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  • #31
    Ya....But....

    "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
    shinypenny wrote:
    "Everyboysmomma" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
    I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting
    a
    few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance
    professor.
    He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
    term
    "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words,
    it
    means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue
    on
    the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same
    advice.
    For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least.
    Then
    comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are
    blue
    in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is
    enlightened
    enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on
    crisis.
    They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
    to
    come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which
    is
    what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen
    Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas?
    Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !

    Comment


    • #32
      Ya....But....

      In article <[email protected]>, Tai <[email protected]>
      wrote:
      That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot of Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else that has to be understood first.
      I don't think it has a thing to do with understanding.
      Deep emotional issues are not resolved be rational arguments.

      Ted

      Comment


      • #33
        Ya....But....

        In article <[email protected]>, Tai <[email protected]>
        wrote:
        That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot of Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else that has to be understood first.
        I don't think it has a thing to do with understanding.
        Deep emotional issues are not resolved be rational arguments.

        Ted

        Comment


        • #34
          Ya....But....

          In article <[email protected] >, Caren
          <[email protected]> wrote:
          Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !
          Très bien!

          Mais, Jen est exact. Je m'ennuie.
          Avec mon travail. Avec mon épouse. Probablement quelques autres
          choses aussi.

          Ted

          Comment


          • #35
            Ya....But....

            In article <[email protected] >, Caren
            <[email protected]> wrote:
            Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !
            Très bien!

            Mais, Jen est exact. Je m'ennuie.
            Avec mon travail. Avec mon épouse. Probablement quelques autres
            choses aussi.

            Ted

            Comment


            • #36
              Ya....But....


              "Seeker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
              news:050820042240427532%[email protected] om...
              In article <[email protected]>, Tai <[email protected]> wrote:
              That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot
              of
              Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much
              else
              that has to be understood first. I don't think it has a thing to do with understanding.
              It doesn't surprise me that you think that.
              Deep emotional issues are not resolved be rational arguments.
              They are resolved by understanding why we do the things we do and working on
              ways to change our behaviour when we are ready to want to. You can make your
              statement as often as *you* want to but it won't change my opinion because
              mine is based on my own experience.

              You don't value change more than you value the status quo. Until and if that
              alters, neither will you.

              tai


              Comment


              • #37
                Ya....But....


                "Seeker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                news:050820042240427532%[email protected] om...
                In article <[email protected]>, Tai <[email protected]> wrote:
                That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot
                of
                Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much
                else
                that has to be understood first. I don't think it has a thing to do with understanding.
                It doesn't surprise me that you think that.
                Deep emotional issues are not resolved be rational arguments.
                They are resolved by understanding why we do the things we do and working on
                ways to change our behaviour when we are ready to want to. You can make your
                statement as often as *you* want to but it won't change my opinion because
                mine is based on my own experience.

                You don't value change more than you value the status quo. Until and if that
                alters, neither will you.

                tai


                Comment


                • #38
                  Ya....But....

                  Caren wrote:
                  "Bill in Co." <surly8curmudg[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
                  shinypenny wrote:
                  "Everyboysmomma" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...> I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting
                  posting
                  > a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor.
                  > He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
                  term
                  > "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these
                  words,
                  > it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going
                  to
                  > totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to
                  continue
                  > on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place.>> In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice.
                  > For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might
                  be
                  > able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least.
                  Then
                  > comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are
                  blue
                  > in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable.
                  But
                  > the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is
                  enlightened
                  > enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine
                  that
                  > the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with
                  their
                  > SO's.>> So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on
                  crisis.
                  > They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them
                  have
                  > to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention
                  which
                  >is what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas? Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !
                  Nah, Ted first. We're talking about Ted. (Besides which, you didn't
                  answer all my other posts, so there)!


                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Ya....But....

                    Caren wrote:
                    "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
                    shinypenny wrote:
                    "Everyboysmomma" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...> I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting
                    posting
                    > a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor.
                    > He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
                    term
                    > "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these
                    words,
                    > it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going
                    to
                    > totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to
                    continue
                    > on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place.>> In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice.
                    > For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might
                    be
                    > able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least.
                    Then
                    > comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are
                    blue
                    > in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable.
                    But
                    > the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is
                    enlightened
                    > enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine
                    that
                    > the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with
                    their
                    > SO's.>> So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on
                    crisis.
                    > They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them
                    have
                    > to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention
                    which
                    >is what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas? Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !
                    Nah, Ted first. We're talking about Ted. (Besides which, you didn't
                    answer all my other posts, so there)!


                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Ya....But....

                      "Tai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                      news:[email protected]
                      That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot
                      of
                      Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else that has to be understood first.
                      Another comment on this. Sometimes the required change is, for all
                      practical purposes, all or nothing -- there are no small increments
                      possible. Or, even if that isn't the case, it seems enough so that it might
                      as well be.

                      Ted


                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Ya....But....

                        "Tai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                        news:[email protected]
                        That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot
                        of
                        Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else that has to be understood first.
                        Another comment on this. Sometimes the required change is, for all
                        practical purposes, all or nothing -- there are no small increments
                        possible. Or, even if that isn't the case, it seems enough so that it might
                        as well be.

                        Ted


                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Ya....But....

                          "JWB" <[email protected] actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> wrote in message news:<%[email protected]> ...
                          "Caren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] om...
                          This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded.
                          I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that somewhat when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get into a debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but I'm no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct"). But I really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made anyone with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would not mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if I won the lottery But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that.
                          Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice.
                          I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong wills and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some
                          advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking.
                          Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB
                          I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being
                          spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is
                          presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like
                          when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and
                          who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect.

                          I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Ya....But....

                            "JWB" <[email protected] actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> wrote in message news:<%[email protected]> ...
                            "Caren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] om...
                            This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded.
                            I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that somewhat when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get into a debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but I'm no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct"). But I really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made anyone with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would not mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if I won the lottery But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that.
                            Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice.
                            I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong wills and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some
                            advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking.
                            Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB
                            I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being
                            spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is
                            presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like
                            when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and
                            who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect.

                            I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Ya....But....

                              "Caren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                              news:[email protected] om...
                              "JWB" <[email protected] actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite
                              dot com> wrote in message
                              news:<%[email protected]> ...
                              "Caren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] om...
                              This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded.
                              I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that
                              somewhat
                              when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get
                              into a
                              debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but
                              I'm
                              no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct").
                              But I
                              really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made
                              anyone
                              with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would
                              not
                              mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if
                              I
                              won the lottery But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that.
                              Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice.
                              I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong
                              wills
                              and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some
                              advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking.
                              Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect. I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.
                              which I think you get. From most of us, anyway


                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Ya....But....

                                "Caren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
                                news:[email protected] om...
                                "JWB" <[email protected] actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite
                                dot com> wrote in message
                                news:<%[email protected]> ...
                                "Caren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] om...
                                This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded.
                                I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that
                                somewhat
                                when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get
                                into a
                                debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but
                                I'm
                                no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct").
                                But I
                                really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made
                                anyone
                                with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would
                                not
                                mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if
                                I
                                won the lottery But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that.
                                Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice.
                                I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong
                                wills
                                and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some
                                advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking.
                                Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect. I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.
                                which I think you get. From most of us, anyway


                                Comment

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