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  • Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:45:03 GMT, Jack C Lipton
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    <Snip>
    And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants.
    Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June
    Cleaver!!!!

    And now you're not getting enough "beaver" ))

    -Tony

    --
    "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
    to fertilize your lawn!"
    Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
    Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

  • #2
    Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

    Tony Miller wrote:
    Jack C Lipton wrote:
    And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants.
    Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!!
    Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation)
    who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of
    shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how
    a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should")
    work.

    All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and
    "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued
    over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily
    Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable
    expectations. We never find out how much discomfort
    Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether
    she preferred missionary or doggie.

    In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon
    us, as impressionable children, how things "should"
    be.

    And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to
    me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the
    best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from
    "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal
    marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what
    passes for culture in the US.

    Talk about driving schizophrenia...

    --
    Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
    "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
    for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

    Comment


    • #3
      Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

      "Jack C Lipton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
      news:[email protected] g...
      Tony Miller wrote:
      Jack C Lipton wrote:
      And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants.
      Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!!
      Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia...
      What is so wrong about those old shows? You had married couples who loved
      each other and were happy. Surely you don't prefer more modern shows like
      "Married with Children" where everyone hates everyone else in the
      household?


      Comment


      • #4
        Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

        Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.
        I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.
        The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply
        reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence
        they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.
        ~Kimberlee



        "Jack C Lipton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
        news:[email protected] g...
        Tony Miller wrote:
        Jack C Lipton wrote:
        And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants.
        Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!!
        Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia... -- Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

        Comment


        • #5
          Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

          Kimberlee wrote:
          Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.
          Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that?
          (rhetorical Q)
          I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.
          Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking
          realistically.
          The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
          simply
          reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash. ~Kimberlee
          I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum
          swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so,
          please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)

          "Jack C Lipton" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] g...
          Tony Miller wrote:
          Jack C Lipton wrote:> And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my> own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I> vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI> antidepressants. Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!!
          Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia... -- Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

          Comment


          • #6
            Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)


            "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message
            news:[email protected] hlink.net...
            Kimberlee wrote:
            Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.
            Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)
            I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.
            Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.
            The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
            simply
            reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
            influence
            they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
            trash.
            ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)

            I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.
            "Jack C Lipton" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] g...
            Tony Miller wrote:> Jack C Lipton wrote:>> And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my>> own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I>> vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI>> antidepressants.>> Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by> Ward and June Cleaver!!!! Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia... -- Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx |
            http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
            "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

            Comment


            • #7
              Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

              urf wrote:
              "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] hlink.net...
              Kimberlee wrote:
              Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.
              Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)
              I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.
              Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.
              The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
              simply
              reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
              influence
              they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
              trash.
              ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.
              Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To
              Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to
              children in the episodes), and stuff like that.

              Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children".

              If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered
              acceptable, I don't know what does.


              Comment


              • #8
                Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

                "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
                urf wrote:
                "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] hlink.net...
                Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
                simply
                > reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
                influence
                > they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
                trash.
                > ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.
                Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.
                It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years
                ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows
                on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter.
                Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials
                and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap
                and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids
                was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-)

                You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be
                done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging
                however, it can be done.

                "Back in my day" my best friend was the daughter of a multi
                millionaire. She had everything on the planet and I was envious all
                of the time. My mother constantly told me,"we can't afford that". I
                do the same with my kids. The younger one now is on the "but Carly's
                mom lets her see that movie." And just like my mom, I say, "and your
                mom does not let you see that movie." I also throw in from time to
                time, "Carly's mom lets her eat dead cow." That usually shuts her up
                :-)

                When my son was little, when he misbehaved I'd tell him that I was
                going to take him to McDonalds and make him eat there :-))

                None of us watch Married with Children, Bill. However, I have no
                interest in watching Father Knows Best, unless I have some pot to
                smoke :-))

                Comment


                • #9
                  Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

                  "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
                  urf wrote:
                  "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] hlink.net...
                  Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
                  simply
                  > reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
                  influence
                  > they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
                  trash.
                  > ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.
                  Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.
                  It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years
                  ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows
                  on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter.
                  Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials
                  and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap
                  and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids
                  was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-)

                  You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be
                  done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging
                  however, it can be done.

                  "Back in my day" my best friend was the daughter of a multi
                  millionaire. She had everything on the planet and I was envious all
                  of the time. My mother constantly told me,"we can't afford that". I
                  do the same with my kids. The younger one now is on the "but Carly's
                  mom lets her see that movie." And just like my mom, I say, "and your
                  mom does not let you see that movie." I also throw in from time to
                  time, "Carly's mom lets her eat dead cow." That usually shuts her up
                  :-)

                  When my son was little, when he misbehaved I'd tell him that I was
                  going to take him to McDonalds and make him eat there :-))

                  None of us watch Married with Children, Bill. However, I have no
                  interest in watching Father Knows Best, unless I have some pot to
                  smoke :-))

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

                    Caren wrote:
                    "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
                    urf wrote:
                    "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] hlink.net...> Kimberlee wrote:>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
                    that?
                    > (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather
                    than the
                    trash.
                    >> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
                    pendulum
                    > swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
                    so,
                    > please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It
                    To
                    Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
                    considered
                    acceptable, I don't know what does. It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter. Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-) You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging however, it can be done.
                    But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?
                    (Did you ever stop to think about that)?? It's enough to depress the hell
                    out of anyone. You (apparently) just calmly accept it - carte blanche?

                    Well, yeah, everyone apparently does, or it wouldn't be this way, now would
                    it? So what message is that sending? (rhetorical Q)


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)

                      Caren wrote:
                      "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
                      urf wrote:
                      "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] hlink.net...> Kimberlee wrote:>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
                      that?
                      > (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather
                      than the
                      trash.
                      >> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
                      pendulum
                      > swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
                      so,
                      > please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It
                      To
                      Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
                      considered
                      acceptable, I don't know what does. It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter. Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-) You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging however, it can be done.
                      But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?
                      (Did you ever stop to think about that)?? It's enough to depress the hell
                      out of anyone. You (apparently) just calmly accept it - carte blanche?

                      Well, yeah, everyone apparently does, or it wouldn't be this way, now would
                      it? So what message is that sending? (rhetorical Q)


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)


                        "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message
                        news:[email protected] hlink.net...
                        But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?
                        The challenges are certainly *different* than they were way back when. For
                        instance, it is much less of a challenge to keep your kids alive. A lot of
                        them used to die of things like diarrhea and strep throat.




                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)


                          "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message
                          news:[email protected] hlink.net...
                          But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?
                          The challenges are certainly *different* than they were way back when. For
                          instance, it is much less of a challenge to keep your kids alive. A lot of
                          them used to die of things like diarrhea and strep throat.




                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)


                            "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message
                            news:[email protected] link.net...
                            urf wrote:
                            "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] hlink.net...
                            Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
                            that?
                            (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply
                            > reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
                            influence
                            > they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
                            trash.
                            > ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
                            pendulum
                            swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
                            so,
                            please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
                            considered
                            acceptable, I don't know what does.
                            Speaking now of the pendulum, we are only telling each other of our
                            observations
                            of the world. Without a doubt in my mind it is in the natural order of
                            things to have
                            a balance. That balance can only be had with the to and fro changes that are
                            represented as the swing of the pendulum.

                            The sun follows the rain, the yin is brother to the yang, night and day come
                            to us
                            always as do the seasons even life and death...... it goes on and on.
                            Nothing stays the same
                            and nothing lasts forever. Not even your bad humor.



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Odd Role Models? (was: Ward and June Cleaver)


                              "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message
                              news:[email protected] link.net...
                              urf wrote:
                              "Bill in Co." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] hlink.net...
                              Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
                              that?
                              (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply
                              > reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
                              influence
                              > they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
                              trash.
                              > ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
                              pendulum
                              swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
                              so,
                              please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
                              considered
                              acceptable, I don't know what does.
                              Speaking now of the pendulum, we are only telling each other of our
                              observations
                              of the world. Without a doubt in my mind it is in the natural order of
                              things to have
                              a balance. That balance can only be had with the to and fro changes that are
                              represented as the swing of the pendulum.

                              The sun follows the rain, the yin is brother to the yang, night and day come
                              to us
                              always as do the seasons even life and death...... it goes on and on.
                              Nothing stays the same
                              and nothing lasts forever. Not even your bad humor.



                              Comment

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