Common disaster death

[dulieber]

Consider husband, wife, both of their 2 children, and all 4 of their
grandchildren go on a cruise, and the ship sinks. Husband and wife
have wills, leaving all to kids, then grandkids. But with all dead,
where does the husband and wife's estate go? No living parents, wife
does have siblings. Residence is Michigan.

[Michael Jacobs]

dulieber69-game@yahoo.com (dulieber) wrote in message
news:<8pd0m0lkc068spajetqvnbfevavo820vsq@4ax.com>. ..

Consider husband, wife, both of their 2 children, and all 4 of their grandchildren go on a cruise, and the ship sinks. Husband and wife have wills, leaving all to kids, then grandkids. But with all dead, where does the husband and wife's estate go? No living parents, wife does have siblings. Residence is Michigan.

What happens in case of lapse of all named legacies would depend on MI
law.

But in general, assuming this is a hypothetical and hasn't already
happened, the testators (the grandparents, presumably) would be well
advised to include both (a) a simultaneous death clause, and (b) an
"ultimate taker" clause, in their wills.

Under the Simultaneous Death clause, if both the testator and one of
the intended beneficiaries dies at about the same time, it is assumed
the beneficiary pre-deceased the testator, so that his share would
instead go direct to those who would take thru that beneficiary,
rather than having to be probated twice.

Under the "ultimate taker" clause, the testators specify what they
want to happen if all the specific bequests lapse. Often, it will
just say that the residuary estate should be distributed to those who
would take under the intestacy laws of (their state) as if they had
died without a will.

If that's the case, the grandma's siblings would get it all.

--
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Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
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(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300

[Gene E. Utterback, EA]

"dulieber" <dulieber69-game@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8pd0m0lkc068spajetqvnbfevavo820vsq@4ax.com...

Consider husband, wife, both of their 2 children, and all 4 of their grandchildren go on a cruise, and the ship sinks. Husband and wife have wills, leaving all to kids, then grandkids. But with all dead, where does the husband and wife's estate go? No living parents, wife does have siblings. Residence is Michigan.

Your example may be missing something, but I'm not sure.

First - were the spouses of the 2 adult children on the cruise? Either they
weren't on the cruise or these adult children are incestuous <g> since you
don't list any other possible parents for the grandchildren. Let's assume
that the spouses of the adult children were on the cruise and were lost as
well.

Second - under the circumstances you describe, it is likely that the spouses
of the adult children would have family that could likely inherit, but let
us assume that there really is no one available to inherit the estate.

I can't speak to Michigan, but I would be willing to bet that most states
treat this in a similar fashion - In Maryland, when there is no one left to
inherit an estate, I believe the estate goes to the Maryland Department of
Education.

Gene E. Utterback, EA

[Thomas Anantharaman]

dulieber wrote:

Consider husband, wife, both of their 2 children, and all 4 of theirgrandchildren go on a cruise, and the ship sinks. Husband and wifehave wills, leaving all to kids, then grandkids. But with all dead,where does the husband and wife's estate go? No living parents, wifedoes have siblings. Residence is Michigan.

In most states the law presumes that the wife outlived the husband by a
few seconds, so all the money would pass to the wife and then to the
wife's intestate heirs, ie her siblings..

[sufaud]

On 7/10/04 22:16, in article becbm01ofmku55trq9crfuou9d6fem5ogh@4ax.com,
"Thomas Anantharaman" <tsa@biostat.wisc.edu> wrote:

In most states the law presumes that the wife outlived the husband by a few seconds, so all the money would pass to the wife and then to the wife's intestate heirs, ie her siblings..

Any competent lawyer will draft a will with a survival clause or one
relating to simultaneous death.

In the case you hypothesize, the biggest asset of the estate will probably
be the cause of action for wrongful death against the cruise line.

Other than that, I'm not going to waste time imagining how state laws
differ. Some law review editor has probably already done the work. Or,
better, American Law Reports, Annotated. Go to your county law library and
look up ALR's indexes, and also the Index to Legal Periodicals.

And when you're done, come back and tell us the result.

[James Alexander]

dulieber69-game@yahoo.com (dulieber) wrote in message
news:<8pd0m0lkc068spajetqvnbfevavo820vsq@4ax.com>. ..

Consider husband, wife, both of their 2 children, and all 4 of their grandchildren go on a cruise, and the ship sinks. Husband and wife have wills, leaving all to kids, then grandkids. But with all dead, where does the husband and wife's estate go? No living parents, wife does have siblings. Residence is Michigan.

Michigan's probate law underwent a complete overhaul in 2000,
resulting in EPIC (Estate and Protected Individuals Code). I don't
claim to understand it fully because my Wills class was based on
pre-2000 law. With that disclaimer in mind...

The terms of the wills' residuary and anti-lapse clauses will control,
to the extent that they are not in conflict with EPIC. If those
clauses say something to the effect of "by law" or "according to the
rules of intestate succession", then each grandchild's surviving
parent will receive that grandchild's respective share of the estates
(unless their parental rights have been terminated).

The pertinent portions of the Michigan statutes are available at:

http://www.michiganlegislature.org/m...603&highlight=

and

http://www.michiganlegislature.org/m...604&highlight=

[Christopher Green]

"Gene E. Utterback, EA" <eagent@alliancetax.com> wrote in message
news:<aip8m0lu7q9n19ddepvb7to3b2v8s8usrf@4ax.com>. ..

"dulieber" <dulieber69-game@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8pd0m0lkc068spajetqvnbfevavo820vsq@4ax.com...

Consider husband, wife, both of their 2 children, and all 4 of their grandchildren go on a cruise, and the ship sinks. Husband and wife have wills, leaving all to kids, then grandkids. But with all dead, where does the husband and wife's estate go? No living parents, wife does have siblings. Residence is Michigan.

Your example may be missing something, but I'm not sure. First - were the spouses of the 2 adult children on the cruise? Either they weren't on the cruise or these adult children are incestuous <g> since you don't list any other possible parents for the grandchildren. Let's assume that the spouses of the adult children were on the cruise and were lost as well.

Interesting point: if they survived, they might inherit through the
estates of their deceased spouses, the adult children. But if the
adult children don't inherit, they'd get nothing: there's nothing else
to put them in the lineup for intestate succession.

Second - under the circumstances you describe, it is likely that the spouses of the adult children would have family that could likely inherit, but let us assume that there really is no one available to inherit the estate.

Also depends on whether the adult children inherit. There's an
argument either way, but I'm leaning toward (see below) the position
that the adult children don't inherit.

I can't speak to Michigan, but I would be willing to bet that most states treat this in a similar fashion - In Maryland, when there is no one left to inherit an estate, I believe the estate goes to the Maryland Department of Education.

Michigan uses the rule that an heir that does not survive the decedent
by at least 120 hours is deemed to have predeceased the decedent,
unless applying this rule would cause the estate to pass to the state.
If this actually applies here, nobody who went down with the ship
survived long enough to inherit, nor do any of their heirs inherit, so
the hypothetical in-laws of the adult children are shut out. But
neither would the state inherit.

The wife's siblings would get at least so much of the estate as was
the wife's separate property and her share of marital property. They
are the highest-priority non-empty class of heirs contemplated by the
intestate succession law. They would have a good argument that they
are entitled to the entire estate.

Surviving aunts, uncles, and cousins of the husband would also have a
good argument that they are entitled to so much of the estate as was
the husband's separate property and his share of marital property.
They would argue that the simultaneous demise precluded the wife's
succession to the husband's property.

Michigan's rule on simultaneous demise can be read so as to recommend
"language dealing explicitly with simultaneous deaths or deaths in a
common disaster" and possibly to "expressly [indicate] that an
individual is not required to survive an event, including the death of
another individual, by any specified period".

--
Not a lawyer,

Chris Green

[DutchRudder]

Im sorry, but that's not a topic I really want to think about. That is a sad, sad day

[Betty3]

DutchRudder, please do not reply to old threads. Thanks.