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  • #61
    Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

    BottleRocket wrote:
    "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] nk.net>...
    Denise noe wrote:
    I started this thread about Ward and June Cleaver and it quickly turned
    into
    "Odd Role Models." Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is "odd" about Ward and June?
    What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and
    somewhat
    representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for
    anything
    and anybody. That's what. The main characters of "Married with Children" were not at all representative of today's value system and that's part of why people found the show funny. Another big part of the humor were plays on gender stereo types. It was the misadventures of a completely dysfunctional family. They were anti-role models. I agree "Married with Children" was not high entertainment but it in no way symbolized current cultural values.
    How do you account then for the huge "success" of all the "talk" (= total
    trash, like Springer) shows? Obviously they have a huge audience, or they
    wouldn't still be on. At least in the old days, when this first started
    out (with just Donahue, back in the 70's, as I recall), there was some
    decency and integrity. It's gone now.

    The fact that anybody can - and would - watch and enjoy such stuff, speaks
    volumes of where we are as a "culture" (and I use that word, very loosely).
    Or I should say, of who "we" are, or what we have become. Translation:
    how low can we go? Is there yet a bottom in sight (rhetorical)? And
    how do you account for this (probably another rhetorical Q)?


    Comment


    • #62
      Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

      Bill in Co. wrote:
      How do you account then for the huge "success" of all the "talk" (= total trash, like Springer) shows? Obviously they have a huge audience, or they wouldn't still be on. At least in the old days, when this first started out (with just Donahue, back in the 70's, as I recall), there was some decency and integrity. It's gone now.
      Methinks you are romantacizing the past too much;
      memories tend to accumulate edits.

      The funny thing is that a lot of the things we
      see as threats today existed back then- they just
      weren't as "publicized".

      My wife has an interesting view of Springer-- OK,
      so she won't watch it any more than I would, but
      she thinks it's for the majority of people who
      want to be able to say "Hey, at least I ain't
      that f**ked up!".

      Decency? Integrity?

      D'you remember racism? Anti-semitism? The
      suppression of identity? The drive towards
      being robots through conformity?

      I suspect that the harder and more restrictive
      cultural rules are, the harder the reaction
      against it (and vice versa). Cycles between the
      "restrictive" and "permissive" mindsets have
      occurred across history.

      Perhaps we were overdue for a far more permissive
      cycle but the pendulum is likely to swing back.
      I would suspect ShrubCo is trying to take some
      advantage, but I suspect that permissiveness may
      need to be more of the mainstream before people
      will accept the swing back towards a more
      Victorian mindset.

      There's no simple answer, you know. We're still
      having problems with the tendrils of a restrictive
      past that causes more than a little bit of pain;
      the "right-wing pundits" are clinging to the last
      swing of the pendulum.

      The problem is that we don't really know what we
      will get in the future: it's an emergent future,
      not deterministic.

      --
      Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
      "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
      for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

      Comment


      • #63
        Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

        Bill in Co. wrote:
        How do you account then for the huge "success" of all the "talk" (= total trash, like Springer) shows? Obviously they have a huge audience, or they wouldn't still be on. At least in the old days, when this first started out (with just Donahue, back in the 70's, as I recall), there was some decency and integrity. It's gone now.
        Methinks you are romantacizing the past too much;
        memories tend to accumulate edits.

        The funny thing is that a lot of the things we
        see as threats today existed back then- they just
        weren't as "publicized".

        My wife has an interesting view of Springer-- OK,
        so she won't watch it any more than I would, but
        she thinks it's for the majority of people who
        want to be able to say "Hey, at least I ain't
        that f**ked up!".

        Decency? Integrity?

        D'you remember racism? Anti-semitism? The
        suppression of identity? The drive towards
        being robots through conformity?

        I suspect that the harder and more restrictive
        cultural rules are, the harder the reaction
        against it (and vice versa). Cycles between the
        "restrictive" and "permissive" mindsets have
        occurred across history.

        Perhaps we were overdue for a far more permissive
        cycle but the pendulum is likely to swing back.
        I would suspect ShrubCo is trying to take some
        advantage, but I suspect that permissiveness may
        need to be more of the mainstream before people
        will accept the swing back towards a more
        Victorian mindset.

        There's no simple answer, you know. We're still
        having problems with the tendrils of a restrictive
        past that causes more than a little bit of pain;
        the "right-wing pundits" are clinging to the last
        swing of the pendulum.

        The problem is that we don't really know what we
        will get in the future: it's an emergent future,
        not deterministic.

        --
        Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
        "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
        for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

        Comment

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