I have sold my vehicle to a buyer. He provided a $5,000 deposit and as
a sign of good faith I delivered the vehicle to his house and kept the
keys. Once I had the title I would deliver the title to him for the
balance of the money. As I was driving to deliver the title he called
and cancelled the deal. The situation as is stands now is that I have
the keys to the vehicle, the title to the vehicle and the $5,000
deposit. He has the car in his garage. I am living in Massachusetts.
Am I entitled to keep the deposit and retrieve the vehicle? If he
refuses to relinquish the car, what are my options? Must I call the
police at this point and report it stolen?

On 25 Jul 2003 07:46:25 -0700 DerekP <dpodgorni@hotmail.com> whittled these words: I have sold my vehicle to a buyer. He provided a $5,000 deposit and as a sign of good faith I delivered the vehicle to his house and kept the keys.

What kind of paperwork or evidence of your agreement existed at this
point?
Once I had the title I would deliver the title to him for the balance of the money. As I was driving to deliver the title he called and cancelled the deal. The situation as is stands now is that I have the keys to the vehicle, the title to the vehicle and the $5,000 deposit. He has the car in his garage. I am living in Massachusetts. Am I entitled to keep the deposit and retrieve the vehicle?

It depends upon the contract law in your state and the nature of your
agreement. In many states contracts over a certain dollar value must be
in writing. In most of those states the dollar value here would qualify.
States also may require contracts of a certain nature to be in writing,
regardless of dollar value. And finally it is entirely possible, indeed
likely, that specific situations such as deposits will be subject to
state rules governing how terms of deposits are created and enforced.
If he refuses to relinquish the car, what are my options? Must I call the police at this point and report it stolen?

The car is not stolen. You delivered it. Its a contract issue. If you
report it stolen you could find yourself facing criminal charges. If you
offer return of the deposit AND he refuses to relinquish the car that
*might* be a different issue. Please don't try to recover the car AND
keep the deposit without consulting with an attorney. You could get
yourself into a very expensive position.

Without knowing anything about the law in your state good legal advice
isn't possible. However, I can offer good practical advice. Return the
deposit. Maybe retain $100 or so to cover your costs in driving back and
forth and readvertising the vehicle. Its just not a good scenario for a
likely win on your part.

Diane Blackman

"DerekP" <dpodgorni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e33f96db.0307250646.770af70e@posting.google.c om... I have sold my vehicle to a buyer. He provided a $5,000 deposit and as a sign of good faith I delivered the vehicle to his house and kept the keys. Once I had the title I would deliver the title to him for the balance of the money. As I was driving to deliver the title he called and cancelled the deal. The situation as is stands now is that I have the keys to the vehicle, the title to the vehicle and the $5,000 deposit. He has the car in his garage. I am living in Massachusetts. Am I entitled to keep the deposit and retrieve the vehicle? If he refuses to relinquish the car, what are my options? Must I call the police at this point and report it stolen?

First, don't report it stolen, because it wasn't stolen. If he refuses to
relinquish the car, you may want to discuss with a lawyer whether
you have a claim for "conversion" that is worth pursuing.

If he refuses to relinquish the car, your principal (but not necessarily
only) options are (1) to keep the deposit and sue him for the balance
of the sale price, or (2) to return the deposit (in order to get the car)
and sue him for the total sale price. If you choose the second option,
be sure to tell him, in writing, that is what you are going to do, in
order to protect against the claim that you agreed to not sue if he
returned the car to you.

"DerekP" <dpodgorni@hotmail.com> wrote Am I entitled to keep the deposit and retrieve the vehicle? If he refuses to relinquish the car, what are my options? Must I call the police at this point and report it stolen?

Go to an automobile repossession company; repo-men. They'll have a form to
sign and have notarized (generally in the office itself).
Basic charge is probably around $150.
The only way it'll go to court is if he complains- then you can fight it
out, but you'll be in possession of the car.
Return his deposit or be prepared to show why you want to keep it.

Chas

"DerekP" <dpodgorni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e33f96db.0307250646.770af70e@posting.google.c om... I have sold my vehicle to a buyer. He provided a $5,000 deposit and as a sign of good faith I delivered the vehicle to his house and kept the keys. Once I had the title I would deliver the title to him for the balance of the money. As I was driving to deliver the title he called and cancelled the deal. The situation as is stands now is that I have the keys to the vehicle, the title to the vehicle and the $5,000 deposit. He has the car in his garage. I am living in Massachusetts. Am I entitled to keep the deposit and retrieve the vehicle? If he refuses to relinquish the car, what are my options? Must I call the police at this point and report it stolen?

Legal advice is obtained by hiring an attorney.
This is not legal advice.

Technically as you own the title and he has not paid the full price, you own
the vehicle.
You should at least make an attempt to talk with him first and get the car
back from him on good terms.
Hand him back his deposit in full, request the vehicle.
If he refuses, then you should make contact with the police and ask them
what their best plan of approach on this situation would be from their
standpoint.
Do not file charges just yet.
You may then want to go back to the person, with a police officer, and
request a second time.
If the man refuses then, the officer can explain what the legal consequences
are for refusing to do so.
If he still refuses, you could possibly file "grand theft auto" charges, but
don't hold your breath on that.
Since he's terminating the proposed contract early, you may not be able to
keep any of the deposit.

Besides, you were a dumbass for letting him have the vehicle to soon.

Do you think wal-mart would let you buy something and walk out of the store
with only a partial payment?
Do you think a dealership would do this?
Uh-huh. Sure they do.

"tomG" <tmg@jorsm.com> wrote First, don't report it stolen, because it wasn't stolen. If he refuses to relinquish the car, you may want to discuss with a lawyer whether you have a claim for "conversion" that is worth pursuing.

Take the car- use a repo company to do it. Let *him* go talk to a lawyer.
Don't take his deposit money, but you can return only the balance after you
have to initiate procedures to recover the vehicle and accrue costs. He may
have forfeited his deposit entirely, but I don't know the specifics of your
deal.
Don't worry about a contract, he's in possession of a motor vehicle to which
*you* own title. It is *his* responsibility to prove his interest in it. If
a contract is needed, it's *his* responsibility to produce it.
And, if the repo guys simply tear his garage door off with a tow truck, and
drag the vehicle away sideways, his beef is with them.

Chas

dpodgorni@hotmail.com (DerekP) wrote:
I have sold my vehicle to a buyer. He provided a $5,000 deposit and asa sign of good faith I delivered the vehicle to his house and kept thekeys. Once I had the title I would deliver the title to him for thebalance of the money. As I was driving to deliver the title he calledand cancelled the deal. The situation as is stands now is that I havethe keys to the vehicle, the title to the vehicle and the $5,000deposit. He has the car in his garage. I am living in Massachusetts.Am I entitled to keep the deposit and retrieve the vehicle? If herefuses to relinquish the car, what are my options? Must I call thepolice at this point and report it stolen?


The first thing you say is that you "sold" your vehicle to a guy.
Now you want to report it stolen?
I don't understand.... who's vehicle do you think it is?

-Merlin

dpodgorni@hotmail.com (DerekP) wrote in message news:<e33f96db.0307250646.770af70e@posting.google.com>... I have sold my vehicle to a buyer. He provided a $5,000 deposit and as a sign of good faith I delivered the vehicle to his house and kept the keys. Once I had the title I would deliver the title to him for the balance of the money. As I was driving to deliver the title he called and cancelled the deal. The situation as is stands now is that I have the keys to the vehicle, the title to the vehicle and the $5,000 deposit. He has the car in his garage. I am living in Massachusetts. Am I entitled to keep the deposit and retrieve the vehicle? If he refuses to relinquish the car, what are my options? Must I call the police at this point and report it stolen?

What did your agreement say about the deposit? If it says you can
treat the deposit as "liquidated damages", you might be able to
retrieve the car and keep the deposit. But $5,000 is an awful lot of
deposit money, and he could easily make a case that it was
unreasonable -- unless the car is at least as valuable as, say, a
cherry-condition late-model Mercedes-Benz S-class.

More likely, your agreement says nothing about the deposit, or it was
just a handshake and a check -- in that case, you have a right to your
damages from his breach, and nothing more. It's up to you to retrieve
the car, then advertise and sell it again. At that point, you have
damages of your cost to retrieve and cover by reselling the car, plus
or minus the difference in the price you get for selling it the second
time. You could legitimately withhold that from the deposit and refund
the rest, or make a claim for the balance if it's more.

Mass. law will govern how you must go about retrieving the car if he
won't cooperate. Often you can get the sheriff or a private repo agent
to do the dirty work.

Me, I'd offer him a refund of all but maybe $500 to induce him to give
back the car without a fuss, and let him know that I'll be refunding
the rest or billing him for the balance once I've resold the car.

--
Not a lawyer,

Chris Green

"Richard" <anom@anom> wrote Hand him back his deposit in full, request the vehicle.

repo the vehicle, negotiate any return of the deposit. *He* is the one who
defaulted, probably in bad faith, screw'im.
If he refuses, then you should make contact with the police and ask them what their best plan of approach on this situation would be from their standpoint.

Civil contract- no need to involve the criminal authorities and they don't
really have any useful information about the subject.
Since he's terminating the proposed contract early, you may not be able to keep any of the deposit.

Sure you can.
There's a whole thing about taking the vehicle and using it during the time
of default, costs of recovering your property held in title, secure storage
fees; all kinds of good stuff.
Besides, you were a dumbass for letting him have the vehicle to soon.

Nah; standard procedure- that's why you keep the title. It doesn't matter
what the guy says, he doesn't have the title and the vehicle is not his.
Do you think wal-mart would let you buy something and walk out of the
store with only a partial payment?

If it's something that needs a title to prove proper ownership, maybe.
Do you think a dealership would do this?

All the time- check out 'Buy Here, Pay Here' car lots.
Uh-huh. Sure they do.

Uh-huh. Sure they do.

Chas

"Christopher Green" <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote Me, I'd offer him a refund of all but maybe $500 to induce him to give back the car without a fuss, and let him know that I'll be refunding the rest or billing him for the balance once I've resold the car.

Take the car; bottom line.
Everything after that is negotiable from the posture of having both the car
and the deposit.
Do not warn him; cars are very often mobile and easily hidden.

Chas

"Chas" <c.clements@XXXcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:m0KdneUyRLhIDLyiU-KYuQ@comcast.com... "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote Hand him back his deposit in full, request the vehicle. repo the vehicle, negotiate any return of the deposit. *He* is the one who defaulted, probably in bad faith, screw'im. If he refuses, then you should make contact with the police and ask them what their best plan of approach on this situation would be from their standpoint. Civil contract- no need to involve the criminal authorities and they don't really have any useful information about the subject. Since he's terminating the proposed contract early, you may not be able
to keep any of the deposit. Sure you can. There's a whole thing about taking the vehicle and using it during the
time of default, costs of recovering your property held in title, secure
storage fees; all kinds of good stuff. Besides, you were a dumbass for letting him have the vehicle to soon. Nah; standard procedure- that's why you keep the title. It doesn't matter what the guy says, he doesn't have the title and the vehicle is not his.

Bingo! You just shot yourself in the foot.
He does not own title to the property, he has no right to it, therefor he
must return it or face the penalty.
Try your method with the bank when you missed a payment and the repo man
comes to take the car away.
What was that you said about not owning the title? Ding dong. Hello. Anybody
home?

Do you think wal-mart would let you buy something and walk out of the store with only a partial payment? If it's something that needs a title to prove proper ownership, maybe. Do you think a dealership would do this? All the time- check out 'Buy Here, Pay Here' car lots.

Most of them are rip off artists.
Uh-huh. Sure they do. Uh-huh. Sure they do. Chas

"Chas" <c.clements@XXXcomcast.net> wrote:"Merlin" <mag@camelot.org> wrote
The first thing you say is that you "sold" your vehicle to a guy. Now you want to report it stolen? I don't understand.... who's vehicle do you think it is?
If the title has not been transferred, and the title holder thinks, thinksmind you, that the vehicle has been converted to someone else's use, he canreport it 'stolen'.When you get to the police station, they ask you how it was stolen, andthere's a difference between a street thief and a guy who converts by fraud.Ask the DMV; it belongs to the guy that holds title.Chas

I was addressing the OP with an important question.
I do not agree with your solutions to this problem, Chas.
Some of what you are suggesting appears to me unlawful.
Advising or encouraging others to commit unlawful acts is
unwise but you might ask Larry the ADA for his view of it, he
knows and is nice enough to answer general questions
on that kind of thing.

The practical solution to this matter is to arrange a swap of
the $5000 for the vehicle and call it a wash. If the other person
declines, consult a local lawyer regarding further actions..

-Merlin

"Chas" <c.clements@XXXcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<3n6dnW8QwOs1AbyiU-KYvA@comcast.com>... "Christopher Green" <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote Me, I'd offer him a refund of all but maybe $500 to induce him to give back the car without a fuss, and let him know that I'll be refunding the rest or billing him for the balance once I've resold the car. Take the car; bottom line. Everything after that is negotiable from the posture of having both the car and the deposit. Do not warn him; cars are very often mobile and easily hidden. Chas

Repossession has to be accomplished without breach of the peace,
burglary, or the like. If he keeps it garaged and will not let you in,
it may take a court order to get it back. Best to find a way to settle
it amicably, even if this means giving back a lot of the deposit. If
there's no amicable settlement in the cards, then is the time to bring
in the sheriff or the repo man.

--
Not a lawyer,

Chris Green

"DerekP" <dpodgorni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e33f96db.0307250646.770af70e@posting.google.c om... I have sold my vehicle to a buyer. He provided a $5,000 deposit and as a sign of good faith I delivered the vehicle to his house and kept the keys. Once I had the title I would deliver the title to him for the balance of the money. As I was driving to deliver the title he called and cancelled the deal. The situation as is stands now is that I have the keys to the vehicle, the title to the vehicle and the $5,000 deposit. He has the car in his garage. I am living in Massachusetts. Am I entitled to keep the deposit and retrieve the vehicle? If he refuses to relinquish the car, what are my options? Must I call the police at this point and report it stolen?

I am not sure of the legal positions of the parties and am not familiar with
the law of MA, so am not claiming the below is necesaarily accurate. But
your post raises some important issues and some of the responses here may be
inaccurate and could cause you trouble.

First, as I see it from your thumbnail sketch of the facts, you may have
already transferred "equitable" title to the vehicle and now only hold naked
legal title to the vehicle. As such (and for other reasons), I don't think
you have a valid argument that it is a stolen vehicle. it also might affect
the remedies you have.

Also, whether you still own the vehicle or not, the persistent advice that
you should simply repo the vehicle could give rise to problems, too. In TX,
article 9 of the UCC governs repossessions and the law may very well be
similar in MA. Here, I believe that to repossess the propoerty, you must
first have a security interest. Further, you have to accomplish the repo
with breaching the peace (so no tearing his garage door off). As bad as you
think you've been treated, be careful with any self-help measures because
they can backfire if done improperly.

"Zen Cohen" <aturny@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:D3mUa.107163$TJ.6528860@twister.austin.rr.com ...
.. Further, you have to accomplish the repo with breaching the peace ...

if it's not obvious, that should be "without breaching the peace"

"Merlin" <mag@camelot.org> wrote I was addressing the OP with an important question. I do not agree with your solutions to this problem, Chas.

Ok; there are always at least two good solutions to any such problem.
Some of what you are suggesting appears to me unlawful.

Nope; been in the business for over twenty-five years, although less as of
late.
Advising or encouraging others to commit unlawful acts is unwise but you might ask Larry the ADA for his view of it, he knows and is nice enough to answer general questions on that kind of thing.

Please identify what you think is illegal.
'Ripping the door off of his garage' was an hyperbole, although some has
been known to do it, as it were ;-)
The practical solution to this matter is to arrange a swap of the $5000 for the vehicle and call it a wash.

The guy put the car in his garage and refused to pay the balance of the
price of the titled vehicle.
Repo the stinkin' car.
If he thinks he has some money coming back, he'll surely call. You can be as
charitable and compassionate as you care to be when you have both the car
and the money.
If the other person declines, consult a local lawyer regarding further actions..

No need to pay for a lawyer's time to tell you to get the car back first.
He ought to go talk to a repo guy; it's free.

Chas

"Christopher Green" <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote Repossession has to be accomplished without breach of the peace, burglary, or the like.

Sure, that's why it's best left to the skilled operator.
If he keeps it garaged and will not let you in, it may take a court order to get it back.

sure; law and order all the way.
Best to find a way to settle it amicably, even if this means giving back a lot of the deposit.

Scout the car before he knows what's going on; take it if you can.
Better to have a pro do it so it doesn't look personal or vindictive.
If there's no amicable settlement in the cards, then is the time to bring in the sheriff or the repo man.

Sheriff's are pretty much a dud; really inconvenient.
They *are* cheaper than a repo guy.

Chas

"Zen Cohen" <aturny@hotmail.com> wrote......Further, you have to accomplish the repo with breaching the peace (so no tearing his garage door off).

I guess I should have put a little smiley face on it-
Best you leave it to a skilled repo agent.
They *have* been known to rip the garage door off, but they provide a legal
buffer for the owner in such cases. It can actually be pretty funny when you
have an asshole that deserves that treatment and gets it.
He shoulda paid for the stinkin' car.

Chas

Chas wrote:
Zen Cohen wrote:
... Further, you have to accomplish the repo with breaching the peace (so no tearing his garage door off).

[Zen corrected this to "WITHOUT breaching the peace"]
I guess I should have put a little smiley face on it-
Best you leave it to a skilled repo agent.
They *have* been known to rip the garage door off, but they provide a legal buffer for the owner in such cases. It can actually be pretty funny when you have an asshole that deserves that treatment and gets it. He shoulda paid for the stinkin' car.

Repo agents may NOT "rip the garage door off". Generally, they can only take
the car when it is in an open spot and not blocked by other vehicles. If it
is inside a closed garage, they may NOT enter the garage, even if it is
unlocked. And if another vehicle is blocking their access to the target
vehicle, they are SOL.
--
Theodore A. Kaldis
kaldis@worldnet.att.net

"Theodore A. Kaldis" <kaldis@worldnet.att.net> wrote Repo agents may NOT "rip the garage door off". Generally, they can only
take the car when it is in an open spot and not blocked by other vehicles. If
it is inside a closed garage, they may NOT enter the garage, even if it is unlocked. And if another vehicle is blocking their access to the target vehicle, they are SOL.

If you mean that they may not rip your garage door off with permission from
someone, sure.
I said it in levity; thought that would be obvious.
Now, as to whether people have got their garage door ripped off, their car
repoed, and no recourse when they reported it to the police; sure they have.
Same way with a blocked car- or pulling a car out sideways, or dragging it
down the street with the steering locked.
Unless you mount a 24hr. guard/lookout on your car, anything you say about
it is fantasy.

Chas

Thnx to all who responded including a direct email. The problem has
been resolved sans reposession (thnx anyway Chas). The threat of
litigation, i.e. lawsuit (on the grounds of specific performance more
or less), was enough to convince the buyer to forfeit $1,250 of the
original deposit in return for the vehicle. The exchange wasn't
pretty, but it's over with and we all move on with our lives now.

Derek