Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

FICO secrets

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • keith
    replied
    FICO secrets

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:28:04 -0400, The Etobian wrote:
    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:41:15 -0000, [email protected] (Gordon Burditt) wrote:
    But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can Ipossibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?
    Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the information you have about me is accurate." If the bank refuses to show you the report, the report is NOT included in the information you signed off as accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act of fraud.
    Exactly. That's all a signature on these things is anyway. If you
    don't know, it's not fraud. They cannot prove the unprovable.

    --
    Keith

    Leave a comment:


  • SpammersDie
    replied
    FICO secrets


    "sally" <@int.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    [email protected] wrote:
    I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
    It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire. We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan. We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements. Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.
    You are obviously a borrower who doesn't put up with bull**** and that makes
    you a less profitable (exploitable) customer for lenders.

    So it's actually not a flaw that your FICO went down. FICO ultimately
    measures your desirability to lenders and a borrower who doesn't put up with
    arbitration agreements is clearly a less desirable customer.

    (Of course, I'm not claiming that's the actual reason your FICO went down -
    nor am I claiming that it's not the reason... Credit reports do include the
    identity of the lenders and for all we know, having different lenders on
    your report may be an input that affects your FICO.)




    Leave a comment:


  • SpammersDie
    replied
    FICO secrets


    "sally" <@int.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    [email protected] wrote:
    I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
    It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire. We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan. We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements. Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.
    You are obviously a borrower who doesn't put up with bull**** and that makes
    you a less profitable (exploitable) customer for lenders.

    So it's actually not a flaw that your FICO went down. FICO ultimately
    measures your desirability to lenders and a borrower who doesn't put up with
    arbitration agreements is clearly a less desirable customer.

    (Of course, I'm not claiming that's the actual reason your FICO went down -
    nor am I claiming that it's not the reason... Credit reports do include the
    identity of the lenders and for all we know, having different lenders on
    your report may be an input that affects your FICO.)




    Leave a comment:


  • sally
    replied
    FICO secrets

    [email protected] wrote:
    I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
    It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire.
    We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan.
    We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances
    each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those
    ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements.
    Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we
    looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.

    Leave a comment:


  • sally
    replied
    FICO secrets

    [email protected] wrote:
    I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends on deep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion about the details of such secrets. Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a wide margin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies that check our credit tend to disclose what score system they use? Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drastically differently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for the sole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the difference between closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight. But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicates whether an account is open or closed? Or what if that information tends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equally reasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondary indicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? They might parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions about inactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actual open/closed status of the account. How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formula in detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. And the more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popular opinion might be the most speculative of all.
    It's all bull**** dreamed up by the Banking Empire.
    We paid off several credit cars and a conventional loan.
    We've nt been late oranything else. We paid most of the cards balances
    each month. We closed the accounts because they started including those
    ****ed Binding Mandatory Arbitration Agreements.
    Our FICO score went down. They wanted to charge us a high rate when we
    looked at a new car because of it. Told them to stuff it.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Etobian
    replied
    FICO secrets

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:41:15 -0000, [email protected] (Gordon
    Burditt) wrote:
    But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can Ipossibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?
    Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the information
    you have about me is accurate." If the bank refuses to show you the
    report, the report is NOT included in the information you signed off
    as accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act of
    fraud.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Etobian
    replied
    FICO secrets

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:41:15 -0000, [email protected] (Gordon
    Burditt) wrote:
    But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can Ipossibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?
    Then you can safely sign "to the best of my knowledge, the information
    you have about me is accurate." If the bank refuses to show you the
    report, the report is NOT included in the information you signed off
    as accurate, and they can't later claim your signature was an act of
    fraud.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gordon Burditt
    replied
    FICO secrets

    >>>>>At least if a
    >>creditor or anyone had you state that you believe all the information>>in your report to be accurate.>> I doubt that will ever be an issue. No creditor has ever been willing> to show me my credit report, even when I asked and said that if I was> getting charged a fee for it, I should be able to get a copy of it.> They will tell me how I can get my own copy, but not show me the same> copy THEY got.Why should they? Thay paid for it, you didn't. In fact they may neversee it, rather only the results. Then how can I possibly state that I believe all the information in THE REPORT THEY GOT is accurate? If I get my own copy before or after (or both) they did, it might have different errors in it. Also, what I see of my credit report is different from what they see.Could have, but the moon could really be made from green cheese too. Thefact is that you don't own that report.
    But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can I
    possibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?

    It is often stated by credit reporting agencies that the report YOU
    see is not the same as the one the a mortgage company sees
    (intentionally on the credit reporting agency's part). In particular,
    some of the inqueries you see on your report aren't shown to the
    mortgage company (or at least that's what they want you to believe).
    Also, you have at least THREE credit reports, and just because
    there's no errors in the one *I* looked at doesn't mean there's no
    errors in the one *THEY* looked at. And if we get the reports at
    different times, there could be different errors. Updates are
    happening all the time. It's likely to be once a month per account
    you have open, although the update might not change anything (balance
    still 0, still no late payments, ...).
    > Also, I would never sign such a statement anyway, on the grounds that> a nontrivial portion of it is unintelligible codes that I do not> understand.They aren't required to give you credit either. Seems fair to me. But I doubt they'd ever ask the question. Have you ever heard of anyone being asked that? Do you think it is a common practice for, say, mortgages?Sign a statement that all the information is factual? Yes.
    And what does this statement say about *WHAT* information is factual?
    (Applications I'm familiar with ask you to state that information
    on the *application* is factual. That part is easy.) If they expect
    me to verify information on a credit report, they have to state
    *WHICH* copy of the credit report (which of the Big Three, and I
    don't see how you can verify an unspecified version of a report
    which is by its nature updated frequently).
    If they findit's not, there might be fraud involved.
    If I signed a statement that I verified my credit report as accurate,
    one that didn't specify *WHICH* copy of the report, and they then
    found errors on *their* copy, all I have to do is produce a credit
    report without errors from around the time of the applicaton, say
    that's the one I verified, and I'm off the hook for any errors.
    In any case, if you don't signwhatever they put in front of you, no loan.
    Have you ever actually seen a request by a lender (any lender) to
    state that your *credit report* (not information on the application,
    even if it largely duplicates your credit report) is accurate? One
    that didn't specify a specific copy, probably attached to the
    paperwork you're asked to sign?

    Lenders are smarter than that. If they want me to verify that my
    credit report is accurate, they'll give me a copy of the credit
    report they want me to verify, and probably have me at least
    initial the copy I checked along with a statement that I verified
    *THAT COPY*.

    Gordon L. Burditt

    Leave a comment:


  • Gordon Burditt
    replied
    FICO secrets

    >>>>>At least if a
    >>creditor or anyone had you state that you believe all the information>>in your report to be accurate.>> I doubt that will ever be an issue. No creditor has ever been willing> to show me my credit report, even when I asked and said that if I was> getting charged a fee for it, I should be able to get a copy of it.> They will tell me how I can get my own copy, but not show me the same> copy THEY got.Why should they? Thay paid for it, you didn't. In fact they may neversee it, rather only the results. Then how can I possibly state that I believe all the information in THE REPORT THEY GOT is accurate? If I get my own copy before or after (or both) they did, it might have different errors in it. Also, what I see of my credit report is different from what they see.Could have, but the moon could really be made from green cheese too. Thefact is that you don't own that report.
    But if they expect me to say there's no errors in it, how can I
    possibly do that if they won't show me the report to verify?

    It is often stated by credit reporting agencies that the report YOU
    see is not the same as the one the a mortgage company sees
    (intentionally on the credit reporting agency's part). In particular,
    some of the inqueries you see on your report aren't shown to the
    mortgage company (or at least that's what they want you to believe).
    Also, you have at least THREE credit reports, and just because
    there's no errors in the one *I* looked at doesn't mean there's no
    errors in the one *THEY* looked at. And if we get the reports at
    different times, there could be different errors. Updates are
    happening all the time. It's likely to be once a month per account
    you have open, although the update might not change anything (balance
    still 0, still no late payments, ...).
    > Also, I would never sign such a statement anyway, on the grounds that> a nontrivial portion of it is unintelligible codes that I do not> understand.They aren't required to give you credit either. Seems fair to me. But I doubt they'd ever ask the question. Have you ever heard of anyone being asked that? Do you think it is a common practice for, say, mortgages?Sign a statement that all the information is factual? Yes.
    And what does this statement say about *WHAT* information is factual?
    (Applications I'm familiar with ask you to state that information
    on the *application* is factual. That part is easy.) If they expect
    me to verify information on a credit report, they have to state
    *WHICH* copy of the credit report (which of the Big Three, and I
    don't see how you can verify an unspecified version of a report
    which is by its nature updated frequently).
    If they findit's not, there might be fraud involved.
    If I signed a statement that I verified my credit report as accurate,
    one that didn't specify *WHICH* copy of the report, and they then
    found errors on *their* copy, all I have to do is produce a credit
    report without errors from around the time of the applicaton, say
    that's the one I verified, and I'm off the hook for any errors.
    In any case, if you don't signwhatever they put in front of you, no loan.
    Have you ever actually seen a request by a lender (any lender) to
    state that your *credit report* (not information on the application,
    even if it largely duplicates your credit report) is accurate? One
    that didn't specify a specific copy, probably attached to the
    paperwork you're asked to sign?

    Lenders are smarter than that. If they want me to verify that my
    credit report is accurate, they'll give me a copy of the credit
    report they want me to verify, and probably have me at least
    initial the copy I checked along with a statement that I verified
    *THAT COPY*.

    Gordon L. Burditt

    Leave a comment:


  • keith
    replied
    FICO secrets

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 05:50:42 +0000, Gordon Burditt wrote:
    >> I disagree. It is up to you to make sure that the information is>> *FAVORABLE TO YOU*, not accurate. You are under no obligation to>> correct errors you believe are in your favor.>>I'm not sure the legality of that statement. I'm not disputing it, but>I could see how it might be construed to be fraud. I don't see how it could be fraud unless I put the error in there in the first place.If you state that an entry is false whan you know it isn't, that's fraud.Your only recourse is to attempt to make the record factual. Agreed, disputing an entry that you know to be accurate, then applying for credit is fraud. But failure to dispute an entry you know to be inaccurate but think is more favorable to you (unlikely to happen, but it can) is not (unless you state that it is accurate).
    Ok, a lie by omission isn't fraud unless you're asked to sign that the
    record is factual (which in this case you're not).
    >At least if a>creditor or anyone had you state that you believe all the information>in your report to be accurate. I doubt that will ever be an issue. No creditor has ever been willing to show me my credit report, even when I asked and said that if I was getting charged a fee for it, I should be able to get a copy of it. They will tell me how I can get my own copy, but not show me the same copy THEY got.Why should they? Thay paid for it, you didn't. In fact they may neversee it, rather only the results. Then how can I possibly state that I believe all the information in THE REPORT THEY GOT is accurate? If I get my own copy before or after (or both) they did, it might have different errors in it. Also, what I see of my credit report is different from what they see.
    Could have, but the moon could really be made from green cheese too. The
    fact is that you don't own that report.
    Also, I would never sign such a statement anyway, on the grounds that a nontrivial portion of it is unintelligible codes that I do not understand.They aren't required to give you credit either. Seems fair to me. But I doubt they'd ever ask the question. Have you ever heard of anyone being asked that? Do you think it is a common practice for, say, mortgages?
    Sign a statement that all the information is factual? Yes. If they find
    it's not, there might be fraud involved. In any case, if you don't sign
    whatever they put in front of you, no loan.
    For the record, I do not believe that there has been an accurate credit report in the entire history of the world.I think you're an idiot. I hope you don't regret taking someone else's credit report too seriously.
    Parsing error: Too many negatives

    --
    Keith

    Leave a comment:


  • keith
    replied
    FICO secrets

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 05:50:42 +0000, Gordon Burditt wrote:
    >> I disagree. It is up to you to make sure that the information is>> *FAVORABLE TO YOU*, not accurate. You are under no obligation to>> correct errors you believe are in your favor.>>I'm not sure the legality of that statement. I'm not disputing it, but>I could see how it might be construed to be fraud. I don't see how it could be fraud unless I put the error in there in the first place.If you state that an entry is false whan you know it isn't, that's fraud.Your only recourse is to attempt to make the record factual. Agreed, disputing an entry that you know to be accurate, then applying for credit is fraud. But failure to dispute an entry you know to be inaccurate but think is more favorable to you (unlikely to happen, but it can) is not (unless you state that it is accurate).
    Ok, a lie by omission isn't fraud unless you're asked to sign that the
    record is factual (which in this case you're not).
    >At least if a>creditor or anyone had you state that you believe all the information>in your report to be accurate. I doubt that will ever be an issue. No creditor has ever been willing to show me my credit report, even when I asked and said that if I was getting charged a fee for it, I should be able to get a copy of it. They will tell me how I can get my own copy, but not show me the same copy THEY got.Why should they? Thay paid for it, you didn't. In fact they may neversee it, rather only the results. Then how can I possibly state that I believe all the information in THE REPORT THEY GOT is accurate? If I get my own copy before or after (or both) they did, it might have different errors in it. Also, what I see of my credit report is different from what they see.
    Could have, but the moon could really be made from green cheese too. The
    fact is that you don't own that report.
    Also, I would never sign such a statement anyway, on the grounds that a nontrivial portion of it is unintelligible codes that I do not understand.They aren't required to give you credit either. Seems fair to me. But I doubt they'd ever ask the question. Have you ever heard of anyone being asked that? Do you think it is a common practice for, say, mortgages?
    Sign a statement that all the information is factual? Yes. If they find
    it's not, there might be fraud involved. In any case, if you don't sign
    whatever they put in front of you, no loan.
    For the record, I do not believe that there has been an accurate credit report in the entire history of the world.I think you're an idiot. I hope you don't regret taking someone else's credit report too seriously.
    Parsing error: Too many negatives

    --
    Keith

    Leave a comment:


  • elaich
    replied
    FICO secrets

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:19:24 GMT, Andrew White
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and tolenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is theOpen/Closed indicator that is used.
    Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn't
    mean it's used by FICO.

    Leave a comment:


  • elaich
    replied
    FICO secrets

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:19:24 GMT, Andrew White
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and tolenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is theOpen/Closed indicator that is used.
    Just because the Open/Closed indicator is used by Fannie Mae doesn't
    mean it's used by FICO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrew White
    replied
    FICO secrets

    [email protected] wrote:
    I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends ondeep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion aboutthe details of such secrets.Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a widemargin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies thatcheck our credit tend to disclose what score system they use?Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drasticallydifferently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for thesole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the differencebetween closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight.But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicateswhether an account is open or closed? Or what if that informationtends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equallyreasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondaryindicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? Theymight parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions aboutinactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actualopen/closed status of the account.How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formulain detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. Andthe more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popularopinion might be the most speculative of all.
    FICO scores are almost universally used in the mortgage industry. My
    company - Fannie Mae - is actually to thank for it.

    Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and to
    lenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is the
    Open/Closed indicator that is used.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrew White
    replied
    FICO secrets

    [email protected] wrote:
    I'm always suspicious of a company whose business model depends ondeep secrecy. And I'm even more suspicious of popular opinion aboutthe details of such secrets.Popular opinion is that FICO is the most widely used score, by a widemargin. But how does popular opinion know that? Do companies thatcheck our credit tend to disclose what score system they use?Popular opinion is that FICO treats open accounts drasticallydifferently than closed accounts. That opinion might exist for thesole reason that it's pretty ****ed obvious that the differencebetween closed and open accounts should be given a lot of weight.But what if FICO has trouble parsing the information that indicateswhether an account is open or closed? Or what if that informationtends to not be consistent and reliable? Wouldn't it be equallyreasonable for FICO to parse something easier, as a secondaryindicator, and ignore the actual indication of open/closed? Theymight parse the date of last activity, and make assumptions aboutinactive accounts being less important, while ignoring the actualopen/closed status of the account.How would anyone know such things, unless they knew the FICO formulain detail? Without that knowledge, it's all just speculation. Andthe more research I do on FICO scores, the more I think popularopinion might be the most speculative of all.
    FICO scores are almost universally used in the mortgage industry. My
    company - Fannie Mae - is actually to thank for it.

    Credit bureau data doesn't need to be "parsed". It comes to us and to
    lenders as separate data elements already. So, yes, it is the
    Open/Closed indicator that is used.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X