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  • #46
    FICO secrets

    [email protected] wrote:
    I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends ondeep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion aboutthe details of such secrets.Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a widemargin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies thatcheck our credit tend to disclose what score system they use?Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drasticallydifferently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for thesole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the differencebetween closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight.But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicateswhether an account is open or closed? Or what if that informationtends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equallyreasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondaryindicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? Theymight parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions aboutinactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actualopen/closed status of the account.How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formulain detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. Andthe more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popularopinion might be the most speculative of all.
    FICO scores are almost universally used in the mortgage industry. My
    company - Fannie Mae - is actually to thank for it.

    Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and to
    lenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is the
    Open/Closed indicator that is used.

    Comment


    • #47
      FICO secrets

      [email protected] wrote:
      I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends ondeep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion aboutthe details of such secrets.Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a widemargin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies thatcheck our credit tend to disclose what score system they use?Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drasticallydifferently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for thesole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the differencebetween closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight.But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicateswhether an account is open or closed? Or what if that informationtends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equallyreasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondaryindicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? Theymight parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions aboutinactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actualopen/closed status of the account.How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formulain detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. Andthe more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popularopinion might be the most speculative of all.
      FICO scores are almost universally used in the mortgage industry. My
      company - Fannie Mae - is actually to thank for it.

      Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and to
      lenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is the
      Open/Closed indicator that is used.

      Comment


      • #48
        FICO secrets

        On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:19:24 GMT, Andrew White
        <[email protected]> wrote:
        Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and tolenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is theOpen/Closed indicator that is used.
        Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn't
        mean it's used by FICO.

        Comment


        • #49
          FICO secrets

          On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:19:24 GMT, Andrew White
          <[email protected]> wrote:
          Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and tolenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is theOpen/Closed indicator that is used.
          Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn't
          mean it's used by FICO.

          Comment


          • #50
            FICO secrets

            On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 05:50:42 +0000, Gordon Burditt wrote:
            >> I disagree. It is up to you to make sure that the information is>> *FAVORABLE TO YOU*, not accurate. You are under no obligation to>> correct errors you believe are in your favor.>>I'm not sure the legality of that statement. I'm not disputing it, but>I could see how it might be construed to be fraud. I don't see how it could be fraud unless I put the error in there in the first place.If you state that an entry is false whan you know it isn't, that's fraud.Your only recourse is to attempt to make the record factual. Agreed, disputing an entry that you know to be accurate, then applying for credit is fraud. But failure to dispute an entry you know to be inaccurate but think is more favorable to you (unlikely to happen, but it can) is not (unless you state that it is accurate).
            Ok, a lie by omission isn't fraud unless you're asked to sign that the
            record is factual (which in this case you're not).
            >At least if a>creditor or anyone had you state that you believe all the information>in your report to be accurate. I doubt that will ever be an issue. No creditor has ever been willing to show me my credit report, even when I asked and said that if I was getting charged a fee for it, I should be able to get a copy of it. They will tell me how I can get my own copy, but not show me the same copy THEY got.Why should they? Thay paid for it, you didn't. In fact they may neversee it, rather only the results. Then how can I possibly state that I believe all the information in THE REPORT THEY GOT is accurate? If I get my own copy before or after (or both) they did, it might have different errors in it. Also, what I see of my credit report is different from what they see.
            Could have, but the moon could really be made from green cheese too. The
            fact is that you don't own that report.
            Also, I would never sign such a statement anyway, on the grounds that a nontrivial portion of it is unintelligible codes that I do not understand.They aren't required to give you credit either. Seems fair to me. But I doubt they'd ever ask the question. Have you ever heard of anyone being asked that? Do you think it is a common practice for, say, mortgages?
            Sign a statement that all the information is factual? Yes. If they find
            it's not, there might be fraud involved. In any case, if you don't sign
            whatever they put in front of you, no loan.
            For the record, I do not believe that there has been an accurate credit report in the entire history of the world.I think you're an idiot. I hope you don't regret taking someone else's credit report too seriously.
            Parsing error: Too many negatives

            --
            Keith

            Comment


            • #51
              FICO secrets

              On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 05:50:42 +0000, Gordon Burditt wrote:
              >> I disagree. It is up to you to make sure that the information is>> *FAVORABLE TO YOU*, not accurate. You are under no obligation to>> correct errors you believe are in your favor.>>I'm not sure the legality of that statement. I'm not disputing it, but>I could see how it might be construed to be fraud. I don't see how it could be fraud unless I put the error in there in the first place.If you state that an entry is false whan you know it isn't, that's fraud.Your only recourse is to attempt to make the record factual. Agreed, disputing an entry that you know to be accurate, then applying for credit is fraud. But failure to dispute an entry you know to be inaccurate but think is more favorable to you (unlikely to happen, but it can) is not (unless you state that it is accurate).
              Ok, a lie by omission isn't fraud unless you're asked to sign that the
              record is factual (which in this case you're not).
              >At least if a>creditor or anyone had you state that you believe all the information>in your report to be accurate. I doubt that will ever be an issue. No creditor has ever been willing to show me my credit report, even when I asked and said that if I was getting charged a fee for it, I should be able to get a copy of it. They will tell me how I can get my own copy, but not show me the same copy THEY got.Why should they? Thay paid for it, you didn't. In fact they may neversee it, rather only the results. Then how can I possibly state that I believe all the information in THE REPORT THEY GOT is accurate? If I get my own copy before or after (or both) they did, it might have different errors in it. Also, what I see of my credit report is different from what they see.
              Could have, but the moon could really be made from green cheese too. The
              fact is that you don't own that report.
              Also, I would never sign such a statement anyway, on the grounds that a nontrivial portion of it is unintelligible codes that I do not understand.They aren't required to give you credit either. Seems fair to me. But I doubt they'd ever ask the question. Have you ever heard of anyone being asked that? Do you think it is a common practice for, say, mortgages?
              Sign a statement that all the information is factual? Yes. If they find
              it's not, there might be fraud involved. In any case, if you don't sign
              whatever they put in front of you, no loan.
              For the record, I do not believe that there has been an accurate credit report in the entire history of the world.I think you're an idiot. I hope you don't regret taking someone else's credit report too seriously.
              Parsing error: Too many negatives

              --
              Keith

              Comment


              • #52
                FICO secrets

                >>>>>At least if a
                >>creditor or anyone had you state that you believe all the information>>in your report to be accurate.>> I doubt that will ever be an issue. No creditor has ever been willing> to show me my credit report, even when I asked and said that if I was> getting charged a fee for it, I should be able to get a copy of it.> They will tell me how I can get my own copy, but not show me the same> copy THEY got.Why should they? Thay paid for it, you didn't. In fact they may neversee it, rather only the results. Then how can I possibly state that I believe all the information in THE REPORT THEY GOT is accurate? If I get my own copy before or after (or both) they did, it might have different errors in it. Also, what I see of my credit report is different from what they see.Could have, but the moon could really be made from green cheese too. Thefact is that you don't own that report.
                But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can I
                possibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?

                It is often stated by credit reporting agencies that the report YOU
                see is not the same as the one the a mortgage company sees
                (intentionally on the credit reporting agency's part). In particular,
                some of the inqueries you see on your report aren't shown to the
                mortgage company (or at least that's what they want you to believe).
                Also, you have at least THREE credit reports, and just because
                there's no errors in the one *I* looked at doesn't mean there's no
                errors in the one *THEY* looked at. And if we get the reports at
                different times, there could be different errors. Updates are
                happening all the time. It's likely to be once a month per account
                you have open, although the update might not change anything (balance
                still 0, still no late payments, ...).
                > Also, I would never sign such a statement anyway, on the grounds that> a nontrivial portion of it is unintelligible codes that I do not> understand.They aren't required to give you credit either. Seems fair to me. But I doubt they'd ever ask the question. Have you ever heard of anyone being asked that? Do you think it is a common practice for, say, mortgages?Sign a statement that all the information is factual? Yes.
                And what does this statement say about *WHAT* information is factual?
                (Applications I'm familiar with ask you to state that information
                on the *application* is factual. That part is easy.) If they expect
                me to verify information on a credit report, they have to state
                *WHICH* copy of the credit report (which of the Big Three, and I
                don't see how you can verify an unspecified version of a report
                which is by its nature updated frequently).
                If they findit's not, there might be fraud involved.
                If I signed a statement that I verified my credit report as accurate,
                one that didn't specify *WHICH* copy of the report, and they then
                found errors on *their* copy, all I have to do is produce a credit
                report without errors from around the time of the applicaton, say
                that's the one I verified, and I'm off the hook for any errors.
                In any case, if you don't signwhatever they put in front of you, no loan.
                Have you ever actually seen a request by a lender (any lender) to
                state that your *credit report* (not information on the application,
                even if it largely duplicates your credit report) is accurate? One
                that didn't specify a specific copy, probably attached to the
                paperwork you're asked to sign?

                Lenders are smarter than that. If they want me to verify that my
                credit report is accurate, they'll give me a copy of the credit
                report they want me to verify, and probably have me at least
                initial the copy I checked along with a statement that I verified
                *THAT COPY*.

                Gordon L. Burditt

                Comment


                • #53
                  FICO secrets

                  >>>>>At least if a
                  >>creditor or anyone had you state that you believe all the information>>in your report to be accurate.>> I doubt that will ever be an issue. No creditor has ever been willing> to show me my credit report, even when I asked and said that if I was> getting charged a fee for it, I should be able to get a copy of it.> They will tell me how I can get my own copy, but not show me the same> copy THEY got.Why should they? Thay paid for it, you didn't. In fact they may neversee it, rather only the results. Then how can I possibly state that I believe all the information in THE REPORT THEY GOT is accurate? If I get my own copy before or after (or both) they did, it might have different errors in it. Also, what I see of my credit report is different from what they see.Could have, but the moon could really be made from green cheese too. Thefact is that you don't own that report.
                  But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can I
                  possibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?

                  It is often stated by credit reporting agencies that the report YOU
                  see is not the same as the one the a mortgage company sees
                  (intentionally on the credit reporting agency's part). In particular,
                  some of the inqueries you see on your report aren't shown to the
                  mortgage company (or at least that's what they want you to believe).
                  Also, you have at least THREE credit reports, and just because
                  there's no errors in the one *I* looked at doesn't mean there's no
                  errors in the one *THEY* looked at. And if we get the reports at
                  different times, there could be different errors. Updates are
                  happening all the time. It's likely to be once a month per account
                  you have open, although the update might not change anything (balance
                  still 0, still no late payments, ...).
                  > Also, I would never sign such a statement anyway, on the grounds that> a nontrivial portion of it is unintelligible codes that I do not> understand.They aren't required to give you credit either. Seems fair to me. But I doubt they'd ever ask the question. Have you ever heard of anyone being asked that? Do you think it is a common practice for, say, mortgages?Sign a statement that all the information is factual? Yes.
                  And what does this statement say about *WHAT* information is factual?
                  (Applications I'm familiar with ask you to state that information
                  on the *application* is factual. That part is easy.) If they expect
                  me to verify information on a credit report, they have to state
                  *WHICH* copy of the credit report (which of the Big Three, and I
                  don't see how you can verify an unspecified version of a report
                  which is by its nature updated frequently).
                  If they findit's not, there might be fraud involved.
                  If I signed a statement that I verified my credit report as accurate,
                  one that didn't specify *WHICH* copy of the report, and they then
                  found errors on *their* copy, all I have to do is produce a credit
                  report without errors from around the time of the applicaton, say
                  that's the one I verified, and I'm off the hook for any errors.
                  In any case, if you don't signwhatever they put in front of you, no loan.
                  Have you ever actually seen a request by a lender (any lender) to
                  state that your *credit report* (not information on the application,
                  even if it largely duplicates your credit report) is accurate? One
                  that didn't specify a specific copy, probably attached to the
                  paperwork you're asked to sign?

                  Lenders are smarter than that. If they want me to verify that my
                  credit report is accurate, they'll give me a copy of the credit
                  report they want me to verify, and probably have me at least
                  initial the copy I checked along with a statement that I verified
                  *THAT COPY*.

                  Gordon L. Burditt

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    FICO secrets

                    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:41:15 -0000, [email protected] (Gordon
                    Burditt) wrote:
                    But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can Ipossibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?
                    Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the information
                    you have about me is accurate." If the bank refuses to show you the
                    report, the report is NOT included in the information you signed off
                    as accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act of
                    fraud.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      FICO secrets

                      On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:41:15 -0000, [email protected] (Gordon
                      Burditt) wrote:
                      But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can Ipossibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?
                      Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the information
                      you have about me is accurate." If the bank refuses to show you the
                      report, the report is NOT included in the information you signed off
                      as accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act of
                      fraud.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        FICO secrets

                        [email protected] wrote:
                        I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
                        It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire.
                        We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan.
                        We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances
                        each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those
                        ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements.
                        Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we
                        looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          FICO secrets

                          [email protected] wrote:
                          I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
                          It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire.
                          We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan.
                          We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances
                          each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those
                          ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements.
                          Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we
                          looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            FICO secrets


                            "sally" <@int.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                            [email protected] wrote:
                            I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
                            It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire. We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan. We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements. Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.
                            You are obviously a borrower who doesn't put up with bull**** and that makes
                            you a less profitable (exploitable) customer for lenders.

                            So it's actually not a flaw that your FICO went down. FICO ultimately
                            measures your desirability to lenders and a borrower who doesn't put up with
                            arbitration agreements is clearly a less desirable customer.

                            (Of course, I'm not claiming that's the actual reason your FICO went down -
                            nor am I claiming that it's not the reason... Credit reports do include the
                            identity of the lenders and for all we know, having different lenders on
                            your report may be an input that affects your FICO.)




                            Comment


                            • #59
                              FICO secrets


                              "sally" <@int.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
                              [email protected] wrote:
                              I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
                              It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire. We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan. We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements. Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.
                              You are obviously a borrower who doesn't put up with bull**** and that makes
                              you a less profitable (exploitable) customer for lenders.

                              So it's actually not a flaw that your FICO went down. FICO ultimately
                              measures your desirability to lenders and a borrower who doesn't put up with
                              arbitration agreements is clearly a less desirable customer.

                              (Of course, I'm not claiming that's the actual reason your FICO went down -
                              nor am I claiming that it's not the reason... Credit reports do include the
                              identity of the lenders and for all we know, having different lenders on
                              your report may be an input that affects your FICO.)




                              Comment


                              • #60
                                FICO secrets

                                On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:28:04 -0400, The Etobian wrote:
                                On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:41:15 -0000, [email protected] (Gordon Burditt) wrote:
                                But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can Ipossibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?
                                Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the information you have about me is accurate." If the bank refuses to show you the report, the report is NOT included in the information you signed off as accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act of fraud.
                                Exactly. That's all a signature on these things is anyway. If you
                                don't know, it's not fraud. They cannot prove the unprovable.

                                --
                                Keith

                                Comment

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