A number of years ago, we purchased some land and built a house in a rural
area. We left some of the land "undeveloped" by design so as to afford
ourselves some privacy. The property lines are clearly delineated and posted.
-- Over the years, a number of new, young families have moved into the area.
Most of the time they only socialize with each other and have all they can do
to even respond to a wave from us. Yesterday, I came indoors and saw a message
on my answering machine stating that it was one of my neighbors advising me
that her children were playing on a frozen small pond on my property and that
if she didn't hear back from me she would assume it was o.k.! -- I was so
dumbfounded, I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing. Are there any legal
implications to my not responding to her call and thereby allowing her children
on my property. I don't really want them there, but I'm not looking for a
confrontation. Any suggestions?

Quoting littest@aol.com (Littest):
A number of years ago, we purchased some land and built a house in a ruralarea. We left some of the land "undeveloped" by design so as to affordourselves some privacy. The property lines are clearly delineated and posted.-- Over the years, a number of new, young families have moved into the area.Most of the time they only socialize with each other and have all they can doto even respond to a wave from us. Yesterday, I came indoors and saw a messageon my answering machine stating that it was one of my neighbors advising methat her children were playing on a frozen small pond on my property and thatif she didn't hear back from me she would assume it was o.k.! -- I was sodumbfounded, I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing. Are there any legalimplications to my not responding to her call and thereby allowing her childrenon my property.

Yeah, you could be held liable if one of the children hurt themselves
while trespassing on your property.
I don't really want them there, but I'm not looking for aconfrontation. Any suggestions?

Some people just have no respect for or concept of anyone else's
boundaries or property rights. Unfortunately, you're going to need to
return the call and tell her that it will not be okay in the future.
Be direct, but cordial; don't let her put you on the defensive or make
you feel like you need to offer justifications for your decision.
Make your point then politely say goodbye.

(My $0.02; I'm not an attorney)

"Elasticonoclast" <reply_in_group@spamme.not> wrote in message
news:nkdduvo7t20dmgfgbg0kck3c3fcjq9v797@4ax.com... Quoting littest@aol.com (Littest):A number of years ago, we purchased some land and built a house in a
ruralarea. We left some of the land "undeveloped" by design so as to affordourselves some privacy. The property lines are clearly delineated and
posted.-- Over the years, a number of new, young families have moved into the
area.Most of the time they only socialize with each other and have all they
can doto even respond to a wave from us. Yesterday, I came indoors and saw a
messageon my answering machine stating that it was one of my neighbors advising
methat her children were playing on a frozen small pond on my property and
thatif she didn't hear back from me she would assume it was o.k.! -- I was sodumbfounded, I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing. Are there any
legalimplications to my not responding to her call and thereby allowing her
childrenon my property. Yeah, you could be held liable if one of the children hurt themselves while trespassing on your property.I don't really want them there, but I'm not looking for aconfrontation. Any suggestions? Some people just have no respect for or concept of anyone else's boundaries or property rights. Unfortunately, you're going to need to return the call and tell her that it will not be okay in the future. Be direct, but cordial; don't let her put you on the defensive or make you feel like you need to offer justifications for your decision. Make your point then politely say goodbye. (My $0.02; I'm not an attorney)

I agree with this statement. But call or no call, you had better have a
good attorney, because children being the rebelious, inquisitive types they
are, it won't take long before they are back on your frozen pond.

All it would take is an early thaw and a step in the wrong spot to find
yourself on the receiving end of a wrongful death suit. It won't matter a
bit if you post signs around the entire perimeter, you'll end up mortgaging
your home, at the very least, to defend yourself and your beautiful
property.


Curtis A. Rowell, Sr.
Independant Associate
Prepaid Legal Services of Florida, Inc.
http://www.prepaidlegal.com/info/mrowell

"Littest" <littest@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031222033948.03883.00001604@mb-m07.aol.com... A number of years ago, we purchased some land and built a house in a rural area. We left some of the land "undeveloped" by design so as to afford ourselves some privacy. The property lines are clearly delineated and
posted. -- Over the years, a number of new, young families have moved into the
area. Most of the time they only socialize with each other and have all they can
do to even respond to a wave from us. Yesterday, I came indoors and saw a
message on my answering machine stating that it was one of my neighbors advising
me that her children were playing on a frozen small pond on my property and
that if she didn't hear back from me she would assume it was o.k.! -- I was so dumbfounded, I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing. Are there any
legal implications to my not responding to her call and thereby allowing her
children on my property. I don't really want them there, but I'm not looking for a confrontation. Any suggestions?

You have some level of potential liability regardless of whether the
children are permitees or trespassers. It may matter a little bit,
depending on state law, but probably not much, because the danger is known
and the presence of the trespassers is known.

There are several things you can do. First, buy good insurance. You have a
homeowners policy, of course. You can add an umbrella of $5 million or so
without much cost. I did that and I don't even have a pond. Second, you
can put up better fences, designed to actually keep the kids out. That's
costly and impractical. Third, you could tell the neighbor that you don't
want kids on the property. That won't stop the kids. Fourth, you can drain
the pond. Add a drainage ditch on the downhill side so the water doesn't
collect. If a person decided to buy some insurance and tell the neighbors
that you don't care who plays on the pond, and put up some "Danger - Keep
Out" signs before the first thaw in the spring, I don't think that would be
a dumb decision. That's probably the way I would act.

McGyver

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:54:39 GMT, Curtis Rowell <curtis_rowell@hotmail.com>
wrote: I agree with this statement. But call or no call, you had better have a good attorney, because children being the rebelious, inquisitive types they are, it won't take long before they are back on your frozen pond.

A better step would be to take some preventative measures to keep kids off of
your pond. You are currently only notice that kids are trespassing on your
property. So one of the factors for finding fault if some kid gets hurt is
already in place. Taking reasonable steps to safeguard the pond weighs
against a finding of fault for the landowner.

Perhaps advice from someone who does landscape would be just as valuable as
talking to an attorney.

Not legal advice.

Isaac

Quoting "McGyver" <Greyprof@msn.com>:
"Littest" <littest@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20031222033948.03883.00001604@mb-m07.aol.com... A number of years ago, we purchased some land and built a house in a rural area. We left some of the land "undeveloped" by design so as to afford ourselves some privacy. The property lines are clearly delineated and posted. -- Over the years, a number of new, young families have moved into the area. Most of the time they only socialize with each other and have all they can do to even respond to a wave from us. Yesterday, I came indoors and saw a message on my answering machine stating that it was one of my neighbors advising me that her children were playing on a frozen small pond on my property and that if she didn't hear back from me she would assume it was o.k.! -- I was so dumbfounded, I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing. Are there any legal implications to my not responding to her call and thereby allowing her children on my property. I don't really want them there, but I'm not looking for a confrontation. Any suggestions?You have some level of potential liability regardless of whether thechildren are permitees or trespassers. It may matter a little bit,depending on state law, but probably not much, because the danger is knownand the presence of the trespassers is known.

Yes, unfair as it is, she's basically been put on notice by the
neighbor that the kids have been on the property.
There are several things you can do. First, buy good insurance. You have ahomeowners policy, of course. You can add an umbrella of $5 million or sowithout much cost. I did that and I don't even have a pond.

Good advice, to make sure the homeowners coverage is adequate.
Second, youcan put up better fences, designed to actually keep the kids out. That'scostly and impractical. Third, you could tell the neighbor that you don'twant kids on the property. That won't stop the kids.

Likely it won't, even assuming the parent takes the call in stride and
tells the kids not to go over there. If the kids are inadequately
supervised and don't mind their parents (common these days), they'll
be back.
Fourth, you can drainthe pond. Add a drainage ditch on the downhill side so the water doesn'tcollect. If a person decided to buy some insurance and tell the neighborsthat you don't care who plays on the pond, and put up some "Danger - KeepOut" signs before the first thaw in the spring, I don't think that would bea dumb decision. That's probably the way I would act.

Personally, I wouldn't allow the kids to play on the pond at all.
It's inviting trouble. Also, OP indicated desire for privacy "left
land undeveloped by design", so I'd guess this isn't an acceptable
solution for her.

One caveat when it comes to posting warning signs is it's basically an
admission that there's known danger that hasn't been guarded against.
I'm not saying that OP shouldn't post such signs under any
circumstances, just to do their diligence and read up on this a bit
more.

Further suggestions:

-Call the neighbor putting her on notice. Record call if it's legal
in your jurisdiction to record conversations if one party is privy (in
this case you). Most answering machines can be used for this, consult
owners manual for instructions.

-Be polite and watch what you say to your neighbor at all times.
Don't escalate the situation by being accusatory or argumentative
regardless of what behaviour the neighbor chooses to engage in. If
neighbor becomes abusive or attempts to escalate the situation by
defying your requests, then you should consult an attorney at that
point for advice. Hopefully it won't come to that.

-Make sure homeowners coverage is adequate.

-Keep records, recordings, notes of every step taken with dates,
times, etc.

-Google "attractive nuisance" -and- "attractive nuisance" "your state
or country here", to become more familiar with your rights and
responsibilities. Yes, use the quotes for exact term search.

-Consider putting up a fence if you can afford it. Consult local
ordinances as to understand requirements and restrictions. Chain link
fences are quite affordable, especially if you do it yourself.

(Above not to be relied on as legal advice, for discussion purposes
only.)

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:02:42 -0600, Elasticonoclast Personally, I wouldn't allow the kids to play on the pond at all. It's inviting trouble. Also, OP indicated desire for privacy "left land undeveloped by design", so I'd guess this isn't an acceptable solution for her. One caveat when it comes to posting warning signs is it's basically an admission that there's known danger that hasn't been guarded against. I'm not saying that OP shouldn't post such signs under any circumstances, just to do their diligence and read up on this a bit more.

There is some variation among jurisdictions over this stuff, but the
modern rule with attractive nuisance situations (and I don't think
they are called that anymore) is that if you know kids are present and
if the danger is one that kids won't understand, then you have an
obligation to take reasonable steps to minimize the danger. I vaguely
remember that kids are supposed to appreciate the danger associated with
bodies of water, but perhaps they aren't supposed to appreciate the
dangers from thin ice. I also recall that the cases they used to
teach us this area of torts were pretty gruesome.
-Be polite and watch what you say to your neighbor at all times. Don't escalate the situation by being accusatory or argumentative regardless of what behaviour the neighbor chooses to engage in. If neighbor becomes abusive or attempts to escalate the situation by defying your requests, then you should consult an attorney at that point for advice. Hopefully it won't come to that.

If you seem to be concerned for the children only the most unreasonable
parent would complain. Don't lose sight that the object is to prevent
kids from getting hurt or worse.
-Consider putting up a fence if you can afford it. Consult local ordinances as to understand requirements and restrictions. Chain link fences are quite affordable, especially if you do it yourself.

I don't know if a fence would help, but maybe there is some local
guidance about what you ought to use.

(Above not to be relied on as legal advice, for discussion purposes only.)

Me too.

Isaac

"Isaac" <isaac@latveria.castledoom.org> wrote in message
news:slrnbuebgr.hj.isaac@latveria.castledoom.org.. . On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:54:39 GMT, Curtis Rowell
<curtis_rowell@hotmail.com> wrote: I agree with this statement. But call or no call, you had better have a good attorney, because children being the rebelious, inquisitive types
they are, it won't take long before they are back on your frozen pond. A better step would be to take some preventative measures to keep kids off
of your pond. You are currently only notice that kids are trespassing on
your property. So one of the factors for finding fault if some kid gets hurt
is already in place. Taking reasonable steps to safeguard the pond weighs against a finding of fault for the landowner. Perhaps advice from someone who does landscape would be just as valuable
as talking to an attorney. Not legal advice. Isaac

I disagree. Short of building Stalagg 16 on his property, no fence of any
kind is likely to keep a determine youth from getting to what he/she wants.
You severely underestimate our youth if you thing this can be done.

Beside, if a lady can get a cup of coffee (normally sold hot), spill it and
then sue Mc Donalds for selling her hot coffee and not warning her it was
hot and could burn her, then no one is safe from legal suits.

In us.legal, Curtis Rowell <curtis_rowell@hotmail.com> wrote:
I disagree. Short of building Stalagg 16 on his property, no fence of any kind is likely to keep a determine youth from getting to what he/she wants. You severely underestimate our youth if you thing this can be done.
Beside, if a lady can get a cup of coffee (normally sold hot), spill it and then sue Mc Donalds for selling her hot coffee and not warning her it was hot and could burn her, then no one is safe from legal suits.

You seem to relish displays of abject ignorance.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

<EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
news:bsc9ik$mg2$2@reader2.panix.com... In us.legal, Curtis Rowell <curtis_rowell@hotmail.com> wrote: I disagree. Short of building Stalagg 16 on his property, no fence of
any kind is likely to keep a determine youth from getting to what he/she
wants. You severely underestimate our youth if you thing this can be done. Beside, if a lady can get a cup of coffee (normally sold hot), spill it
and then sue Mc Donalds for selling her hot coffee and not warning her it
was hot and could burn her, then no one is safe from legal suits. You seem to relish displays of abject ignorance. -- ...I'm an air-conditioned gypsy... - The Who

Oh! Oooo! I've been wounded by a child with a pop-gun. If you had any
intelligence, you might actually be dangerous.

If you think my analogies are so far off the mark, why don't you make a
valid argument against them. As it is, you comment is rather inane.

In us.legal, Curtis Rowell <curtis_rowell@hotmail.com> wrote:
Beside, if a lady can get a cup of coffee (normally sold hot), spill it and then sue Mc Donalds for selling her hot coffee and not warning her it was hot and could burn her, then no one is safe from legal suits. You seem to relish displays of abject ignorance.
If you think my analogies are so far off the mark, why don't you make a valid argument against them. As it is, you comment is rather inane.

See http://www.centerjd.org/free/mythbusters-free/MB_mcdonalds.htm to get
started. After that, try googling on "mcdonalds coffee" for more.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

<EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
news:bslh4j$cjq$2@reader2.panix.com... In us.legal, Curtis Rowell <curtis_rowell@hotmail.com> wrote: > Beside, if a lady can get a cup of coffee (normally sold hot), spill
it and > then sue Mc Donalds for selling her hot coffee and not warning her
it was > hot and could burn her, then no one is safe from legal suits. You seem to relish displays of abject ignorance. If you think my analogies are so far off the mark, why don't you make a valid argument against them. As it is, you comment is rather inane. See http://www.centerjd.org/free/mythbusters-free/MB_mcdonalds.htm to get started. After that, try googling on "mcdonalds coffee" for more. -- ...I'm an air-conditioned gypsy... - The Who

Thank you for pointing out the fact that this lady did indeed sue McDonalds
and won a frivolous lawsuit. THIS was the point of my argument. NOT that
the damages were reduced by the court, but rather that people will sue over
the most rediculous things and often times, they win. Even if you post
warning signs all around every approach point to this individual's pond,
that still doesn't protect you from the parents of some stupid kid who
thinks the signs don't apply to him/her.

Nice try, but you fall way short of the mark.