Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

not getting paid until arrival at jobsite Louisiana

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • not getting paid until arrival at jobsite Louisiana

    the company i work for does not have a office in this area and they provide company trucks to take home overnight ... per their policy we are not allowed to clock in until we get to our first job in the morning and we are made to clock out at the completion of our last job ....however our work starts from the time we enter our trucks and stops when we get out of our trucks we have got to get all our equipment started up we have to call contractors set our routes to our jobs so we do alot of work while we are in these trucks not to mention we have got to follow company policy the entire time we are in these trucks so im wondering this cant be legal right ? arent we supposed to be paid from the time we are in these trucks to the time we are out of them they are our offices in fact we leave our homes in the morning and go straight to our areas someone anyone i appreciate any help i can get on this subject thanks....................

  • #2
    You have potentially two different issues.
    - In the 1940s Congress passed a law (the Portal-to-Portal Act) which said that commutes are not hours worked. Very clear intent of Congress and seventy years of court cases (including a few SCOTUS decisions) saying that commutes are not hours worked.
    - There are a very few exceptions to this rule, and the company owning the vehicle is not one of the very few exceptions. One possible exception is the "work vehicle" exception. Now this is not "magic words". You saying that "sure, this is a work vehicle" does not magically make it true. Congressional intent (backed up by courts) is that actual work vehicles are few and far between. Examples. If you drove a cement truck home, that would almost certainly be considered a work vehicle. If you drove a company owned pickup truck, that almost certainly would not be considered a "work vehicle".
    - There is also an "out of town" rule, but that is very much a "read the fine print" type of rule. If you worked at the same facility every day, that is a fairly easy rule to trigger. If however you work at different worksites, it becomes a very difficult rule to trigger.

    What exactly is the type of truck you are driving?

    What exactly is the "lot of work you do in the truck"?
    Last edited by DAW; 07-25-2012, 08:14 AM.
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away".
    Philip K. **** (1928-1982)

    Comment


    • #3
      the work truck we have are pickup trucks with the company signs and logos all over it and this is what we work out of just like the cement truck driver we drive from jobsite to jobsite working from our truck our computers are in it our tools and equipment are in it we do underground utility locating we are the people who mark the lines for call before you dig so our work truck is absolutely our office because without the work truck the job cannot be done

      Comment


      • #4
        the work we do from our truck is this we get what we call tickets that come in over our computers these tickets have addresses which tell us where to go also what kind of digging they are doing what company is doing the digging and what needs to be marked meaning what part of the address needs our clients utility lines marked in paint so that the escavator knows and can actually see it so they do not damage it so again everrything we do is from our trucks only we go to a average of 20-40 addresses a day

        Comment


        • #5
          This is not a work truck as the DOL defines it. It is just a company owned vehicle. Other than finding out where you are to go for work each day, what work must be performed in or on the truck BEFORE you arrive at the first client site? The presence of tools and a computer are not going to convert your daily commute to hours worked. Same question at the end of the day. What actual duties are you required to perform once you drive away from the last client at the end of the day?
          I post with the full knowledge and support of my employer, though the opinions rendered are my own and not necessarily representative of their position. In other words, I'm a free agent.

          Comment


          • #6
            If the only duty you perform before you arrive at the first client site is to find out the location of the client sites, that is not going to convert the drive time to that site as work hours. Same at the end of the day. If you are free of actual work duties after you leave the client site, that time need not be paid either.
            I post with the full knowledge and support of my employer, though the opinions rendered are my own and not necessarily representative of their position. In other words, I'm a free agent.

            Comment


            • #7
              Understood. But the courts are VERY clear that what you describe fails the legal definition for "work vehicle". A huge number of employees have made exactly the same argument you just made and every single one of them have lost in court. I understand that this is not what you want to hear. It is not like the cement truck, because (per the law and the courts) a cement truck is not a vehicle of a type normally used for commuting and pickup trucks are. Courts have also said the "company owned", "logos", and "carrying company equipment" are also inadequate arguments. The only pickup trucks I have ever heard of court decisions saying are work vehicles were Ford F-350 pickups heavily modified to include shelves, racks and drawers. Of a sort used by utility companies. If you have that type of truck and you are in Washington state, you could argue that this case is the law ofl land since there is a state SC decision to that effect. Since you are not in Washington state, you would basically have to get a good lawyer and try to argue that even though that decision is not legal precident in your state, that it should be. Might work, might not work. Similar cases in other states have gone the employer's way and those cases are every much precident in your state as Brinks was.
              http://www.sebrisbusto.com/publicati...awnote_id=1107

              -------

              Just to be very clear, 1940s law tha clearly states "commutes are not hours worked", and SCOTUS decisions saying that law is constitutional. That is a VERY high hill to climb. Short of another SCOTUS decision or a new law, this is very black letter law.

              Your chances are quite poor. What little chance you have is not any of the argument you have made so far (also very resolved issues as far as the courts are concerned), but an argument that your "princinpal activity" (which cannot be the drive itself) starts prior to you arriving on the job site. I am not saying that is a strong argugment, but at least once in a while someone wins those sorts of cases. Not as often as those cases lose, but at least the issue is not entirely closed off by the courts.
              "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away".
              Philip K. **** (1928-1982)

              Comment


              • #8
                the duties we do is after we arrive at a address we use our computers in our truck to pull up all utility prints of our clients in the area find our location on the computer match our location to the utility print then get out of our truck mark all of our clients facilities using the paint and tools from our truck after this is done we get back in our trucks then get back on the computer list all that we done and marked attach any and all pictures on the computer of what we marked then close out the ticket then sync our computer to send the ticket into the right place then we use our computer to pull up the map and find our next location to go to make any calls to contractors to inform of our arrival then do this all over again for every ticket we go to which iss from 20 to 40 location a day in the morning when we first get into our trucks we have got to sync our computers get all of our tickets make a route on a map on our computer call all contractors that have tickets due that day then head to our first address which is when we arrive to this job our time starts in the afternoon we have to put all tickets that are due the next day into a special listing call all contractors who has tickets due the next morning and then sync all work that hass been done that day all oof this in the morning and the afternnoon can take sometimes over a hour at least not to mention get all supplies we need to do this job has tto gotten to in these s im not seeing the difference from what we have to do and a cement truck driver

                Comment


                • #9
                  I can see the argument that the clock starts when you arrive at the first work location and stops when you leave the last work location. What work (if any) occurs outside those times? (And commutes are not work because the law and court decisions say it is not work).
                  "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away".
                  Philip K. **** (1928-1982)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    i dont know is makes a difference but our trucks are modified someewhat whe do have the fng LED lights at the top of it with not only truck logos but the cautions stickers also the stickers hazard stickkers and stuff liket we also have GPS in our truck that was added

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nothing you have said would be adequate under the rules of any court decision I have heard of. The government really, really, really does not like the notion that any pickup truck for any reason falls under the notion of "work vehicle". The original intent of that rule was for vehicles like tractors or backhoes. There are a huge number of pickup trucks in the US, the vast majority of them clearly "of a type of vehicle that can be used for commuting". There have been a huge number of pickup related court cases, almost all of which say that pickup trucks are not work vehicles. All of the arguments you have made have been unsuccessfully tried. That was what made the Brinks decision so interesting. It is the only modern court case (a SCOTUS decision tends to wipe out earlier precidents) that says certain pickup trucks under very narrow conditions might be work vehicles. Since that was WA SC, and even the (many) oppenents agree that the case was well written, that is very good law (for now) in WA, at least until SCOTUS gets involved again (which they probably will, sooner or later). But you are not in WA, meaning your lawyer can argue that your court should look at that case, but they cannot argue that your court must look at that case. And there are many other cases going in the other direction. Most courts simple decide all cases in exactly the same was prior cases in their own juristiction were decided. Which is not good for you.

                      I understand that this is not what you what to hear, but you still seem to looking for some magic answer that does not exist. You are not the first person (or one millionth person) with this issue, and this issue has been very clearly decided in the past.

                      If you have a solution, and you probably do not, it involves trying to argue that principal activity occurs prior to the first stop of the day. That door is not entirely closed, just almost entirely closed.
                      "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away".
                      Philip K. **** (1928-1982)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        but we are not free of work duties in the afternoon we are still working until the time we get to our home we all are, thiss job consist of so much more than just marking a address theres a ton of stuff work stuff we have got to do in these times that take alot of time to complete as i explained in the other post im not trying to take this to court we have all just been wondering if this is legal cause its just not right to all of us that we dont get paid for alot of the work we do just because we are not at a certain address at that time, they bully us into doing these things and then refuse to pay us for our time spent doing them it is so upsetting that they get away with tthis we are responsible for our areas and any and all things that happen in our areas until either 4pm or 6pm whichever suits them at the time and even though we get off at 330pm we are not free to do anything in these work trucks except what they say we can do, another thing is if we dont do these things we havve to do in thee mornings before we get to our first ticket and in the afternooons after we finish our last ticket if we do not do these things then we get fired how iss that possible they dont pay us for doing them but iif we dont do them we can be fired its just ridiculous you know

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          i reaally appreciate all of your wisdom here and yes it is very annoying that this hhappens as much as it does i mean if the company is leasing all these trucks and puttting there names on these trucks and altering these truckks to fit whaat they need done then by definition i would think this would be considered a work truck in all eyes but you have gave us alot to think about and im glad you responded to my postts thank you very much

                          by the wway sorry my keyboard is really messing up right now so sorry foor all the double lettering

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ignore the commutes, and focus on those items which you actually maybe have a case. Are you not being paid for non-commute time? Please address that only without bringing up unrelated issues.

                            -----

                            Just to be clear, federal law (FLSA) in this area looks pretty much at only two things, minimum wage and overtime. Lets say that Bob makes $10/hr and works 50 hours this workweek. The feds are interested in the minimum wage of base pay ($7.25/hr x 40 hours) and all wages associated with overtime ($10/hr x 10 hours x 150% OT premium). The feds never have any interest in the non-MW portion of base wages ($2.75/hr x 40 hours). For this reason, most federal claims are OT claims. It also makes the determination of "hours worked" very important since almost all states use the federal rules for that.

                            States are interested in whatever they are interested in. Different states have very different rules and your state is not my state. HOWEVER, there is a very good chance small claims court and general court actions could be interested in all unpaid wages. Not just the federal rules part.
                            "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away".
                            Philip K. **** (1928-1982)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Punctuation is a good thing. Please use it. It is very hard to read one block of text with no sentences.

                              It doesn't matter one bit what your duties are once you arrive at the job site and start working and getting paid. Somehow you just don't seem to understand or refuse to accept that driving a pick up truck, even one covered in logos and owned by the employer, does not mean the time you spend driving it to get to work must be paid. You can call it a work truck all you want. It still does not mean the drive time to and from the job must be paid. It is also irrelevant that you can not use the truck for personal trips. If you were to, then there would be tax implications. Many employers have rules against using a company vehicle for personal reasons.

                              You have not shared what you must do after you leave the job site. I'm not sure how it is you claim to be working if you are driving the truck home.
                              I post with the full knowledge and support of my employer, though the opinions rendered are my own and not necessarily representative of their position. In other words, I'm a free agent.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X