On 14 Sep 2003, [email protected] wrote:
Earthlink @ Mindpsring.com wrote:-* * * [A]s regards the time factor ONLY:* you contracted for delivery of milk from your national dairy,* the quantity . . . and charge [to be] determined by what you take/get from the . . . deliver[er]. The driver . . .of the cart conveys the details to his boss . . . [but the] accounts department [carelessly or deliberately makes mistakes about sums delivered and funds due on its records].* the[ accounts department acknowledges but also tries to explain away these errors and in effect say the customer] should just report the errors (at your cost) when they occur, and they will adjust your account accordingly.* [T]o [try to] force the matter into court . . .
Correct. I don't believe human speech/text can nearly approach.. . . you plainly do not mean "force" and, instead, just try to trigger (or by passive-aggressive behavior try to induce) a lawsuit whereas it was open to the customer actually to "force the matter into court" by the customer doing exactly that (i.e., suing) . . .
The (possible wrong) logic is that 'suing is expensive' in this. . . for an exposure/resolution of the matter [and it is postage-expensive and also annoying to the customer to write complaint letters].
This is still another reason why the actually dilligent if also actually sensible customer who genuinely wants to "force" a resolution ought sue.
applicable (non functioning) society.
Provided you know you are right, provoke the big boy to sue.
Again (perhaps naively) one assumes safety, provided you don't[Rather than sue, the customer writes letters] treatening to withhold payment. This of course is a way in effect to say, "Please sue me!" although it is (as you have learned but should have known) also a potentially dangerous ploy if, f'rinstance, there is some (whether careless or deliberate: I do not know) screw-up in notifying the customer of the lawsuit by the creditor which does result.
do anything unjust, and you collect all the evidence of each of
your steps, your incompetent/corrupt opponent will eventually
fall in the hole - provided they don't assasinate you before hand.
If I'm not mistaked the above 9 lines is ONE sentence.One who wants to presume the correctness of all the facts as you here posit them, and thus for the sake of analysis corespondingly presumes that the milk supplier has made the billing and related errors you posit, will therefore also have to note that a key element of the "facts" as you state them is that the customer is a very impractical (if also cantankerous) fellow (ain't it usually a man?) who, contrary to his own self-interest, chooses to deal with the problem (more precisely: not deal with the problem) in probably the least efficient manner available.
From the date at which you start with-holding payment, the true and faulty state of the accounts is (simplified) . . .Month Bill True amount owed================================1 $11 $102 $22 $203 $33 $304 $44 $405 $55 $502 $66 $603 $77 $704 $88 $80
Regardless whether you were as confused or careless in the [r]eal-life itemization you "simplify" above (note the repetition of months "2" and "3" and "4" though you begin your posting with a representation that you will recite the facts in "chronological" order and preface the table itself with a "From the date . . ." characterization), i.e., regardless whether you are referring immediately above to eight or just to five months, this is just another way to say that the customer has more than more than more than suffient notice about the errors and time to commence a lawsuit bringing the matter to a head.
And I don't understand it. Or perhaps you are saying, the table which
spans 8 months, clearly shows 8 continuous months of errors - ample
'evidence' and "time to commence a lawsuit". That's true.
Yes.Otherwise, it is just a way still again to repeat that the customer and the company disagreed about the sums due during and which became payable for the months in question
Apparently. And I don't know how to 'fix' that, without a brainNow we get to the time sequence/relationship, [which seems to be a problem with verbal-types /legal-people]. The "problem" in your postings is that you don't state the facts clearly, that you interrupt yourself, and that you do this in a repetitive manner which deflects attention from the signficant matters about which you purport to ask.
Well, if the demand letter from the dairy's lawer is not grounded on* [As expected, y]ou receive a demand letter from the dairy . . . [at a corresponding date] for the month 3 bill, demanding $33 . . . .* You receive a demand letter from the dairy's lawer, at month 5 demanding $33 (which you assume is based on the previous demand letter and the same [faulty] bill of month 3).
Unless there is something in the letter itself which supports what you say you here "assume" (though you do not say that there is), there might be any number of reasons (or "assumptions") why the lawyer wrote this letter.
the dairy's demand letter (and, yes nothing 'in the letter itself
supports' my assumption) then my whole argument is void.
BTW in the area of jurisdiction applicable (south africa) they have
lots of mention about "reasonable". I think also w.r.t. assumptions.
Doesn't that also apply to legislation in which you are trained ?
I think that analysing the infinite alternate possibilities, just causesYou having said in other related postings that the lawyer's letter to which you here refer was no more than a demand for payment (of an incorrect) sum, one option was to respond, "I dispute the statements in your letter."
loss of focus on the core issues ?That sounds good. But what I actually want is the DATE of cause of* A summons is issued in month 6 (which you don't receive, but which [non-receipt] is irrelevant to our discussion of time, and 'cause of action') claiming $33. The "cause of action" as actually stated was something to the effect, "defendant owes plaintiff $33 for goods/services sold, delivered, and accepted" (and unless/until you have cited a statutory or rule or caselaw ruling to the effect that more than that is need to state a "cause of action" in the court of interest to you one ought presume that no more than such an allegation is needed).
action (which to me is implied by your $33 figure), and secondly
(although obvious) WRITTEN acknowledgement that DATE of cause
of action cannot MOVE.
Just re-read your sentence.Q1. does the month 5 demanding letter for $33 include the milk supply for months 4 and/or 5 ? You haven't actually quoted the letter as you posit it here. Therefore, all one may legitimately conclude about the letter is that it was mailed (and, you seem to imply, was dated) in the fifth month and says to the customer, "pay us $33".Unless and to the extent (if at all) that it states otherwise (you do not here say), it "includes" whatever sums and months it says it covers.Q2. does the month 6 issued summons claim for $33 include the milk supply for months after month 3 ?
The letter does not state what "months it says it covers".
By my decription it states the "sums" is $33.
So the vital question remains:
does the month 6 issued summons claim for $33 include
the milk supply for months after month 3 ?
What is the assumption, in the case that the demand letter
and summons both don't specify the period of milk delivery
which is being claimed for:
1. vague - hence invalid ?
2. up to the date when the document was served ?
In which case, it's a fixed amount claimed for an increrasing
3. fixed at the first demand letter and corresponding to the
account of month 3 ?
---[snip]--Q3. Is the concept of cause of action applicable ? If the notice of claim stated in/on the summons or in an attached operative pleading says (in substance if not in these words), "defendant owes plaintiff $__ (whatever the "$__" may be) for goods/services sold, delivered, and accepted" the the notion of "cause of action" that is "applicable" is that whichever of those documents makes such a (or a comparable) allegation alleges a "cause of action" that "defendant owes plaintiff $__ (whatever the "$__" may be) for goods/services sold, delivered, and accepted" -- in other words, it NOTIFIES defendant that that is what plaintiff ALLEGES and CLAIMS.
My lay-man's research for "cause of action" shows:
"The court determined that, generally, a cause of action arises when
the material facts on which it is based have been discovered or ought to
have been discovered by the plaintiff, by the exercise of reasonable
I'm sorry, I posed that as a double negative question.Q4. Am I wrong is saying that the cause of action is NOT after month 3's demand letter ? Yes.
Are you saying:
the summons of month 6, without any date specifying when
the last charge was made, by default is claiming for milk up to the
date of summons issue, despite the fact that the amount claimed
corresponds to the accounts and demand letter of month 3 ?
And if so, who is going to pay for the milk consumed during months
4, 5, 6 ?
== Chris Glur.
I tried to post you the transcript of the appeal judgment, but it bounced.
This is an international public forum, and the volume of these threads
could be considered as bad netiquette.
A poster refered me to some Yahoo facility, but I don't do cookies, nor
use standard software.
You have rightly accused me of not providing details.
I have everything on line: affidavits, transcripts ..etc., but to
cut/paste/post would newsgroup police out, because of the VOLUME !