Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

FICO secrets

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    FICO secrets

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:28:04 -0400, The Etobian wrote:
    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:41:15 -0000, [email protected] (Gordon Burditt) wrote:
    But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can Ipossibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?
    Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the information you have about me is accurate." If the bank refuses to show you the report, the report is NOT included in the information you signed off as accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act of fraud.
    Exactly. That's all a signature on these things is anyway. If you
    don't know, it's not fraud. They cannot prove the unprovable.

    --
    Keith

    Comment


    • #62
      FICO secrets

      On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 08:07:56 -0500, wrote:
      [email protected] wrote:
      I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
      It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire.
      You need to go back to sleep and wake up in our universe.
      We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan. We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements. Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.
      Good idea! What's wrong with telling them to stuff it?!

      --
      Keith

      Comment


      • #63
        FICO secrets

        On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 08:07:56 -0500, wrote:
        [email protected] wrote:
        I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
        It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire.
        You need to go back to sleep and wake up in our universe.
        We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan. We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements. Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.
        Good idea! What's wrong with telling them to stuff it?!

        --
        Keith

        Comment


        • #64
          FICO secrets

          [email protected] wrote:
          On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:19:24 GMT, Andrew White<[email protected]> wrote:
          Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and tolenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is theOpen/Closed indicator that is used.
          Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn'tmean it's used by FICO.
          Huh? Is that supposed to be a logical argument?

          Comment


          • #65
            FICO secrets

            [email protected] wrote:
            On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:19:24 GMT, Andrew White<[email protected]> wrote:
            Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and tolenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is theOpen/Closed indicator that is used.
            Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn'tmean it's used by FICO.
            Huh? Is that supposed to be a logical argument?

            Comment


            • #66
              FICO secrets

              >>But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can I
              possibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the informationyou have about me is accurate."
              No, to the best of my knowledge, 90% of the information you (or anyone
              else) have (on any subject whatever) that I didn't give you is crap.
              If the bank refuses to show you thereport, the report is NOT included in the information you signed offas accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act offraud.
              As long as there's a list of what information I *am* signing off on,
              and I can verify that, it's fine. With the above statement, the
              bank can claim they *DID* show me the report, and I can't prove they
              didn't if there's no list of what I am signing off on.

              Gordon L. Burditt

              Comment


              • #67
                FICO secrets

                >>But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can I
                possibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the informationyou have about me is accurate."
                No, to the best of my knowledge, 90% of the information you (or anyone
                else) have (on any subject whatever) that I didn't give you is crap.
                If the bank refuses to show you thereport, the report is NOT included in the information you signed offas accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act offraud.
                As long as there's a list of what information I *am* signing off on,
                and I can verify that, it's fine. With the above statement, the
                bank can claim they *DID* show me the report, and I can't prove they
                didn't if there's no list of what I am signing off on.

                Gordon L. Burditt

                Comment


                • #68
                  FICO secrets

                  On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:23:58 GMT, Andrew White
                  <[email protected]> wrote:
                  Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn'tmean it's used by FICO.Huh? Is that supposed to be a logical argument?
                  It's an anti-illogical argument. It refutes bad logic.

                  You claimed the open/closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae, right?
                  And you gave the impression that you think that means it's used by
                  FICO.

                  How do you even know it's used by Fannie Mae? Just because you saw
                  some code that references it doesn't mean it's necessarily used
                  currently. And how do you know Fannie Mae's decision to use it was an
                  intelligent decision? A lot of software development decisions are
                  made because they seem obvious, not because anyone has given serious
                  thought to their implications.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    FICO secrets

                    On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:23:58 GMT, Andrew White
                    <[email protected]> wrote:
                    Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn'tmean it's used by FICO.Huh? Is that supposed to be a logical argument?
                    It's an anti-illogical argument. It refutes bad logic.

                    You claimed the open/closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae, right?
                    And you gave the impression that you think that means it's used by
                    FICO.

                    How do you even know it's used by Fannie Mae? Just because you saw
                    some code that references it doesn't mean it's necessarily used
                    currently. And how do you know Fannie Mae's decision to use it was an
                    intelligent decision? A lot of software development decisions are
                    made because they seem obvious, not because anyone has given serious
                    thought to their implications.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      FICO secrets

                      [email protected] wrote:
                      On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:23:58 GMT, Andrew White<[email protected]> wrote:
                      Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn'tmean it's used by FICO.Huh? Is that supposed to be a logical argument?
                      It's an anti-illogical argument. It refutes bad logic.You claimed the open/closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae, right?And you gave the impression that you think that means it's used byFICO.How do you even know it's used by Fannie Mae? Just because you sawsome code that references it doesn't mean it's necessarily usedcurrently. And how do you know Fannie Mae's decision to use it was anintelligent decision? A lot of software development decisions aremade because they seem obvious, not because anyone has given seriousthought to their implications.
                      Let me know when you grow up and get some education, then we'll have a
                      real conversation. Ok?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        FICO secrets

                        [email protected] wrote:
                        On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:23:58 GMT, Andrew White<[email protected]> wrote:
                        Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn'tmean it's used by FICO.Huh? Is that supposed to be a logical argument?
                        It's an anti-illogical argument. It refutes bad logic.You claimed the open/closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae, right?And you gave the impression that you think that means it's used byFICO.How do you even know it's used by Fannie Mae? Just because you sawsome code that references it doesn't mean it's necessarily usedcurrently. And how do you know Fannie Mae's decision to use it was anintelligent decision? A lot of software development decisions aremade because they seem obvious, not because anyone has given seriousthought to their implications.
                        Let me know when you grow up and get some education, then we'll have a
                        real conversation. Ok?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          FICO secrets

                          In article <ecklein-
                          [email protected]>,
                          [email protected] says...
                          In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
                          On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 04:53:18 GMT, Ernie Klein <[email protected]> wrote:
                          denied. It wouldn't outlaw FICO outright, just say that creditorscouldn't use or cite a FICO score to deny credit unless the exact sourceof the FICO score was revealed.
                          That seems redundant. They obviously couldn't cite a FICO score if they couldn't use it. So the law should just say they can't use it, not that they can't cite it.
                          A law that specially outlaws one companies product probably wouldn't stand muster. Since CA already had a strong disclosure law when credit is denied, mealy adding an additional requirement that expands the nature of the disclosure covers not only the existing FICO but any other future systems that may be thought up.

                          It should simply say the scoring software has to be disclosed to the victim, and that such disclosure could be in the form of a URL letting the victim download the scoring software and run it on their own credit report to verify it worked. Then a lot of open source programmers would add features to let you experiment with the score, do what-if scenarios, display pie charts showing how much weight each factor had in your own score, etc.

                          See above. The law wouldn't care one wit about the method or nature of a score or any other method used to determine the granting of credit, it would only say that if credit is denied, the actual reason for the denial be given to the consumer in a clearly understandable way.

                          Unless things have changed in the past several years, it is
                          already that way.

                          1. Fill out a credit card application.

                          2. Get the rejection letter in the post a few weeks later.

                          3. That letter may contain specific reasons for denial, including
                          the specific credit bureau that they used.

                          4. If it doesn't, write to the inquiry address (on the letter),
                          and ask.

                          5. Then get another letter telling you the reasons, and which
                          bureau.

                          They would give simple, clear reasons. Like debt/income ratio,
                          or length of time of oldest account, or delinquent
                          accounts/collections, and so forth. They might give three or
                          four.

                          I think this is state-specific, and I can only say how California
                          did it.


                          --
                          Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
                          http://www.cardreport.com/
                          Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            FICO secrets

                            In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
                            says...
                            On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 00:15:29 GMT, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:
                            Who said you need recourse? A lender can deny you credit withoutproviding a reason, unless applicable law says otherwise.
                            If the lender represents that you will be judged fairly, and you decide to take the lender's word that you will be judged fairly, and proceed to apply, which is to the lender's benefit, but the lender turns out not to judge you fairly after all, he has commited fraud against you, because there was an implied contract, that you would invest in the process of applying for credit, to the lender's benefit, and that your investment was motivated by the lender's representation of fairness. The implied contract basically says, "if you will agree to submit your application to me, at your cost, I will agree to judge it fairly, and we will both benefit, by having a certain probability of being able to do mutually beneficial business together." Therefore, credit decisions do have to be fair, or they will be fraudulent. The only way unfair credit decisions could avoid being fraudulent would be if the lender disclosed to the applicant up front that the credit decisions would be unfair.

                            Please provide a citation for the legal definition of, "fair."

                            Thank you.


                            --
                            Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
                            http://www.cardreport.com/
                            Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              FICO secrets

                              In article <[email protected]>,
                              [email protected] says...
                              Scores aren't divined out of thin air. Each of the three major credit bureaus have their own scoring system, and they use their own credit report data to come up with your score. Your "credit score" is simply a representation of one of your credit reports.Well, when the CA legislature held hearings on the matter about 1 yearand a half ago, they couldn't make much sense of it. Several expertwitnesses testified that they studied many credit reports and comparedthe report to the FICO score for the same person and concluded that onecould not predict from the credit report alone what the resulting FICOscore would be. A FICO score is supposedly computed from a credit report, which is supplied as input, not from information collected by FICO. One indication that a FICO score has hidden inputs would be that the *SAME* credit report comes back with different scores. It wouldn't be that hard to test whether other inputs are being used (say, by looking something up by SSN or name from outside) by submitting identical credit reports and checking if they get different scores, and to detect, say, racial bias by repeating this with the only difference being race (which isn't on the credit report). It would be interesting to find that otherwise identical credit reports significantly change FICO score due only to a change in the ethnicity of the name or the last digit of the SSN.
                              They presented several pairs of credit reports where one obviously was abetter credit risk than the other, but the better credit risk (in theiropinion based on the credit report) had the lower FICO score. Theyconcluded that the FICO score must be skewed by factors not found in theunderlying credit report. As I recall a FICO representative was calledbut refused to testify citing proprietory business secrets.
                              What the CA legislature found was that either FICO or the experts don't do a good job of rating someone's risk of default. For all we know, the input credit report is never read, but is ground up and used in an enema for a psychic, who then reads the spray pattern when it is ejected. HOW MUCH of a score difference existed in these pairs of reports that the CA legislature tried? Perhaps a 50 point difference really is insignificant but a 200 point difference is?

                              Another question is: Were the contrasting scores made on the same
                              day?

                              Apparantly, legitimate FICO credit scores can change on a *daily*
                              basis. There could be some underlying item that distinguishes
                              between something happened, say, three months and ten days,
                              versus three months and nine days, ago. For the same person,
                              with all the same input info.

                              And there is NOT necessarily anything illegal or immoral going
                              on.


                              --
                              Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
                              http://www.cardreport.com/
                              Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X