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  • #16
    US Immigration out of control

    Oliver Costich wrote on 10/21/2004 0:58:
    On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:50:55 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]> wrote:
    Mark Mc wrote on 10/20/2004 12:47:
    Below are the FACTS regarding U.S. immigration.
    Repeatedly posting anti-immigrant propaganda doesn't make it facts.Get lost.
    Everything in the post can be found in legitimate studies.
    Links, please...
    Until then, this is all anti-immigrant propaganda.

    -Joe

    Comment


    • #17
      US Immigration out of control

      "Investigator" <[email protected]> wrote in
      news:[email protected] om:
      "Bob" <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote in message news:[email protected] m...
      On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:46:53 +0000, Lottie <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote: >> Not to mention how much money they make on the whole visa dolling >> out issues....bloomin' highway robbery ain't it *l* >And not forgetting the 1,000's of $ in attourney fee's you end up >paying, cos the whole VISA/Green Card system is so ****ed complex! You know a country anyone wnats to go to where it's easy?
      Lot easier to go to Canada, NZ, OZ, SA... all have skills type visa's that are easier to get. -- Posted via http://britishexpats.com
      If that is true, don't you think it's more advisable to go there instead?
      Given what your president has done to the economy, I wish I had done, LOL!

      Comment


      • #18
        US Immigration out of control

        Decreases in European populations threaten Social Security programs there.
        The US program is similarly underfinanced. It would seem that our present
        investment in immigrantion will be a net gain for the future solvency of
        social security.

        Eric


        Comment


        • #19
          US Immigration out of control

          On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:54:48 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>
          wrote:
          Oliver Costich wrote on 10/21/2004 0:58:
          On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:50:55 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]> wrote:
          Mark Mc wrote on 10/20/2004 12:47:>Below are the FACTS regarding U.S. immigration.Repeatedly posting anti-immigrant propaganda doesn't make it facts.Get lost.
          Everything in the post can be found in legitimate studies.
          Links, please...Until then, this is all anti-immigrant propaganda.-Joe

          Look at the work by Borjas and the GAO. You can find the links with
          Google.

          Comment


          • #20
            US Immigration out of control

            On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:14:18 +0000, Bob
            <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote:
            On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:46:53 +0000, Lottie <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote:
            > Not to mention how much money they make on the whole visa dolling> out> issues....bloomin' highway robbery ain't it *l*And not forgetting the 1,000's of $ in attourney fee's you end uppaying, cos the whole VISA/Green Card system is so ****ed complex!
            You know a country anyone wnats to go to where it's easy?
            Lot easier to go to Canada, NZ, OZ, SA...all have skills type visa's that are easier to get.

            Then people should be flocking there instead of here.

            Comment


            • #21
              US Immigration out of control

              On 23 Oct 2004 13:21:57 GMT, Alun <[email protected]> wrote:
              "Investigator" <[email protected]> wrote innews:[email protected] .com:
              "Bob" <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote in message news:[email protected] m...
              > On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:46:53 +0000, Lottie> <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote:>> >> Not to mention how much money they make on the whole visa dolling> >> out issues....bloomin' highway robbery ain't it *l*> >And not forgetting the 1,000's of $ in attourney fee's you end up> >paying, cos the whole VISA/Green Card system is so ****ed complex!>>> You know a country anyone wnats to go to where it's easy? Lot easier to go to Canada, NZ, OZ, SA... all have skills type visa's that are easier to get. -- Posted via http://britishexpats.com
              If that is true, don't you think it's more advisable to go there instead?
              Given what your president has done to the economy, I wish I had done, LOL!

              It's not too late.

              Comment


              • #22
                US Immigration out of control

                On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:42:45 +0000, schlimmdue
                <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote:
                Below are the FACTS regarding U.S. immigration. If you take a few minutes to read this message you'll know more about immigration and what it's costing you than 99% of your fellow citizens. Please copy this information and email it to as many of your friends as possible. Nothing will happen without pressure being put on Congress and the President. Problems Of Massive Immigration And What You Can Do About It. How much immigration is there? The foreign-born population of the U.S. is currently 33 million or 12 percent of the total U.S. population. Approximately 1.5 million immigrants (legal and illegal) settle in the U.S. each year. Population Growth Under current immigration policy, population growth adds the equivalent of a major city the size of Philadelphia every year. The annual arrival of 1.5 million legal and illegal immigrants, coupled with 750,000 annual births to immigrant women, account for the overwhelming majority of U.S. population growth. The U.S population will be 400 million by 2050 (80 million larger than without immigration). Net Cost to Taxpayers The National Research Council estimated immigration is costing U.S. taxpayers between $11 and $22 billion per year. Immigrants tend to be disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages which results in low tax payments. At the same time, they consume government services in areas such as education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care at a high rate, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility. California alone estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants was $3 billion per year. Quality of Life The question that massive immigration presents is less one of space and survival than of quality of life. We suffer from increases in traffic congestion, school overcrowding, loss of natural habitat, destruction of prime farm land, increasing urban sprawl, and the loss of scarce tax dollars being used to support immigrants. After the massive population growth of the last 50 years, the homes of most Americans now are in large urban areas. Each year, because of continued population growth, open spaces get farther and farther out of reach. Increasingly Americans find the "open spaces" so congested they fail to receive the psychological and spiritual refreshment they had sought. After enormous expenditures to restore and preserve the quality of our water, air, eco-systems, and bio-diversity for future generations, there have been great improvements. But largely because there are 80 million more people today flushing toilets, etc, 40% of our lakes and streams still don't meet the fishable and swimmable goal Every day, urban sprawl gobbles up square miles of prime farmland, natural habitat and recreational spaces. Americans are finding all cities becoming more and more like New York City and Los Angeles. Mid-size cities without big-city traffic jams today cannot long escape them. And any smaller cities, towns, and rural areas within 50 miles of the present outskirts of a large city are destined to be swallowed inside the ever-marching sprawl of the big cities. Impact on Urban School Children Since 1976, virtually all the increase in urban student enrollments has been due to the rise in the number of children of immigrants - immigrants who on average don't begin to earn enough money to pay the taxes to cover the education costs of their children. Across America, school overcrowding threatens the education of millions of children. Massive building programs at immense taxpayer costs have not been able to keep up. Immigration, Poverty and Black Americans Poverty in the U.S. is increasingly being caused by immigration policy. Immigration increases the supply of labor, reduces wages and makes jobs more scarce for natives. Job competition between immigrants and natives is especially fierce at the bottom of the labor market, because so many immigrants are poorly educated, low-skilled / low-wage earners. Black Americans are particularly hard hit since a large portion of their population is in competition for these lower wage jobs. Immigrant Entrepreneurs Entrepreneurship of immigrant small businessmen supposedly recharges our nation's creative spirit. Unfortunately, research shows that while immigrants were once significantly more entrepreneurial than natives, that is no longer true. Illegal Immigration Estimates differ but the Census 2000 results indicated that 700,000 to 800,000 illegal aliens settle in the U.S. each year, with an estimated 8-11 million illegal aliens currently living in the United States. That total does not include the millions of illegal aliens who were awarded amnesty by the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 and several other laws. The INS estimates that 60 percent of illegal residents entered the United States by sneaking across the border, and the remaining 40 percent entered legally but overstayed their visas. The typical Mexican worker earns one-tenth his American counterpart and numerous American businesses are willing to hire cheap, compliant labor from abroad; such businesses are seldom punished because our country lacks a viable system to verify new hires' work eligibility. English as our national language Heard this lately?. "Press "1" if you speak English." Ten years ago you never heard that phrase. In the not too distant future you or your children may be hearingÖ"Press "1" if you speak Spanish". What has Congress done about this problem? Virtually every major poll that has been conducted in the past decade finds that a majority of Americans support lower immigration numbers. However, Congress seems to have little interest in reducing immigration. A recent national poll by the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations found a huge gap between the opinions of the American people on immigration and those of their leaders. The poll found that 60 percent of the public regards the present level of immigration to be a "critical threat to the vital interests of the United States," compared to only 14 percent of the nation's leadership. Since 1986, Congress has passed 7 amnesty laws for illegal aliens. [What is Amnesty? Amnesties are laws which forgive the breaking of immigration laws and make it possible for illegal aliens to live permanently in the United States. Amnesties represent a system of federal rewards and assistance for illegal migrants, and they entice an even greater number of illegal migrants.] Congress has declined to provide the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) with adequate resources to enforce current immigration laws. They have even discouraged enforcement of the laws by the INS. Still pending as the 108th Congress opens this month are the recommendations of the bi-partisan U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform to halt chain migration and the visa lottery and to seriously enforce laws against illegal aliens already in the U.S.. Congress voted in 1996 to consider those actions in a later session. We're still waiting. Want to know about the voting record of your Senator or Congressman on these issues? Go to this website: - http://grades.betterimmigration.com/index.php3 What needs to be done? Change Immigration Laws: We need to change our immigration laws to permit only a fraction of the current level of legal immigration. Enforce Immigration Laws at Employment Sites: Without enforcement at employment sites in the U.S. there is no hope of controlling illegal immigration. Instead of spending more and more dollars to support immigrants we should be spending more money to enforce immigration laws. Enforce Immigration Laws at Our Borders: The standard response to illegal immigration has been increased border enforcement. And, in fact, such tightening of the border is long overdue. Please call your Senators' and Congressman and demand action (phone numbers in attached document). Please do it now! And forward this message to all of your friends. Thank you.
                Don't you know that America is the land of the golden opportunities, andthe land of immigration!!!A long time ago, your ancestors came to this counrty just like people donow, so basically your an immigrant too, if you are not a NativeAmerican!
                A few things have changed since then don't you think? I'm weary of
                this specious argument.
                Think about that before you post these racist comments!
                Race card alert.

                Comment


                • #23
                  US Immigration out of control

                  Oliver Costich wrote on 10/23/2004 12:33:
                  On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:54:48 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]> wrote:
                  Oliver Costich wrote on 10/21/2004 0:58:
                  On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:50:55 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>wrote:>Mark Mc wrote on 10/20/2004 12:47:>>>>>Below are the FACTS regarding U.S. immigration.>>Repeatedly posting anti-immigrant propaganda doesn't make it facts.>Get lost.Everything in the post can be found in legitimate studies.
                  Links, please...Until then, this is all anti-immigrant propaganda.-Joe
                  Look at the work by Borjas and the GAO. You can find the links with Google.
                  I have looked at Borjas' work. And the things posted in this anti-immigrant
                  diatribe can not be found there...
                  Besides, you were the one claiming that this can be found in studies, so
                  I don't see a need to search for that myself. Your claim, your proof...

                  -Joe

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    US Immigration out of control

                    On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:32:31 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>
                    wrote:
                    Oliver Costich wrote on 10/23/2004 12:33:
                    On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:54:48 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]> wrote:
                    Oliver Costich wrote on 10/21/2004 0:58:>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:50:55 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>>wrote:>>>>>Mark Mc wrote on 10/20/2004 12:47:>>>>>>>>>Below are the FACTS regarding U.S. immigration.>>>>Repeatedly posting anti-immigrant propaganda doesn't make it facts.>>Get lost.>>>>Everything in the post can be found in legitimate studies.Links, please...Until then, this is all anti-immigrant propaganda.-Joe
                    Look at the work by Borjas and the GAO. You can find the links with Google.
                    I have looked at Borjas' work. And the things posted in this anti-immigrantdiatribe can not be found there...
                    First it was racist, now it's only anti-immigration. Actually it's
                    neither. The only mention in the entire piece of
                    race/ethnicity/nationality is of the income levels of Mexican
                    immigrants. As for anti-immigrant, it calls for the restriction of
                    immigration from current levels, which are very high when you consider
                    illegal immigration in the mix. That immigration is skewed toward the
                    unkilled and uneducated is the problem, because it's no more than
                    importing cheap labor to increase profits for employers while the
                    socail costs of the labor are paid by all taxpayers.

                    Ther is nothing wrong or evil about immigration. My wife is an
                    immigrant and Hispanic. She does however have two masters degrees in
                    technical areas. Immigration does need to be restricted to what is
                    good for the country.
                    Besides, you were the one claiming that this can be found in studies, soI don't see a need to search for that myself. Your claim, your proof...
                    So don't. Continue to play the race card.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      US Immigration out of control

                      On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 12:14:51 -0700, "Eric and Catherine Back"
                      <[email protected]> wrote:
                      Decreases in European populations threaten Social Security programs there.The US program is similarly underfinanced. It would seem that our presentinvestment in immigrantion will be a net gain for the future solvency ofsocial security.Eric

                      Only under one assumption, which is false, at least for now. A large
                      proportion of immigrants are low income and pay little into social
                      security. Many illegals pay nothing by working off the books.

                      In addition, their demand on social services places additional burden
                      on the tax base. Since the government doesn't really segregate social
                      security funds from other tax revenues, the situation gets even worse.
                      Money that could have been used to strengthen social security is
                      drained off for other social sevices. For example, 25% of Californians
                      are on Medical (Medicaid), exacerbating the problems with the
                      Medicare/Medicaid system.

                      Sheer population increase alone isn't going to fix anything. It
                      strains the systems that supply water and energy and creates numerous
                      environmemtal problems. Thirty years ago, we were told that we needed
                      to aim for zero population growth in order to maintain our standard of
                      living without damaging the environment. WE were well on the way until
                      the recent immigration wave. If sheer numbers are the answer,
                      Americans are capable of breeding. The quality of any population
                      increase has to also be considered, and that's why immigration policy
                      has to be used to assure that, rather than to supply an endless source
                      of cheap labor.

                      The issue isn't immigration or not, but what kind of immigration.


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        US Immigration out of control

                        Oliver Costich wrote on 10/24/2004 9:08:
                        On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:32:31 -0700, Joachim Feise <me[email protected]> wrote:
                        Oliver Costich wrote on 10/23/2004 12:33:
                        On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:54:48 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>wrote:>Oliver Costich wrote on 10/21/2004 0:58:>>>>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:50:55 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>>>wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>Mark Mc wrote on 10/20/2004 12:47:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Below are the FACTS regarding U.S. immigration.>>>>>>Repeatedly posting anti-immigrant propaganda doesn't make it facts.>>>Get lost.>>>>>>>>Everything in the post can be found in legitimate studies.>>Links, please...>Until then, this is all anti-immigrant propaganda.>>-JoeLook at the work by Borjas and the GAO. You can find the links withGoogle.
                        I have looked at Borjas' work. And the things posted in this anti-immigrantdiatribe can not be found there...
                        First it was racist, now it's only anti-immigration.
                        Huh? I said this piece was anti-immigrant propaganda.
                        And since you can't find anything to refute that, you are all of a sudden
                        trying to play the race card...
                        Nice try, but won't work with me...

                        -Joe

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          US Immigration out of control

                          Oliver Costich wrote on 10/24/2004 9:08:
                          On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:32:31 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]> wrote:
                          Oliver Costich wrote on 10/23/2004 12:33:>On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:54:48 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>>wrote:>>Oliver Costich wrote on 10/21/2004 0:58:>>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:50:55 -0700, Joachim Feise>>><[email protected]>>>>wrote:>>>>Mark Mc wrote on 10/20/2004 12:47:>>>>>Below are the FACTS regarding U.S. immigration.>>>>Repeatedly posting anti-immigrant propaganda doesn't make it>>>>facts.>>>>Get lost.>>>Everything in the post can be found in legitimate studies.>>Links, please...>>Until then, this is all anti-immigrant propaganda.>>-Joe>Look at the work by Borjas and the GAO. You can find the links with>Google.I have looked at Borjas' work. And the things posted in this anti-immigrantdiatribe can not be found there...
                          First it was racist, now it's only anti-immigration.
                          Huh? I said this piece was anti-immigrant propaganda. And since you can't find anything to refute that, you are all of a sudden trying to play the race card... Nice try, but won't work with me... -Joe
                          Can you just clarify your position a little for me?

                          You are o.k with immigration of high skilled persons holding advanced
                          degrees etc (such as your wife). I assume as they add valuable resource
                          and tax dollars.

                          You have issue with illegal immigration and the amount of 'low skill'
                          legal immigrants. They represent a drain on jobs and SS hand outs.

                          I tend to agree in principle, but it seems far more complex than you
                          make out. My questions are,

                          1. If you want high skilled people, what's your position on allowing
                          their families to immigrate with them? There are potentially several
                          direct family members per 'desired' immigrant?

                          2. Whets your view on the argument that immigrants end up doing the jobs
                          that 'Americans' don't want? Donít you think immigrants work for
                          less? Making things cheaper for consumer/customer?

                          3. If you tighten up more on who can immigrate legally won't you in
                          fact run the risk of ending up with even more illegal and even less
                          tax dollars?

                          You seem to respond to questions and itís not a total insult tirade so
                          look forward to your reply. I have a lot of other questions too, just
                          want to clarify, are you proposing a solution? Or merely pointing out a
                          problem. Dealing with large populations of 'immigrants' is a very
                          intricate problem (just look at few former leaders of nations.......),
                          maybe thatís why the U.S government is treading carefully?

                          --
                          Posted via http://britishexpats.com

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            US Immigration out of control

                            Oliver Costich <[email protected]> wrote in
                            news:[email protected]:
                            On 23 Oct 2004 13:21:57 GMT, Alun <[email protected]> wrote:
                            "Investigator" <[email protected]> wrote innews:[email protected] .com:
                            "Bob" <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote in message news:[email protected] m...>>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:46:53 +0000, Lottie>> <[email protected]_expats.com> wrote:>>>> >> Not to mention how much money they make on the whole visa>> >> dolling out issues....bloomin' highway robbery ain't it *l*>> >And not forgetting the 1,000's of $ in attourney fee's you end up>> >paying, cos the whole VISA/Green Card system is so ****ed complex!>>>>>> You know a country anyone wnats to go to where it's easy?>> Lot easier to go to Canada, NZ, OZ, SA...> all have skills type visa's that are easier to get.>> --> Posted via http://britishexpats.com If that is true, don't you think it's more advisable to go there instead?
                            Given what your president has done to the economy, I wish I had done,LOL!
                            It's not too late.
                            To elect Kerry? I suggest you do that.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              US Immigration out of control

                              Oliver Costich <[email protected]> wrote in
                              news:[email protected]:
                              On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 12:14:51 -0700, "Eric and Catherine Back" <[email protected]> wrote:
                              Decreases in European populations threaten Social Security programsthere. The US program is similarly underfinanced. It would seem thatour present investment in immigrantion will be a net gain for thefuture solvency of social security.Eric
                              Only under one assumption, which is false, at least for now. A large proportion of immigrants are low income and pay little into social security. Many illegals pay nothing by working off the books. In addition, their demand on social services places additional burden on the tax base. Since the government doesn't really segregate social security funds from other tax revenues, the situation gets even worse. Money that could have been used to strengthen social security is drained off for other social sevices. For example, 25% of Californians are on Medical (Medicaid), exacerbating the problems with the Medicare/Medicaid system. Sheer population increase alone isn't going to fix anything. It strains the systems that supply water and energy and creates numerous environmemtal problems. Thirty years ago, we were told that we needed to aim for zero population growth in order to maintain our standard of living without damaging the environment. WE were well on the way until the recent immigration wave. If sheer numbers are the answer, Americans are capable of breeding. The quality of any population increase has to also be considered, and that's why immigration policy has to be used to assure that, rather than to supply an endless source of cheap labor. The issue isn't immigration or not, but what kind of immigration.
                              My visa and later my immigration preference required a college degree, and
                              yet jobs in my field are still being exported to India to be done there.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                US Immigration out of control

                                On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:01:34 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>
                                wrote:
                                Oliver Costich wrote on 10/24/2004 9:08:
                                On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:32:31 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]> wrote:
                                Oliver Costich wrote on 10/23/2004 12:33:>On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:54:48 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>>wrote:>>>>>Oliver Costich wrote on 10/21/2004 0:58:>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:50:55 -0700, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>>>>wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mark Mc wrote on 10/20/2004 12:47:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Below are the FACTS regarding U.S. immigration.>>>>>>>>Repeatedly posting anti-immigrant propaganda doesn't make it facts.>>>>Get lost.>>>>>>>>>>>>Everything in the post can be found in legitimate studies.>>>>Links, please...>>Until then, this is all anti-immigrant propaganda.>>>>-Joe>>>>Look at the work by Borjas and the GAO. You can find the links with>Google.I have looked at Borjas' work. And the things posted in this anti-immigrantdiatribe can not be found there...
                                First it was racist, now it's only anti-immigration.
                                Huh? I said this piece was anti-immigrant propaganda.
                                Sooy, my mistake.
                                And since you can't find anything to refute that, you are all of a suddentrying to play the race card...
                                What's to refute? Importing hoards of cheap labor isn't good for the
                                taxpaters or the environment. Immigrants with needed skills and
                                education are an asset.
                                Nice try, but won't work with me...
                                I'm heartbroken.
                                -Joe

                                Comment

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