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  • #91
    To Divorce or Not


    "Doug Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    I think there are certain people who after living together for a long time, think they _should_ get married, and then get married from that sense. So it isn't living together that is the problem, the problem is the idea in some people's heads that living together _ought_ to lead to marriage.
    I posted recently on That Other Newsgroup about a study looking at the
    effect of (among other things) length of courtship on marital success.
    Couples that dated for about 2 years were the most successful, but couples
    who dated less than 18 months had more successful marriages than couples who
    dated for 3 years or more. So one theory (possibly in complement with other
    factors) I would propose is that living together (like dating for a long
    time) maybe creates such a sense of familiarity and routine that you
    overlook the "red flags" that may have bothered you earlier in the
    relationship. Rather than making the bad stuff more obvious, maybe the
    constant exposure of living together dampens our sensitivity to those
    problems?


    Comment


    • #92
      To Divorce or Not

      "DrLith" <[email protected]> writes:
      "Doug Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
      I think there are certain people who after living together for a long time, think they _should_ get married, and then get married from that sense. So it isn't living together that is the problem, the problem is the idea in some people's heads that living together _ought_ to lead to marriage.
      I posted recently on That Other Newsgroup about a study looking at the effect of (among other things) length of courtship on marital success. Couples that dated for about 2 years were the most successful, but couples who dated less than 18 months had more successful marriages than couples who dated for 3 years or more. So one theory (possibly in complement with other factors) I would propose is that living together (like dating for a long time) maybe creates such a sense of familiarity and routine that you overlook the "red flags" that may have bothered you earlier in the relationship. Rather than making the bad stuff more obvious, maybe the constant exposure of living together dampens our sensitivity to those problems?
      Yeah, that is a similar situation, isn't it?

      Could it also be the following:

      -if you are impulsive you get married too fast.

      -if you like the person a lot, but aren't sure, you wait a long
      time, but marry anyway provided nothing really alarming happens.
      (so, maybe it isn't that you've stopped being bothered by stuff that
      used to bother you - maybe you were just _never_ that enthusiastic,
      but were too ignorant to realize that not being enthusiastic should
      be alarming in itself.)

      And in both cases, the results average less than optimally.

      Doug

      Comment


      • #93
        To Divorce or Not

        "DrLith" <[email protected]> writes:
        "Doug Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
        I think there are certain people who after living together for a long time, think they _should_ get married, and then get married from that sense. So it isn't living together that is the problem, the problem is the idea in some people's heads that living together _ought_ to lead to marriage.
        I posted recently on That Other Newsgroup about a study looking at the effect of (among other things) length of courtship on marital success. Couples that dated for about 2 years were the most successful, but couples who dated less than 18 months had more successful marriages than couples who dated for 3 years or more. So one theory (possibly in complement with other factors) I would propose is that living together (like dating for a long time) maybe creates such a sense of familiarity and routine that you overlook the "red flags" that may have bothered you earlier in the relationship. Rather than making the bad stuff more obvious, maybe the constant exposure of living together dampens our sensitivity to those problems?
        Yeah, that is a similar situation, isn't it?

        Could it also be the following:

        -if you are impulsive you get married too fast.

        -if you like the person a lot, but aren't sure, you wait a long
        time, but marry anyway provided nothing really alarming happens.
        (so, maybe it isn't that you've stopped being bothered by stuff that
        used to bother you - maybe you were just _never_ that enthusiastic,
        but were too ignorant to realize that not being enthusiastic should
        be alarming in itself.)

        And in both cases, the results average less than optimally.

        Doug

        Comment


        • #94
          To Divorce or Not

          Joy wrote:
          "Supercalifragil Isticexpialidocius" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
          'Keep in mind I have a religious family so living together was a no no(which now I realize would of been great to "test" each other).'Actually, studies prove that there is a higher chance of divorce forthose who lived together first.But they don't show that living together has any causative effect.Reply : Higher divorce rates have been linked to Shacking Up beforehand; plus...there are many disadvantages/repercussions to cohabitating ---One only need watch Judge Judy on TV to see that .
          What you are missing is that the kind of people who would cohabit may also be the kind of people who are more likely to divorce. It isn't that cohabiting causes divorce, it is that cohabiting and divorce often attract the same type of personality.
          True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show that
          cohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thought it
          would. So the response about the statistics was relevant.

          Comment


          • #95
            To Divorce or Not

            Joy wrote:
            "Supercalifragil Isticexpialidocius" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
            'Keep in mind I have a religious family so living together was a no no(which now I realize would of been great to "test" each other).'Actually, studies prove that there is a higher chance of divorce forthose who lived together first.But they don't show that living together has any causative effect.Reply : Higher divorce rates have been linked to Shacking Up beforehand; plus...there are many disadvantages/repercussions to cohabitating ---One only need watch Judge Judy on TV to see that .
            What you are missing is that the kind of people who would cohabit may also be the kind of people who are more likely to divorce. It isn't that cohabiting causes divorce, it is that cohabiting and divorce often attract the same type of personality.
            True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show that
            cohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thought it
            would. So the response about the statistics was relevant.

            Comment


            • #96
              To Divorce or Not

              Ellie <[email protected]> writes:
              Joy wrote:
              "Supercalifragil Isticexpialidocius" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
              'Keep in mind I have a religious family so living together was a no no(which now I realize would of been great to "test" each other).'Actually, studies prove that there is a higher chance of divorce forthose who lived together first.But they don't show that living together has any causative effect.Reply : Higher divorce rates have been linked to Shacking Up beforehand; plus...there are many disadvantages/repercussions to cohabitating ---One only need watch Judge Judy on TV to see that .
              What you are missing is that the kind of people who would cohabit may also be the kind of people who are more likely to divorce. It isn't that cohabiting causes divorce, it is that cohabiting and divorce often attract the same type of personality.
              True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show that cohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thought it would. So the response about the statistics was relevant.
              You have it backwards. The statistics don't show that cohabitation
              helps. (That is different from the positive claim you are making - you
              are claiming they show cohabitation doesn't help. In order to show
              what you said they show, they would have needed to do properly
              controlled studies. Instead, in the absence of sensibly controlled
              studies, the statistics show what such statistics show all too often -
              nothing.)

              In the case of the OP, cohabition _might_ have helped. If they had
              decided to live together in order to decide if they wanted to be
              married, it might have helped.

              On the other hand, if they did what I suspect most people who live
              together and then get married do (they fall into living together, and
              then decide to get married without giving it much more thought), then
              no, I bet it wouldn't have helped.


              Doug

              Comment


              • #97
                To Divorce or Not

                Ellie <[email protected]> writes:
                Joy wrote:
                "Supercalifragil Isticexpialidocius" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                'Keep in mind I have a religious family so living together was a no no(which now I realize would of been great to "test" each other).'Actually, studies prove that there is a higher chance of divorce forthose who lived together first.But they don't show that living together has any causative effect.Reply : Higher divorce rates have been linked to Shacking Up beforehand; plus...there are many disadvantages/repercussions to cohabitating ---One only need watch Judge Judy on TV to see that .
                What you are missing is that the kind of people who would cohabit may also be the kind of people who are more likely to divorce. It isn't that cohabiting causes divorce, it is that cohabiting and divorce often attract the same type of personality.
                True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show that cohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thought it would. So the response about the statistics was relevant.
                You have it backwards. The statistics don't show that cohabitation
                helps. (That is different from the positive claim you are making - you
                are claiming they show cohabitation doesn't help. In order to show
                what you said they show, they would have needed to do properly
                controlled studies. Instead, in the absence of sensibly controlled
                studies, the statistics show what such statistics show all too often -
                nothing.)

                In the case of the OP, cohabition _might_ have helped. If they had
                decided to live together in order to decide if they wanted to be
                married, it might have helped.

                On the other hand, if they did what I suspect most people who live
                together and then get married do (they fall into living together, and
                then decide to get married without giving it much more thought), then
                no, I bet it wouldn't have helped.


                Doug

                Comment


                • #98
                  To Divorce or Not

                  Doug Anderson wrote:
                  Ellie <[email protected]> writes:
                  True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show thatcohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thoughtit would. So the response about the statistics was relevant. You have it backwards. The statistics don't show that cohabitation helps.
                  I don't know how that makes what I said *backwards*.
                  (That is different from the positive claim you are making - you are claiming they show cohabitation doesn't help. In order to show what you said they show, they would have needed to do properly controlled studies. Instead, in the absence of sensibly controlled studies, the statistics show what such statistics show all too often - nothing.)
                  I wasn't addressing the validity of the statistics. Though it may not
                  show anything of significance, there is some data that suggests that
                  divorce rate among those who cohabited is higher, is there not? The OP
                  said that it would have been great if they could've tested living
                  together first. In their individual case it may or may not have helped
                  (as you said). Obviously, even the most valid statistics don't
                  necessarily apply to an individual case. But as quoting statistics go,
                  that *response* was not invalid to that *claim*!


                  Comment


                  • #99
                    To Divorce or Not

                    Doug Anderson wrote:
                    Ellie <[email protected]> writes:
                    True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show thatcohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thoughtit would. So the response about the statistics was relevant. You have it backwards. The statistics don't show that cohabitation helps.
                    I don't know how that makes what I said *backwards*.
                    (That is different from the positive claim you are making - you are claiming they show cohabitation doesn't help. In order to show what you said they show, they would have needed to do properly controlled studies. Instead, in the absence of sensibly controlled studies, the statistics show what such statistics show all too often - nothing.)
                    I wasn't addressing the validity of the statistics. Though it may not
                    show anything of significance, there is some data that suggests that
                    divorce rate among those who cohabited is higher, is there not? The OP
                    said that it would have been great if they could've tested living
                    together first. In their individual case it may or may not have helped
                    (as you said). Obviously, even the most valid statistics don't
                    necessarily apply to an individual case. But as quoting statistics go,
                    that *response* was not invalid to that *claim*!


                    Comment


                    • To Divorce or Not

                      Ellie <[email protected]> writes:
                      Doug Anderson wrote:
                      Ellie <[email protected]> writes:True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show thatcohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thoughtit would. So the response about the statistics was relevant. You have it backwards. The statistics don't show that cohabitation helps.
                      I don't know how that makes what I said *backwards*.
                      (That is different from the positive claim you are making - you are claiming they show cohabitation doesn't help. In order to show what you said they show, they would have needed to do properly controlled studies. Instead, in the absence of sensibly controlled studies, the statistics show what such statistics show all too often - nothing.)
                      I wasn't addressing the validity of the statistics. Though it may not show anything of significance, there is some data that suggests that divorce rate among those who cohabited is higher, is there not? The OP said that it would have been great if they could've tested living together first. In their individual case it may or may not have helped (as you said). Obviously, even the most valid statistics don't necessarily apply to an individual case. But as quoting statistics go, that *response* was not invalid to that *claim*!
                      I won't repeat my post. But I claim that response _was_ invalid to
                      that claim for the reasons I gave.


                      Comment


                      • To Divorce or Not

                        Ellie <[email protected]> writes:
                        Doug Anderson wrote:
                        Ellie <[email protected]> writes:True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show thatcohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thoughtit would. So the response about the statistics was relevant. You have it backwards. The statistics don't show that cohabitation helps.
                        I don't know how that makes what I said *backwards*.
                        (That is different from the positive claim you are making - you are claiming they show cohabitation doesn't help. In order to show what you said they show, they would have needed to do properly controlled studies. Instead, in the absence of sensibly controlled studies, the statistics show what such statistics show all too often - nothing.)
                        I wasn't addressing the validity of the statistics. Though it may not show anything of significance, there is some data that suggests that divorce rate among those who cohabited is higher, is there not? The OP said that it would have been great if they could've tested living together first. In their individual case it may or may not have helped (as you said). Obviously, even the most valid statistics don't necessarily apply to an individual case. But as quoting statistics go, that *response* was not invalid to that *claim*!
                        I won't repeat my post. But I claim that response _was_ invalid to
                        that claim for the reasons I gave.


                        Comment


                        • To Divorce or Not

                          Ellie <[email protected]> writes:
                          Doug Anderson wrote:
                          Ellie <[email protected]> writes:True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show thatcohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thoughtit would. So the response about the statistics was relevant. You have it backwards. The statistics don't show that cohabitation helps.
                          I don't know how that makes what I said *backwards*.
                          Sorry - I missed this in my other response. And I mistyped what I meant.

                          You said
                          The statistics show that cohabitation does not necessarily help.

                          Actually what is true is that
                          The statistics dont' show that cohabitation helps.

                          What you said was that the statistics show something negative.

                          What is actually true is that the statistics fail to show something
                          positive.

                          Comment


                          • To Divorce or Not

                            Ellie <[email protected]> writes:
                            Doug Anderson wrote:
                            Ellie <[email protected]> writes:True that studies don't show causative effect, but they show thatcohabitation does not necessarily help a marriage - as the OP thoughtit would. So the response about the statistics was relevant. You have it backwards. The statistics don't show that cohabitation helps.
                            I don't know how that makes what I said *backwards*.
                            Sorry - I missed this in my other response. And I mistyped what I meant.

                            You said
                            The statistics show that cohabitation does not necessarily help.

                            Actually what is true is that
                            The statistics dont' show that cohabitation helps.

                            What you said was that the statistics show something negative.

                            What is actually true is that the statistics fail to show something
                            positive.

                            Comment


                            • To Divorce or Not

                              On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:14:32 -0700, "Jason" <[email protected]> wrote:
                              To top things off, we are trying to have kids. Should I end it in divorcenow and save our kids from having to go through it, or keep holding ontrying to start a family and hoping that somehow I will be able to love her?
                              Why are you trying to have children with this woman even you're not
                              sure you love her anymore and/or want to remain married to her?
                              Doesn't logic and common sense tell you that right now would be the
                              WORST TIME for you to consider having children with this woman?
                              You're marriage is on very shaky ground, you're not sure you want to
                              even remain married to this woman--hell, you don't even really LOVE
                              this woman--yet you are trying to have children with her?

                              ARE YOU UTTERLY INSANE?

                              Crap like this make me just so angry! Children should only be brought
                              into a marriage if both partners are in love with one another & feel
                              ready to do so. They should NOT be brought into a marriage like
                              yours! Having children with this woman will not somehow magically
                              save your marriage and cause you to fall in love (again) with your
                              wife. What it will do is cause more stress for both of you and a hell
                              of a lot more work, strain, & grief since that is what you are
                              experiencing in your marriage right now.

                              Stop trying to have a baby and do not try to have a baby with ANYONE
                              until you grow up some more and figure out what it is you want from
                              life.


                              -----
                              Kim/Dreamspinner3
                              Visit My Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/

                              Comment


                              • To Divorce or Not

                                On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:14:32 -0700, "Jason" <[email protected]> wrote:
                                To top things off, we are trying to have kids. Should I end it in divorcenow and save our kids from having to go through it, or keep holding ontrying to start a family and hoping that somehow I will be able to love her?
                                Why are you trying to have children with this woman even you're not
                                sure you love her anymore and/or want to remain married to her?
                                Doesn't logic and common sense tell you that right now would be the
                                WORST TIME for you to consider having children with this woman?
                                You're marriage is on very shaky ground, you're not sure you want to
                                even remain married to this woman--hell, you don't even really LOVE
                                this woman--yet you are trying to have children with her?

                                ARE YOU UTTERLY INSANE?

                                Crap like this make me just so angry! Children should only be brought
                                into a marriage if both partners are in love with one another & feel
                                ready to do so. They should NOT be brought into a marriage like
                                yours! Having children with this woman will not somehow magically
                                save your marriage and cause you to fall in love (again) with your
                                wife. What it will do is cause more stress for both of you and a hell
                                of a lot more work, strain, & grief since that is what you are
                                experiencing in your marriage right now.

                                Stop trying to have a baby and do not try to have a baby with ANYONE
                                until you grow up some more and figure out what it is you want from
                                life.


                                -----
                                Kim/Dreamspinner3
                                Visit My Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/

                                Comment

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