he didnt show up until 3AM....that was the same crap I
had dealt with off and on for 14 years..I knew then.. taht he wasnt going to
change.

Listen to your heart, your soul, your intution....you already know what you
need to do..it is jsut a matter of doing it.


Good luck

Kass

[Whisper]

ugh spell check..lol didn't work ..sorry about the typos

Kass
"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> wrote in message
news:AQ0bc.2042$WC3.18250@ord-read.news.verio.net...

Well we tried counseling..he decided it wasn't working.. (and it wasn't..

I

would try doing and being the way he said he wanted .. and it still wasn't enough) I am not sure they are things I can actually list.. I just know in my heart.. I did everything in my power to make it work.. I changed my behavior to fit HIS requirements.. I tried the "have dinner

on

the table meet him at the door" philosophy (my mothers idea).. I finally change myself, started doing thigns for me, to make myself happy, I

stopped

worry about if/when he was coming home..and jsut started living life wiht out him.(like going out to dinner with the kids.. etc.. if he didnt come.. oh well. his loss). My change in behavior.. COULD have sparked a change

in

him. but it didnt..he remained the same.. well I guess he did change in

some

degreee he actually got physically abusive towards the end..didnt actually hit me ,,but pinned me against the wall and on the floor teeling me how he had fantisized about hitting me all day. I think the best thign you can do is to be open and honest with her..

about

what you need/want from a relationship...dont try to change her...but

change

yourself into the person that YOU want to be. Try treating her the way you want her to treat you. She may or may not change..you have no control over that.. waht you do have control over is what you can live with. I finally knew it was over one day.(seems like such a minute thing but it was a HUGE awakening). when I asked him to pick up some food on the way home.aroudn 4pm.. and he didnt show up until 3AM....that was the same crap

I

had dealt with off and on for 14 years..I knew then.. taht he wasnt going

to

change. Listen to your heart, your soul, your intution....you already know what

you

need to do..it is jsut a matter of doing it. Good luck Kass

[Whisper]

ugh spell check..lol didn't work ..sorry about the typos

Kass
"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> wrote in message
news:AQ0bc.2042$WC3.18250@ord-read.news.verio.net...

Well we tried counseling..he decided it wasn't working.. (and it wasn't..

I

would try doing and being the way he said he wanted .. and it still wasn't enough) I am not sure they are things I can actually list.. I just know in my heart.. I did everything in my power to make it work.. I changed my behavior to fit HIS requirements.. I tried the "have dinner

on

the table meet him at the door" philosophy (my mothers idea).. I finally change myself, started doing thigns for me, to make myself happy, I

stopped

worry about if/when he was coming home..and jsut started living life wiht out him.(like going out to dinner with the kids.. etc.. if he didnt come.. oh well. his loss). My change in behavior.. COULD have sparked a change

in

him. but it didnt..he remained the same.. well I guess he did change in

some

degreee he actually got physically abusive towards the end..didnt actually hit me ,,but pinned me against the wall and on the floor teeling me how he had fantisized about hitting me all day. I think the best thign you can do is to be open and honest with her..

about

what you need/want from a relationship...dont try to change her...but

change

yourself into the person that YOU want to be. Try treating her the way you want her to treat you. She may or may not change..you have no control over that.. waht you do have control over is what you can live with. I finally knew it was over one day.(seems like such a minute thing but it was a HUGE awakening). when I asked him to pick up some food on the way home.aroudn 4pm.. and he didnt show up until 3AM....that was the same crap

I

had dealt with off and on for 14 years..I knew then.. taht he wasnt going

to

change. Listen to your heart, your soul, your intution....you already know what

you

need to do..it is jsut a matter of doing it. Good luck Kass

[Stephanie Stowe]

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c4fccl$2hpgat$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de...

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0403311006.5d439b84@posting.google.c om...

Jen, I sincerely don't know. Maybe the reason I'm only pursuing it half-heartedly, if what I'm doing could be considered that at all, is because I don't

think

it'd make a difference -- that it *wouldn't* serve as a wake-up call. She has latched on to the fact that my personality has changed (it came up

again

yesterday) -- and so why is it her problem? Why does she have to work on anything? (no, that's not what she said -- but it sure felt like it.)

I am curious. What DID she say? (As opposed to what it felt like she said.)

She acknowledged (by not questioning it) all the talk about differing love languages -- how one person needs to be treated to feel loved is not what the other one needs, and that "do unto others as you would have them do

unto

you" is not the right answer in a marriage. Yes, I think she even smiled

at

that. But she didn't ask (nor did I, I admit) "what can I do?" But when I'm with any of my lady friends and the thought of pushing past a boundary enters my mind I assure you the thought "that'll make my wife wake up and pay attention" is the farthest from my mind. Were she to catch me in bed with another woman what would she do? I don't know. Would she forgive me? There is a good chance she wouldn't. Ted

[Stephanie Stowe]

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c4fccl$2hpgat$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de...

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0403311006.5d439b84@posting.google.c om...

Jen, I sincerely don't know. Maybe the reason I'm only pursuing it half-heartedly, if what I'm doing could be considered that at all, is because I don't

think

it'd make a difference -- that it *wouldn't* serve as a wake-up call. She has latched on to the fact that my personality has changed (it came up

again

yesterday) -- and so why is it her problem? Why does she have to work on anything? (no, that's not what she said -- but it sure felt like it.)

I am curious. What DID she say? (As opposed to what it felt like she said.)

She acknowledged (by not questioning it) all the talk about differing love languages -- how one person needs to be treated to feel loved is not what the other one needs, and that "do unto others as you would have them do

unto

you" is not the right answer in a marriage. Yes, I think she even smiled

at

that. But she didn't ask (nor did I, I admit) "what can I do?" But when I'm with any of my lady friends and the thought of pushing past a boundary enters my mind I assure you the thought "that'll make my wife wake up and pay attention" is the farthest from my mind. Were she to catch me in bed with another woman what would she do? I don't know. Would she forgive me? There is a good chance she wouldn't. Ted

[Seeker]

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:wtednVMAVIr4G_DdRVn-ig@telcove.net...

I am curious. What DID she say? (As opposed to what it felt like she

said.)That was my shorthand way of saying that is the meaning I remember the words
as expressing -- I don't remember the words verbatim -- they may have said
exactly that, or they may have said something slightly different that I
interpreted as saying that.

Ted

[Seeker]

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:wtednVMAVIr4G_DdRVn-ig@telcove.net...

I am curious. What DID she say? (As opposed to what it felt like she

said.)That was my shorthand way of saying that is the meaning I remember the words
as expressing -- I don't remember the words verbatim -- they may have said
exactly that, or they may have said something slightly different that I
interpreted as saying that.

Ted

[Seeker]

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:-OadnWEuS-HrGPDd4p2dnA@telcove.net...

Many of these things are not mutually exclusive.

No, but the point was that if I treated her the way I'd like her to treat me
I would not be meeting her needs, and in some cases would do something
opposed to them. It also says that if I instinctively (without thinking)
only do what I would want to that sends various kinds of negative messages.

Ted

[Seeker]

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:-OadnWEuS-HrGPDd4p2dnA@telcove.net...

Many of these things are not mutually exclusive.

No, but the point was that if I treated her the way I'd like her to treat me
I would not be meeting her needs, and in some cases would do something
opposed to them. It also says that if I instinctively (without thinking)
only do what I would want to that sends various kinds of negative messages.

Ted

[whisper]

When I typed that. I was thinking more on the lines of RESPECT...

Of the things you listed.. I am sure you and your wife can find a
compromise.. if you only try...but hiding your true feelings is getting you
no where...

What have you got to lose? Your already unhappy...


Kass
"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c4k4de$2jo668$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de...

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:-OadnWEuS-HrGPDd4p2dnA@telcove.net...

No, but the point was that if I treated her the way I'd like her to treat

me

I would not be meeting her needs, and in some cases would do something opposed to them. It also says that if I instinctively (without thinking) only do what I would want to that sends various kinds of negative

messages.

Ted