one cheating question

[Stephanie Stowe]

Why? As in, why would anyone cheat within a marriage? It makes absolutely no
sense to me. Does it EVER end well?

S

[Jack C Lipton]

Stephanie Stowe wrote:

Why? As in, why would anyone cheat within a marriage? It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does it EVER end well?

When dealing with matters of the human gonads and the
human heart, "sensibility" is one of the last things you
can possibly expect.

I have to agree with you, though... it does NOT make sense
and all I've ever heard are horror stories.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

[Doug Anderson]

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:

"Stephanie Stowe" (stowe@whackthisvsac.org) writes:

The most common stat on this, is that relationships that begin with one person still maritally involved with another, have a *95%* rate of failure. IOW, compared to the oft cited 50% odds of divorce, those relationships have a *ten times worse* success rate ( 5% v/ 50% ). So, its not a matter of reason or logic.

Balderdash.

Which part of what I said is "balderdash?"

They don't want to *admit to themselves* what they have to do. Which is, either focus on the marriage *they chose to be in*, or end that marriage, *then* pursue other situations.

In what sense are you using the term "have to do?" Obviously they
have other choices, like having the affair, and screwing up their
marriage, or in some cases, having the affair and continuing the
marriage.

These are unlikely to be good choices, but they are still choices
people make.

[Andre Lieven]

Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes:

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:

Which part of what I said is "balderdash?"

I answered that in the three lines *quoted right below*...

They don't want to *admit to themselves* what they have to do. Which is, either focus on the marriage *they chose to be in*, or end that marriage, *then* pursue other situations.

IOW, the claim of " said poster *doesn't know how to make it happen*. "
is the balderdash, *as I explained in those three lines*...

In what sense are you using the term "have to do?" Obviously they have other choices, like having the affair, and screwing up their marriage, or in some cases, having the affair and continuing the marriage.

Well, I'm presuming that such people don't have a *specific intent*
to place their lives into a toilet...

These are unlikely to be good choices, but they are still choices people make.

I never said they can't/don't make them. I specified *why* they're
bad choices, *and* why the claim of " I don't know what to do "
is self serving excuse building balderdash.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Doug Anderson]

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:

I never said they can't/don't make them. I specified *why* they're bad choices, *and* why the claim of " I don't know what to do " is self serving excuse building balderdash.

Then I think you are making an error. There are plenty of people who
want things out of their relationship and don't know how to get them.

To lie or cheat in response to that is immoral of course, but it
doesn't change the fact that they may really not know how to get what
they want out of their relationship.

[Ellie]

Stephanie Stowe wrote:

Why? As in, why would anyone cheat within a marriage? It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does it EVER end well?

Someone once told me that marriage is like a diet. Even when you
plan a very sensible and well balanced eating plans, there are times
that you just crave something that you know is not good for
you! Then, it is up to your strength and resolve to resist the
temptation - and we know how many people never cheat on
their diets, right? :-)

[Ellie]

Doug Anderson wrote:

To lie or cheat in response to that is immoral of course, but it doesn't change the fact that they may really not know how to get what they want out of their relationship.

It's also possible that what they want cannot be gotten
from their marriage. Not that it justifies cheating, but
the assumption that everything that one may desire
can be provided within the marriage is unrealistic.

[urf]

"Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4011B865.E6581722@hotmail.com...

Doug Anderson wrote:

It's also possible that what they want cannot be gotten from their marriage. Not that it justifies cheating, but the assumption that everything that one may desire can be provided within the marriage is unrealistic.

I don't know what I want. I want different things at different times.
I want to buy a car, on monday it's a sports car, on tuesday it's an SUV,
on wednesday it's sedan and so on and so on.......

I know how to get it, I don't don't know what I want.

Tommorow I'll want something else.

What I want, is to want nothing and to have anything if I ever do want it.

I want to live forever. I want to be young again.

Where can I buy that?

[Doug Anderson]

Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> writes:

Doug Anderson wrote:

It's also possible that what they want cannot be gotten from their marriage. Not that it justifies cheating, but the assumption that everything that one may desire can be provided within the marriage is unrealistic.

Indeed. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. There are several reasons
they may not know how to get what they want; and one of them might be
that it isn't possible!

[Doug Anderson]

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:

"Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4011B865.E6581722@hotmail.com...

I don't know what I want. I want different things at different times. I want to buy a car, on monday it's a sports car, on tuesday it's an SUV, on wednesday it's sedan and so on and so on....... I know how to get it, I don't don't know what I want. Tommorow I'll want something else. What I want, is to want nothing and to have anything if I ever do want it. I want to live forever. I want to be young again. Where can I buy that?

How much money have you got?

[Andre Lieven]

Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes:

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:

Then I think you are making an error. There are plenty of people who want things out of their relationship and don't know how to get them.

That not the issue *I was addressing*...

Let me help you a bit more: Spot *the title of this thread*...

" Re: one cheating question ".

IOW, this thread is *about cheating*, Doug.

Sheesh.

To lie or cheat in response to that is immoral of course, but it doesn't change the fact that they may really not know how to get what they want out of their relationship.

OK, then they're self decieving *morons*.

Happy now ?

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Andre Lieven]

Ellie (ellie_first@hotmail.com) writes:

Doug Anderson wrote:

It's also possible that what they want cannot be gotten from their marriage. Not that it justifies cheating, but the assumption that everything that one may desire can be provided within the marriage is unrealistic.

Well, sure. Thats why we also have friends, other family,
work pals, acquaintences...

The idea that a marriage should provide 100% of your daily
needs of everything, is insane.

The idea that, once you agree to marry someone, of your
own free will and choice, that one ought to then grasp that
that kinda means " No more dating ", isn't rocket science.

All else is emotively enabling waffling...

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Doug Anderson]

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:

Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes:

That not the issue *I was addressing*... Let me help you a bit more: Spot *the title of this thread*... " Re: one cheating question ". IOW, this thread is *about cheating*, Doug. Sheesh.

So? Does it make your life simpler to believe that people just cheat
because they're bad? I guess that wraps things up in a simple way,
but the reality is more complex.

To lie or cheat in response to that is immoral of course, but it doesn't change the fact that they may really not know how to get what they want out of their relationship. OK, then they're self decieving *morons*.

I see. People cheat because they are bad, or because they are morons.

Look, even you must realize that things are more complicated than
that. After all, not all morons cheat, and neither do all bad people.

[Bill in Co.]

Doug Anderson wrote:

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:

So? Does it make your life simpler to believe that people just cheat because they're bad? I guess that wraps things up in a simple way, but the reality is more complex.

How so? Are you "rationalizing away" their behavior now, Doug? If so, Tony
(I think it was) was right - you really ARE way out there in "liberalsville".
Next thing you'll say is that cheating is perfectly understandable!

Then I would say to you, Doug just what ISN'T perfectly understandable, in
YOUR mindset?

[Ellie]

Andre Lieven wrote:

The idea that, once you agree to marry someone, of your own free will and choice, that one ought to then grasp that that kinda means " No more dating ", isn't rocket science.

The question was : "why would anyone cheat
within a marriage". I was responding to that, not what
people "ought" to do. People "ought" to do a lot of
things that they don't...

[Bill in Co.]

Ellie wrote:

Andre Lieven wrote:

The question was : "why would anyone cheat within a marriage". I was responding to that, not what people "ought" to do. People "ought" to do a lot of things that they don't...

A more accurate assessment would be that some people will have affairs, and
some will not. ("People" is too generalized).

[Dreamspinner3]

Why? Well, I doubt it would happen within a happy marriage--if both
people are happy with one another & in love, then there in no
compelling reason to look elsewhere. I don't know of any couple that
is happily married that cheating has occurred in personally.

Now, coming from a marriage that is in an extremely bad point right
now, I can certainly see how cheating can happen. When things are
extremely unhappy within the marriage, looking outside for it for
comfort and companionship is pretty normal, if you ask me.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:12:59 -0500, "Stephanie Stowe"
<stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:

Why? As in, why would anyone cheat within a marriage? It makes absolutely nosense to me. Does it EVER end well?S

-----
Kim/Dreamspinner3
Visit My Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/

[urf]

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gykQb.24270$1e.116@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...

Doug Anderson wrote:

How so? Are you "rationalizing away" their behavior now, Doug? If so,

Tony

(I think it was) was right - you really ARE way out there in

"liberalsville".

Next thing you'll say is that cheating is perfectly understandable! Then I would say to you, Doug just what ISN'T perfectly understandable,

in

YOUR mindset?

Ya think there was ever a "conservative" that cheated on his wife?

[Bill in Co.]

Kim/Dreamspinner3 wrote:

Why? Well, I doubt it would happen within a happy marriage--if both people are happy with one another & in love, then there in no compelling reason to look elsewhere. I don't know of any couple that is happily married that cheating has occurred in personally. Now, coming from a marriage that is in an extremely bad point right now, I can certainly see how cheating can happen. When things are extremely unhappy within the marriage, looking outside for it for comfort and companionship is pretty normal, if you ask me.

Then you FIRST get out of the marriage. You don't have an affair while you're
in a marriage. (It's just having basic integrity and morality).

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:12:59 -0500, "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:

----- Kim/Dreamspinner3 Visit My Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/

[Doug Anderson]

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:gykQb.24270$1e.116@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...

Tony

"liberalsville".

in

Ya think there was ever a "conservative" that cheated on his wife?

The problem is simpler. Bill has trouble understanding that asking
_why_ things happen is different condoning them.

But Bill and I have been down that road before, and he's made it clear
that its useless to go down it again.

[Bill in Co.]

Doug Anderson wrote:

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:

in

YOUR mindset? Ya think there was ever a "conservative" that cheated on his wife? The problem is simpler. Bill has trouble understanding that asking _why_ things happen is different condoning them. But Bill and I have been down that road before, and he's made it clear that its useless to go down it again.

If you want to look for whys as excuses or "justifiable causes", then why not
try to analyze why serial killers kill their victims, while you're at it?
But in the end, what does it accomplish? Nothing.

[Bill in Co.]

urf wrote:

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:gykQb.24270$1e.116@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...

Ya think there was ever a "conservative" that cheated on his wife?

Yes I do. So what? Not all would.

[Seeker]

In article <e5n08egsw0.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:

Then I think you are making an error. There are plenty of people who want things out of their relationship and don't know how to get them. To lie or cheat in response to that is immoral of course, but it doesn't change the fact that they may really not know how to get what they want out of their relationship.

Where is the line between morality and immorality drawn?
Suppose your spouse had an accident which rendered him or her in a
permanent vegatative state -- or perhaps just the mental state of an
infant. Would it be immoral to seek to have your needs for physical
and emotional intimacy be met by someone else, even though you were
still married to that spouse?

*Is* having an affair under conditions where you sincerely believe your
spouse cannot fill your needs immoral -- or just unwise? (No, I'm not
seriously looking for an excuse -- just pushing the limits of the
discussion.)

Ted

[Seeker]

In article <sbmQb.24417$1e.23768@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink .net>,
Bill in Co. <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote:

Then you FIRST get out of the marriage.

Can you not think of circumstances where getting out of the marriage
would be worse for the cheated-upon spouse than cheating would be? I
can -- in principle, anyway.

Ted

[Tony Miller]

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 04:11:08 GMT, Bill in Co.
<LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote:

Doug Anderson wrote:

in

If you want to look for whys as excuses or "justifiable causes", then why not try to analyze why serial killers kill their victims, while you're at it? But in the end, what does it accomplish? Nothing.

Well, in that case, it might help you identify a serial killer before they
start, or catch one before they kill again.

Want to try another analogy?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

[Bill in Co.]

Tony Miller wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 04:11:08 GMT, Bill in Co. <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote:

not

try to analyze why serial killers kill their victims, while you're at it? But in the end, what does it accomplish? Nothing. Well, in that case, it might help you identify a serial killer before they

start,
Tell me something. Has that actually worked, in practice? (Don't think
so)

or catch one before they kill again.

And obviously once they've killed someone, the writing's on the wall..

Yes, it could be interesting to know how they think, from a psychological study
point of view. But that wasn't the point here.

[Marcus Ulpius Traianus]

urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote:

Ya think there was ever a "conservative" that cheated on his wife?

George Bush Sr., who's had an ongoing affair with a former aid. Google on
"George Bush Jennifer Fitzgerald".

[urf]

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:8gmQb.24427$1e.14094@newsread2.news.pas.earth link.net...

urf wrote:

who

>>> want things out of their relationship and don't know how to get

them.

>>>> That not the issue *I was addressing*...>>>> Let me help you a bit more: Spot *the title of this thread*...>>>> " Re: one cheating question ".>>>> IOW, this thread is *about cheating*, Doug.>>>> Sheesh.>> So? Does it make your life simpler to believe that people just cheat> because they're bad? I guess that wraps things up in a simple way,> but the reality is more complex. How so? Are you "rationalizing away" their behavior now, Doug? If

so,

Tony (I think it was) was right - you really ARE way out there in "liberalsville". Next thing you'll say is that cheating is perfectly understandable! Then I would say to you, Doug just what ISN'T perfectly

understandable, in

YOUR mindset? Ya think there was ever a "conservative" that cheated on his wife? Yes I do. So what? Not all would.

Then why the "liberal" comment?

[urf]

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:230120042329402888%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com...

In article <e5n08egsw0.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:

Where is the line between morality and immorality drawn? Suppose your spouse had an accident which rendered him or her in a permanent vegatative state -- or perhaps just the mental state of an infant. Would it be immoral to seek to have your needs for physical and emotional intimacy be met by someone else, even though you were still married to that spouse? *Is* having an affair under conditions where you sincerely believe your spouse cannot fill your needs immoral -- or just unwise? (No, I'm not seriously looking for an excuse -- just pushing the limits of the discussion.) Ted

[urf]

"Kim/Dreamspinner3" <dreamspinner3@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:8gq3101kvd1j6buqjkfm60du2pl6cu1bvr@4ax.com...

Why? Well, I doubt it would happen within a happy marriage--if both people are happy with one another & in love, then there in no compelling reason to look elsewhere. I don't know of any couple that is happily married that cheating has occurred in personally. Now, coming from a marriage that is in an extremely bad point right now, I can certainly see how cheating can happen. When things are extremely unhappy within the marriage, looking outside for it for comfort and companionship is pretty normal, if you ask me. On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:12:59 -0500, "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:

no

sense to me. Does it EVER end well?

A "Happy Marriage" is defined by the participants. What ever "deal"
they work out between them may not work for others.

Marriage is a defined contract between two people.