Say we say if you use service and in my site and put your credit card
we will charge your credit card for the service amount. Is it,
A tort? A crime? Neither?

We know your credit card number. If you steal anything from us we will
charge your credit card for the dollar amount. Is it,
A tort? A crime? Neither?

We say if you do not give me your stuff I will kill you. Is it,
A tort? A crime? Neither?

If you do not give me my stuff back (to thief) I will kill you. Is it,
A tort? A crime? Neither?

If you do not give me your stuff I will post your conviction record
all over the internet. Is it,
A tort? A crime? Neither?

If you do not return my property I will post your conviction record
all over the internet. Is it,
A tort? A crime? Neither?

If you do not return my property I will sue you. Is it,
A tort? A crime? Neither?

If you do not return my property you will go to hell. Is it,
A tort? A crime? Neither?

What are the rules? When some threaten is a crime? When is it a tort?
When is it neither?

On 12 Jul 2003, amozpuu@yahoo.com (Amoz Puu) wrote:
Say we say if you use service and in my site and put your credit card we will charge your credit card for the service amount. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? We know your credit card number. If you steal anything from us we will charge your credit card for the dollar amount. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? We say if you do not give me your stuff I will kill you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? If you do not give me my stuff back (to thief) I will kill you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? If you do not give me your stuff I will post your conviction record all over the internet. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? If you do not return my property I will post your conviction record all over the internet. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?If you do not return my property I will sue you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? If you do not return my property you will go to hell. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?What are the rules? When some threaten is a crime? When is it a tort? When is it neither?

Your query suffers from what might be termed "The Casuist Fallacy" --
here, an illustration of the almost always incorrect assumption that
some sort of comprehensive catalog or listing of what, however, are
factual abstractions will be able to provide meaningful information
about what (in your posting/query) are themselves just conclusory
legalisms (i.e., "tort" or "crime").

A "crime" is some particular/statutorily-defined conduct proscribed by
a duly enacted legislative act (a "law" or "statute") as prosecutable
and punishable criminally.

Except to the extent that the accusation of a crime might have
moral/political suasive impact (or, perhaps, conversely might provide
the occasion to seek redress for the "tort" of defamation), whether
This-or-That act is (or isn't) arguably a "crime" is almost always a
moot question, unless a prosecutor having jurisidction decides to
investigate/prosecute; since, with only a tiny number of exceptions in
some jurisdictions, whether to prosecute criminally is a decision
relegated to the essentially exclusive/non-reviewable discretion of
such an officer.

Some of the acts you summarize would be prosecutable as such in some
jurisdictions (especially if coupled with other acts which, because of
your casuistic approach to the questions you pose, you haven't
described), if the relevant/applicable prosecutor decided to prosecute
(and many U.S. states and, for some kinds of such communications, some
federal statutes criminalize and therefore make criminall prosecutable
some kinds of "threats").

A "tort" is an act which some combination of statutory or decisional
law of a particular jurisdiction relevant to the persons in question
(e.g., because they are present in or did some material act within the
state) makes suable and redressable civilly, in most cases if (but
only if) the act(s) in issue result(s) in (provable) dollar-measurable
damages to the plaintiff, although a (comparatively tiny) number of
certain kinds of (mostly: deliberate) "torts" are suable in some
places without regard the amount of damage in fact and, in a small
number of those, without regard to whether there has been any damage
in fact at all (e.g., "assault" or defamation "per se").

Some of the acts you summarize would be suable as a "tort" in some
jursidctions (especially if coupled with other acts which, because of
your casuistic approach to the questions you pose, you haven't
described).

amozpuu@yahoo.com (Amoz Puu) wrote in message news:<e38237ec.0307201657.4c3b21bc@posting.google.com>... Those are good answers. I also need an actual estimate of what the answer is. For example, Say we say if you use service and in my site and put your credit card we will charge your credit card for the service amount. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

Maybe, maybe not, maybe something else. Not enough information to make
any kind of useful conclusion.
Saying that trying to steal from vending machine can result in tipping and death, as far as I know is also not a crime because everyone else do it openly. So, is this also what you think?

Maybe, maybe not, maybe it's something else. Not enough information.
How is your situation like stealing from a vending machine? If it
isn't just like stealing from a vending machine, what does that do to
your analogy?
I am thinking to threaten the thief to testify against their acomlices by posting their conviction record all over the internet if they fail to do that. However, I will spare the first thief that surrender and give info about the rest of his gang.

Maybe they'll ignore it, Maybe it'll get you kneecapped. It sounds
like you don't know anything about the people you're dealing with, or
how they'll react.
It's been 3 years. If my stuff is stolen by 3-4 people, chance is those 3-4 people already have grudge against each other that I can use. They will think even if they do not report to cops, their friend will.

Maybe, but maybe they don't care anymore. Maybe the statute of
limitations has run and your charges will not stick. Maybe what they
did wasn't stealing.
The thing is, if I make this kind of announcement, I can get fined again for blackmailing, etc. Now I want to know what will happen.

Maybe, or maybe it would be extortion or libel or invasion of privacy.
Or maybe people would just ignore it.

Nospam is right, you are indulging in high abstract casuistry when the
law deals in concrete cases. Nobody could conclude anything from what
you post; it would be like trying to paint in a fog bank.

--
Not a lawyer,

Chris Green

Amoz Puu wrote:
Say we say if you use service and in my site and put your credit card we will charge your credit card for the service amount. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

Arguably you can probably run a charge. The only thing that matters is
whether they dispute it.
We know your credit card number. If you steal anything from us we will charge your credit card for the dollar amount. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

First sue them as in most states you can sue for multiple times the amount
of the material shoplifted plus court costs and attorney's fees. Probably
it could be considered an invitation by the seller to allow the shoplifter
to "run an account" in which they just take whatever they want the
retailer bills them for it. I'd say it's weak to use that if I was a
merchant without the judgment first.

We say if you do not give me your stuff I will kill you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

Probably considered a terroristic threat under the USA Patriot Act which
can cause them to revoke your citizenship and throw you out of the
country. I'm only partially kidding here.
If you do not give me my stuff back (to thief) I will kill you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

Probably extortion, a serious crime. See also USA Patriot act citizenship
revocations.
If you do not give me your stuff I will post your conviction record all over the internet. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

Definitely extortion. A crime. Possible a tort.
If you do not return my property I will post your conviction record all over the internet. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

Definitely extortion.
If you do not return my property I will sue you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

Perfectly legal and the exact right thing.
If you do not return my property you will go to hell. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

A statement of opinion, since you're incapable of doing so - unless you
plan to kill them. Now if you're a minister it might be considered you
have an 'in' with a certain entity who has that power and might be
extortion! But if you did have that power it would be an Act of God which
you're not responsible for!
What are the rules? When some threaten is a crime? When is it a tort? When is it neither?

That's why lawyers make so much money. They get to tell you the answers
after charging you so much you can't afford to use the answer they give
you.

--
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything it is
that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us."

Amoz Puu wrote:
Those are good answers. I also need an actual estimate of what the answer is. For example, Say we say if you use service and in my site and put your credit card we will charge your credit card for the service amount. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither?

If they apparently gave permission, it is a legitimate transaction. Worst case,
they deny the transaction with their issuer, you get a chargeback and you're out
the charge. Only if there are lots of complaints of you charging people for
non-authorized charges are you likely to be prosecuted.
My estimation is neither. So, what's yours? Saying that trying to steal from vending machine can result in tipping and death, as far as I know is also not a crime because everyone else do it openly. So, is this also what you think?

They put those stickers on the vending machine to avoid civil liability from
some imbecile who shakes or rocks a machine to try to get free product and they
tip it so far it rocks back and falls on them. Even without the sticker, there
is no criminal liability because there was no intent to cause injury, and no
negligence in failing to prevent a machine from killing someone because they
rocked it off its foundation. (Presumably it is not possible to bolt the
machine to the floor; it may have to be moved, it may not be boltable, there may
be no ability to get permission to do so, etc.)
I am thinking to threaten the thief to testify against their acomlices by posting their conviction record all over the internet if they fail to do that. However, I will spare the first thief that surrender and give info about the rest of his gang.

If you're doing that for the purposes of getting someone to turn themselves in,
that's acceptable because if they are a fugitive they would have to show up in
court to sue you, at which point they'd be arrested. Probably not legal to do
if you're trying to collect money they owe you and probably improvident if they
might kill you for spite!
It's been 3 years. If my stuff is stolen by 3-4 people, chance is those 3-4 people already have grudge against each other that I can use. They will think even if they do not report to cops, their friend will. The thing is, if I make this kind of announcement, I can get fined again for blackmailing, etc. Now I want to know what will happen.

Publicly reporting, such as on a website or news program, that someone committed
a crime, is not in itself a crime. Otherwise America's Most Wanted would have
been shut down a long time ago. It may be libel or slander if untrue but it's
not something you can get 'fined' over. If you threaten someone with exposure
unless they pay you money, that's extortion or blackmail.

--
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything it is
that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us."

I want vengeance Paul. Some parasites stole my money costing me $2000
more. Just recently some asshole fraud me $525. I don't care I don't
get my money back. I can earn those back easily now anyway. But I want
justice...

You see, I worked hard for my money, at least in the beginning of my
business. I made all those money under the understanding that all
those money will be mine. If I will not control those money, I won't
bother making it. If I cannot retaliate against those maggot, I feel
like all of my money is waiting for some crooks, tax collector,
thieves, and lawyers, in shining armor to grab my precious wealth.

Without vengeance, my so called right over my properties is contingent
upon thieves choosing not to steal my properties. It scares me so much
that it greatly destroy my motivation to make money. If because of
this demotivational effect I don't make $1 billion, but only say $100
million, then how many starving kids I could have helped or hired,
would stay starve?

If only I can retaliate against vermins that are after money, I will
feel much more protected and motivated to make money. I will feel much
more satisfied. Perhaps, if the world is just enough that they
strongly embrace meritocracy, I will stay on the right side of making
money; that is, productively. If crooks are not punished, we might as
well join their rank.

How do we get our vengeances against those thieves, burglars, robbers
and other vermins?

Paul Robinson <postmaster@paul.washington.dc.us> wrote in message news:<3F2455F1.331F245E@paul.washington.dc.us>... Amoz Puu wrote: Say we say if you use service and in my site and put your credit card we will charge your credit card for the service amount. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? Arguably you can probably run a charge. The only thing that matters is whether they dispute it. We know your credit card number. If you steal anything from us we will charge your credit card for the dollar amount. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? First sue them as in most states you can sue for multiple times the amount of the material shoplifted plus court costs and attorney's fees. Probably it could be considered an invitation by the seller to allow the shoplifter to "run an account" in which they just take whatever they want the retailer bills them for it. I'd say it's weak to use that if I was a merchant without the judgment first. We say if you do not give me your stuff I will kill you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? Probably considered a terroristic threat under the USA Patriot Act which can cause them to revoke your citizenship and throw you out of the country. I'm only partially kidding here. If you do not give me my stuff back (to thief) I will kill you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? Probably extortion, a serious crime. See also USA Patriot act citizenship revocations. If you do not give me your stuff I will post your conviction record all over the internet. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? Definitely extortion. A crime. Possible a tort. If you do not return my property I will post your conviction record all over the internet. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? Definitely extortion. If you do not return my property I will sue you. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? Perfectly legal and the exact right thing. If you do not return my property you will go to hell. Is it, A tort? A crime? Neither? A statement of opinion, since you're incapable of doing so - unless you plan to kill them. Now if you're a minister it might be considered you have an 'in' with a certain entity who has that power and might be extortion! But if you did have that power it would be an Act of God which you're not responsible for! What are the rules? When some threaten is a crime? When is it a tort? When is it neither? That's why lawyers make so much money. They get to tell you the answers after charging you so much you can't afford to use the answer they give you.