Friday, December 19th, 2003
Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael Moore


Dear Friends,

As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids who are in
the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of letters from our
troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different from what we
are seeing on the evening news.

What they are saying to me, often eloquently and in heart-wrenching words, is
that they were lied to -- and this war has nothing to do with the security of
the United States of America.

I've written back and spoken on the phone to many of them and I've asked a few
of them if it would be OK if I posted their letters on my website and they've
said yes. They do so at great personal risk (as they may face disciplinary
measures for exercising their right to free speech). I thank them for their
bravery.

Lance Corporal ___________ of the United States Marine Corps, who returned from
Iraq in September, writes the following:

“You'd be surprised at how many of the guys I talked to in my company and
others believed that the president's scare about Saddam's WMD was a bunch of
bull**** and that the real motivation for this war was only about money. There
was also a lot of crap that many companies, not just marine companies, had to
go through with not getting enough equipment to fulfill their missions when
they crossed the border. It was a miracle that our company did what it did the
two months it was staying in Iraq during the war…. We were promised to go
home on June 8th, and found out that it was a lie and we got stuck doing
missions for an extra three months. Even some of the most radical conservatives
in our company including our company gunnery sergeant got a real bad taste in
their mouth about the Marine corps, and maybe even president Bush.�

Here's what Specialist Mike Prysner of the U.S. Army wrote to me:

“Dear Mike -- I’m writing this without knowing if it’ll ever get to
you…I’m writing it from the trenches of a war (that’s still going on,)
not knowing why I’m here or when I’m leaving. I’ve toppled statues and
vandalized portraits, while wearing an American flag on my sleeve, and
struggling to learn how to understand… I joined the army as soon as I was
eligible – turned down a writing scholarship to a state university, eager to
serve my country, ready to die for the ideals I fell in love with. Two years
later I found myself moments away from a landing onto a pitch black airstrip,
ready to charge into a country I didn't believe I belonged in, with your words
(from the Oscars) repeating in my head. My time in Iraq has always involved
finding things to convince myself that I can be proud of my actions; that I was
a part of something just. But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I
pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation…"

An Army private, still in Iraq and wishing to remain anonymous, writes:

“I would like to tell you how difficult it is to serve under a man who was
never elected. Because he is the president and my boss, I have to be very
careful as to who and what i say about him. This also concerns me a great
deal... to limit the military's voice is to limit exactly what America stands
for... and the greater percentage of us feel completely underpowered. He
continually sets my friends, my family, and several others in a kind of danger
that frightens me beyond belief. I know several other soldiers who feel the
same way and discuss the situation with me on a regular basis.�

Jerry Oliver of the U.S. Army, who has just returned from Baghdad, writes:

“I have just returned home from "Operation Iraqi Freedom". I spent 5 months
in Baghdad, and a total of 3 years in the U.S. Army. I was recently discharged
with Honorable valor and returned to the States only to be horrified by what
I've seen my country turn into. I'm now 22 years old and have discovered
America is such a complicated place to live, and moreover, Americans are almost
oblivious to what's been happening to their country. America has become "1984."
Homeland security is teaching us to spy on one another and forcing us to become
anti-social. Americans are willingly sacrificing our freedoms in the name of
security, the same Freedoms I was willing to put my life on the line for. The
constitution is in jeopardy. As Gen. Tommy Franks said, (broken down of course)
One more terrorist attack and the constitution will hold no meaning.�

And a Specialist in the U.S. Army wrote to me this week about the capture of
Saddam Hussein:

“Wow, 130,000 troops on the ground, nearly 500 deaths and over a billion
dollars a day, but they caught a guy living in a hole. Am I supposed to be
dazzled?�

There are lots more of these, straight from the soldiers who have been on the
front lines and have seen first hand what this war is really about.

I have also heard from their friends and relatives, and from other veterans. A
mother writing on behalf of her son (whose name we have withheld) wrote:

“My son said that this is the worst it's been since the "end" of the war. He
said the troops have been given new rules of engagement, and that they are to
"take out" any persons who aggress on the Americans, even if it results in
"collateral" damage. Unfortunately, he did have to kill someone in self defense
and was told by his commanding officer ‘Good kill.’

"My son replied ‘You just don't get it, do you?’

"Here we are...Vietnam all over again.�

From a 56 year old Navy veteran, relating a conversation he had with a young
man who was leaving for Iraq the next morning:

“What disturbed me most was when I asked him what weapons he carried as a
truck driver. He told me the new M-16, model blah blah blah, stuff never made
sense to me even when I was in. I asked him what kind of side arm they gave him
and his fellow drivers. He explained, "Sir, Reservists are not issued side arms
or flack vests as there was not enough money to outfit all the Reservists, only
Active Personnel". I was appalled to say the least.

"Bush is a jerk agreed, but I can't believe he is this big an Asshole not
providing protection and arms for our troops to fight HIS WAR!�

From a 40-year old veteran of the Marine Corps:

“Why is it that we are forever waving the flag of sovereignty, EXCEPT when it
concerns our financial interests in other sovereign states? What gives us the
right to tell anyone else how they should govern themselves, and live their
lives? Why can't we just lead the world by example? I mean no wonder the world
hates us, who do they get to see? Young assholes in uniforms with guns, and
rich, old, white tourists! Christ, could we put up a worse first impression?�


(To read more from my Iraq mailbag -- and to read these above letters in full
-- go to my website:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/dudewheresmycountry/soldierletters
/index.php)

Remember back in March, once the war had started, how risky it was to make any
anti-war comments to people you knew at work or school or, um, at awards
ceremonies? One thing was for sure -- if you said anything against the war, you
had BETTER follow it up immediately with this line: "BUT I SUPPORT THE TROOPS!"
Failing to do that meant that you were not only unpatriotic and un-American,
your dissent meant that YOU were putting our kids in danger, that YOU might be
the reason they lose their lives. Dissent was only marginally tolerated IF you
pledged your "support" for our soldiers.

Of course, you needed to do no such thing. Why? Because people like you have
ALWAYS supported "the troops." Who are these troops? They are our poor, our
working class. Most of them enlisted because it was about the only place to get
a job or receive the guarantee of a college education. You, my good friends,
have ALWAYS, through your good works, your contributions, your activism, your
votes, SUPPORTED these very kids who come from the other side of the tracks.
You NEVER need to be defensive when it comes to your "support" for the "troops"
-- you are the only ones who have ALWAYS been there for them.

It is Mr. Bush and his filthy rich cronies -- whose sons and daughters will
NEVER see a day in a uniform -- they are the ones who do NOT support our
troops. Our soldiers joined the military and, in doing so, offered to give
THEIR LIVES for US if need be. What a tremendous gift that is -- to be willing
to die so that you and I don't have to! To be willing to shed their blood so
that we may be free. To serve in our place, so that WE don't have to serve.
What a tremendous act of selflessness and generosity! Here they are, these 18,
19, and 20-year olds, most of whom have had to suffer under an unjust economic
system that is set up NOT to benefit THEM -- these kids who have lived their
first 18 years in the worst parts of town, going to the most miserable schools,
living in danger and learning often to go without, watching their parents
struggle to get by and then be humiliated by a system that is always looking to
make life harder for them by cutting their benefits, their education, their
libraries, their fire and police, their future.

And then, after this miserable treatment, these young men and women, instead of
coming after US to demand a more just society, they go and join the army to
DEFEND us and our way of life! It boggles the mind, doesn't it? They not only
deserve our thanks, they deserve a big piece of the pie that we dine on, those
of us who never have to worry about taking a bullet while we fret over which
Palm Pilot to buy the nephew for Christmas.

In fact, all that these kids in the army ask for in return from us is our
promise that we never send them into harm's way unless it is for the DEFENSE of
our nation, to protect us from being killed by "the enemy."

And that promise, my friends, has been broken. It has been broken in the worst
way imaginable. We have sent them into war NOT to defend us, not to protect us,
not to spare the slaughter of innocents or allies. We have sent them to war so
Bush and Company can control the second largest supply of oil in the world. We
have sent them into war so that the Vice President's company can bilk the
government for billions of dollars. We have sent them into war based on a lie
of weapons of mass destruction and the lie that Saddam helped plan 9-11 with
Osama bin Laden.

By doing all of this, Mr. Bush has proven that it is HE who does not support
our troops. It is HE who has put their lives in danger, and it is HE who is
responsible for the nearly 500 American kids who have now died for NO honest,
decent reason whatsoever.

The letters I've received from the friends and relatives of our kids over there
make it clear that they are sick of this war and they are scared to death that
they may never see their loved ones again. It breaks my heart to read these
letters. I wish there was something I could do. I wish there was something we
all could do.

Maybe there is. As Christmas approaches (and Hanukkah begins tonight), I would
like to suggest a few things each of us could do to make the holidays a bit
brighter -- if not safer -- for our troops and their families back home.

1. Many families of soldiers are hurting financially, especially those families
of reservists and National Guard who are gone from the full-time jobs ("just
one weekend a month and we'll pay for your college education!"). You can help
them by contacting the Armed Forces Emergency Relief Funds at
http://www.afrtrust.org/ (ignore the rah-rah military stuff and remember that
this is money that will help out these families who are living in
near-poverty). Each branch has their own relief fund, and the money goes to
help the soldiers and families with paying for food and rent, medical and
dental expenses, personal needs when pay is delayed, and funeral expenses. You
can find more ways to support the troops, from buying groceries for their
families to donating your airline miles so they can get home for a visit, by
going here.

2. Thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed by our bombs and
indiscriminate shooting. We must help protect them and their survivors. You can
do so by supporting the Quakers' drive to provide infant care kits to Iraqi
hospitals—find out more here: http://www.afsc.org/iraq/relief/default.shtm.
You can also help the people of Iraq by supporting the Iraqi Red Crescent
Society—here’s how to contact them: http://www.ifrc.org/address/iq.asp, or
you can make an online donation through the International Federation of the Red
Cross and Red Crescent Societies by going here:
http://www.ifrc.org/HELPNOW/donate/donate_iraq.asp.

3. With 130,000 American men and women currently in Iraq, every community in
this country has either sent someone to fight in this war or is home to family
members of someone fighting in this war. Organize care packages through your
local community groups, activist groups, and churches and send them to these
young men and women. The military no longer accepts packages addressed to
“Any Soldier,� so you’ll have to get their names first. Figure out who
you can help from your area, and send them books, CDs, games, footballs,
gloves, blankets—anything that may make their extended (and extended and
extended…) stay in Iraq a little brighter and more comfortable. You can also
sponsor care packages to American troops through the USO:
http://www.usocares.org/.

4. Want to send a soldier a free book or movie? I’ll start by making mine
available for free to any soldier serving in Iraq. Just send me their name and
address in Iraq (or, if they have already left Iraq, where they are now) and
the first thousand emails I get at soldiers@michaelmoore.com will receive a
free copy of "Dude..." or a free “Bowling…� DVD.

5. Finally, we all have to redouble our efforts to end this war and bring the
troops home. That's the best gift we could give them -- get them out of harm's
way ASAP and insist that the U.S. go back to the UN and have them take over the
rebuilding of Iraq (with the US and Britain funding it, because, well, we have
to pay for our mess). Get involved with your local peace group—you can find
one near where you live by visiting United for Peace, at:
http://www.unitedforpeace.org and the Vietnam Veterans Against War:
http://www.vvaw.org/contact/. A large demonstration is being planned for March
20, check here for more details:
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=2136. To get a “Bring Them Home
Now� bumper sticker or a poster for your yard, go here:
http://bringthemhomenow.org/yellowribbon_graphics/index.html. Also, back only
anti-war candidates for Congress and President (Kucinich, Dean, Clark,
Sharpton).

I know it feels hopeless. That's how they want us to feel. Don't give up. We
owe it to these kids, the troops WE SUPPORT, to get them the hell outta there
and back home so they can help organize the drive to remove the war profiteers
from office next November.

To all who serve in our armed forces, to their parents and spouses and loved
ones, we offer to you the regrets of millions and the promise that we will
right this wrong and do whatever we can to thank you for offering to risk your
lives for us. That your life was put at risk for Bush's greed is a disgrace and
a travesty, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime.

Please be safe, come home soon, and know that our thoughts and prayers are with
you during this season when many of us celebrate the birth of the prince of
"peace."

Yours,

Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
www.michaelmoore.com

In article <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>,
chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote:
Friday, December 19th, 2003 Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael Moore Dear Friends,


Mike Moore has very few of those.

But it's enjoyable watching you Marcy stumble after a man like that.
Keep going!

By the way, I doubt those letters are genuine.




steve

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com... Friday, December 19th, 2003 Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael Moore Dear Friends, As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids who
are in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of letters from
our troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different from
what we are seeing on the evening news.

Unfortunately, Michael Moore has it wrong. Like it or not, the removal of
Saddam Hussein was the moral thing for the United States to do. Iraq's
economy was in ruins because of twelve years of sanctions, and the Iraqi
people were the victims of Saddam Hussein's regime, and George H. Bush's
meddling in Iraq's affairs after the 1991 invasion of Iraq.

The tens or hundreds of thousands of Shiites whose corpses are now being dug
up, were killed by Saddam Hussein after the abortive coup that was put down
by Saddam Hussein after George H. Bush lifted the No Fly Zone to permit
Hussein's helicopter gunships and his army to invade Southern Iraq. Those
were the same people who were told to rise up by George H.Bush.

I find it very hard to believe that the intelligence forces did not know
that Saddam Hussein had not destroyed his weapons of mass destruction. He
had no need of them after the 1991 war, as he was being protected from Iran
by American and British air power in the form of the No Fly Zones. I also do
not doubt that as soon as the Americans withdrew, that he had enough of the
core of the technology to restart his programs, or hey, he could have bought
the technology again from the Americans, British, French, Germans,.
Pakistanis, North Koreans, Chinese or Russian Governments, or disaffected
Russian KGB agent/organized crime figures.

Saddam Hussein was like a rabid dog, and like a rabid dog has to be killed
by its owner. Certainly the Russians, French and Germans had enough claim to
partial ownership of him, that they had the same obligation to put him down.
It is just unfortunate, that there was no effective way of doing it without
starting a war, when the Americans decided to put him down. The plan to
invade Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th, it had to do with the
fact that someone had to get rid of Saddam. The plan was started by the
Clinton administration, and was finished off by the Bush administration.

I can't say that I agree with lying to provide a basis for the war, and I
can't say that I support George Bush. I just couldn't think what else could
be done.

Doug Thomas

>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>Friday, December 19th, 2003Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael MooreDear Friends,As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids whoare in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of letters
fromour troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different fromwhat we are seeing on the evening news.

Excellent - the (network) evening news rarely reports positive news from
Baghdad.

GWB carried the Armed Forces vote in the last election. We'll find out soon
enough if the President has the support of the troops. I'll bet you lunch at
Coconuts on St Armand's Circle that GWB will carry the military vote once again
in 2004.

Micheal Moore would indict a ham sandwich if it was registered Republican, if
only he could resist eating it first.

Dad

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>Friday, December 19th, 2003Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael MooreDear Friends,As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids whoare in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of lettersfromour troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different fromwhat we are seeing on the evening news. Excellent - the (network) evening news rarely reports positive news fromBaghdad. GWB carried the Armed Forces vote in the last election. We'll find outsoonenough if the President has the support of the troops. I'll bet you lunch atCoconuts on St Armand's Circle that GWB will carry the military vote onceagainin 2004.


Sorry Dad, can't have lunch outside at Cha Cha Coconuts, we are having a cold
spell, it's only 72 here. Everyone is staying indoors. And GWB will always
carry the military vote, just as Michael Moore said, they are as a group
uneducated and from mostly rural, backwoods, or unsophisticated families, not
educated about politics, and they are mostly young kids. As long as GWB waves
the flag in their face, they will continue to vote for him and march off into
war for him. You don't see any of GWB's families or cronies sending their kids
to Iraq. How about the party twins, why haven't they enlisted in the grunts
army?

Want to go boating to Egmont Key Dad? We can take your family tubing on the end
of Ana Maria, and pull up for stone crabs at Rotten Ralph's.

Micheal Moore would indict a ham sandwich if it was registered Republican,ifonly he could resist eating it first.Dad

He e-mailed me yesterday, I was shocked. I e-mailed him and never expected an
answer back. Very nice guy. Still salt of the earth. Think he would pick a
Wisconsin Polish Sausage with Kraut and a Pabst Blue Ribbon over a ham
sandwich, he does look like he enjoys a good meal.

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>Friday, December 19th, 2003Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael MooreDear Friends,As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids whoare in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of
lettersfromour troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different
fromwhat we are seeing on the evening news. Excellent - the (network) evening news rarely reports positive news
fromBaghdad. GWB carried the Armed Forces vote in the last election. We'll find outsoonenough if the President has the support of the troops. I'll bet you
lunch atCoconuts on St Armand's Circle that GWB will carry the military vote onceagainin 2004. Sorry Dad, can't have lunch outside at Cha Cha Coconuts, we are having a
cold spell, it's only 72 here. Everyone is staying indoors. And GWB will always carry the military vote, just as Michael Moore said, they are as a group uneducated and from mostly rural, backwoods, or unsophisticated families,
not educated about politics, and they are mostly young kids.

OMG could you *be* any more condescending! You and Michael Moore are morons
if you believe that. Based on that remark alone I wouldn't believe a damn
thing Michael Moore has to say from now on. My daughter's best friend was in
the *top ten* of a class of 400 and she is a Marine. I know several who
don't even remotely resemble that remark and I dare say they are in the
majority not the minority.

As long as GWB waves the flag in their face, they will continue to vote for him and march off
into war for him. You don't see any of GWB's families or cronies sending their
kids to Iraq. How about the party twins, why haven't they enlisted in the
grunts army? Want to go boating to Egmont Key Dad? We can take your family tubing on
the end of Ana Maria, and pull up for stone crabs at Rotten Ralph's. Micheal Moore would indict a ham sandwich if it was registered
Republican,ifonly he could resist eating it first.Dad He e-mailed me yesterday, I was shocked. I e-mailed him and never expected
an answer back. Very nice guy. Still salt of the earth. Think he would pick a Wisconsin Polish Sausage with Kraut and a Pabst Blue Ribbon over a ham sandwich, he does look like he enjoys a good meal.

You two deserve each other!

Kathy 1

In article <20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com>,
Chosenchildinc1 <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote:Sorry Dad, can't have lunch outside at Cha Cha Coconuts, we are having a coldspell, it's only 72 here. Everyone is staying indoors. And GWB will alwayscarry the military vote, just as Michael Moore said, they are as a groupuneducated and from mostly rural, backwoods, or unsophisticated families, noteducated about politics, and they are mostly young kids. As long as GWB wavesthe flag in their face, they will continue to vote for him and march off intowar for him. You don't see any of GWB's families or cronies sending their kidsto Iraq. How about the party twins, why haven't they enlisted in the gruntsarmy?


Marcie, you make it difficult for liberals when you write this kind of
stuff.

Think now, who is the backbone of the Democratic party. Hint--it ain't
the country club set, coupon clippers, equestrians, CEOs of
mega-corporations, bankers, or people who live in Mcmansions.

Dissing the blue collar heart of the Democratic party is not smart. Not
smart at all.

Linda

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>Friday, December 19th, 2003Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael MooreDear Friends,As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids whoare in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of
lettersfromour troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different
fromwhat we are seeing on the evening news. Excellent - the (network) evening news rarely reports positive news
fromBaghdad. GWB carried the Armed Forces vote in the last election. We'll find outsoonenough if the President has the support of the troops. I'll bet you
lunch atCoconuts on St Armand's Circle that GWB will carry the military vote onceagainin 2004. Sorry Dad, can't have lunch outside at Cha Cha Coconuts, we are having a
cold spell, it's only 72 here. Everyone is staying indoors. And GWB will always carry the military vote, just as Michael Moore said, they are as a group uneducated and from mostly rural, backwoods, or unsophisticated families,
not educated about politics, and they are mostly young kids.

They are mostly young people in their mid twenties. The average age of the
US infantry serving in Vietnam was 22.5 years, and that average has crept
upwards with the abolition of the draft, as has the level of education. If
you factor in the number of National Guard units on active duty in Iraq, the
median age could be as high as 29, and the average of those serving with
college degrees is probably higher than at any other time in US history.
This is probably the oldest armed force the US has fielded since the 1800's,
maybe ever. The armed forces today field a fairly representative cross
section the US population; predominantly suburban, high degree of technical
proficiency, average political sophistication (that bows to military
indocrination). There isn't a great need for the cannon fodder, No Time for
Sergeants, army full of green hicks any more. The armed forces in the last
three years eading up to Iraq could cherry pick suitable candidates for a
more technologically driven force.

As long as GWB waves the flag in their face, they will continue to vote for him and march off
into war for him.

The military vote didn't win Bush the presidency in 2000, nor did it lose
the presidency for Clinton in 96. The military vote is conservative, I'll
have to check but I doubt the military vote has gone Democrat since LBJ. I'd
say off the top of my head that the military generally votes for the
candidate that promises them the best weapons and supplies, since these
stand between them and hostile fire. That's not as unspophisticated a stance
as it looks, either.

Ron

You don't see any of GWB's families or cronies sending their kids to Iraq. How about the party twins, why haven't they enlisted in the
grunts army? Want to go boating to Egmont Key Dad? We can take your family tubing on
the end of Ana Maria, and pull up for stone crabs at Rotten Ralph's. Micheal Moore would indict a ham sandwich if it was registered
Republican,ifonly he could resist eating it first.Dad He e-mailed me yesterday, I was shocked. I e-mailed him and never expected
an answer back. Very nice guy. Still salt of the earth. Think he would pick a Wisconsin Polish Sausage with Kraut and a Pabst Blue Ribbon over a ham sandwich, he does look like he enjoys a good meal.

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.netDate: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com>>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>>>>>Friday, December 19th, 2003>Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael Moore>>>Dear Friends,>>As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids who>are in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds oflettersfrom>our troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very differentfrom>what we are seeing on the evening news. Excellent - the (network) evening news rarely reports positive newsfromBaghdad. GWB carried the Armed Forces vote in the last election. We'll find outsoonenough if the President has the support of the troops. I'll bet youlunch atCoconuts on St Armand's Circle that GWB will carry the military vote onceagainin 2004. Sorry Dad, can't have lunch outside at Cha Cha Coconuts, we are having acold spell, it's only 72 here. Everyone is staying indoors. And GWB will always carry the military vote, just as Michael Moore said, they are as a group uneducated and from mostly rural, backwoods, or unsophisticated families,not educated about politics, and they are mostly young kids.They are mostly young people in their mid twenties. The average age of theUS infantry serving in Vietnam was 22.5 years, and that average has creptupwards with the abolition of the draft, as has the level of education. Ifyou factor in the number of National Guard units on active duty in Iraq, themedian age could be as high as 29, and the average of those serving withcollege degrees is probably higher than at any other time in US history.This is probably the oldest armed force the US has fielded since the 1800's,maybe ever. The armed forces today field a fairly representative crosssection the US population; predominantly suburban, high degree of technicalproficiency, average political sophistication (that bows to militaryindocrination). There isn't a great need for the cannon fodder, No Time forSergeants, army full of green hicks any more. The armed forces in the lastthree years eading up to Iraq could cherry pick suitable candidates for amore technologically driven force.As long as GWB waves the flag in their face, they will continue to vote for him and march offinto war for him.The military vote didn't win Bush the presidency in 2000, nor did it losethe presidency for Clinton in 96. The military vote is conservative, I'llhave to check but I doubt the military vote has gone Democrat since LBJ. I'dsay off the top of my head that the military generally votes for thecandidate that promises them the best weapons and supplies, since thesestand between them and hostile fire. That's not as unspophisticated a stanceas it looks, either.RonYou don't see any of GWB's families or cronies sending their kids to Iraq. How about the party twins, why haven't they enlisted in thegrunts army? Want to go boating to Egmont Key Dad? We can take your family tubing onthe end of Ana Maria, and pull up for stone crabs at Rotten Ralph's. Micheal Moore would indict a ham sandwich if it was registeredRepublican,ifonly he could resist eating it first.Dad He e-mailed me yesterday, I was shocked. I e-mailed him and never expectedan answer back. Very nice guy. Still salt of the earth. Think he would pick a Wisconsin Polish Sausage with Kraut and a Pabst Blue Ribbon over a ham sandwich, he does look like he enjoys a good meal.

Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds into battle
with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about cutting V.A.
benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping them off in
a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and middle
class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they are getting
screwed. Dumb and dumber.

Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, if you
are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos

In article <bvbe2u$1nl@holmes.umd.edu>,
lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote:

Marcie, you make it difficult for liberals when you write this kind of stuff.


I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

Think now, who is the backbone of the Democratic party. Hint--it ain't the country club set, coupon clippers, equestrians, CEOs of mega-corporations, bankers, or people who live in Mcmansions. Dissing the blue collar heart of the Democratic party is not smart. Not smart at all.


Who said she was smart?




steve

In article <bvbbn2$qo8p1$1@ID-203097.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"kat" <katlat24@hotmail.com> wrote:

OMG could you *be* any more condescending! You and Michael Moore are morons if you believe that. Based on that remark alone I wouldn't believe a damn thing Michael Moore has to say from now on. My daughter's best friend was in the *top ten* of a class of 400 and she is a Marine. I know several who don't even remotely resemble that remark and I dare say they are in the majority not the minority.


Young man, aged 23, from the family that lives behind us on our block --
graduated Notre Dame last spring and now is a 2nd Lt. in the US Marines.
Saw him briefly right after the new year when he was home on leave.

Lean, smart, educated, well-mannered, treats everyone with respect,
obviously going to go places in life.

If only my daughter were older.





steve

>ubject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: Steve White steve@spam.me.neverDate: 1/30/2004 12:06 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <steve-F94F7D.21364529012004@netnews.comcast.net>In article <bvbbn2$qo8p1$1@ID-203097.news.uni-berlin.de>, "kat" <katlat24@hotmail.com> wrote: OMG could you *be* any more condescending! You and Michael Moore are morons if you believe that. Based on that remark alone I wouldn't believe a damn thing Michael Moore has to say from now on. My daughter's best friend was in the *top ten* of a class of 400 and she is a Marine. I know several who don't even remotely resemble that remark and I dare say they are in the majority not the minority.Young man, aged 23, from the family that lives behind us on our block --graduated Notre Dame last spring and now is a 2nd Lt. in the US Marines.Saw him briefly right after the new year when he was home on leave.Lean, smart, educated, well-mannered, treats everyone with respect,obviously going to go places in life.If only my daughter were older.steve

Still haven't answered why Bush, Cheney, and all his friends never served, and
why their kids aren't serving now? What a bunch of hypocrites. I have no
problem with serving my country, I actually was going to go into the military
as an R.N. for Viet Nam in 1970. Started pre-med at UCLA instead. That was when
I was stupid enough to think that Viet Nam was just. I worked at Rancho Los
Amigos hospital where all of the military spinal cord injuries and rehab cases
were sent in the 70's, they filmed "Coming Home" with Jon Voight and Jane Fonda
right outside my office window, part of the USC rehab program. So don't tell me
how corrupt our government is when it comes to war. You probably still think it
was a great war Steve, just like you think we are in Iraq because Sadaam is a
bad guy. Putting that great guy who lives behind you on the block in harms way
to line Cheney and companies pockets is the worst kind of stupidity and flag
waving. This whole war is a lie and you do an incredible dis-service and lack
of respect to those who are dying over there with your love the war, love our
country or leave it attitude. A patriot stands up and protests when the
governement is currupt. My ex was a marine reserve during Viet Nam and a CPA
who passed the exam the first time, not stupid at all, but smart enough to know
Viet Nam was a farce. Bush and company depend on this country being stupid
sheep who will blindly nod whenever he waves the flag in their face. Do you
read? In the meantime young kids are coming home in body bags, you more than
anyone are responsible, your intelligence in light of your blind faith is
inexcusable. Every day Bush is exposed as a fraud. Just this week Kay called
Bush a lier and now Bush is blaming the CIA for bad information, just like he
blamed the navy kids for putting up the Mission Accomplished sign. He is never
responsible, great for the party that prides itself on being the party of
responsibility. History will show that this war was a fraud just like Viet Nam
and you will either step up to the plate and admit your responsibilty in that
fraud, because you were told, or you will continue to wave your flag and march
lockstep with your corrupt Republican buddies. Which is it?

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)Date: 1/30/04 2:32 AM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040130023246.24596.00000968@mb-m13.aol.com>ubject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: Steve White steve@spam.me.neverDate: 1/30/2004 12:06 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <steve-F94F7D.21364529012004@netnews.comcast.net>In article <bvbbn2$qo8p1$1@ID-203097.news.uni-berlin.de>, "kat" <katlat24@hotmail.com> wrote: OMG could you *be* any more condescending! You and Michael Moore are morons if you believe that. Based on that remark alone I wouldn't believe a damn thing Michael Moore has to say from now on. My daughter's best friend was in the *top ten* of a class of 400 and she is a Marine. I know several who don't even remotely resemble that remark and I dare say they are in the majority not the minority.Young man, aged 23, from the family that lives behind us on our block --graduated Notre Dame last spring and now is a 2nd Lt. in the US Marines.Saw him briefly right after the new year when he was home on leave.Lean, smart, educated, well-mannered, treats everyone with respect,obviously going to go places in life.If only my daughter were older.steveStill haven't answered why Bush, Cheney, and all his friendsnever served, and why their kids aren't serving now?

Oh shutup, Marcy. You don't have to serve in the armed forces or come from a
military family in order to show respect for them.
What a bunch of hypocrites.

You're the hypocrite, you goober.
I have no problem with serving my country, I actually was going to go >into
the military as an R.N. for Viet Nam in 1970. Started pre-med at >UCLA instead.

Oh brother. It's nice that you gave the military a passing thought back in
1970. I guess this makes you of them. Perhaps you could apply for VA
benefits.
That was when I was stupid enough to think that Viet Nam wasjust. I worked at Rancho Los Amigos hospital blah where all blahblah of the military blah spinal cord blah injuries blah and blah blahblah rehab cases were sent blah in the 70's, they blah blah filmed >"Coming
Home" with Jon Voight blah and blah Jane Fonda right blahoutside my office blah window, part of blah the USC blah rehab >program blah
blah firggin' blah

Blah blah blah blah. Is this where you formed your opinion that soldiers in
our armed forces were just plain stoopid?

Do you beep when you backpeddle this fast?

Dad

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)Date: 1/30/2004 8:43 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040130071357.18858.00001161@mb-m28.aol.com>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)Date: 1/30/04 2:32 AM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040130023246.24596.00000968@mb-m13.aol.com>ubject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: Steve White steve@spam.me.neverDate: 1/30/2004 12:06 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <steve-F94F7D.21364529012004@netnews.comcast.net>In article <bvbbn2$qo8p1$1@ID-203097.news.uni-berlin.de>, "kat" <katlat24@hotmail.com> wrote:> OMG could you *be* any more condescending! You and Michael Moore are> morons if you believe that. Based on that remark alone I wouldn't> believe a damn thing Michael Moore has to say from now on. My> daughter's best friend was in the *top ten* of a class of 400 and she> is a Marine. I know several who don't even remotely resemble that> remark and I dare say they are in the majority not the minority.Young man, aged 23, from the family that lives behind us on our block --graduated Notre Dame last spring and now is a 2nd Lt. in the US Marines.Saw him briefly right after the new year when he was home on leave.Lean, smart, educated, well-mannered, treats everyone with respect,obviously going to go places in life.If only my daughter were older.steveStill haven't answered why Bush, Cheney, and all his friendsnever served, and why their kids aren't serving now? Oh shutup, Marcy. You don't have to serve in the armed forces or come from


Second time you told me to shut up in one week Dad, that is a sign of poor
stress control, you should get that looked into. Could be dangerous to your
relationships, and it's a bad habit, like hitting someone, or slamming doors.
Come on down to Florida Dad, you need a break. I have a Kalik waiting for you
at Rotten Ralph's we can watch the Cortez boats come in with their catch, wecan
our fried grouper sandwiches right off the boat.Your wife would love it.

military family in order to show respect for them.What a bunch of hypocrites. You're the hypocrite, you goober.I have no problem with serving my country, I actually was going to go >intothe military as an R.N. for Viet Nam in 1970. Started pre-med at >UCLAinstead. Oh brother. It's nice that you gave the military a passing thought back in1970. I guess this makes you of them. Perhaps you could apply for VAbenefits.That was when I was stupid enough to think that Viet Nam wasjust. I worked at Rancho Los Amigos hospital blah where all blahblah of the military blah spinal cord blah injuries blah and blah blahblah rehab cases were sent blah in the 70's, they blah blah filmed >"ComingHome" with Jon Voight blah and blah Jane Fonda right blahoutside my office blah window, part of blah the USC blah rehab >program blahblah firggin' blah Blah blah blah blah. Is this where you formed your opinion that soldiersinour armed forces were just plain stoopid?

It wasn't the most sophisticated educated group that got caught in Viet Nam,
look at all the deferments and other Viet Nam dodging accomplishments pulled
off by the Bush-Cheney crowd.
Do you beep when you backpeddle this fast?Dad


No, I snort when I see you and Steve STILL trying to justify Iraq after all the
news in the last few weeks.

Newflash: watch for more news of the lies regarding how much Bush's doomed
Medicare plan is really going to cost. And the seniors hate it. A big scam
devised by your friend AARP, the seniors foolproof insurance company in
cahoots with the Republican regime. God, even the conservatives are starting to
wake up.

chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, if you are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos

Did I miss something? Is there a URL?

Rupa

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: rkbose@pacific.net.sg (Rupa Bose)Date: 1/30/2004 8:48 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <e5619372.0401301618.3de8f5f7@posting.google.com>chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, ifyou are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. KudosDid I miss something? Is there a URL?Rupa

Rupa, go to Bastard Nation.com, go to media, and look for Oscars, his article
is hysterical.

On 31 Jan 2004 01:35:35 GMT, chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)
wrote:
Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: rkbose@pacific.net.sg (Rupa Bose)Date: 1/30/2004 8:48 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <e5619372.0401301618.3de8f5f7@posting.google.com>chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, ifyou are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. KudosDid I miss something? Is there a URL?RupaRupa, go to Bastard Nation.com, go to media, and look for Oscars, his articleis hysterical.

It is a gem. http://www.bastards.org/bq/oscars.htm for those who
haven't yet had the pleasure...

Julia

Steve White <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in message news:<steve-E9D5C3.21335729012004@netnews.comcast.net>... In article <bvbe2u$1nl@holmes.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: Marcie, you make it difficult for liberals when you write this kind of stuff. I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

Oh heavens, I am a conservative and this would never be my thought
process either. Her comment makes "people" look bad. I wonder if she
has ever fought for our country. I haven't, but am sure as heck
thankful to the people who do. Think now, who is the backbone of the Democratic party. Hint--it ain't the country club set, coupon clippers, equestrians, CEOs of mega-corporations, bankers, or people who live in Mcmansions. Dissing the blue collar heart of the Democratic party is not smart. Not smart at all. Who said she was smart? steve

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: aspensky@knology.net (Debbie)Date: 1/31/2004 2:57 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <4b23522a.0401302227.4112334d@posting.google.com>Steve White <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in messagenews:<steve-E9D5C3.21335729012004@netnews.comcast.net>... In article <bvbe2u$1nl@holmes.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: Marcie, you make it difficult for liberals when you write this kind of stuff. I hadn't thought of that. Good point.Oh heavens, I am a conservative and this would never be my thoughtprocess either. Her comment makes "people" look bad. I wonder if shehas ever fought for our country. I haven't, but am sure as heckthankful to the people who do. Think now, who is the backbone of the Democratic party. Hint--it ain't the country club set, coupon clippers, equestrians, CEOs of mega-corporations, bankers, or people who live in Mcmansions. Dissing the blue collar heart of the Democratic party is not smart. Not smart at all. Who said she was smart? steve

Conservatives always whine, if you don't support this war, you don't support
the troops, right out of Rush's mouth, and all the dittoheads mimic it. I
support the troops, not this corrupt war. Did your Dad think Viet Nam was a
just war? Was it worth the lives of half a million of his comrades? I saw at
Rancho Los Amigos what came back from that war, every day..................
Sorry, no flag waving on that or Iraq for me. Most of the troops are kids, and
they are the victims in this............ Afghanistan is already returning to
the warlords, and as soon as Bush finds a way to get out of Iraq, Iraq will
return to it's warlords as well. The deals will be made to line Cheney's and
his friends pockets and 15 years from now the war will be discussed exactly
like Nam, a huge mistake. Your Dad was a great man for serving, I would be
surprised if he though Viet Nam was a wonderful fight.

And dissing the blue collar Democrats? I diss anyone who doesn't educate
themselves on what this administration is doing, Democrat or Republican, who
follows lockstep and waves the flag while Bush and his corporate buddies ruin
lives, kill our troops, and rob our coffers. Does Enron, Halliburton, KBR, ring
a bell? The elections in this country are run on money, both parties are
completely at fault, the Democrats get no free pass on any of these issues.
Many Democrats voted for the war becauuse it was evident if they didn't they
were accused of being unpatriotic, not supporting the troops, hogwash, they
folded, the whole thing is disgusting.

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040130074836.24596.00000972@mb-m13.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)


Blah blah blah blah. Is this where you formed your opinion that
soldiersinour armed forces were just plain stoopid? It wasn't the most sophisticated educated group that got caught in Viet
Nam,


You just don't quit do you? One could look at that statement and conclude
that the "sophisticated, educated group" are also cowards eh?

look at all the deferments and other Viet Nam dodging accomplishments
pulled off by the Bush-Cheney crowd.

Oh boy. LOL you saw it here first folks. Marcy admits what she *really*
thinks about them, she considers them sophisticated and educated. Guess she
has just been pulling our leg with her other posts ;)
Do you beep when you backpeddle this fast?Dad No, I snort when I see you and Steve STILL trying to justify Iraq after
all the news in the last few weeks. Newflash: watch for more news of the lies regarding how much Bush's
doomed Medicare plan is really going to cost. And the seniors hate it. A big
scam devised by your friend AARP, the seniors foolproof insurance company in cahoots with the Republican regime. God, even the conservatives are
starting to wake up.

Sorry Marcy but I wouldn't believe *you* if you told me the sky was blue. I
might however believe someone who has some *genuine* respect for the men and
women who put their lives on the line every day.

Kathy 1

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040131043729.21810.00001212@mb-m14.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: aspensky@knology.net (Debbie)Date: 1/31/2004 2:57 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <4b23522a.0401302227.4112334d@posting.google.com>Steve White <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in messagenews:<steve-E9D5C3.21335729012004@netnews.comcast.net>... In article <bvbe2u$1nl@holmes.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: > Marcie, you make it difficult for liberals when you write this kind > of stuff. I hadn't thought of that. Good point.Oh heavens, I am a conservative and this would never be my thoughtprocess either. Her comment makes "people" look bad. I wonder if shehas ever fought for our country. I haven't, but am sure as heckthankful to the people who do. > Think now, who is the backbone of the Democratic party. Hint--it > ain't the country club set, coupon clippers, equestrians, CEOs of > mega-corporations, bankers, or people who live in Mcmansions. > > Dissing the blue collar heart of the Democratic party is not smart. > Not smart at all. Who said she was smart? steve Conservatives always whine, if you don't support this war, you don't
support the troops, right out of Rush's mouth, and all the dittoheads mimic it. I support the troops, not this corrupt war.

It is possible to do that and not be a complete asshole in the process (a
skill you haven't learned apparently. Several people on this newsgroup have
done just that without resorting to denigrating the troops - you might learn
from them.




Did your Dad think Viet Nam was a just war? Was it worth the lives of half a million of his comrades? I saw
at Rancho Los Amigos what came back from that war, every
day.................. Sorry, no flag waving on that or Iraq for me. Most of the troops are kids,
and they are the victims in this............


unsophisticated uneducated and from mostly rural, backwoods victims
apparently

fghanistan is already returning to the warlords, and as soon as Bush finds a way to get out of Iraq, Iraq
will return to it's warlords as well. The deals will be made to line Cheney's
and his friends pockets and 15 years from now the war will be discussed
exactly like Nam, a huge mistake. Your Dad was a great man for serving,



No I'm sure he was unsophisticated and stupid like you said the majority of
the troops were.

I would be surprised if he though Viet Nam was a wonderful fight.


Of course he did. He was too stupid to think otherwise. He just blindly
followed the flag-waving president into war.


Kathy 1

Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrotechosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote>> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, if you> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. KudosDid I miss something? Is there a URL?RupaRupa, go to Bastard Nation.com, go to media, and look for Oscars, his articleis hysterical. It is a gem. http://www.bastards.org/bq/oscars.htm for those who haven't yet had the pleasure... Julia

Thanks, Marcy and Julia...it was hilarious!

Rupa

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: Julia jurol@nospam.hotmail.comDate: 1/30/04 7:59 PM Mountain Standard TimeMessage-id: <na6m10ldnti6ufl5ufq53i1ucbu2ad1e9i@4ax.com>On 31 Jan 2004 01:35:35 GMT, chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)wrote:Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: rkbose@pacific.net.sg (Rupa Bose)Date: 1/30/2004 8:48 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <e5619372.0401301618.3de8f5f7@posting.google.com>chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote>> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny,ifyou> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. KudosDid I miss something? Is there a URL?RupaRupa, go to Bastard Nation.com, go to media, and look for Oscars, hisarticleis hysterical.It is a gem. http://www.bastards.org/bq/oscars.htm for those whohaven't yet had the pleasure...Julia

Totally fabulous! "Little men with big heads." ROFLMAO!


-------------------------
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will
be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!"
-----Unknown

"LilMtnCbn" <lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040131081753.17180.00001159@mb-m03.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: Julia jurol@nospam.hotmail.comDate: 1/30/04 7:59 PM Mountain Standard TimeMessage-id: <na6m10ldnti6ufl5ufq53i1ucbu2ad1e9i@4ax.com>On 31 Jan 2004 01:35:35 GMT, chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)wrote:>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help>From: rkbose@pacific.net.sg (Rupa Bose)>Date: 1/30/2004 8:48 PM Newfoundland Standard Time>Message-id: <e5619372.0401301618.3de8f5f7@posting.google.com>>>chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote>>>> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically
funny,if>you>> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos>>Did I miss something? Is there a URL?>>Rupa>>>>>>Rupa, go to Bastard Nation.com, go to media, and look for Oscars, hisarticleis hysterical.It is a gem. http://www.bastards.org/bq/oscars.htm for those whohaven't yet had the pleasure...Julia Totally fabulous! "Little men with big heads." ROFLMAO!

And they're getting smaller all the time.

Marley ------------------------- A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend
will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" -----Unknown

chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote in message news:<20040131043729.21810.00001212@mb-m14.aol.com>...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: aspensky@knology.net (Debbie)Date: 1/31/2004 2:57 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <4b23522a.0401302227.4112334d@posting.google.com>Steve White <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in messagenews:<steve-E9D5C3.21335729012004@netnews.comcast.net>... In article <bvbe2u$1nl@holmes.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: > Marcie, you make it difficult for liberals when you write this kind > of stuff. I hadn't thought of that. Good point.Oh heavens, I am a conservative and this would never be my thoughtprocess either. Her comment makes "people" look bad. I wonder if shehas ever fought for our country. I haven't, but am sure as heckthankful to the people who do. > Think now, who is the backbone of the Democratic party. Hint--it > ain't the country club set, coupon clippers, equestrians, CEOs of > mega-corporations, bankers, or people who live in Mcmansions. > > Dissing the blue collar heart of the Democratic party is not smart. > Not smart at all. Who said she was smart? steve Conservatives always whine, if you don't support this war, you don't support the troops, right out of Rush's mouth, and all the dittoheads mimic it.

Hello? I am a conservative, but dittohead? And you just got yourself
in a twist because of what Steve called you? I love your debate
tactics. I totally think for myself, otherwise I would never report to
be a conservative or Republican on this board amidst the Democratic
mass.

I support the troops, not this corrupt war.

Yeah, that is why you said they ALL were pretty much poor, low class,
good old boys.

Did your Dad think Viet Nam was a just war?

I said he was in the Air Force during the time of Vietnam, I did not
say he went to Vietnam. One of my potential bdads (LONG STORY) is a
Vietnam Vet, however and he still has nightmares to this day. He
talked about it with me and (according to his wife) that was the first
time he's talked about his experience in length ever. So, of course I
think he was a victim.

Your Dad was a great man for serving, I would be surprised if he though Viet Nam was a wonderful fight.

Of course neither he nor the man I mentioned above think it was a
wonderful fight. Most people don't think any fight is "wonderful", but
they did what they were called to do and whether I think it was "just"
or not, I will support them wholeheartedly for doing what they were
called to do. And dissing the blue collar Democrats? I diss anyone who doesn't educate themselves on what this administration is doing, Democrat or Republican, who follows lockstep and waves the flag while Bush and his corporate buddies ruin lives, kill our troops, and rob our coffers. Does Enron, Halliburton, KBR, ring a bell?

Uhh yeah, I watch MSNBC too.

The elections in this country are run on money, both parties are completely at fault, the Democrats get no free pass on any of these issues. Many Democrats voted for the war becauuse it was evident if they didn't they were accused of being unpatriotic, not supporting the troops, hogwash, they folded, the whole thing is disgusting.

Exactly, both parties are corrupt. Just look at Mr. Clinton.

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.netDate: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com... >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad) >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com> > >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>
Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds into
battle with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about cutting
V.A. benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping them
off in a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and middle class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they are
getting screwed. Dumb and dumber.

Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class interests all
the time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbook
liberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and people
serve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract. The
way military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate of
retention.

What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightly
wound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting to see
whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's Shock
and Awe in Iraq. Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, if
you are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos

Oh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the rough.
The pay sucks though...

Ron

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.netDate: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.netDate: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com...> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com>> >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds intobattle with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about cuttingV.A. benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping themoff in a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and middle class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they aregetting screwed. Dumb and dumber.Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class interests allthe time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbookliberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and peopleserve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract. Theway military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate ofretention.What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightlywound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting to seewhose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's Shockand Awe in Iraq. Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, ifyou are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. KudosOh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the rough.The pay sucks though...Ron

Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailed him
within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer:

mmflint@aol.com

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.netDate: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>
<snip>
Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds intobattle with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about
cuttingV.A. benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping themoff in a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and
middle class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they aregetting screwed. Dumb and dumber.Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class interests
allthe time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbookliberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and peopleserve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract.
Theway military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate ofretention.What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that
tightlywound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting to
seewhose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's
Shockand Awe in Iraq. Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny,
ifyou are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. KudosOh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the
rough.The pay sucks though...Ron Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailed him within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer:

Or read this: http://www.clark04.com/moore/

Helen

mmflint@aol.com

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.netDate: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com... >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net >Date: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard Time >Message-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et> > > >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message >news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com... >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad) >> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time >> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com> >> > >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) >> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time >> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds intobattle with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about
cuttingV.A. benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping themoff in a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and
middle class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they aregetting screwed. Dumb and dumber.Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class interests
allthe time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbookliberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and peopleserve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract.
Theway military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate ofretention.What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that
tightlywound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting to
seewhose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's
Shockand Awe in Iraq. Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny,
ifyou are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. KudosOh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the
rough.The pay sucks though...Ron Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailed him within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer: mmflint@aol.com

When he spoke at OSU he said he did not support Clark. He saw him as an
option. Personally, I like Clark OK.. I dont like Dean and all the
wankie-boys who are running except for Dennis, and he's unelectable..

Marley

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Marley Greiner" maddogmarley@worldnet.att.netDate: 2/3/2004 12:11 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <6jPTb.50670$6O4.1511757@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.netDate: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com...> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net> >Date: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard Time> >Message-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et>> >> >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message> >news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com...> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time> >> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com>> >> >> >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)> >> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time> >> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>>> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds intobattle> with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how aboutcuttingV.A.> benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping themoff in> a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor andmiddle> class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they aregetting> screwed. Dumb and dumber.Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class interestsallthe time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbookliberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and peopleserve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract.Theway military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate ofretention.What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting thattightlywound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting toseewhose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W'sShockand Awe in Iraq.>> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny,ifyou> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. KudosOh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in therough.The pay sucks though...Ron Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailed him within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer: mmflint@aol.comWhen he spoke at OSU he said he did not support Clark. He saw him as anoption. Personally, I like Clark OK.. I dont like Dean and all thewankie-boys who are running except for Dennis, and he's unelectable..Marley

I have a strong feeling that Kerry is going to take it, but Bush will stage a
major terror alert right before the election, assuring he'll win. BushCo is so
readable it's ridiculous. He doesn't even bother to cover it up anymore, no one
cares, they vote him in anyway. No wonder we are the laughing stock of the
world.

"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040203104605.27224.00001317@mb-m11.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Marley Greiner" maddogmarley@worldnet.att.netDate: 2/3/2004 12:11 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <6jPTb.50670$6O4.1511757@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com... >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net >Date: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard Time >Message-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net> > > >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message >news:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com... >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net >> >Date: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard Time >> >Message-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et> >> > >> > >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message >> >news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com... >> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad) >> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time >> >> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com> >> >> > >> >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) >> >> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time >> >> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com> > >> >> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds
into >battle >> with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how aboutcutting >V.A. >> benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping
them >off in >> a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor andmiddle >> class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they
are >getting >> screwed. Dumb and dumber. > >Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class
interestsall >the time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbook >liberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and
people >serve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their
contract.The >way military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate
of >retention. > >What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting thattightly >wound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting tosee >whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W'sShock >and Awe in Iraq. >> >> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically
funny,if >you >> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos > >Oh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in therough. >The pay sucks though... > >Ron > > > > > > > > Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailed
him within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer: mmflint@aol.comWhen he spoke at OSU he said he did not support Clark. He saw him as anoption. Personally, I like Clark OK.. I dont like Dean and all thewankie-boys who are running except for Dennis, and he's unelectable..Marley I have a strong feeling that Kerry is going to take it, but Bush will
stage a major terror alert right before the election, assuring he'll win. BushCo
is so readable it's ridiculous. He doesn't even bother to cover it up anymore,
no one cares, they vote him in anyway. No wonder we are the laughing stock of the world.

I read Mike's piece on Wes Clark, so that's my bad. I haven't kept up with
this, since I've reached the point where it's anybody but Bush--unless it's
John Ashcroft or Lou Sheldon or Lyndon Larouche.. Hell, I'd vote for Janet
Jackson (did you see Matt Druge's close-up of the world' most famous tit?)
I'd like to see a real man in the White House for once, not one of these
liberal do-gooding book readers (of course nobody ever accused Bunnypants of
reading a book--or of do-gooding, but he's not even a blip on the manhood
scale), but that's not very likely.

Marley

chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote in message news:<20040203104605.27224.00001317@mb-m11.aol.com>...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Marley Greiner" maddogmarley@worldnet.att.netDate: 2/3/2004 12:11 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <6jPTb.50670$6O4.1511757@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com... >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net >Date: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard Time >Message-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net> > > >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message >news:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com... >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net >> >Date: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard Time >> >Message-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et> >> > >> > >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message >> >news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com... >> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad) >> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time >> >> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com> >> >> > >> >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) >> >> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time >> >> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com> >> >> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds into battle >> with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about cutting V.A. >> benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping them off in >> a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and middle >> class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they are getting >> screwed. Dumb and dumber. > >Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class interests all >the time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbook >liberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and people >serve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract. The >way military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate of >retention. > >What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightly >wound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting to see >whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's Shock >and Awe in Iraq. >> >> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, if you >> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos > >Oh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the rough. >The pay sucks though... > >Ron > > > > > > > > Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailed him within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer: mmflint@aol.comWhen he spoke at OSU he said he did not support Clark. He saw him as anoption. Personally, I like Clark OK.. I dont like Dean and all thewankie-boys who are running except for Dennis, and he's unelectable..Marley I have a strong feeling that Kerry is going to take it, but Bush will stage a major terror alert right before the election, assuring he'll win. BushCo is so readable it's ridiculous. He doesn't even bother to cover it up anymore, no one cares, they vote him in anyway. No wonder we are the laughing stock of the world.


Since when are WE the laughing stock of the world? Why don't you go
join Jackie in Canada where you two can bash the United States
together?

"Debbie" <aspensky@knology.net> wrote in message
news:4b23522a.0402031452.798e5693@posting.google.c om... chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote in message
news:<20040203104605.27224.00001317@mb-m11.aol.com>...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Marley Greiner" maddogmarley@worldnet.att.netDate: 2/3/2004 12:11 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id:
<6jPTb.50670$6O4.1511757@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com...> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net> >Date: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard Time> >Message-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>> >> >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message> >news:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com...> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard Time> >> >Message-id:
<RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et>> >> >> >> >> >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message> >> >news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com...> >> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >> >> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)> >> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time> >> >> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com>> >> >> >> >> >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >> >> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)> >> >> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time> >> >> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>> >>> >> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds
into battle> >> with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about cutting V.A.> >> benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping
them off in> >> a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor
and middle> >> class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they
are getting> >> screwed. Dumb and dumber.> >> >Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class
interests all> >the time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the
checkbook> >liberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and
people> >serve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their
contract. The> >way military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the
rate of> >retention.> >> >What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightly> >wound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting
to see> >whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or
W's Shock> >and Awe in Iraq.> >>> >> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically
funny, if you> >> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos> >> >Oh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the rough.> >The pay sucks though...> >> >Ron> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I
e-mailed him> within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer:>> mmflint@aol.comWhen he spoke at OSU he said he did not support Clark. He saw him as
anoption. Personally, I like Clark OK.. I dont like Dean and all thewankie-boys who are running except for Dennis, and he's unelectable..Marley I have a strong feeling that Kerry is going to take it, but Bush will
stage a major terror alert right before the election, assuring he'll win. BushCo
is so readable it's ridiculous. He doesn't even bother to cover it up anymore,
no one cares, they vote him in anyway. No wonder we are the laughing stock of
the world. Since when are WE the laughing stock of the world? Why don't you go join Jackie in Canada where you two can bash the United States together?

For a long time. You need to get out of the confines of the camp and see
what the rest of the world thinks. What upsets people more: janet
Jackson's bare boob or the murder of millions of people since the end since
1950 under the auspices of US foreign policy?

Marley

Marley

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: aspensky@knology.net (Debbie)Date: 2/3/2004 7:22 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <4b23522a.0402031452.798e5693@posting.google.com>chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote in messagenews:<20040203104605.27224.00001317@mb-m11.aol.com>...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: "Marley Greiner" maddogmarley@worldnet.att.netDate: 2/3/2004 12:11 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <6jPTb.50670$6O4.1511757@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com...> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net> >Date: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard Time> >Message-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>> >> >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message> >news:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com...> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard Time> >> >Message-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et>> >> >> >> >> >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message> >> >news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com...> >> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >> >> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad)> >> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time> >> >> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com>> >> >> >> >> >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help> >> >> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)> >> >> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time> >> >> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com>> >>> >> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year oldsinto battle> >> with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about cutting V.A.> >> benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or droppingthem off in> >> a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and middle> >> class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they are getting> >> screwed. Dumb and dumber.> >> >Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their classinterests all> >the time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbook> >liberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and people> >serve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract. The> >way military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rateof> >retention.> >> >What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightly> >wound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting to see> >whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's Shock> >and Awe in Iraq.> >>> >> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hystericallyfunny, if you> >> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos> >> >Oh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the rough.> >The pay sucks though...> >> >Ron> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailedhim> within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer:>> mmflint@aol.comWhen he spoke at OSU he said he did not support Clark. He saw him as anoption. Personally, I like Clark OK.. I dont like Dean and all thewankie-boys who are running except for Dennis, and he's unelectable..Marley I have a strong feeling that Kerry is going to take it, but Bush will stagea major terror alert right before the election, assuring he'll win. BushCo isso readable it's ridiculous. He doesn't even bother to cover it up anymore, noone cares, they vote him in anyway. No wonder we are the laughing stock of the world.Since when are WE the laughing stock of the world? Why don't you gojoin Jackie in Canada where you two can bash the United Statestogether?

I know, America, right or wrong, love it or leave it, wave the flag and ignore
what the government is doing, sounds like Nam to me. And we are the laughing
stock of the world, Bush has managed to alienate all of our allies within three
years. Except for the few who are backpeddling now.

"Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<dKVTb.169895$6y6.3318713@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... "Debbie" <aspensky@knology.net> wrote in message news:4b23522a.0402031452.798e5693@posting.google.c om... chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote in message news:<20040203104605.27224.00001317@mb-m11.aol.com>... >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >From: "Marley Greiner" maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net >Date: 2/3/2004 12:11 PM Newfoundland Standard Time >Message-id: <6jPTb.50670$6O4.1511757@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> > > >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message >news:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com... >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net >> >Date: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard Time >> >Message-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net> >> > >> > >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message >> >news:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com... >> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net >> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard Time >> >> >Message-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message >> >> >news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com... >> >> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >> >> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad) >> >> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time >> >> >> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help >> >> >> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) >> >> >> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time >> >> >> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com> >> >> >> >> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds into battle >> >> with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about cutting V.A. >> >> benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping them off in >> >> a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and middle >> >> class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they are getting >> >> screwed. Dumb and dumber. >> > >> >Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class interests all >> >the time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbook >> >liberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and people >> >serve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract. The >> >way military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate of >> >retention. >> > >> >What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightly >> >wound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting to see >> >whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's Shock >> >and Awe in Iraq. >> >> >> >> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, if you >> >> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos >> > >> >Oh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the rough. >> >The pay sucks though... >> > >> >Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailed him >> within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer: >> >> mmflint@aol.com > >When he spoke at OSU he said he did not support Clark. He saw him as an >option. Personally, I like Clark OK.. I dont like Dean and all the >wankie-boys who are running except for Dennis, and he's unelectable.. > >Marley > > > > > > > > I have a strong feeling that Kerry is going to take it, but Bush will stage a major terror alert right before the election, assuring he'll win. BushCo is so readable it's ridiculous. He doesn't even bother to cover it up anymore, no one cares, they vote him in anyway. No wonder we are the laughing stock of the world. Since when are WE the laughing stock of the world? Why don't you go join Jackie in Canada where you two can bash the United States together? For a long time. You need to get out of the confines of the camp and see what the rest of the world thinks. What upsets people more: janet Jackson's bare boob or the murder of millions of people since the end since 1950 under the auspices of US foreign policy? Marley Marley

Sadly so. Our own Prime Minister is looking a rather sheepish, too.

Di

In article <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>,
"Ron Morgan" <rhyzome1@earthlink.net> wrote:

What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightly wound little martinet Wesley Clark?


He recognizes a fellow weasel. Wesley wasn't too well liked by the
troops.

I think it would be interesting to see whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's Shock and Awe in Iraq.


There's an interesting comparison.




steve

On 3 Feb 2004 19:59:53 -0800, patrice68@bigpond.com.au (Dian) wrote:
"Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<dKVTb.169895$6y6.3318713@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... "Debbie" <aspensky@knology.net> wrote in message news:4b23522a.0402031452.798e5693@posting.google.c om... chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) wrote in message news:<20040203104605.27224.00001317@mb-m11.aol.com>... > >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help > >From: "Marley Greiner" maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net > >Date: 2/3/2004 12:11 PM Newfoundland Standard Time > >Message-id: <6jPTb.50670$6O4.1511757@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> > > > > > >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message > >news:20040203054204.27224.00001307@mb-m11.aol.com... > >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help > >> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net > >> >Date: 2/3/2004 2:38 AM Newfoundland Standard Time > >> >Message-id: <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net> > >> > > >> > > >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message > >> >news:20040129131438.21885.00001121@mb-m14.aol.com... > >> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help > >> >> >From: "Ron Morgan" rhyzome1@earthlink.net > >> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 2:07 PM Newfoundland Standard Time > >> >> >Message-id: <RxbSb.2011$F23.1209@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message > >> >> >news:20040129110501.21810.00001123@mb-m14.aol.com... > >> >> >> >Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help > >> >> >> >From: adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad) > >> >> >> >Date: 1/29/2004 10:44 AM Newfoundland Standard Time > >> >> >> >Message-id: <20040129091431.22756.00000938@mb-m18.aol.com> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >>Subject: Excellent Post and Suggestions To Help > >> >> >> >>From: chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1) > >> >> >> >>Date: 1/28/2004 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time > >> >> >> >>Message-id: <20040128185517.22792.00001045@mb-m18.aol.com> > >> >> > >> >> Best benefits and supplies, do you mean like sending 19 year olds into battle > >> >> with no Flak jackets or side arms? Not enough money. Or how about > cutting > V.A. > >> >> benefits, paying $12,000 to a family for loss of life, or dropping them off in > >> >> a city and they have to get home from there? Just like the poor and middle > >> >> class conservatives, they keep voting Republican even though they are getting > >> >> screwed. Dumb and dumber. > >> > > >> >Yeah, whatever. Rich people vote seemingly against their class interests all > >> >the time. I suppose in this light Susan Sarandon and all the checkbook > >> >liberals *are* dumb... Any way, it's an all volunteer force, and people > >> >serve their time and vote with their feet at the end of their contract. The > >> >way military personnel vote is going to be less telling than the rate of > >> >retention. > >> > > >> >What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightly > >> >wound little martinet Wesley Clark? I think it would be interesting to see > >> >whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's Shock > >> >and Awe in Iraq. > >> >> > >> >> Sideline Ron, I pulled up your Oscar story on B.N., hysterically funny, > if > you > >> >> are not a writer, you should be. Beautifully written. Kudos > >> > > >> >Oh, that's still on the BN website? Cool. Yeah, I'm a diamond in the rough. > >> >The pay sucks though... > >> > > >> >Ron > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> Ask Michael why he supports Clark, he e-mailed me back when I e-mailed him > >> within 30 minutes. I would love to hear his answer: > >> > >> mmflint@aol.com > > > >When he spoke at OSU he said he did not support Clark. He saw him as an > >option. Personally, I like Clark OK.. I dont like Dean and all the > >wankie-boys who are running except for Dennis, and he's unelectable.. > > > >Marley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a strong feeling that Kerry is going to take it, but Bush will stage a > major terror alert right before the election, assuring he'll win. BushCo is so > readable it's ridiculous. He doesn't even bother to cover it up anymore, no one > cares, they vote him in anyway. No wonder we are the laughing stock of the > world. Since when are WE the laughing stock of the world? Why don't you go join Jackie in Canada where you two can bash the United States together? For a long time. You need to get out of the confines of the camp and see what the rest of the world thinks. What upsets people more: janet Jackson's bare boob or the murder of millions of people since the end since 1950 under the auspices of US foreign policy? Marley MarleySadly so. Our own Prime Minister is looking a rather sheepish, too.Di

And with any luck it will be his final undoing. I'm waiting to see
the lapdog get his arse firmly booted.

Julia

In article <c1o22097on23783qdrj2ssh20otkqtr7os@4ax.com>,
Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:Sadly so. Our own Prime Minister is looking a rather sheepish, too.DiAnd with any luck it will be his final undoing. I'm waiting to seethe lapdog get his arse firmly booted.Julia


Tell us more. Who is he, what party is he from and why is he looking
sheepish, because of the Iraq war???? Details, I want details.

TIA

Linda

..
..
..
..
..
..

On 5 Feb 2004 16:45:10 -0500, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney)
wrote:
In article <c1o22097on23783qdrj2ssh20otkqtr7os@4ax.com>,Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:Sadly so. Our own Prime Minister is looking a rather sheepish, too.DiAnd with any luck it will be his final undoing. I'm waiting to seethe lapdog get his arse firmly booted.JuliaTell us more. Who is he, what party is he from and why is he lookingsheepish, because of the Iraq war???? Details, I want details.TIALinda

Our PM is John Howard from the Liberal Party (the conservative side of
politics, despite the name of the party). He followed Bush and Blair
in supporting the war and committing Aussie troops to the battle even
though Oz saw the biggest street protests since the Vietnam days.

The best image of Howard I saw was the one depicting him as Bush's
dog, trailing behind Bush on a leash and every few seconds running up
his bum.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/16/1045330467183.html

There is a very good article at
http://www.theage.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2003/07/27/1059244481459.html
written by a professor of politics. He outlines the issues I feel so
frustrated about. The "Tampa" referred to in the article was a
Norwegian cargo ship that rescued 400+ refugees from Afghanistan and
Iraq who werre attempting to get to Australia on a sinking boat. They
were rescued in Australian territorial waters but when the Norwegian
ship attempted to unload them, it was forced back to sea by our govt.
The "children overboard" fiasco was another situation of refugees
trying to come in by boat, who were accused by our PM of tossing their
children overboard in an attempt to force their rescue by Oz
authorities. He made some comment that Australia wouldn't want people
who would do that to their children to come into our country. It was
all lies, and when he was forced to produce photographic proof it was
eventually proved that the story was utterly fabricated in an attempt
to demonise the refugees.

My hopes are pinned on the new Labor Party leader, who is so far
looking like he could provide the genuine opposition we have been
lacking for the last several years.

Julia

Thanks for the summary, Julia. Sounds like a real winner (not!)

I do hope the Labour Party comes up with strong opposition.

Just read the glad news today that Kerry is leading Bush in some of the
polls. Of course it is a long time until the Nov. election, but Bush is
far from invulnerable.

It has been great fun this week to watch the Bushistas flip flop on WMD in
Iraq. Even Irving Kristol, a scary conservative pundit admitted today
that the White House is handling the whole situation very badly.

Linda

Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c1o22097on23783qdrj2ssh20otkqtr7os@4ax.com>... On 3 Feb 2004 19:59:53 -0800, patrice68@bigpond.com.au (Dian) wrote:> > > Since when are WE the laughing stock of the world? Why don't you go > join Jackie in Canada where you two can bash the United States > together? For a long time. You need to get out of the confines of the camp and see what the rest of the world thinks. What upsets people more: janet Jackson's bare boob or the murder of millions of people since the end since 1950 under the auspices of US foreign policy? Marley MarleySadly so. Our own Prime Minister is looking a rather sheepish, too.Di And with any luck it will be his final undoing. I'm waiting to see the lapdog get his arse firmly booted. Julia

Yes Godwilling. My only concern is that we'll probably end up having the
country being run by Abbott and Costello.

Di

On 7 Feb 2004 02:45:06 -0800, patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote:
Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c1o22097on23783qdrj2ssh20otkqtr7os@4ax.com>... On 3 Feb 2004 19:59:53 -0800, patrice68@bigpond.com.au (Dian) wrote: >> >> > Since when are WE the laughing stock of the world? Why don't you go> > join Jackie in Canada where you two can bash the United States> > together?>> For a long time. You need to get out of the confines of the camp and see> what the rest of the world thinks. What upsets people more: janet> Jackson's bare boob or the murder of millions of people since the end since> 1950 under the auspices of US foreign policy?>> Marley>> MarleySadly so. Our own Prime Minister is looking a rather sheepish, too.Di And with any luck it will be his final undoing. I'm waiting to see the lapdog get his arse firmly booted. JuliaYes Godwilling. My only concern is that we'll probably end up having thecountry being run by Abbott and Costello.Di


Our new Prime Minister went south..

He and Mr Bush are friends..

We are waiting for our lucrative contracts to rebuild Iraq..

"Happy days are here again.. The skies are almost clear again"


Jackie.. who is dancing a two step out the door..

Jackie <forgetit@me.com> wrote in message news:<4o2a20dlcrrcmj2truaelftig130fu51gf@4ax.com>... On 7 Feb 2004 02:45:06 -0800, patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote:Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c1o22097on23783qdrj2ssh20otkqtr7os@4ax.com>... On 3 Feb 2004 19:59:53 -0800, patrice68@bigpond.com.au (Dian) wrote: > >> > >> > Since when are WE the laughing stock of the world? Why don't you go >> > join Jackie in Canada where you two can bash the United States >> > together? >> >> For a long time. You need to get out of the confines of the camp and see >> what the rest of the world thinks. What upsets people more: janet >> Jackson's bare boob or the murder of millions of people since the end since >> 1950 under the auspices of US foreign policy? >> >> Marley >> >> Marley > >Sadly so. Our own Prime Minister is looking a rather sheepish, too. > >Di And with any luck it will be his final undoing. I'm waiting to see the lapdog get his arse firmly booted. JuliaYes Godwilling. My only concern is that we'll probably end up having thecountry being run by Abbott and Costello.Di Our new Prime Minister went south.. He and Mr Bush are friends.. We are waiting for our lucrative contracts to rebuild Iraq.. "Happy days are here again.. The skies are almost clear again" Jackie.. who is dancing a two step out the door..

Lol!

Apropos Iraq. After reading the post pb just put up one has to wonder
if Saddam isn't Bush's new right hand man.

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.adoption&selm=c03ft201ug4%40enews2.newsguy.com

In article <9a095db9.0402080402.530abda3@posting.google.com>,
patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote:

Apropos Iraq. After reading the post pb just put up one has to wonder if Saddam isn't Bush's new right hand man.


Your PM Mr. Howard is willing to stand up to Saddam's scum, the kind of
people documented in this story on one of your own newspapers:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/07/1075854110499.html

Story below. By opposing Saddam's removal, you allied yourself with the
men who did this. Think about it.



steve
=====
Iraqi refugee braves death threats

By Virginia Whetton
February 8, 2004
The Sun-Herald

Iraqi refugee Guzin Najim thought she'd be safe when she escaped to
Australia after her diplomat husband was murdered by Saddam Hussein's
brutal secret police and she'd been forced to live, with her children,
for three years under house arrest.

But the terror has reached Sydney. Religious fanatics faithful to the
murderous tyrant have delivered death threats to her home in the city's
south-western suburbs, forcing her once again to flee for her life.

Now Ms Najim, 47, has moved to a secret location to hide from the men
who have ordered that her throat be cut for speaking out publicly
against Saddam's brutal regime.

"At first, I was very frightened," said Ms Najim at her new home. "I
thought, 'How can this happen in Sydney, where life is so peaceful and
everyone smiles?' But then I became angry, and I decided that these
fanatics will not succeed in intimidating me.

"I will not be silenced. I lived in fear for so long over there. I
cannot let that happen again in Australia."

The threats started after the release of the book The Promise, in which
author Sandra Lee told of Ms Najim's terrible ordeal at the hands of the
Iraqi secret police.

Her husband Ra'ad was taken away from their home in Baghdad by two men
and was dumped back, paralysed, fevered and barely able to speak a few
hours later. After four days of agony he died, at the age of 48. It was
thought he'd been fed rat poison, Saddam's favourite method of
assassination.

Ms Najim was held with her two children under house arrest for three
years, during which time she was beaten regularly and had her hand
broken by her captors. Finally, she escaped to Jordan but, after death
threats from those loyal to the Iraqi dictator, she and her children
were accepted as refugees by the United Nations and chose to come and
live in the relative sanctity of Australia.

But when the book caught the country's attention and she was asked to
appear on national TV and radio to talk about her ordeal, the cold chill
of religious fanaticism suddenly arrived on her Sydney doorstep.

She received two death threats over the intercom of her home, and
another written death threat was slid under her front door. Bankstown
police are investigating the threats and studying the letter.

"They wrote that I am out of Islam and I must be killed," Ms Najim said.

"It said that I support Americans.

"It was such a shock that this happened in Australia. But then I became
very depressed. I didn't eat for two days. I started to think that I had
brought my children to safety to this country, and now I am ready to
die. I felt tired of it all and wanted to sleep and escape from reality.

"But then I became very angry. Even if they are determined to kill me, I
will not stop talking. I will never change my mind."

In her new home with her son Mohammed, 23, and daughter Lina, 28,
living nearby, Ms Najim is trying hard to rebuild her life.

>Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: Steve White steve@spam.me.neverDate: 2/8/2004 5:26 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <steve-08C763.14560308022004@netnews.comcast.net>In article <9a095db9.0402080402.530abda3@posting.google.com>, patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote: Apropos Iraq. After reading the post pb just put up one has to wonder if Saddam isn't Bush's new right hand man.Your PM Mr. Howard is willing to stand up to Saddam's scum, the kind ofpeople documented in this story on one of your own newspapers:http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/07/1075854110499.htmlStory below. By opposing Saddam's removal, you allied yourself with themen who did this. Think about it.


Story below. By opposing Bush's removal, you allied yourself with the men who
did this. Think about it.

Remembering Those who Lost Their Lives
in the Iraq War of 2003



The War Dead -- Long May We Remember Them
To change sort order click on headings.
Date Rank First M Last Age City State Unit Branch Notes Country
2004-02-03 2nd Lt Seth J Dvorin 24 NJ Battery B, 3rd Battalion, 62nd
Air Defense Artillery Regiment Army Dvorin died Feb. 3 in Iskandariyah,
Iraq, when an improvised explosive device (IED) exploded while he was
conducting counter-IED operations along a supply route. US
2004-02-01 Pfc Armando Soriano 20 Houston TX howitzer battery, 3rd
Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment Army Soriano died on Feb. 1 in
Haditha, Iraq. Soriano was traveling in a two-vehicle convoy on a supply route
when weather conditions caused his vehicle to slide off the road and roll over.
He died as a result of his injuries. US
2004-02-01 Staff Sgt Roger C Turner, Jr 37 Parkersburg WV Headquarters
and Headquarters Troop, 1st Squadron, 10th Cavalry Regiment, 4th Infantry
Division Army Turner died Feb. 1 in Anaconda, Iraq. Turner was in his
sleeping quarters when the logistical support area came under mortar attack. He
died as a result of his injuries. US
2004-01-31 Cpl Juan C Cabral Banuelos 25 Emporia KS Company A, 4th
Forward Support Battalion, 4th Infantry Division (Mech) Army Cabral Banuelos
was killed when his vehicle was hit on Jan. 31 by an improvised explosive
device during convoy operations in Kirkuk, Iraq. US
2004-01-31 Pfc Holly J McGeogh 19 Taylor MI Company A, 4th Forward
Support Battalion, 4th Infantry Division (Mech) Army McGeogh was killed when
her vehicle was hit on Jan. 31 by an improvised explosive device during convoy
operations in Kirkuk, Iraq. US
2004-01-31 Sgt Eliu A Miersandoval 27 San Clemente CA Company A, 4th
Forward Support Battalion, 4th Infantry Division (Mech) Army Miersandoval
was killed when his vehicle was hit on Jan. 31 by an improvised explosive
device during convoy operations in Kirkuk, Iraq. US
2004-01-29 Staff Sgt Sean G Landrus 31 Thompson OH Company B, 1st
Engineer Battalion, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (Mech) Army
Landrus died on Jan. 29 at the 28th Combat Support Hospital in Iraq. He died
as a result of injuries sustained on Jan. 27th when a roadside improvised
explosive device (IED) exploded in Khalidiyah, Iraq. US
2004-01-29 Pfc Luis A Moreno 19 Bronx NY Battery A, 4th Battalion, 1st
Field Artillery Army Moreno died on Jan. 29, 2004, at the Lakenheath Medical
Treatment Facility, United Kingdom. Moreno was shot on Jan. 23 while he was
guarding a gas station in Baghdad, Iraq. He later died of his injuries. US
2004-01-27 Capt Matthew J August 28 RI Company B, 1st Engineer
Battalion, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (Mech) Army August
was killed on Jan. 27 in an improvised explosive device attack in Khalidiyah,
just east of Ar Ramadi, Iraq. US
2004-01-27 Sgt 1st Class James T Hoffman 41 Whitesburg KY Company B, 1st
Engineer Battalion, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (Mech) Army
Hoffman was killed on Jan. 27 in an improvised explosive device attack in
Khalidiyah, just east of Ar Ramadi, Iraq. US
2004-01-27 2nd Lt Luke S James 24 OK 2nd Battalion, 505th Infantry
Army James was killed in an improvised explosive device attack on Jan. 27
near Iskandariyah. US
2004-01-27 Staff Sgt Lester O Kinney II 27 Zanesville OH 2nd Battalion,
505th Infantry Army Kinney was killed in an improvised explosive device
attack on Jan. 27 near Iskandariyah. US
2004-01-27 Sgt Travis A Moothart 23 Brownsville OR Company B, 1st
Engineer Battalion, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (Mech) Army
Moothart was killed on Jan. 27 in an improvised explosive device attack in
Khalidiyah, just east of Ar Ramadi, Iraq. US
2004-01-27 Sgt Cory R Mracek 26 Hay Springs NE 3rd Battalion, 319th
Field Artillery Army Mracek was killed in an improvised explosive device
attack on Jan. 27 near Iskandariyah. US
2004-01-25 Staff Sgt Christoper Bunda 29 WA 2nd Battalion, 3rd
Infantry Army Bunda is listed as DUSTWUN. On Jan. 25 Bunda’s boat capsized
during a river patrol on the Tigris River. US
2004-01-25 Chief Warrant Officer Patrick D Dorf 32 MI 3rd Squadron,
17th Cavalry, 10th Mountain Division, Army Dorff’s helicopter went down in
the Tigris River during a search. US
2004-01-25 1st Lt Adam G Mooney 28 Cambridge MD 3rd Squadron, 17th
Cavalry, 10th Mountain Division Army Mooney is listed as DUSTWUN. Mooney’s
helicopter went down in the Tigris River during a search. US
2004-01-24 Spc Jason K Chappell 22 Hemet CA Company B, 1st Squadron, 9th
Cavalry Army Chappell was killed when a vehicle-based improvised explosive
device detonated in Khalidiyah, Iraq, Jan. 24. US
2004-01-24 Pfc Ervin Dervishi 21 Fort Worth TX Company B, 1st
Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Dervishi died
Jan. 24 in Baji, Iraq, during a combat patrol when a rocket-propelled grenade
hit the Bradley Fighting Vehicle in which he was traveling. He was evacuated to
the 28th Combat Support Hospital where he later died. US
2004-01-24 Staff Sgt Kenneth W Hendrickson 41 Bismarck ND 957th Engineer
Company, 130th Engineer Brigade Army Hendrickson died as a result of
injuries on Jan. 24 after the convoy he was in was attacked with an improvised
explosive device north of Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-24 Sgt Randy S Rosenberg 23 Berlin NH Company B, 1st Squadron,
9th Cavalry Army Rosenberg was killed when a vehicle-based improvised
explosive device detonated in Khalidiyah, Iraq, Jan. 24. US
2004-01-24 Sgt Keith L Smette 25 Fargo ND 957th Engineer Company, 130th
Engineer Brigade Army Fargo died as a result of injuries on Jan. 24 after
the convoy he was in was attacked with an improvised explosive device north of
Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-24 Spc William R Sturges Jr 24 Spring Church PA Company B, 1st
Squadron, 9th Cavalry Army Sturges was killed when a vehicle-based
improvised explosive device detonated in Khalidiyah, Iraq, Jan. 24. US
2004-01-23 Chief Warrant Officer 2nd Clas Michael T Blaise 29 TN 2nd
Battalion, 17th Cavalry Regiment, 101st Aviation Brigade Army Blaise was
killed Jan 23 when his OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopter crashed on its way back
from a combat mission near Mosul in northern Iraq. US
2004-01-23 Chief Warrant Officer 2nd Clas Brian D Hazelgrove 29 Fort
Rucker AL 3rd Battalion, 17th Cavalry Regiment, 10th Aviation Brigade, 10th
Mountain Division (Light Infantr Army Hazelgrove was killed Jan 23 when his
OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopter crashed on its way back from a combat mission
near Mosul in northern Iraq. US
2004-01-21 Spc Gabriel T Palacios 22 Lynn MA 151st Adjutant General
Postal Detachment 3 Army Palacios was killed in a mortar attack on a forward
operating base near Ba\'qubah the evening of Jan. 21 US
2004-01-21 Pfc James David Parker 20 Bryan TX 588th Engineer Battalion
(Heavy), 4th Infantry Division Army Parker was killed in a mortar attack on
a forward operating base near Ba\'qubah the evening of Jan. 21. US
2004-01-18 Master Sgt Kelly L Hornbeck 36 Fort Worth TX Company C, 3rd
Battalion, 10th Special Forces Group Army Hornbeck died of wounds Jan. 18 at
28th Combat Support Hospital (CSH) in Iraq. On Jan. 16, Master Sgt. Hornbeck
sustained injuries when an improvised explosive device hit his vehicle, south
of Samarra, Iraq. Hornbeck was initially evacuated to the 21st CSH and then
moved to the 28th CSH for further treatment where he later died. US
2004-01-17 Pfc Cody J Orr 21 Ruskin FL 2nd Battalion, 20th Field
Artillery Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Orr was one of three soldiers
killed while conducting a surveillance sweep for IEDs north of Baghdad when the
attack occurred. The soldiers were killed when their Bradley Fighting Vehicle
struck an improvised explosive device (IED) and overturned. US
2004-01-17 Spc Larry E Polley, Jr Center TX 2nd Battalion, 20th Field
Artillery Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Polley was one of three
soldiers killed while conducting a surveillance sweep for IEDs north of Baghdad
when the attack occurred. The soldiers were killed when their Bradley Fighting
Vehicle struck an improvised explosive device (IED) and overturned. US
2004-01-17 Sgt Edmond L Randle 26 Miami FL 2nd Battalion, 20th Field
Artillery Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Randle was one of three
soldiers killed while conducting a surveillance sweep for IEDs north of Baghdad
when the attack occurred. The soldiers were killed when their Bradley Fighting
Vehicle struck an improvised explosive device (IED) and overturned. US
2004-01-16 Staff Sgt Roland L Castro 26 San Antonio TX Battery A, 1st
Battalion, 12th Field Artillery Army Castro died Jan. 16, in Camp Cedar II,
Iraq, of a non-hostile gunshot wound. US
2004-01-14 Sgt Keicia M Hines 27 Citrus Heights CA 108th Military
Police, Combat Support Co Army Hines died on Jan. 14 when she was struck by
a vehicle on Mosul Airfield in Mosul, Iraq. US
2004-01-12 Staff Sgt Ricky L Crockett 37 Broxton GA Company D, 51st
Signal Battalion, XVIII Airborne Corps Army Crockett was killed Jan. 12 in
Baghdad, Iraq. He was struck by an improvised explosive device while on a
mounted patrol. US
2004-01-08 Staff Sgt Craig Davis 37 Opelousas LA 603rd Transportation
Company, 142nd Corps Support Battalion Army Davis was killed when his UH-60
Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-08 Spc Michael A Diraimondo 22 Simi Valley CA 571st Medical
Company (Air Ambulance) Army Diraimondo was killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk
helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-08 Spc Christopher A Golby 26 Johnstown PA 571st Medical Company
(Air Ambulance) Army Golby was killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter
crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-08 Sgt 1st Class Gregory B Hicks 35 Duff TN Company B, 1st
Battalion, 9th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division Army Hicks was killed
when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-08 Spc Nathaniel H Johnson 22 Augusta GA Company D (Aviation),
82nd Support Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division Army Johnson was killed when
his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-08 Chief Warrant Officer Philip A Johnson, Jr 31 AL 571st
Medical Company (Air Ambulance) Army Johnson was killed when his UH-60
Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-08 Chief Warrant Officer Ian D Manuel 23 FL 16th Signal
Battalion Army Manuel was killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed
Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US
2004-01-08 Sgt Jeffrey C Walker 33 Havre de Grace MD Company C, 782nd
Main Support Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division Army Walker was killed Jan. 8
in Fallujah, Iraq. Walker was onboard a UH-60 when it crashed while on a
MEDEVAC mission. US
2004-01-08 Chief Warrant Officer Aaron A Weaver 32 FL C Troop, 1st
Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division Army Weaver was
killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq.
US
2004-01-07 Lance Cpl Andrew Jason Craw 21 Clackmannanshire 1st
Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders English Army Craw died following a
tragic incident on a training range near Basrah. UK
2004-01-07 Pfc Jesse D Mizener 24 Auburn CA 542nd Maintenance Company,
44th Corps Support Battalion, 593rd Corps Support Group Army Mizener was
killed Jan. 7 in Baghdad, Iraq. Mizener was killed when a mortar round hit the
Logistics Base. US
2004-01-05 Spc Luke P Frist 20 West Lafayette IN 209th Quartermaster
Company, U.S. Army Reserve Army Frist died of wounds on Jan. 5 at Brooke
Army Medical Center, Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Frist was part of a convoy that
was struck with an improvised explosive device in Baghdad, Iraq. US
2004-01-02 Spc Solomon C Bangayan 24 Jay VT 2nd Battalion, 325th
Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division Army Bangayan was killed
on Jan. 2, 2004, in Baghdad, Iraq, when his convoy was ambushed by the enemy
who used an improvised explosive device (IED), small arms fire, and a
rocket-propelled grenade (RPG). US
2004-01-02 Capt Kimberly N Hampton 27 Easly SC 1st Battalion, 82nd
Aviation Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division Army Hampton was killed on Jan.
2, 2004, in Fallujah, Iraq. Hampton, was the pilot on a Kiowa, OH-58,
Observation Helicopter when it was shot down by enemy ground fire and crashed.
Hampton died as a result of her injuries. US
2004-01-02 Capt Eric T Paliwoda 28 TX 4th Engineer Battalion, 3rd
Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division (Mechanized) Army Paliwoda was
killed on Jan. 2 in Balad, Iraq. Paliwoda was in his command post when it came
under mortar attack. He died of injuries sustained in the attack. US
2004-01-02 Spc Marc S Seiden 26 Brigantine NJ 2nd Battalion, 325th
Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division Army killed on Jan. 2,
2004, in Baghdad, Iraq, when their convoy was ambushed by the enemy who used an
improvised explosive device (IED), small arms fire, and a rocket-propelled
grenade (RPG). US
2004-01-01 Sgt Dennis A Corral 33 Kearney NE 1st Engineer Battalion, 1st
Brigade, 1st Infantry Division Army Corral died on Jan. 1 in Baghdad, Iraq.
He was in a convoy going to the Baghdad International Airport when his vehicle
went out of control and rolled over. US
2004-01-01 Sgt Norman Patterson 28 Staffordshire Cheshire Regiment
Patterson died in a road traffic accident in Baghdad. UK
2004-01-01 Major James Stenner 30 Monmouthshire Welsh Guards
Stenner died in a road traffic accident in Baghdad. UK
2003-12-30 Spc Justin C Pollard 21 Foothill Ranch CA 2nd Squadron, 3rd
Armored Cavalry Regiment Army Pollard died on Dec. 30 in Baghdad, Iraq
Pollard died as a result of injuries sustained in a non-combat related
incident. US
2003-12-28 Captain Ernesto M Blanco 28 TX 1st Battalion, 504th
Blanco was killed on Dec. 28, in Qaryat Ash Shababi, Iraq. Blanco was
conducting a support mission when an improvised explosive device hit his
vehicle. US
2003-12-28 Pvt Rey D Cuervo 24 Laguna Vista TX 1st Squadron, 2nd Armored
Cavalry Army Cuervo Texas, was killed on Dec. 28 in Baghdad, Iraq. Cuervo
was on a mounted patrol when an improvised explosive device hit his vehicle.
US
2003-12-28 Sgt Curt E Jordan Jr 25 Green Acres WA 14th Combat Engineer
Battalion (Corps) (Wheeled), 555th Combat Engineer Group Army Jordan died on
Dec. 28 near Bayji, Iraq. Jordan died of non-combat injuries. US
2003-12-28 Lt Nikolay Angelov Saruev 26 Krumovgrad Bulgarian
Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Saruev died as a result of injuries
sustained in a car bombing. Bulgaria
2003-12-27 Lt Col Amporrn Chulert Army Engineering Corps Thailand
Army Chulert was killed in a car bombing near Karbala. Thailand
2003-12-27 Senior Sgt Ivan Hristov Indzhov 36 Ustrem Bulgarian
Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Indzhov was killed in a car bombing
incident. Bulgaria
2003-12-27 Capt Georgi Hristov Kachorin 29 Razlog Bulgarian
Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Kachorin was killed in a car bombing
incident. Bulgaria
2003-12-27 Private Svilen Simeonov Kirov 25 Dobrich Bulgarian
Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Kirov was killed in a car bombing incident.
Bulgaria
2003-12-27 Lt Col Mit Klaharn 402nd Engineering Battalion Thailand
Army Klaharn was killed in a car bomb incident near Karbala. Thailand
2003-12-27 Junior Sgt Anton Valentinov Petrov 26 Russe Bulgarian
Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Petrov was killed in a car bombing
incident. Bulgaria
2003-12-26 Spc Charles G Haight 23 Jacksonville AL 14th Engineer
Battalion, 555th Engineer Group Army Haight was killed on Dec. 26, 2003, in
Iraq. Haight was in a convoy vehicle which struck an improvised explosive
device. US
2003-12-26 Spc Michael G Mihalakis 18 San Jose CA 270th Military Police
Company, 49th Military Police Battalion, 100th Troop Command, California Comba
Army Mihalakis died on Dec. 26, 2003, in Baghdad, Iraq. Mihalakis died as a
result of injuries sustained in a non-combat vehicle accident at the Baghdad
International Airport. US
2003-12-26 Staff Sgt Michael J Sutter 28 Tinley Park IL 745th Ordnance
Company, 79th Ordnance Battalion, Army National Guard Army Sutter was killed
Dec. 26 in Baqubah, Iraq. Sutter was attempting to render safe an improved
explosive device when it detonated. US
2003-12-25 Staff Sgt Thomas W Christensen 42 Atlantic Mine MI 652nd
Engineer Battalion, U.S. Army Reserve Army Christensen was killed on Dec. 25
in Baquba, Iraq, when his living area came under mortar attack. US
2003-12-25 Staff Sgt Stephen C Hattamer 43 Gwinn MI 652nd Engineer
Battalion, U.S. Army Reserve Army Hattamer was killed on Dec. 25 in Baquba,
Iraq, when his living area came under mortar attack. US
2003-12-24 Sgt Benjamin W Biskie 27 Vermilion OH 5th Engineer Battalion,
1st Engineer Brigade Army Biskie was killed on Dec. 24, when his vehicle
struck an improvised explosive device on Highway One near Samarra, Iraq. US
2003-12-24 Sgt Major Eric F Cooke 43 Scottsdale AZ 1st Brigade, 1st
Armored Division Army Cooke was killed on Dec. 24, 2003, in Baghdad, Iraq.
Cooke was in a convoy vehicle that struck an improvised explosive device. US
2003-12-24 Capt Christopher F Soelzer 26 SD 5th Engineer Battalion, 1st
Engineer Brigade Army Soelzer was killed on Dec. 24, when his vehicle struck
an improvised explosive device on Highway One near Samarra, Iraq. US
2003-12-24 Major Christopher J Splinter 43 Platteville WI 5th Engineer
Battalion, 1st Engineer Brigade Army Splinter was killed on Dec. 24, when
his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device on Highway One near Samarra,
Iraq. US
2003-12-24 Sgt Michael E Yashinski 24 Monument CO 501st Forward Support
Company, 173rd Airborne Brigade Army Yashinski died on Dec. 24, 2003, in
Kirkuk, Iraq. Yashinski died of injuries sustained while running a
communication wire. US
2003-12-22 Pfc Stuart W Moore 21 Livingston TX 2nd Battalion, 3rd Field
Artillery Regiment, 1st Armored Division Army Moore was killed on Dec. 22 in
Baghdad, Iraq, when an improvised explosive device struck his convoy. US


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Created this page in 0.23 seconds

I don't know why we can't just hate them all and boot them out: Bush,
Saddam, Blair, Howard, and anybody else who aligns themselves with these
beasts.

Marley


"Chosenchildinc1" <chosenchildinc1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040208164829.22644.00001580@mb-m18.aol.com...Subject: Re: Excellent Post and Suggestions To HelpFrom: Steve White steve@spam.me.neverDate: 2/8/2004 5:26 PM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <steve-08C763.14560308022004@netnews.comcast.net>In article <9a095db9.0402080402.530abda3@posting.google.com>, patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote: Apropos Iraq. After reading the post pb just put up one has to wonder if Saddam isn't Bush's new right hand man.Your PM Mr. Howard is willing to stand up to Saddam's scum, the kind ofpeople documented in this story on one of your own newspapers:http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/07/1075854110499.htmlStory below. By opposing Saddam's removal, you allied yourself with themen who did this. Think about it. Story below. By opposing Bush's removal, you allied yourself with the men
who did this. Think about it. Remembering Those who Lost Their Lives in the Iraq War of 2003 The War Dead -- Long May We Remember Them To change sort order click on headings. Date Rank First M Last Age City State Unit Branch Notes Country 2004-02-03 2nd Lt Seth J Dvorin 24 NJ Battery B, 3rd Battalion,
62nd Air Defense Artillery Regiment Army Dvorin died Feb. 3 in Iskandariyah, Iraq, when an improvised explosive device (IED) exploded while he was conducting counter-IED operations along a supply route. US 2004-02-01 Pfc Armando Soriano 20 Houston TX howitzer battery, 3rd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment Army Soriano died on Feb. 1 in Haditha, Iraq. Soriano was traveling in a two-vehicle convoy on a supply
route when weather conditions caused his vehicle to slide off the road and roll
over. He died as a result of his injuries. US 2004-02-01 Staff Sgt Roger C Turner, Jr 37 Parkersburg WV
Headquarters and Headquarters Troop, 1st Squadron, 10th Cavalry Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Turner died Feb. 1 in Anaconda, Iraq. Turner was in his sleeping quarters when the logistical support area came under mortar
attack. He died as a result of his injuries. US 2004-01-31 Cpl Juan C Cabral Banuelos 25 Emporia KS Company A, 4th Forward Support Battalion, 4th Infantry Division (Mech) Army Cabral
Banuelos was killed when his vehicle was hit on Jan. 31 by an improvised explosive device during convoy operations in Kirkuk, Iraq. US 2004-01-31 Pfc Holly J McGeogh 19 Taylor MI Company A, 4th Forward Support Battalion, 4th Infantry Division (Mech) Army McGeogh was killed
when her vehicle was hit on Jan. 31 by an improvised explosive device during
convoy operations in Kirkuk, Iraq. US 2004-01-31 Sgt Eliu A Miersandoval 27 San Clemente CA Company A,
4th Forward Support Battalion, 4th Infantry Division (Mech) Army
Miersandoval was killed when his vehicle was hit on Jan. 31 by an improvised explosive device during convoy operations in Kirkuk, Iraq. US 2004-01-29 Staff Sgt Sean G Landrus 31 Thompson OH Company B, 1st Engineer Battalion, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (Mech)
Army Landrus died on Jan. 29 at the 28th Combat Support Hospital in Iraq. He
died as a result of injuries sustained on Jan. 27th when a roadside improvised explosive device (IED) exploded in Khalidiyah, Iraq. US 2004-01-29 Pfc Luis A Moreno 19 Bronx NY Battery A, 4th Battalion,
1st Field Artillery Army Moreno died on Jan. 29, 2004, at the Lakenheath
Medical Treatment Facility, United Kingdom. Moreno was shot on Jan. 23 while he
was guarding a gas station in Baghdad, Iraq. He later died of his injuries.
US 2004-01-27 Capt Matthew J August 28 RI Company B, 1st Engineer Battalion, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (Mech) Army
August was killed on Jan. 27 in an improvised explosive device attack in
Khalidiyah, just east of Ar Ramadi, Iraq. US 2004-01-27 Sgt 1st Class James T Hoffman 41 Whitesburg KY Company
B, 1st Engineer Battalion, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (Mech)
Army Hoffman was killed on Jan. 27 in an improvised explosive device attack
in Khalidiyah, just east of Ar Ramadi, Iraq. US 2004-01-27 2nd Lt Luke S James 24 OK 2nd Battalion, 505th Infantry Army James was killed in an improvised explosive device attack on Jan.
27 near Iskandariyah. US 2004-01-27 Staff Sgt Lester O Kinney II 27 Zanesville OH 2nd
Battalion, 505th Infantry Army Kinney was killed in an improvised explosive device attack on Jan. 27 near Iskandariyah. US 2004-01-27 Sgt Travis A Moothart 23 Brownsville OR Company B, 1st Engineer Battalion, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (Mech)
Army Moothart was killed on Jan. 27 in an improvised explosive device attack
in Khalidiyah, just east of Ar Ramadi, Iraq. US 2004-01-27 Sgt Cory R Mracek 26 Hay Springs NE 3rd Battalion, 319th Field Artillery Army Mracek was killed in an improvised explosive
device attack on Jan. 27 near Iskandariyah. US 2004-01-25 Staff Sgt Christoper Bunda 29 WA 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Army Bunda is listed as DUSTWUN. On Jan. 25 Bunda's boat
capsized during a river patrol on the Tigris River. US 2004-01-25 Chief Warrant Officer Patrick D Dorf 32 MI 3rd
Squadron, 17th Cavalry, 10th Mountain Division, Army Dorff's helicopter went down
in the Tigris River during a search. US 2004-01-25 1st Lt Adam G Mooney 28 Cambridge MD 3rd Squadron, 17th Cavalry, 10th Mountain Division Army Mooney is listed as DUSTWUN.
Mooney's helicopter went down in the Tigris River during a search. US 2004-01-24 Spc Jason K Chappell 22 Hemet CA Company B, 1st
Squadron, 9th Cavalry Army Chappell was killed when a vehicle-based improvised
explosive device detonated in Khalidiyah, Iraq, Jan. 24. US 2004-01-24 Pfc Ervin Dervishi 21 Fort Worth TX Company B, 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Dervishi
died Jan. 24 in Baji, Iraq, during a combat patrol when a rocket-propelled
grenade hit the Bradley Fighting Vehicle in which he was traveling. He was
evacuated to the 28th Combat Support Hospital where he later died. US 2004-01-24 Staff Sgt Kenneth W Hendrickson 41 Bismarck ND 957th
Engineer Company, 130th Engineer Brigade Army Hendrickson died as a result of injuries on Jan. 24 after the convoy he was in was attacked with an
improvised explosive device north of Fallujah, Iraq. US 2004-01-24 Sgt Randy S Rosenberg 23 Berlin NH Company B, 1st
Squadron, 9th Cavalry Army Rosenberg was killed when a vehicle-based improvised explosive device detonated in Khalidiyah, Iraq, Jan. 24. US 2004-01-24 Sgt Keith L Smette 25 Fargo ND 957th Engineer Company,
130th Engineer Brigade Army Fargo died as a result of injuries on Jan. 24
after the convoy he was in was attacked with an improvised explosive device
north of Fallujah, Iraq. US 2004-01-24 Spc William R Sturges Jr 24 Spring Church PA Company B,
1st Squadron, 9th Cavalry Army Sturges was killed when a vehicle-based improvised explosive device detonated in Khalidiyah, Iraq, Jan. 24. US 2004-01-23 Chief Warrant Officer 2nd Clas Michael T Blaise 29 TN
2nd Battalion, 17th Cavalry Regiment, 101st Aviation Brigade Army Blaise
was killed Jan 23 when his OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopter crashed on its way
back from a combat mission near Mosul in northern Iraq. US 2004-01-23 Chief Warrant Officer 2nd Clas Brian D Hazelgrove 29 Fort Rucker AL 3rd Battalion, 17th Cavalry Regiment, 10th Aviation Brigade,
10th Mountain Division (Light Infantr Army Hazelgrove was killed Jan 23 when
his OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopter crashed on its way back from a combat
mission near Mosul in northern Iraq. US 2004-01-21 Spc Gabriel T Palacios 22 Lynn MA 151st Adjutant General Postal Detachment 3 Army Palacios was killed in a mortar attack on a
forward operating base near Ba\'qubah the evening of Jan. 21 US 2004-01-21 Pfc James David Parker 20 Bryan TX 588th Engineer
Battalion (Heavy), 4th Infantry Division Army Parker was killed in a mortar
attack on a forward operating base near Ba\'qubah the evening of Jan. 21. US 2004-01-18 Master Sgt Kelly L Hornbeck 36 Fort Worth TX Company C,
3rd Battalion, 10th Special Forces Group Army Hornbeck died of wounds Jan.
18 at 28th Combat Support Hospital (CSH) in Iraq. On Jan. 16, Master Sgt.
Hornbeck sustained injuries when an improvised explosive device hit his vehicle,
south of Samarra, Iraq. Hornbeck was initially evacuated to the 21st CSH and
then moved to the 28th CSH for further treatment where he later died. US 2004-01-17 Pfc Cody J Orr 21 Ruskin FL 2nd Battalion, 20th Field Artillery Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Orr was one of three
soldiers killed while conducting a surveillance sweep for IEDs north of Baghdad
when the attack occurred. The soldiers were killed when their Bradley Fighting
Vehicle struck an improvised explosive device (IED) and overturned. US 2004-01-17 Spc Larry E Polley, Jr Center TX 2nd Battalion, 20th
Field Artillery Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Polley was one of three soldiers killed while conducting a surveillance sweep for IEDs north of
Baghdad when the attack occurred. The soldiers were killed when their Bradley
Fighting Vehicle struck an improvised explosive device (IED) and overturned. US 2004-01-17 Sgt Edmond L Randle 26 Miami FL 2nd Battalion, 20th
Field Artillery Regiment, 4th Infantry Division Army Randle was one of three soldiers killed while conducting a surveillance sweep for IEDs north of
Baghdad when the attack occurred. The soldiers were killed when their Bradley
Fighting Vehicle struck an improvised explosive device (IED) and overturned. US 2004-01-16 Staff Sgt Roland L Castro 26 San Antonio TX Battery A,
1st Battalion, 12th Field Artillery Army Castro died Jan. 16, in Camp Cedar
II, Iraq, of a non-hostile gunshot wound. US 2004-01-14 Sgt Keicia M Hines 27 Citrus Heights CA 108th Military Police, Combat Support Co Army Hines died on Jan. 14 when she was
struck by a vehicle on Mosul Airfield in Mosul, Iraq. US 2004-01-12 Staff Sgt Ricky L Crockett 37 Broxton GA Company D, 51st Signal Battalion, XVIII Airborne Corps Army Crockett was killed Jan. 12
in Baghdad, Iraq. He was struck by an improvised explosive device while on a mounted patrol. US 2004-01-08 Staff Sgt Craig Davis 37 Opelousas LA 603rd
Transportation Company, 142nd Corps Support Battalion Army Davis was killed when his
UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US 2004-01-08 Spc Michael A Diraimondo 22 Simi Valley CA 571st Medical Company (Air Ambulance) Army Diraimondo was killed when his UH-60
Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US 2004-01-08 Spc Christopher A Golby 26 Johnstown PA 571st Medical
Company (Air Ambulance) Army Golby was killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk
helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US 2004-01-08 Sgt 1st Class Gregory B Hicks 35 Duff TN Company B, 1st Battalion, 9th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division Army Hicks was
killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq.
US 2004-01-08 Spc Nathaniel H Johnson 22 Augusta GA Company D
(Aviation), 82nd Support Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division Army Johnson was killed
when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US 2004-01-08 Chief Warrant Officer Philip A Johnson, Jr 31 AL 571st Medical Company (Air Ambulance) Army Johnson was killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US 2004-01-08 Chief Warrant Officer Ian D Manuel 23 FL 16th Signal Battalion Army Manuel was killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter
crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah, Iraq. US 2004-01-08 Sgt Jeffrey C Walker 33 Havre de Grace MD Company C,
782nd Main Support Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division Army Walker was killed
Jan. 8 in Fallujah, Iraq. Walker was onboard a UH-60 when it crashed while on a MEDEVAC mission. US 2004-01-08 Chief Warrant Officer Aaron A Weaver 32 FL C Troop, 1st Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division Army Weaver was killed when his UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed Jan. 8 near Fallujah,
Iraq. US 2004-01-07 Lance Cpl Andrew Jason Craw 21 Clackmannanshire 1st Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders English Army Craw died
following a tragic incident on a training range near Basrah. UK 2004-01-07 Pfc Jesse D Mizener 24 Auburn CA 542nd Maintenance
Company, 44th Corps Support Battalion, 593rd Corps Support Group Army Mizener
was killed Jan. 7 in Baghdad, Iraq. Mizener was killed when a mortar round hit
the Logistics Base. US 2004-01-05 Spc Luke P Frist 20 West Lafayette IN 209th
Quartermaster Company, U.S. Army Reserve Army Frist died of wounds on Jan. 5 at
Brooke Army Medical Center, Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Frist was part of a convoy
that was struck with an improvised explosive device in Baghdad, Iraq. US 2004-01-02 Spc Solomon C Bangayan 24 Jay VT 2nd Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division Army Bangayan was
killed on Jan. 2, 2004, in Baghdad, Iraq, when his convoy was ambushed by the
enemy who used an improvised explosive device (IED), small arms fire, and a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG). US 2004-01-02 Capt Kimberly N Hampton 27 Easly SC 1st Battalion, 82nd Aviation Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division Army Hampton was killed on
Jan. 2, 2004, in Fallujah, Iraq. Hampton, was the pilot on a Kiowa, OH-58, Observation Helicopter when it was shot down by enemy ground fire and
crashed. Hampton died as a result of her injuries. US 2004-01-02 Capt Eric T Paliwoda 28 TX 4th Engineer Battalion, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division (Mechanized) Army Paliwoda
was killed on Jan. 2 in Balad, Iraq. Paliwoda was in his command post when it
came under mortar attack. He died of injuries sustained in the attack. US 2004-01-02 Spc Marc S Seiden 26 Brigantine NJ 2nd Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division Army killed on Jan.
2, 2004, in Baghdad, Iraq, when their convoy was ambushed by the enemy who
used an improvised explosive device (IED), small arms fire, and a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG). US 2004-01-01 Sgt Dennis A Corral 33 Kearney NE 1st Engineer
Battalion, 1st Brigade, 1st Infantry Division Army Corral died on Jan. 1 in Baghdad,
Iraq. He was in a convoy going to the Baghdad International Airport when his
vehicle went out of control and rolled over. US 2004-01-01 Sgt Norman Patterson 28 Staffordshire Cheshire
Regiment Patterson died in a road traffic accident in Baghdad. UK 2004-01-01 Major James Stenner 30 Monmouthshire Welsh Guards Stenner died in a road traffic accident in Baghdad. UK 2003-12-30 Spc Justin C Pollard 21 Foothill Ranch CA 2nd Squadron,
3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment Army Pollard died on Dec. 30 in Baghdad, Iraq Pollard died as a result of injuries sustained in a non-combat related incident. US 2003-12-28 Captain Ernesto M Blanco 28 TX 1st Battalion, 504th Blanco was killed on Dec. 28, in Qaryat Ash Shababi, Iraq. Blanco was conducting a support mission when an improvised explosive device hit his vehicle. US 2003-12-28 Pvt Rey D Cuervo 24 Laguna Vista TX 1st Squadron, 2nd
Armored Cavalry Army Cuervo Texas, was killed on Dec. 28 in Baghdad, Iraq.
Cuervo was on a mounted patrol when an improvised explosive device hit his
vehicle. US 2003-12-28 Sgt Curt E Jordan Jr 25 Green Acres WA 14th Combat
Engineer Battalion (Corps) (Wheeled), 555th Combat Engineer Group Army Jordan
died on Dec. 28 near Bayji, Iraq. Jordan died of non-combat injuries. US 2003-12-28 Lt Nikolay Angelov Saruev 26 Krumovgrad Bulgarian Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Saruev died as a result of injuries sustained in a car bombing. Bulgaria 2003-12-27 Lt Col Amporrn Chulert Army Engineering Corps
Thailand Army Chulert was killed in a car bombing near Karbala. Thailand 2003-12-27 Senior Sgt Ivan Hristov Indzhov 36 Ustrem Bulgarian Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Indzhov was killed in a car bombing incident. Bulgaria 2003-12-27 Capt Georgi Hristov Kachorin 29 Razlog Bulgarian Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Kachorin was killed in a car bombing incident. Bulgaria 2003-12-27 Private Svilen Simeonov Kirov 25 Dobrich Bulgarian Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Kirov was killed in a car bombing
incident. Bulgaria 2003-12-27 Lt Col Mit Klaharn 402nd Engineering Battalion
Thailand Army Klaharn was killed in a car bomb incident near Karbala. Thailand 2003-12-27 Junior Sgt Anton Valentinov Petrov 26 Russe Bulgarian Peacekeeping Unit Bulgarian Army Petrov was killed in a car bombing incident. Bulgaria 2003-12-26 Spc Charles G Haight 23 Jacksonville AL 14th Engineer Battalion, 555th Engineer Group Army Haight was killed on Dec. 26,
2003, in Iraq. Haight was in a convoy vehicle which struck an improvised explosive device. US 2003-12-26 Spc Michael G Mihalakis 18 San Jose CA 270th Military
Police Company, 49th Military Police Battalion, 100th Troop Command, California
Comba Army Mihalakis died on Dec. 26, 2003, in Baghdad, Iraq. Mihalakis died
as a result of injuries sustained in a non-combat vehicle accident at the
Baghdad International Airport. US 2003-12-26 Staff Sgt Michael J Sutter 28 Tinley Park IL 745th
Ordnance Company, 79th Ordnance Battalion, Army National Guard Army Sutter was
killed Dec. 26 in Baqubah, Iraq. Sutter was attempting to render safe an improved explosive device when it detonated. US 2003-12-25 Staff Sgt Thomas W Christensen 42 Atlantic Mine MI 652nd Engineer Battalion, U.S. Army Reserve Army Christensen was killed on
Dec. 25 in Baquba, Iraq, when his living area came under mortar attack. US 2003-12-25 Staff Sgt Stephen C Hattamer 43 Gwinn MI 652nd Engineer Battalion, U.S. Army Reserve Army Hattamer was killed on Dec. 25 in
Baquba, Iraq, when his living area came under mortar attack. US 2003-12-24 Sgt Benjamin W Biskie 27 Vermilion OH 5th Engineer
Battalion, 1st Engineer Brigade Army Biskie was killed on Dec. 24, when his
vehicle struck an improvised explosive device on Highway One near Samarra, Iraq.
US 2003-12-24 Sgt Major Eric F Cooke 43 Scottsdale AZ 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division Army Cooke was killed on Dec. 24, 2003, in Baghdad,
Iraq. Cooke was in a convoy vehicle that struck an improvised explosive device.
US 2003-12-24 Capt Christopher F Soelzer 26 SD 5th Engineer
Battalion, 1st Engineer Brigade Army Soelzer was killed on Dec. 24, when his vehicle
struck an improvised explosive device on Highway One near Samarra, Iraq. US 2003-12-24 Major Christopher J Splinter 43 Platteville WI 5th
Engineer Battalion, 1st Engineer Brigade Army Splinter was killed on Dec. 24,
when his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device on Highway One near
Samarra, Iraq. US 2003-12-24 Sgt Michael E Yashinski 24 Monument CO 501st Forward
Support Company, 173rd Airborne Brigade Army Yashinski died on Dec. 24, 2003,
in Kirkuk, Iraq. Yashinski died of injuries sustained while running a communication wire. US 2003-12-22 Pfc Stuart W Moore 21 Livingston TX 2nd Battalion, 3rd
Field Artillery Regiment, 1st Armored Division Army Moore was killed on Dec.
22 in Baghdad, Iraq, when an improvised explosive device struck his convoy. US Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Created this page in 0.23 seconds

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:56:00 GMT, Steve White <steve@spam.me.never>
wrote:
In article <9a095db9.0402080402.530abda3@posting.google.com>, patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote: Apropos Iraq. After reading the post pb just put up one has to wonder if Saddam isn't Bush's new right hand man.Your PM Mr. Howard is willing to stand up to Saddam's scum, the kind ofpeople documented in this story on one of your own newspapers:http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/07/1075854110499.htmlStory below. By opposing Saddam's removal, you allied yourself with themen who did this. Think about it.

Steve - you seem to be buying into the same polarising of positions
and labelling as those who want everyone stamped as pro or
anti-adoption.

I am delighted Saddam was removed but IMO the end did not justify the
means. To oppose the war in Iraq does not make me an ally of Saddam
or his supporters.

Julia
steve=====Iraqi refugee braves death threatsBy Virginia WhettonFebruary 8, 2004The Sun-HeraldIraqi refugee Guzin Najim thought she'd be safe when she escaped toAustralia after her diplomat husband was murdered by Saddam Hussein'sbrutal secret police and she'd been forced to live, with her children,for three years under house arrest.But the terror has reached Sydney. Religious fanatics faithful to themurderous tyrant have delivered death threats to her home in the city'ssouth-western suburbs, forcing her once again to flee for her life.Now Ms Najim, 47, has moved to a secret location to hide from the menwho have ordered that her throat be cut for speaking out publiclyagainst Saddam's brutal regime."At first, I was very frightened," said Ms Najim at her new home. "Ithought, 'How can this happen in Sydney, where life is so peaceful andeveryone smiles?' But then I became angry, and I decided that thesefanatics will not succeed in intimidating me."I will not be silenced. I lived in fear for so long over there. Icannot let that happen again in Australia."The threats started after the release of the book The Promise, in whichauthor Sandra Lee told of Ms Najim's terrible ordeal at the hands of theIraqi secret police.Her husband Ra'ad was taken away from their home in Baghdad by two menand was dumped back, paralysed, fevered and barely able to speak a fewhours later. After four days of agony he died, at the age of 48. It wasthought he'd been fed rat poison, Saddam's favourite method ofassassination.Ms Najim was held with her two children under house arrest for threeyears, during which time she was beaten regularly and had her handbroken by her captors. Finally, she escaped to Jordan but, after deaththreats from those loyal to the Iraqi dictator, she and her childrenwere accepted as refugees by the United Nations and chose to come andlive in the relative sanctity of Australia.But when the book caught the country's attention and she was asked toappear on national TV and radio to talk about her ordeal, the cold chillof religious fanaticism suddenly arrived on her Sydney doorstep.She received two death threats over the intercom of her home, andanother written death threat was slid under her front door. Bankstownpolice are investigating the threats and studying the letter."They wrote that I am out of Islam and I must be killed," Ms Najim said."It said that I support Americans."It was such a shock that this happened in Australia. But then I becamevery depressed. I didn't eat for two days. I started to think that I hadbrought my children to safety to this country, and now I am ready todie. I felt tired of it all and wanted to sleep and escape from reality."But then I became very angry. Even if they are determined to kill me, Iwill not stop talking. I will never change my mind." In her new home with her son Mohammed, 23, and daughter Lina, 28,living nearby, Ms Najim is trying hard to rebuild her life.

In article <n3id20p7qff345r9qi6ld6ap6v0kcp90l8@4ax.com>,
Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

I am delighted Saddam was removed but IMO the end did not justify the means. To oppose the war in Iraq does not make me an ally of Saddam or his supporters.


Well then, how would you have dealt with the problem? I ask this
question to those who respond in the way you did above. I never seem to
get an answer, but there's a first time for everything.

Tell me what you would DO.




steve

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:50:12 GMT, Steve White <steve@spam.me.never>
wrote:
In article <n3id20p7qff345r9qi6ld6ap6v0kcp90l8@4ax.com>, Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote: I am delighted Saddam was removed but IMO the end did not justify the means. To oppose the war in Iraq does not make me an ally of Saddam or his supporters.Well then, how would you have dealt with the problem? I ask thisquestion to those who respond in the way you did above. I never seem toget an answer, but there's a first time for everything.Tell me what you would DO.steve

This is rehashing old stuff Steve. You know damn well I'm not going
to come up with some fabulous solution. If I had a solution to the
ills of the world I would be doing something with it other than
sitting on usenet sharing my wisdom with you.

The war on Iraq was supposedly based on the premise that Iraq posed an
immediate danger to the US and its allies because Saddam possessed
weapons of mass destruction. It was never suggested that our troops
should go over there because Saddam posed a danger to his own people.

Julia

Steve White wrote:
In article <n3id20p7qff345r9qi6ld6ap6v0kcp90l8@4ax.com>, Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote: I am delighted Saddam was removed but IMO the end did not justify the means. To oppose the war in Iraq does not make me an ally of Saddam or his supporters. Well then, how would you have dealt with the problem? I ask this question to those who respond in the way you did above. I never seem to get an answer, but there's a first time for everything. Tell me what you would DO.

Saddam was not our problem to solve, he posed no immanent or immediate
threat to the US. He was bestial and brutal his entire political career,
and we aided him, funded him, propped him up, undercut him, demonized him
and now have deposed him based on formulas of political calculus that
render the question of what we should have done with him in March 2003
irrelevant.

How can we adequately address questions of political morality when our own
government is so unmoored from the truth? We, that is our intelligence
apparatus, executive branch and significant members of the legislative
branch knew Saddam gassed the Kurds in 88, yet saved their outrage until
it served a propitious moment to exercise it. We allowed the Shias the
fantasy that we'd support their uprising in 91 and then withdrew because
we wanted to let Saddam kill off the Badr Brigade.because our fear of
Iranian style Islam trumped our hatred of Saddam.

Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over with the expecation
that there will be different results. We are so enammored with our
fantasies of Saddam that we were manipulated by this madman into believing
he possessed WMD. What should we do? Snap out of it, that's what.
Reportedly, the Shia, who have finally begun to establish themselves as
the dominant political Iraqi force, are polite and insistent, they end
every communication with representatives of US power with the question,
"and when are you leaving?"

The question ought not to be what should we have done with Saddam, since
he was a creature who survived because he could exploit the Cold War
alliances and rivalries, and then the anxieties over the rise of Islam,
and finally survived precariouly perpetuated as our Villain. The question
is what is our place now, now that we have explicitly exposed ourselves as
a country that will wage preemptive wars on whomever we please with
erroneous intelligence and no acknowledgement of responsibility to anyone,
not even our own citizens. At present we are the most powerful outlaw
nation in history. Perhaps this is inevitable, the mask slipping after the
Bay of Pigs, the Tonkin Gulf fraud, and the myriad other interventions
we've engineered under the cloak of legitmacy. But it does give pause that
our leadership doesn't care anymore if it's caught in blatent fraudulence.
Bush's insistenece that the invasion of Iraq was legitimate is ahistorical
and absurd. It's an argument designed to insulate him during this election
cycle, no further.

The ease by which we have been manipulated should raise the question, What
can we do? Because the world is watching, and will be happy to manipulate
us if that'swhat we want.

Ron


steve

Steve White wrote:
In article <9a095db9.0402080402.530abda3@posting.google.com>, patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote: Apropos Iraq. After reading the post pb just put up one has to wonder if Saddam isn't Bush's new right hand man. Your PM Mr. Howard is willing to stand up to Saddam's scum, the kind of people documented in this story on one of your own newspapers:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/07/1075854110499.html Story below. By opposing Saddam's removal, you allied yourself with the men who did this. Think about it.

Howard is a lick spittle political opportunist who's in human rights hot
water of his own for paying the bankrupt island of Nauru to house
Australia's Afghan refugees on the lunar landscape of their exhausted
bauxite mines. Howard is a man with no claim to a moral compass. By quoting
Rupert Murdoch's house organ propaganda repeatedly for the last couple of
years on Iraq, you're allying yourself with a man who folled over like a
love sick beagle ***** for the butchers of Teinanmen for the price of a
media network, and who promoted Hitler's forged diaries as if they were the
Grail. How many of Murdoch's stories in the Sun chain of tabloids
concerning Iraq have been shown to be unadulterated tissues of horse****?
Some people can't find spoons big enough to gobble it up though.

Ron

steve ===== Iraqi refugee braves death threats By Virginia Whetton February 8, 2004 The Sun-Herald Iraqi refugee Guzin Najim thought she'd be safe when she escaped to Australia after her diplomat husband was murdered by Saddam Hussein's brutal secret police and she'd been forced to live, with her children, for three years under house arrest. But the terror has reached Sydney. Religious fanatics faithful to the murderous tyrant have delivered death threats to her home in the city's south-western suburbs, forcing her once again to flee for her life. Now Ms Najim, 47, has moved to a secret location to hide from the men who have ordered that her throat be cut for speaking out publicly against Saddam's brutal regime. "At first, I was very frightened," said Ms Najim at her new home. "I thought, 'How can this happen in Sydney, where life is so peaceful and everyone smiles?' But then I became angry, and I decided that these fanatics will not succeed in intimidating me. "I will not be silenced. I lived in fear for so long over there. I cannot let that happen again in Australia." The threats started after the release of the book The Promise, in which author Sandra Lee told of Ms Najim's terrible ordeal at the hands of the Iraqi secret police. Her husband Ra'ad was taken away from their home in Baghdad by two men and was dumped back, paralysed, fevered and barely able to speak a few hours later. After four days of agony he died, at the age of 48. It was thought he'd been fed rat poison, Saddam's favourite method of assassination. Ms Najim was held with her two children under house arrest for three years, during which time she was beaten regularly and had her hand broken by her captors. Finally, she escaped to Jordan but, after death threats from those loyal to the Iraqi dictator, she and her children were accepted as refugees by the United Nations and chose to come and live in the relative sanctity of Australia. But when the book caught the country's attention and she was asked to appear on national TV and radio to talk about her ordeal, the cold chill of religious fanaticism suddenly arrived on her Sydney doorstep. She received two death threats over the intercom of her home, and another written death threat was slid under her front door. Bankstown police are investigating the threats and studying the letter. "They wrote that I am out of Islam and I must be killed," Ms Najim said. "It said that I support Americans. "It was such a shock that this happened in Australia. But then I became very depressed. I didn't eat for two days. I started to think that I had brought my children to safety to this country, and now I am ready to die. I felt tired of it all and wanted to sleep and escape from reality. "But then I became very angry. Even if they are determined to kill me, I will not stop talking. I will never change my mind." In her new home with her son Mohammed, 23, and daughter Lina, 28, living nearby, Ms Najim is trying hard to rebuild her life.

In article <40274041.6794A41F@earthlink.net>,
Ron Morgan <rhyzome1@earthlink.net> wrote:

Well then, how would you have dealt with the problem? I ask this question to those who respond in the way you did above. I never seem to get an answer, but there's a first time for everything. Tell me what you would DO. Saddam was not our problem to solve, he posed no immanent or immediate threat to the US. He was bestial and brutal his entire political career, and we aided him, funded him, propped him up, undercut him, demonized him and now have deposed him based on formulas of political calculus that render the question of what we should have done with him in March 2003 irrelevant.


You make several errors:

1) we did not prop Saddam up to a major degree. We sold him less than 1%
of the arms he bought (so says the UN), we gave him some political
support early in his war against Iran (later withdrawn), and we gave him
some agricultural credits. That's about it. We were the most consistent
in applying UN sanctions after the Gulf war.

2) The USSR/Russia, France, Germany and China propped him up. Between
them they sold Saddam about 90% of his weapons, set up tens of billions
dollars in sweetheart deals, and consistently worked to circumvent arms
control and sanction agreements.

3) But if you honestly believe that we DID prop him up, then wasn't he
EXACTLY our problem to solve? Aren't we allowed to atone for our sins?
Again, we didn't prop him up, but if you believe we did and you wish to
be moral, you then have to correct your mistake.

4) What would be the exact problem with demonizing a man who murdered a
million of his people, brutalized the rest, started two pointless wars,
and used poison gas against his own people? I'm just asking. Personally
I think a man like that ought to be demonized.

And finally -- my question to Julia (and to you), "what would you DO",
should be taken as being framed in February, 2003. Feel free to start
there and describe what the US should have done at that point. Be
specific.

How can we adequately address questions of political morality when our own government is so unmoored from the truth? We, that is our intelligence apparatus, executive branch and significant members of the legislative branch knew Saddam gassed the Kurds in 88, yet saved their outrage until it served a propitious moment to exercise it.


How many people in this country would have been willing to go to war in
1988 over Saddam gassing his people? I ask because the current war has
been wrenching to our country. Wouldn't you have raised EXACTLY the same
objections you posted above in 1988? I'd commend anyone who would have
gone to war at that point, but to do so you have to have the country
behind you.

As to being unmoored from the truth, the WMD issue is the one big one
the intel/political apparatus got wrong (apparently).

But the left was FAR more unmoored. Remember the predictions of the Left
on this war? Sure you do: hundreds of thousands of civilians dead, tens
of thousands of American casualties, 5 million refugees, Baghdad turned
into Stalingrad, Saddam using WMD, epidemics of cholera and typhus,
neighboring countries destabilized, etc.

GWB & Co. got one big item wrong. The Left got everything else wrong.
Clearly one side was unmoored from the truth.

We allowed the Shias the fantasy that we'd support their uprising in 91 and then withdrew because we wanted to let Saddam kill off the Badr Brigade.because our fear of Iranian style Islam trumped our hatred of Saddam.


That wasn't the only reason as you know.

The other big reason: NO OTHER POWER would go with us to Baghdad in
1991. The Brits, the French, the Arab allies, no one was willing to go
forward. The Egyptians and Syrians threatened to switch sides if we did.

Now George HW was a man of the Cold War, cautious fellow at heart -- no
way he was going to commit to helping the Shi'a if it meant a rupture
with the Euro allies. In retrospect, a big mistake.

We are so enammored with our fantasies of Saddam that we were manipulated by this madman into believing he possessed WMD.


Seems like everyone was manipulated, including (if you believe the
current theory) Saddam himself.

Oops, our bad. Guess we'll just have to be satisfied with removing a
fascist from power, and learn better for next time.

Should we talk about the Left's fantasy with Saddam, about how he
morphed from nasty brute to gallant anti-American hero right about the
time a Republican got elected to the White House?

What should we do? Snap out of it, that's what. Reportedly, the Shia, who have finally begun to establish themselves as the dominant political Iraqi force, are polite and insistent, they end every communication with representatives of US power with the question, "and when are you leaving?"


That's Sistani's line allright, and he's a clever fellow. There are
plenty of polls there (now that one can have a dissenting opinion and
actually LIVE; you should ponder that) that most of the Shi'a and Kurds
understand that we'll need to be there for a while. They aren't happy
(nor would you and I be in the same situation) but they're realistic.
Good enough for now, and I suspect in a couple years we'll have 1/2 or
less of our current forces there. In the meantime the Iraqis get a
government on July 1, thereabouts, and then write a constitution.

So it seems we're listening.

The question ought not to be what should we have done with Saddam, since he was a creature who survived because he could exploit the Cold War alliances and rivalries, and then the anxieties over the rise of Islam, and finally survived precariouly perpetuated as our Villain.


What we should do with Saddam is precisely the question. Ending the Cold
War should have (and now finally is) allowed us to ask the question,
"what do we do with the thugs and brutes who survived the Cold War?"
That's exactly the question to be asked, and it's unfortunate that the
Left, who railed against thugs and brutes during the Cold War, now feels
the need to preserve them.

The question is what is our place now, now that we have explicitly exposed ourselves as a country that will wage preemptive wars on whomever we please with erroneous intelligence and no acknowledgement of responsibility to anyone, not even our own citizens.


That's silly. GWB got the permission of Congress not once but twice.
It's a major issue in the election, and was so in the 2002 election.
That's the essence of responsibility in a democracy. What galls you is
that throughout there's been a clear majority of Americans that has
weighed your position, and that of GWB, and have gone with the latter.
No doubt Marcy will be bleating about how "stupid Americans are" real
soon now.

The Bush doctrine isn't waging war on who we please: it's waging war on
thugs who we have reason to believe are going to be a threat at some
point. There's a difference there.

At present we are the most powerful outlaw nation in history. Perhaps this is inevitable, the mask slipping after the Bay of Pigs, the Tonkin Gulf fraud, and the myriad other interventions we've engineered under the cloak of legitmacy. But it does give pause that our leadership doesn't care anymore if it's caught in blatent fraudulence. Bush's insistenece that the invasion of Iraq was legitimate is ahistorical and absurd. It's an argument designed to insulate him during this election cycle, no further.


Forgive me but that's just out of touch with reality. Do you really
believe that there's a legitimacy that only the UN can deliver?

The ease by which we have been manipulated should raise the question, What can we do? Because the world is watching, and will be happy to manipulate us if that'swhat we want.


Your complaint isn't that we were manipulated, it's that the majority of
Americans rejected your argument. That isn't the same thing.

Pleasure as always,




steve

In article <3upd20p0v05k72sg59f6cae0at3u5ea4sb@4ax.com>,
Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

This is rehashing old stuff Steve. You know damn well I'm not going to come up with some fabulous solution. If I had a solution to the ills of the world I would be doing something with it other than sitting on usenet sharing my wisdom with you.


That's an honest answer, and I appreciate it. So let's cut some slack to
the people who HAVE to ponder the ills of the world and come up with a
solution that -- clearly -- has at least one benefit: the liberation of
about 24 million people from a vicious tyrant. And the liberation of
about 25 million Afghans before that.

The war on Iraq was supposedly based on the premise that Iraq posed an immediate danger to the US and its allies because Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction. It was never suggested that our troops should go over there because Saddam posed a danger to his own people.


Forgive me, but that's incorrect: GWB clearly said we had to act BEFORE
Iraq posed an imminent danger, and he clearly said that one (of several)
reasons we were going to war was because of what Saddam was doing to his
people. Those two points were in his State of the Union address before
the war and in his address to the Congress in 2002.




steve

In article <4027555A.F24C4FE5@earthlink.net>,
Ron Morgan <rhyzome1@earthlink.net> wrote:

Howard is a lick spittle political opportunist who's in human rights hot water of his own for paying the bankrupt island of Nauru to house Australia's Afghan refugees on the lunar landscape of their exhausted bauxite mines. Howard is a man with no claim to a moral compass. By quoting Rupert Murdoch's house organ propaganda repeatedly for the last couple of years on Iraq, you're allying yourself with a man who folled over like a love sick beagle ***** for the butchers of Teinanmen for the price of a media network, and who promoted Hitler's forged diaries as if they were the Grail. How many of Murdoch's stories in the Sun chain of tabloids concerning Iraq have been shown to be unadulterated tissues of horse****? Some people can't find spoons big enough to gobble it up though.


Heavens, I don't often quote Murdoch's newspapers. This was one story
that illustrated a clear issue. Even if Murdoch's paper was the one that
reported it and not the gallant Independent or San Fran Chronicle.





steve

What I do not understand is why did Bush let the Bin Laden family
leave the US directly after 9/11..

They were not questioned and they were allowed to fly home when no
other flights were allowed..

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/interviews.html
Sept. 11/2001The attack occurs. The morning of the attack George Bush Sr. is meets with members of the Carlyle Group in Washington. Bin Laden's own brother is at the meeting. Members of the Bin Laden family are allowed to leave the U.S. without questioning two days later.

http://www.sicmuse.com/weblog/archives/000815.htm
more recent evidence the U.S. didn't want Bin Laden caught. The United States allowed members of Osama Bin Laden’s family to jet out of the U.S. in the immediate aftermath of September 11, even as American airspace was closed! Why did the U.S. allow Osama Bin Ladens family to leave when they could have used them for bargaining chips to capture Bin Laden? Please don't say it was because Bin Laden’s family has rights, because the U.S. arrested and jailed over 1000 people after 911. These people didn't get their rights. Could it be that Bush and Bin Laden are working together? The evidence points that way.One problem with simply holding his family hostage as bargaining chips is that Osama is estranged from the members of his family in America.



Jackie

>Subject: Why did the U.S. allow Osama Bin Ladens family to leaveFrom: Jackie forgetit@me.comDate: 2/9/2004 11:54 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <4p7f20lbt8kkveif3hblopnqlm84ieoet7@4ax.com>What I do not understand is why did Bush let the Bin Laden familyleave the US directly after 9/11..They were not questioned and they were allowed to fly home when noother flights were allowed..http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/interviews.htmlSept. 11/2001The attack occurs. The morning of the attack George Bush Sr. is meets withmembers of the Carlyle Group in Washington. Bin Laden's own brother is at themeeting. Members of the Bin Laden family are allowed to leave the U.S.without questioning two days later.http://www.sicmuse.com/weblog/archives/000815.htmmore recent evidence the U.S. didn't want Bin Laden caught. The UnitedStates allowed members of Osama Bin Laden’s family to jet out of the U.S. inthe immediate aftermath of September 11, even as American airspace wasclosed! Why did the U.S. allow Osama Bin Ladens family to leave when theycould have used them for bargaining chips to capture Bin Laden? Please don'tsay it was because Bin Laden’s family has rights, because the U.S. arrestedand jailed over 1000 people after 911. These people didn't get their rights.Could it be that Bush and Bin Laden are working together? The evidence pointsthat way.One problem with simply holding his family hostage as bargaining chips isthat Osama is estranged from the members of his family in America.Jackie

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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SOMEBODY STOPS ME WHEN IT GETS IN THE BILLIONS

In article <n3id20p7qff345r9qi6ld6ap6v0kcp90l8@4ax.com>,
Julia <jurol@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:56:00 GMT, Steve White <steve@spam.me.never>

Steve said:
Story below. By opposing Saddam's removal, you allied yourself with themen who did this. Think about it.Steve - you seem to be buying into the same polarising of positionsand labelling as those who want everyone stamped as pro oranti-adoption.I am delighted Saddam was removed but IMO the end did not justify themeans. To oppose the war in Iraq does not make me an ally of Saddamor his supporters.Julia

Amen, Julia.

The notion that if you oppose the war you are pro-brutality is absurd. It
is a clumsy attempt to argue by re-definition.

Linda

..
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Thank you , Ron. As usual, you said it much better than I could.

This war was sold to us as necessary because Saddam had WMD. The
Bushistas also managed to somehow convince a majority of the US population
that Saddam was intimately involved in 9/11. Neither premise was true.

O'Neill clearly indicates that invasion of Iraq was the administration's
goal even before Sept. 11. And now we have to deal with the "peace from
hell" in Iraq as well as legions of legitimately furious Muslims.


Linda

P.S. One of my wierd little hobbies is the study of extreme right wing
Catholicism on the Web. It's quite interesting to watch the shift over
the definition of the enemy. Some are still obsessed with Godless
atheistic Russian communism, despite historical realities. Others have
started to slidle over to the great Muslim menace.

In article <c08rk5$50q@marlowe.umd.edu>,
lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote:

This war was sold to us as necessary because Saddam had WMD. The Bushistas also managed to somehow convince a majority of the US population that Saddam was intimately involved in 9/11. Neither premise was true.


Should we therefore put Saddam back in charge?

By the way, interesting Bill Clinton statement recently. He was visiting
Portugal's prime minister and, in response to a question, said that
right up to the fall of Baghdad, he was "absolutely convinced" that
Saddam had WMD.

O'Neill clearly indicates that invasion of Iraq was the administration's goal even before Sept. 11.


Of course it was. Bush said so in the 2000 campaign.

So did Al Gore.

Please go back and check their comments during the debates, and on the
campaign trail. Both men said clearly that Saddam was a menace and he
had to be dealt with. Both expressed solidarity with the Iraqi people.

Neither one said then that we'd launch an invasion to liberate the Iraqi
people. But that was before 9/11.





steve

In article <c08r2d$4c0@marlowe.umd.edu>,
lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote:

The notion that if you oppose the war you are pro-brutality is absurd. It is a clumsy attempt to argue by re-definition.


To do nothing while letting evil move forward is to let evil win.

That's exactly the brickbat Helen, et al. were using to decry America's
betrayal of the Shi'a and Kurds in 1991. We encouraged them to revolt
and then did nothing. That made us wrong, terribly wrong, oh so wrong.

And we were.

But apparently that wrong meant that we were supposed to be paralyzed
this time around, so that the evil could continue to move forward. I
haven't figured that leap of logic out yet.




steve

"Steve White" <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in message
news:steve-FB5A8F.21221109022004@netnews.comcast.net... In article <c08rk5$50q@marlowe.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: This war was sold to us as necessary because Saddam had WMD. The Bushistas also managed to somehow convince a majority of the US population that Saddam was intimately involved in 9/11. Neither premise was true. Should we therefore put Saddam back in charge? By the way, interesting Bill Clinton statement recently. He was visiting Portugal's prime minister and, in response to a question, said that right up to the fall of Baghdad, he was "absolutely convinced" that Saddam had WMD.

Well what can you expect from somebody who set the stage for Bush?

Marley

"Steve White" <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in message
news:steve-FF81E6.21242609022004@netnews.comcast.net... In article <c08r2d$4c0@marlowe.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: The notion that if you oppose the war you are pro-brutality is absurd. It is a clumsy attempt to argue by re-definition. To do nothing while letting evil move forward is to let evil win.

Evil runs the world. That's exactly the brickbat Helen, et al. were using to decry America's betrayal of the Shi'a and Kurds in 1991. We encouraged them to revolt and then did nothing. That made us wrong, terribly wrong, oh so wrong. And we were. But apparently that wrong meant that we were supposed to be paralyzed this time around, so that the evil could continue to move forward. I haven't figured that leap of logic out yet.

Why don't we mind our own business? You really need to read Trotsky's work
on permanent revolution.

Marley steve

In article <lAYVb.7760$fV5.234235@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

To do nothing while letting evil move forward is to let evil win. Evil runs the world.


That doesn't mean we're supposed to knuckle under. Otherwise Bastard
Nation would have been stillborn.

But apparently that wrong meant that we were supposed to be paralyzed this time around, so that the evil could continue to move forward. I haven't figured that leap of logic out yet. Why don't we mind our own business? You really need to read Trotsky's work on permanent revolution.


I read Jefferson's instead :-)





steve

On 09 Feb 2004 20:30:35 GMT, chosenchildinc1@aol.com (Chosenchildinc1)
wrote:
Subject: Why did the U.S. allow Osama Bin Ladens family to leaveFrom: Jackie forgetit@me.comDate: 2/9/2004 11:54 AM Newfoundland Standard TimeMessage-id: <4p7f20lbt8kkveif3hblopnqlm84ieoet7@4ax.com>What I do not understand is why did Bush let the Bin Laden familyleave the US directly after 9/11..They were not questioned and they were allowed to fly home when noother flights were allowed..http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/interviews.htmlSept. 11/2001The attack occurs. The morning of the attack George Bush Sr. is meets withmembers of the Carlyle Group in Washington. Bin Laden's own brother is at themeeting. Members of the Bin Laden family are allowed to leave the U.S.without questioning two days later.http://www.sicmuse.com/weblog/archives/000815.htmmore recent evidence the U.S. didn't want Bin Laden caught. The UnitedStates allowed members of Osama Bin Laden’s family to jet out of the U.S. inthe immediate aftermath of September 11, even as American airspace wasclosed! Why did the U.S. allow Osama Bin Ladens family to leave when theycould have used them for bargaining chips to capture Bin Laden? Please don'tsay it was because Bin Laden’s family has rights, because the U.S. arrestedand jailed over 1000 people after 911. These people didn't get their rights.Could it be that Bush and Bin Laden are working together? The evidence pointsthat way.One problem with simply holding his family hostage as bargaining chips isthat Osama is estranged from the members of his family in America.Jackie$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$SOMEBODY STOPS ME WHEN IT GETS IN THE BILLIONS

I watched that show on CBC and they interviewed a woman (American
citizen) who could not get home from France..
Her son was in the towers.. Or he was missing..

She could not get home.. But the Bin Laden family *and others* flew
home first class.. No questions asked..


Jackie

"Steve White" <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in message
news:steve-C3D04B.08074510022004@netnews.comcast.net... In article <lAYVb.7760$fV5.234235@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote: To do nothing while letting evil move forward is to let evil win. Evil runs the world. That doesn't mean we're supposed to knuckle under. Otherwise Bastard Nation would have been stillborn. But apparently that wrong meant that we were supposed to be paralyzed this time around, so that the evil could continue to move forward. I haven't figured that leap of logic out yet. Why don't we mind our own business? You really need to read Trotsky's work on permanent revolution. I read Jefferson's instead :-) steve

And Jeffereson would be the first one opposing the Bushistas.

Marley

In article <4JeWb.4226$hR.125490@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

And Jeffereson would be the first one opposing the Bushistas.


But thank goodness we had Madison in the War of 1812!




steve

"Steve White" <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in message
news:steve-2650AE.23195710022004@netnews.comcast.net... In article <4JeWb.4226$hR.125490@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote: And Jeffereson would be the first one opposing the Bushistas. But thank goodness we had Madison in the War of 1812! steve

Madison a brilliant theorist and writer--and all about gadfly--was a lousy
president (though certainly not the worst). . It's one of the great
mysteries of history: why was Madison a lousy president. Nobody knows yet
who actually won the war. It may be still going on for all I know.

Malrey

In article <steve-FF81E6.21242609022004@netnews.comcast.net>,
Steve White <steve@spam.me.never> wrote:In article <c08r2d$4c0@marlowe.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: The notion that if you oppose the war you are pro-brutality is absurd. It is a clumsy attempt to argue by re-definition.To do nothing while letting evil move forward is to let evil win.


Well, when W. and company were trying to sell this war to the American
people Paul Wolfowitz said that human rights violations against his own
people were not sufficient to justify our participation in his ouster.

So... now that even W. has admitted there were no WMD, we are now the
noble saviors of the Iraqi people.

Instead, we have reaped a whilrlwind. Before the war retired General
Anthony Zinni, who had had a lot of experience in the Middle East said
"we are about to do something that will ignite a fuse in this region that
we will rue the day we ever started."

I totally agree with this assessment. Saddam was one evil SOB, but he was
not in any way a threat to the US. According to Paul O'Neill, Bush pushed
for an Iraq war before 9/11. And what has this done? Al-Q has moved into
Iraq in full force and we have the peace from hell. And god alone knows
what Al Q is planning for the US. Surely, the invasion of Iraq has been a
swell recuiting tool for Bin Laden.

Why, if we were so concerned about terrorism and the protection of the US,
didn't we invade Saudi Arabia, home of Bin Laden and home of most of the
terrorist bombers?

What have we gained? 530+ Americans dead, 8,000+ Iraqis, Iraq in turmoil.

And, if W. tries to pull out in June, there is going to be a massive civil
war, and we'll end up with another dictatorship.

This noble savior stuff does not fly, not at all.

Linda

In article <c0gs9h$d42@tracy.umd.edu>,
lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote:

So... now that even W. has admitted there were no WMD, we are now the noble saviors of the Iraqi people.


W also mentioned Saddam's brutality, violations of multiple UN
resolutions and violation of the ceasefire accord. Guess none of that
matters either, eh?

But to answer your question, yes, we are.

I totally agree with this assessment. Saddam was one evil SOB, but he was not in any way a threat to the US.

According to Paul O'Neill, Bush pushed for an Iraq war before 9/11.


So did Bill Clinton in 1998. So did Al Gore on the campaign trail in
2000. Don't make me prove it.

Why, if we were so concerned about terrorism and the protection of the US, didn't we invade Saudi Arabia, home of Bin Laden and home of most of the terrorist bombers?


Patience, grasshopper. One at a time.

What have we gained? 530+ Americans dead, 8,000+ Iraqis, Iraq in turmoil.


How many more dead Iraqis would we have if we hadn't thrown Saddam out?
Let's see, 1.25 million in 25 years, per month [ hang on, ... divide by
48, square root of 6, plus three toes, carry the 17, ... ] about 4300 a
month, give or take (and it was easy for Saddam to take). 4300 a month
every month since March -- why that's about 40,000 Iraqis saved from
mass graves and shredding machines!

Seems like humanity is already ahead.

And, if W. tries to pull out in June, there is going to be a massive civil war, and we'll end up with another dictatorship.


Ah, so it's evil, it's wrong, and we have to stay. Got it.




steve

"Steve White" <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in message
news:steve-A7B25B.21394212022004@netnews.comcast.net... In article <c0gs9h$d42@tracy.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: So... now that even W. has admitted there were no WMD, we are now the noble saviors of the Iraqi people. W also mentioned Saddam's brutality, violations of multiple UN resolutions and violation of the ceasefire accord. Guess none of that matters either, eh? But to answer your question, yes, we are. I totally agree with this assessment. Saddam was one evil SOB, but he
was not in any way a threat to the US. According to Paul O'Neill, Bush pushed for an Iraq war before 9/11. So did Bill Clinton in 1998. So did Al Gore on the campaign trail in 2000. Don't make me prove it. Why, if we were so concerned about terrorism and the protection of the US, didn't we invade Saudi Arabia, home of Bin Laden and home of most of the terrorist bombers? Patience, grasshopper. One at a time. What have we gained? 530+ Americans dead, 8,000+ Iraqis, Iraq in turmoil. How many more dead Iraqis would we have if we hadn't thrown Saddam out? Let's see, 1.25 million in 25 years, per month [ hang on, ... divide by 48, square root of 6, plus three toes, carry the 17, ... ] about 4300 a month, give or take (and it was easy for Saddam to take). 4300 a month every month since March -- why that's about 40,000 Iraqis saved from mass graves and shredding machines! Seems like humanity is already ahead. And, if W. tries to pull out in June, there is going to be a massive civil war, and we'll end up with another dictatorship. Ah, so it's evil, it's wrong, and we have to stay. Got it. steve

Steve, why are you wasiting time on this?

Marley

Steve White <steve@spam.me.never> wrote Ah, so it's evil, it's wrong, and we have to stay. Got it.

Can't spit. Can't swallow.

Rupa

In article <steve-A7B25B.21394212022004@netnews.comcast.net>,
Steve White <steve@spam.me.never> wrote:In article <c0gs9h$d42@tracy.umd.edu>, lfortney@dc.umd.edu (Linda Fortney) wrote: So... now that even W. has admitted there were no WMD, we are now the noble saviors of the Iraqi people.W also mentioned Saddam's brutality, violations of multiple UNresolutions and violation of the ceasefire accord. Guess none of thatmatters either, eh?


He sold the American people on this war as eliminating a threat to the US.
Even Wolfowitz said that Saddam's brutality to his own people was not
enough justification for a war.

I ask again, if Bush was so interested in preventing terrorism, why not
invade Saudi Arabia, the home of Bin Lauden and most of the 9/11
terrorists? He chose to invade Iraq and have 530+ Americans killed and
8,000+ Iraqis dead because of a personal vendetta against Saddam.

And, if the US wanted to start a noble crusade against evil dictators, why
choose Saddam. There are lots of other evil SOBs in power, e.g. Castro.
Why choose to invade a country where the end result will be immense
disruption of stability in the Middle East and more not less terrorism?

And, if you agree with the neo-cons that America's mission is to rid the
entire world of evil dictators, how pray tell are we going to be able to
afford to do so? You might have faith in a recovering economy, and Bush's
voodoo economics but I sure don't. And what would be the consequences if
we tried to do such an arrogant thing? It would isolate us from the rest
of the world. I totally agree with this assessment. Saddam was one evil SOB, but he was not in any way a threat to the US. According to Paul O'Neill, Bush pushed for an Iraq war before 9/11.So did Bill Clinton in 1998. So did Al Gore on the campaign trail in2000. Don't make me prove it.


I don't give a damn if Eisenhower wanted a war with Iraq. Bush said many
times that he had no intention of attacking Iraq before 9/11. Bush said
he attacked Iraq because of 9/11. Bush was planning on attacking Iraq
from the moment he took office. He LIED. Why, if we were so concerned about terrorism and the protection of the US, didn't we invade Saudi Arabia, home of Bin Laden and home of most of the terrorist bombers?Patience, grasshopper. One at a time.

See above. Iraq wasn't half the terrorist threat Saudi Arabia was. I'll
bet my child's education fund that an attack on Saudi Arabia will never
happen. The oil companies would never permit it.
And, if W. tries to pull out in June, there is going to be a massive civil war, and we'll end up with another dictatorship.Ah, so it's evil, it's wrong, and we have to stay. Got it.


It is evil, it is wrong and the whole notion of attacking Iraq was utterly
wrongheaded, if not criminally stupid in terms of our national security.



Linda

"Steve White" <steve@spam.me.never> wrote in message
news:steve-C72595.00335004022004@netnews.comcast.net... In article <9VGTb.10321$uM2.9158@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>, "Ron Morgan" <rhyzome1@earthlink.net> wrote: What I really want to know is why is Michael Moore supporting that tightly wound little martinet Wesley Clark? He recognizes a fellow weasel. Wesley wasn't too well liked by the troops.

I'm not sure how much interaction he had with enlisted men, he was more at
home at interntional conferences. The way the command structure is set up
now, the CINT commanders are our diplomatic corps in their theatres.

Ron
I think it would be interesting to see whose policies killed more civilians, Clark's bombing of Serbia or W's Shock and Awe in Iraq. There's an interesting comparison.

steve