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  • #16
    Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

    On 25 Feb 2005 17:40:34 -0800, Doug Anderson
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes: (snip)
    But this doesn't alter my opinion on feeding tubes for unconcious people.
    What about feeding tubes for the brain dead?
    ## Pope's Pronouncement on Feeding Tubes Stuns Catholic Hospitals Statement from Barbara Coombs Lee, President of Compassion in Dying Federation: On March 16 the Vatican released an opinion that feeding tubes are not medical therapy and cannot be withheld from a permanently unconscious person.
    Quite apart from the value of the pope's medical opinions, what is the difference between being "permanently unconscious" and being a "vegetable" in common parlance?
    Brain dead people generally can't breathe on their own.

    -Tony

    --
    "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
    to fertilize your lawn!"
    Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
    Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

    Comment


    • #17
      Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

      On 25 Feb 2005 17:40:34 -0800, Doug Anderson
      <[email protected]> wrote:
      Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes: (snip)
      But this doesn't alter my opinion on feeding tubes for unconcious people.
      What about feeding tubes for the brain dead?
      ## Pope's Pronouncement on Feeding Tubes Stuns Catholic Hospitals Statement from Barbara Coombs Lee, President of Compassion in Dying Federation: On March 16 the Vatican released an opinion that feeding tubes are not medical therapy and cannot be withheld from a permanently unconscious person.
      Quite apart from the value of the pope's medical opinions, what is the difference between being "permanently unconscious" and being a "vegetable" in common parlance?
      Brain dead people generally can't breathe on their own.

      -Tony

      --
      "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
      to fertilize your lawn!"
      Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
      Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

      Comment


      • #18
        Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)


        "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
        news:[email protected]
        On 25 Feb 2005 17:40:34 -0800, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
        Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes: (snip)
        But this doesn't alter my opinion on feeding tubes for unconcious people.
        What about feeding tubes for the brain dead?
        So what if somebody has legally with the proper witnessess and notarization
        filled out a form specifing clearly in black and white that, if they should
        every be in an irreversible coma or permanent vegetative state in which
        their physician has determined there there would be no recovery, medical
        treatment should be withheld or withdrawn - specifically authorizing the
        withholding or withdrawal of artificially provided food, water, or other
        nourishment or fluids? What would be your opinion on it in that case?



        Comment


        • #19
          Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)


          "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
          news:[email protected]
          On 25 Feb 2005 17:40:34 -0800, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
          Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes: (snip)
          But this doesn't alter my opinion on feeding tubes for unconcious people.
          What about feeding tubes for the brain dead?
          So what if somebody has legally with the proper witnessess and notarization
          filled out a form specifing clearly in black and white that, if they should
          every be in an irreversible coma or permanent vegetative state in which
          their physician has determined there there would be no recovery, medical
          treatment should be withheld or withdrawn - specifically authorizing the
          withholding or withdrawal of artificially provided food, water, or other
          nourishment or fluids? What would be your opinion on it in that case?



          Comment


          • #20
            Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)


            "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
            news:[email protected]
            Brain dead people generally can't breathe on their own.
            The "breathing center" of the brain is located in the medulla oblongata. The
            medulla oblongata itself can still be regulating inspiration without any
            higher brain activity, but this is involuntary breathing and not under
            Teri's control.

            Jess


            Comment


            • #21
              Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)


              "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
              news:[email protected]
              Brain dead people generally can't breathe on their own.
              The "breathing center" of the brain is located in the medulla oblongata. The
              medulla oblongata itself can still be regulating inspiration without any
              higher brain activity, but this is involuntary breathing and not under
              Teri's control.

              Jess


              Comment


              • #22
                Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
                On 25 Feb 2005 17:40:34 -0800, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
                Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes: (snip)
                But this doesn't alter my opinion on feeding tubes for unconcious people.
                What about feeding tubes for the brain dead?
                ## Pope's Pronouncement on Feeding Tubes Stuns Catholic Hospitals Statement from Barbara Coombs Lee, President of Compassion in Dying Federation: On March 16 the Vatican released an opinion that feeding tubes are not medical therapy and cannot be withheld from a permanently unconscious person.
                Quite apart from the value of the pope's medical opinions, what is the difference between being "permanently unconscious" and being a "vegetable" in common parlance?
                Brain dead people generally can't breathe on their own.
                Perhaps. But that wasn't what I asked.

                And you brought up "brain dead," not me. I'm not sure it is relevant
                here, since I don't know that Schiavo has been declared "brain dead"
                (I suspect she hasn't), nor is it clear to me what the definition of
                "brain dead" is. So I think you are just muddying the water.


                I think the big issue here isn't about Schiavo. The big issue is one
                of medical ethics in general. Tony would have us "not play god" (or
                maybe what he really means is "not play pope").

                I think when someone says that, they are objecting to making medical
                decisions that may determine life or death. But that horse is
                irretrievably gone. Medicine is complex, and decisions get made every
                day that determine life or death. Furthermore, this is unavoidable.
                If you attempt to refuse to make the decision, that is a decision too,
                and also has a life or death effect. (My ethical decision here would
                result in saving many more lives: let Schiavo die, and use the
                resources that would have paid for continued care for her to supply IV
                fluids to babies dying of diarrhea in the third world. Cheap,
                related, and life-saving.)

                100 years ago, Schiavo would have died. As a society we've
                effectively made the decision to develop and use the technologies that
                have kept her breathing and kept her heart beating for 15 years in
                spite of the fact that her mind is gone. That is "playing god" too.

                Of course life-and-death decisions aren't limited to medicine. We (in
                the U.S.) consider it OK to execute people. We consider it OK to
                start a war costing tens of thousands of lives for psychological
                reasons.

                So I find it grossly ironic that some argue against doing the right
                thing for Schiavo because men shouldn't be making decisions like this.
                (By the way, these aren't the Schindler's arguments. They hold onto
                misplaced hope that their daughter is capable of recovery, and that is
                _their_ argument. Well, that and libeling their son-in-law.)

                Doug

                Comment


                • #23
                  Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                  Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
                  On 25 Feb 2005 17:40:34 -0800, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
                  Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes: (snip)
                  But this doesn't alter my opinion on feeding tubes for unconcious people.
                  What about feeding tubes for the brain dead?
                  ## Pope's Pronouncement on Feeding Tubes Stuns Catholic Hospitals Statement from Barbara Coombs Lee, President of Compassion in Dying Federation: On March 16 the Vatican released an opinion that feeding tubes are not medical therapy and cannot be withheld from a permanently unconscious person.
                  Quite apart from the value of the pope's medical opinions, what is the difference between being "permanently unconscious" and being a "vegetable" in common parlance?
                  Brain dead people generally can't breathe on their own.
                  Perhaps. But that wasn't what I asked.

                  And you brought up "brain dead," not me. I'm not sure it is relevant
                  here, since I don't know that Schiavo has been declared "brain dead"
                  (I suspect she hasn't), nor is it clear to me what the definition of
                  "brain dead" is. So I think you are just muddying the water.


                  I think the big issue here isn't about Schiavo. The big issue is one
                  of medical ethics in general. Tony would have us "not play god" (or
                  maybe what he really means is "not play pope").

                  I think when someone says that, they are objecting to making medical
                  decisions that may determine life or death. But that horse is
                  irretrievably gone. Medicine is complex, and decisions get made every
                  day that determine life or death. Furthermore, this is unavoidable.
                  If you attempt to refuse to make the decision, that is a decision too,
                  and also has a life or death effect. (My ethical decision here would
                  result in saving many more lives: let Schiavo die, and use the
                  resources that would have paid for continued care for her to supply IV
                  fluids to babies dying of diarrhea in the third world. Cheap,
                  related, and life-saving.)

                  100 years ago, Schiavo would have died. As a society we've
                  effectively made the decision to develop and use the technologies that
                  have kept her breathing and kept her heart beating for 15 years in
                  spite of the fact that her mind is gone. That is "playing god" too.

                  Of course life-and-death decisions aren't limited to medicine. We (in
                  the U.S.) consider it OK to execute people. We consider it OK to
                  start a war costing tens of thousands of lives for psychological
                  reasons.

                  So I find it grossly ironic that some argue against doing the right
                  thing for Schiavo because men shouldn't be making decisions like this.
                  (By the way, these aren't the Schindler's arguments. They hold onto
                  misplaced hope that their daughter is capable of recovery, and that is
                  _their_ argument. Well, that and libeling their son-in-law.)

                  Doug

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                    "Doug Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                    news:[email protected]
                    100 years ago, Schiavo would have died. As a society we've effectively made the decision to develop and use the technologies that have kept her breathing and kept her heart beating for 15 years in spite of the fact that her mind is gone. That is "playing god" too.
                    This is a great point. To me, looking at it this way, it is black and white.
                    Either we play god, or we don't. Inserting a breathing tube is not allowing
                    her a "natural death" - that should be what the church is against.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                      "Doug Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                      news:[email protected]
                      100 years ago, Schiavo would have died. As a society we've effectively made the decision to develop and use the technologies that have kept her breathing and kept her heart beating for 15 years in spite of the fact that her mind is gone. That is "playing god" too.
                      This is a great point. To me, looking at it this way, it is black and white.
                      Either we play god, or we don't. Inserting a breathing tube is not allowing
                      her a "natural death" - that should be what the church is against.


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                        On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:49:34 -0500, Joy
                        <[email protected]> wrote:
                        "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                        On 25 Feb 2005 17:40:34 -0800, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
                        Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes: (snip)> But this doesn't alter my opinion on feeding tubes for unconcious> people. What about feeding tubes for the brain dead?
                        So what if somebody has legally with the proper witnessess and notarization filled out a form specifing clearly in black and white that, if they should every be in an irreversible coma or permanent vegetative state in which their physician has determined there there would be no recovery, medical treatment should be withheld or withdrawn - specifically authorizing the withholding or withdrawal of artificially provided food, water, or other nourishment or fluids? What would be your opinion on it in that case?
                        My opinion doesn't change. Legal does not necessarily equal moral or
                        ethical.

                        -Tony

                        --
                        "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
                        to fertilize your lawn!"
                        Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
                        Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                          On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:49:34 -0500, Joy
                          <[email protected]> wrote:
                          "Tony Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                          On 25 Feb 2005 17:40:34 -0800, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
                          Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes: (snip)> But this doesn't alter my opinion on feeding tubes for unconcious> people. What about feeding tubes for the brain dead?
                          So what if somebody has legally with the proper witnessess and notarization filled out a form specifing clearly in black and white that, if they should every be in an irreversible coma or permanent vegetative state in which their physician has determined there there would be no recovery, medical treatment should be withheld or withdrawn - specifically authorizing the withholding or withdrawal of artificially provided food, water, or other nourishment or fluids? What would be your opinion on it in that case?
                          My opinion doesn't change. Legal does not necessarily equal moral or
                          ethical.

                          -Tony

                          --
                          "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
                          to fertilize your lawn!"
                          Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
                          Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                            On 26 Feb 2005 07:52:04 -0800, Doug Anderson
                            <[email protected]> wrote:

                            <Snip>
                            100 years ago, Schiavo would have died. As a society we've effectively made the decision to develop and use the technologies that have kept her breathing and kept her heart beating for 15 years in spite of the fact that her mind is gone. That is "playing god" too.
                            This statement proves that you have no clue what you are talking about.
                            Terri breathes on her own. Her heart beats on it's own. If she continues
                            to be fed, her heart will continue to beat and she will continue to
                            breathe until she stops, in which case she's dead.

                            -Tony

                            --
                            "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
                            to fertilize your lawn!"
                            Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
                            Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                              On 26 Feb 2005 07:52:04 -0800, Doug Anderson
                              <[email protected]> wrote:

                              <Snip>
                              100 years ago, Schiavo would have died. As a society we've effectively made the decision to develop and use the technologies that have kept her breathing and kept her heart beating for 15 years in spite of the fact that her mind is gone. That is "playing god" too.
                              This statement proves that you have no clue what you are talking about.
                              Terri breathes on her own. Her heart beats on it's own. If she continues
                              to be fed, her heart will continue to beat and she will continue to
                              breathe until she stops, in which case she's dead.

                              -Tony

                              --
                              "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
                              to fertilize your lawn!"
                              Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
                              Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Right To Live / Die (Terri Schiavo)

                                Tony Miller <[email protected]> writes:
                                On 26 Feb 2005 07:52:04 -0800, Doug Anderson <[email protected]> wrote: <Snip>
                                100 years ago, Schiavo would have died. As a society we've effectively made the decision to develop and use the technologies that have kept her breathing and kept her heart beating for 15 years in spite of the fact that her mind is gone. That is "playing god" too.
                                This statement proves that you have no clue what you are talking about. Terri breathes on her own. Her heart beats on it's own. If she continues to be fed, her heart will continue to beat and she will continue to breathe until she stops, in which case she's dead.
                                And what part of this proves I don't know what I'm talking about?

                                She doesn't swallow. 100 years ago, she wouldn't have a feeding tube,
                                which is precisely what the debate is about.

                                Stick to the issues instead of trying to project your ignorance on others.

                                Comment

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