Illinois parking ticket question: standing vs parking?

[Russ Khater]

Strange experience today:
I was with my son at a birthday party held at an enormous
sport-fitness complex out in the suburbs. It had just started to snow
when my wife came to pick us up at the agreed upon time of 2:30. The
parking lot was full near the entrance except for about 20 handicapped
spots flanking the main entrance atrium. My wife pulled into one of
the handicapped spots that were further away from the actual entrance,
so that any handicapped patrons would not only have many spots to
choose from, but many spots that were closer to the entrance than she
was. My wife didn't want to leave the car or take out our 3 year-old
daughter who was sleeping in her car seat at the time, so she left the
motor running as she waited for me any my son.

So I was surprised to hear her in tears when I called her up to find
out where she was at 2:35 when my son and I were at the front entrance
and couldn't see her. She was upset because just as I had called her,
a police car blocked her in her spot and a policewoman had come to her
window and handed her a $100 ticket. No warning. No discussion. No
nothing. Just roll down your window, here's your ticket for
parking(sic) in a handicapped spot.

When I got to the car, the policewoman had only moved down another 25
yards or so to her next victim. I got out of the car, and told her,
"My wife was NOT parked, she was STANDING, with the motor running and
the vehicle occupied!" The policewoman simply gave me the old, "Tell
it to the judge. My badge number is ..." line. I assured her I would,
and got back into the car.

Of note, the parking spot in question had a sign posted of the
wheelchair logo, with the words, "Reserved Parking" beneath. No
comments on standing.

In Illinois, do we have a legitimate gripe with this ticket? I had
always thought that "standing" meant, "car running and occupied", and
was distinctly different from parking (hence the presence of signs
which specifically say, "No Parking, No Standing."

Thanks for any advice!

-RIK

[John F. Carr]

In article <sde7105ln9tmsc52plmau3tvh8vu6ppmtf@4ax.com>,
Russ Khater <rkhater@hotmail.com> wrote:

Strange experience today:I was with my son at a birthday party held at an enormoussport-fitness complex out in the suburbs. It had just started to snowwhen my wife came to pick us up at the agreed upon time of 2:30. Theparking lot was full near the entrance except for about 20 handicappedspots flanking the main entrance atrium. My wife pulled into one ofthe handicapped spots that were further away from the actual entrance,so that any handicapped patrons would not only have many spots tochoose from, but many spots that were closer to the entrance than shewas. My wife didn't want to leave the car or take out our 3 year-olddaughter who was sleeping in her car seat at the time, so she left themotor running as she waited for me any my son.[and got parking ticket]In Illinois, do we have a legitimate gripe with this ticket? I hadalways thought that "standing" meant, "car running and occupied", andwas distinctly different from parking (hence the presence of signswhich specifically say, "No Parking, No Standing."

See <http://www.legis.state.il.us/legislation/ilcs/ilcs2.asp?ChapterID=49>
for the state vehicle code.

625 ILCS 5/11-1301.3 prohibits unauthorized "parking" in a handicap
space so the no parking sign correctly states the law.

625 ILCS 5/1-155.5 defines parking to mean "the standing of a vehicle,
whether occupied or not, otherwise than when temporarily and actually
engaged in loading or unloading merchandise or passengers."

So the answer is maybe, depending on whether the judge thinks
waiting five minutes to pick somebody up counts as temporary
and loading.

--
John Carr (jfc@mit.edu)

[Isaac]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 07:45:56 -0500, Russ Khater <rkhater@hotmail.com> wrote:

Strange experience today: I was with my son at a birthday party held at an enormous sport-fitness complex out in the suburbs. It had just started to snow when my wife came to pick us up at the agreed upon time of 2:30. The parking lot was full near the entrance except for about 20 handicapped spots flanking the main entrance atrium. My wife pulled into one of the handicapped spots that were further away from the actual entrance, so that any handicapped patrons would not only have many spots to choose from, but many spots that were closer to the entrance than she was. My wife didn't want to leave the car or take out our 3 year-old daughter who was sleeping in her car seat at the time, so she left the motor running as she waited for me any my son.

Look up the statute and see if there is a distinction made between
the parking and standing. If there is not a distinction, I don't think
the lack of a "No standing" wording on the sign will be helpful.

Isaac

[Michael Jacobs]

rkhater@hotmail.com (Russ Khater) wrote in message
news:<sde7105ln9tmsc52plmau3tvh8vu6ppmtf@4ax.com>. ..

Strange experience today: I was with my son at a birthday party held at an enormous sport-fitness complex out in the suburbs. It had just started to snow when my wife came to pick us up at the agreed upon time of 2:30. The parking lot was full near the entrance except for about 20 handicapped spots flanking the main entrance atrium. My wife pulled into one of the handicapped spots that were further away from the actual entrance, so that any handicapped patrons would not only have many spots to choose from, but many spots that were closer to the entrance than she was. My wife didn't want to leave the car or take out our 3 year-old daughter who was sleeping in her car seat at the time, so she left the motor running as she waited for me any my son.

In hindsight, wasn't there a "loading zone" in front of the building,
where she could stand with the motor running until you came out? Even
if it was marked "no parking" IMO she'd have a better argument pulling
up parallel to the curb there, than actually heading into a marked
handicap spot. Or else she could have circled the lot until seeing
you at the entrance. Sorry, I think she made an unwise choice and
got caught. It doesn't matter how many handicap spots were open,
closer to the door than where she parked. It doesn't matter if the
motor is running, if she was occupying the spot; what difference would
that make to a handicap user who also wanted to use that space? It
won't hurt to tell your story to the judge -- he may be sympathetic,
under the circumstances -- but don't count on it. And if your time
to take off and go to court is worth more than the $100 ticket, which
BTW probably _doesn't_ count as a moving violation or affect your
insurance or anything like that, just swallow the lesson, pay the
ticket, and don't do it again. Whatever you decide to do, good luck.

--
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult a lawyer in a private
communication.

Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300

[Guest]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 07:45:56 -0500 Russ Khater <rkhater@hotmail.com> whittled
these words:
<snip>

When I got to the car, the policewoman had only moved down another 25 yards or so to her next victim. I got out of the car, and told her, "My wife was NOT parked, she was STANDING, with the motor running and the vehicle occupied!" The policewoman simply gave me the old, "Tell it to the judge. My badge number is ..." line. I assured her I would, and got back into the car.
Of note, the parking spot in question had a sign posted of the wheelchair logo, with the words, "Reserved Parking" beneath. No comments on standing.
In Illinois, do we have a legitimate gripe with this ticket? I had always thought that "standing" meant, "car running and occupied", and was distinctly different from parking (hence the presence of signs which specifically say, "No Parking, No Standing."

This is from the Village of Winthrop Harbor, Illinois
http://www.winthropharbor.com/ordina...itle7_ch70.asp

"PARK or PARKING. The standing of a vehicle, whether occupied or not,
otherwise than when temporarily and actually engaged in loading or
unloading merchandise or passengers. (ILCS Ch. 625, Act 5 § 1-156)

also see
www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/
2001/1stDistrict/August/Wp/1994087.doc

"Illinois Vehicle Code (upon which the jury was instructed) defines "park"
or "parking" as "the standing of a vehicle, whether occupied or not,
otherwise than when temporarily and actually engaged in loading or
unloading merchandise or passengers." (Emphasis added.) 625 ILCS 5/1-156
(West 1998) (form-erly Ill. Red. Stat. 1991, ch. 95½, par. 1-156). "

http://paperlined.org/illinois/ilcs/...25act5Sub1.htm

Diane Blackman

[Christopher Green]

rkhater@hotmail.com (Russ Khater) wrote in message
news:<sde7105ln9tmsc52plmau3tvh8vu6ppmtf@4ax.com>. ..

.... My wife pulled into one of the handicapped spots that were further away from the actual entrance, so that any handicapped patrons would not only have many spots to choose from, but many spots that were closer to the entrance than she was..... In Illinois, do we have a legitimate gripe with this ticket?

Looks like you're SOL. Illinois defines "parking" in its Vehicle Code
(625 ILCS 5) at "Sec. 1‑156. Park or Parking. Means the standing
of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, otherwise than when temporarily
and actually engaged in loading or unloading merchandise or
passengers." So waiting, even with the car occupied and the engine
running, is "parking". And parking in places reserved for the disabled
is covered at "Sec. 11‑1301.3. Unauthorized use of parking
places reserved for persons with disabilities. (a) It shall be
prohibited to park any motor vehicle which is not properly displaying
registration plates or decals issued to a person with
disabilities...." (The statewide fine appears to be $100;
municipalities are authorized to impose greater fines, up to $200.)

--
Not a lawyer,

Chris Green

[David S Chesler]

Michael Jacobs wrote:

In hindsight, wasn't there a "loading zone" in front of the building, where she could stand with the motor running until you came out? Even if it was marked "no parking" IMO she'd have a better argument pulling up parallel to the curb there, than actually heading into a marked handicap spot. Or else she could have circled the lot until seeing you at the entrance. Sorry, I think she made an unwise choice and got caught.

I assume "unwise" is in the legal sense, rather than the practical.
It makes perfect sense to me to get the car a bit out of the way, so
that people with their doors open, one foot on the sidewalk and one
foot in the car, can use the loading zone, and those with someplace
to go can use the aisles of the lot.

It doesn't matter how many handicap spots were open, closer to the door than where she parked. It doesn't matter if the motor is running, if she was occupying the spot; what difference would that make to a handicap user who also wanted to use that space?

Because that handicapped user has a perfectly good, slightly
closer, space to use? Does Space #7 hold some special significance
to him, like it's his lucky space or something? Even if it does, original
poster is there, alert, and can move her car someplace else.

Some jurisdictions distinguish parking, standing, and stopping.
Stopping is passengers only -- and it's not clear if that includes
waiting for the passenger to pay the cabbie the fare, or for your
grandmother, waiting in the vestibule, to see you've pulled out front
and hobble across the sidewalk, since neitehr is "actually loading
or unloading passengers". Standing is for merchandise or goods --
and presumably you're allowed to leave your truck there while you
carry the 2-wheeler of stuff between the truck and the store.

If your chauffeur is waiting the three hours for the opera to be
over, that's probably parking. But in this case, where driver and
passenger are attempting a rendezvous (as opposed to a tryst, which
would be parking) it strikes me as within the meaning of stopping.

--
- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu>
IANAL, but I have gotten paid to drive trucks and buses.

[Allston Parking Refugee]

mjacobslaw@comcast.net (Michael Jacobs) wrote:

It doesn't matter if the motor is running, if she was occupying the spot; what difference would that make to a handicap user who also wanted to use that space?

The difference is she would see the handicapped person (or if she
didn't, the person could give a short honk), and she would then move
the car. The reason we need strict regulations for handicapped
parking, as opposed to handicapped bathrooms, ramps, or elevators, is
that once you leave there's no way for a handicapped person to ask you
to move your car.

It's because of horror stories like this one that I will park almost
anywhere before I park in a handicapped space, even if it means
leaving my car unattended while blocking someone in.

-Apr

[Will Swain]

Strange experience yesterday: I cannot believe how similar it is to Russ' story below. I will bet it the Illinois suburb location is exactly the same.

I was traveling with my 11 y/o daughter and 3 y/o son, on my way to an "enormous sport-fitness complex out in the suburbs" to pick up my 9 y/o daughter just finishing a birthday party aroud 2:55pm. My 3 y/o son was sleeping in the car, so my plan was to have my 11 y/o daughter to run into the complex and get my 9 y/o daughter while I stayed with my sleeping son. I saw about 20 unoccupied ADA stalls in front of the building, also a fire lane, but no "passenger loading / unloading zones", so I chose to pull into an unoccupied ADA parking stall about 6 stalls from the front, leaving vacant stalls between me and the main entrance. My thought was this was the safest place for my daughter to exit the vehicle and I had visual control of her walking up to the entrance of the complex, and I was not obstructing traffic. No more than 10 seconds after I pulled in, a male police officer approached me and asked me if I had an ADA placard, (I had not even put the car into park yet, I did not turn off the vehilce, my 11 y/o daughter didn't even exit the vehicle yet. Note...this was only 10 seconds at most!) I was taken off guard and of course I didn't have a ADA placard. The officer said "I would have much rather you pulled into the fire lane then to stop here", which to me, (a part-time fireman since 1996) made absolutely no sense when considering the safety of my children and traffic congestion. He didn't give me a chance to reply to his comment, he looked at my son napping in the back seat as he simply took my license and issued me a $250 ticket. When he returned to my vehilce to give me the ticket, I asked if this was an actual $250 ticket. His response, as he walked away and yelled over his shoulder was, "Yes, your here aren't you? I am not going to argue with you, you can go to court if you choose".

The funny thing about this, is that in addition to being a part-time Fireman, my full-time profession is a licensed architect and I design ADA parking stalls into all of my buildings, in addition to other ADA compliant elements in every portion of the my new construction. I am sure we can all agree that child safety is at least equal to importance of physcally disabled.

It is obvious that there is a flagerant problem at this sports complex at the corner of I-55 and County Line Rd. It appears the Police department has found a cash cow and we need to do something about this. In my humble opinion, the police are praying upon citizens who choose safety in a parking lot that has been poorly designed.

I will be taking this one to court for the principle of the matter. I am sure anybody affiliated with ADA compliance wouild agree the police department is not adhereing to the spirit of the ADA guidelines.

Is anyone aware of the maximum $$fine for 2009? Is it still $200

[edgibson]

Wow!
Happy Halloween!

This post has been brought back from the dead. 5 years, too.

[Jedimonkeylizard]

Strange experience today:
I was with my son at a birthday party held at an enormous
sport-fitness complex out in the suburbs. It had just started to snow
when my wife came to pick us up at the agreed upon time of 2:30. The
parking lot was full near the entrance except for about 20 handicapped
spots flanking the main entrance atrium. My wife pulled into one of
the handicapped spots that were further away from the actual entrance,
so that any handicapped patrons would not only have many spots to
choose from, but many spots that were closer to the entrance than she
was. My wife didn't want to leave the car or take out our 3 year-old
daughter who was sleeping in her car seat at the time, so she left the
motor running as she waited for me any my son.

So I was surprised to hear her in tears when I called her up to find
out where she was at 2:35 when my son and I were at the front entrance
and couldn't see her. She was upset because just as I had called her,
a police car blocked her in her spot and a policewoman had come to her
window and handed her a $100 ticket. No warning. No discussion. No
nothing. Just roll down your window, here's your ticket for
parking(sic) in a handicapped spot.

When I got to the car, the policewoman had only moved down another 25
yards or so to her next victim. I got out of the car, and told her,
"My wife was NOT parked, she was STANDING, with the motor running and
the vehicle occupied!" The policewoman simply gave me the old, "Tell
it to the judge. My badge number is ..." line. I assured her I would,
and got back into the car.

Of note, the parking spot in question had a sign posted of the
wheelchair logo, with the words, "Reserved Parking" beneath. No
comments on standing.

In Illinois, do we have a legitimate gripe with this ticket? I had
always thought that "standing" meant, "car running and occupied", and
was distinctly different from parking (hence the presence of signs
which specifically say, "No Parking, No Standing."

Thanks for any advice!

-RIK

I have no sympathy for people that illegally use the ADA spots regardless of where they are...on streets or in lots.

In the City of Chicago, it is a 200.00 Fine and we will Tow you to City Impound Lots for an Extra 160.00 Tow Fee and 10.00 per day storage fee's.

I would have pulled out my ticket book and written you myself.

[cbg]

This thread originated in 2004 and has been dead since 2009. The OP is long gone.

[Jedimonkeylizard]

This thread originated in 2004 and has been dead since 2009. The OP is long gone.

A HTML Script for auto locking posts that are older than 365 days would be good.

[cbg]

I agree. But that's not my decision to make. So instead of arguing with me about how you think things ought to be done or how people ought to respond to you, I suggest you simply stop posting to dead threads.