I am considering a Chapter7 and am wondering about recent balance
transfers. I have an attourney and will be asking about this issue
but am looking for any additional advice or experience from others.

I have recently (less than 60 days) used a few of these "Balance
Transfer Checks" from one credit card to pay down balances on other
cards (the other cards being mainly a Bon/Macy's for a $2400 couch and
my AMEX that I use for everyday purchases, but now money is tight to
pay off the AMEX every month like I have for several years). Never
were any of these checks made out to "Cash" or my name, or deposited
in my checking, etc. They were always made out to the credit card
company and sent as a reqular check along with that months bill.

Now, the "checks" were with a promotional teaser rate and even at the
full rate, beat the longer term rates of the cards being paid down.
To me this is a way to save money when servicing a debt load, which I
had every intention (and if I can find a job) would not be any problem
paying down.

So, unable to find work, and when I do, at much reduced income level,
will not be able to service debt any longer I an thinking hard about
chapter7, but have a few months to decide, or find a job. I've read
many responses about money transfers and cash advances, but not about
using these checks to directly pay other creditors.

Would this simply come down to a possible preferential payment and
since it's all credit between creditors, not cash to me, that there
wouldn't be a problem?

I have spoken to an attourney and will again, just looking for advice
and making a google entry for others to search for.

Thanks.

I'm not an attorney, but having gone through a CH. 7 myself, I will
offer the following as "experience advice." Don't write any more of
these "checks", unless you are writing it for cash. You sound as if you
have alredy made up your mind to file. Nothing wrong with that. Now
that you know what you are going to do, just wait. It's that simple.
You need to put some time between your last prefential payment/cash
advance in order to keep the trustee off your back. Deal with the calls
from creditors anyway you choose, i,e. don't take their calls, tell them
they have the wrong number, etc. If you get a letter from a collection
agency that has called taken over the debt, send them a letter that
states they cannot contact you unless to notify you of a lawsuit. Do a
search for posts by Brett Weiss and you will find the exact wording.

If you get served with a lawsuit, or at least 180 days has passed, then
file your CH 7. You won't have to list the preferential payments to
creditors, nor, though he may, will the trustee ask about balance
transfers or cash advances beyond 6 months. At least in the three 341
meetings I have attended, the trustees did not ask about BTs beyond 6
months. As for writing one of those checks for "cash," if you do, make
sure you put the time between writing the check and filing. Take the
cash that you get, buy one of those home safes, and stick it in there.
Don't do anything with it until 180 days after your discharge of filing.
Kind of "know that it is there, but it's not." That way when you are
out of the grasp of the trustee, you can slowly put the money into your
savings and have a fresh start.

Many people are going to say that I am telling you to commit fraud.
Maybe so, but all I am trying to do is help you give the answers to the
turstee that he wants to hear so that your BK will go well. Again, I am
not an attorney. You could go to jail if you slip up with the
information I am giving you. If you do it right, you can have a nice
post-bankruptcy stash to start off with.

Joe wrote: I am considering a Chapter7 and am wondering about recent balance transfers. I have an attourney and will be asking about this issue but am looking for any additional advice or experience from others. I have recently (less than 60 days) used a few of these "Balance Transfer Checks" from one credit card to pay down balances on other cards (the other cards being mainly a Bon/Macy's for a $2400 couch and my AMEX that I use for everyday purchases, but now money is tight to pay off the AMEX every month like I have for several years). Never were any of these checks made out to "Cash" or my name, or deposited in my checking, etc. They were always made out to the credit card company and sent as a reqular check along with that months bill. Now, the "checks" were with a promotional teaser rate and even at the full rate, beat the longer term rates of the cards being paid down. To me this is a way to save money when servicing a debt load, which I had every intention (and if I can find a job) would not be any problem paying down. So, unable to find work, and when I do, at much reduced income level, will not be able to service debt any longer I an thinking hard about chapter7, but have a few months to decide, or find a job. I've read many responses about money transfers and cash advances, but not about using these checks to directly pay other creditors. Would this simply come down to a possible preferential payment and since it's all credit between creditors, not cash to me, that there wouldn't be a problem? I have spoken to an attourney and will again, just looking for advice and making a google entry for others to search for. Thanks.

It sounds like you are saying, in your experience, that as far as the
trustee is concerned, convience checks made out to other creditors are
viewed the same as making one out to yourself for cash, or at the very
least they are preferential payments. It seems unfair from the honest
debtor's viewpoint. Someone that is using credit to pay down other
creditors, just simple smart debt managemnent techniques. But, the
preferential payments make sense (that's exactly what they are), still
it seems like they should allow an exception, or view them with less
importance, if the transfer's sole purpose was to get a better rate.
Still, all creditors must be treated equally....

Of course the bottom line is just to stop using credit for any purpose
way before you file. Even if this requires you to start getting late
in your payments, more common case I guess. I'm current on
everything, spotless credit for 10+ years. If I do find work I can
pay off the debt no problem. If I stop making the minimum payments
now while trying to find work, the rates are going to go up big time
for being late more than 60 days, then wham! a great job comes through
and I'm stuck paying way more interest than I am now.

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:41:59 GMT, Bob <bob@here.com> wrote:
I'm not an attorney, but having gone through a CH. 7 myself, I willoffer the following as "experience advice." Don't write any more ofthese "checks", unless you are writing it for cash. You sound as if you have alredy made up your mind to file. Nothing wrong with that. Nowthat you know what you are going to do, just wait. It's that simple.You need to put some time between your last prefential payment/cashadvance in order to keep the trustee off your back. Deal with the callsfrom creditors anyway you choose, i,e. don't take their calls, tell themthey have the wrong number, etc. If you get a letter from a collectionagency that has called taken over the debt, send them a letter thatstates they cannot contact you unless to notify you of a lawsuit. Do asearch for posts by Brett Weiss and you will find the exact wording.If you get served with a lawsuit, or at least 180 days has passed, thenfile your CH 7. You won't have to list the preferential payments tocreditors, nor, though he may, will the trustee ask about balancetransfers or cash advances beyond 6 months. At least in the three 341meetings I have attended, the trustees did not ask about BTs beyond 6months. As for writing one of those checks for "cash," if you do, makesure you put the time between writing the check and filing. Take thecash that you get, buy one of those home safes, and stick it in there.Don't do anything with it until 180 days after your discharge of filing. Kind of "know that it is there, but it's not." That way when you areout of the grasp of the trustee, you can slowly put the money into yoursavings and have a fresh start.Many people are going to say that I am telling you to commit fraud.Maybe so, but all I am trying to do is help you give the answers to theturstee that he wants to hear so that your BK will go well. Again, I amnot an attorney. You could go to jail if you slip up with theinformation I am giving you. If you do it right, you can have a nicepost-bankruptcy stash to start off with.Joe wrote: I am considering a Chapter7 and am wondering about recent balance transfers. I have an attourney and will be asking about this issue but am looking for any additional advice or experience from others. I have recently (less than 60 days) used a few of these "Balance Transfer Checks" from one credit card to pay down balances on other cards (the other cards being mainly a Bon/Macy's for a $2400 couch and my AMEX that I use for everyday purchases, but now money is tight to pay off the AMEX every month like I have for several years). Never were any of these checks made out to "Cash" or my name, or deposited in my checking, etc. They were always made out to the credit card company and sent as a reqular check along with that months bill. Now, the "checks" were with a promotional teaser rate and even at the full rate, beat the longer term rates of the cards being paid down. To me this is a way to save money when servicing a debt load, which I had every intention (and if I can find a job) would not be any problem paying down. So, unable to find work, and when I do, at much reduced income level, will not be able to service debt any longer I an thinking hard about chapter7, but have a few months to decide, or find a job. I've read many responses about money transfers and cash advances, but not about using these checks to directly pay other creditors. Would this simply come down to a possible preferential payment and since it's all credit between creditors, not cash to me, that there wouldn't be a problem? I have spoken to an attourney and will again, just looking for advice and making a google entry for others to search for. Thanks.

Bob <bob@here.com> wrote in message news:<ruzIb.93850$Dt6.2626948@twister.tampabay.rr.com>... months. As for writing one of those checks for "cash," if you do, make sure you put the time between writing the check and filing. Take the cash that you get, buy one of those home safes, and stick it in there. Don't do anything with it until 180 days after your discharge of filing. Kind of "know that it is there, but it's not." That way when you are out of the grasp of the trustee, you can slowly put the money into your savings and have a fresh start.

This is fraudulent. And you could be caught. The advances against
your credit card accounts will show up on your credit card records and
(if you depoist the funds in your bank account) the deposits to--- and
subsequent cash withdrawals from--- your bank account will show up on
your bank records. A fundamental law of accounting states that every
debits has a corresponding credit and in this casse the trustee is
likely to notice that the credit is missing :-)

horrigan@aol.com (Timothy Horrigan) wrote in message This is fraudulent. And you could be caught. The advances against your credit card accounts will show up on your credit card records and (if you depoist the funds in your bank account) the deposits to--- and subsequent cash withdrawals from--- your bank account will show up on your bank records. A fundamental law of accounting states that every debits has a corresponding credit and in this casse the trustee is likely to notice that the credit is missing :-)


My situation is similar. I expected $40,000 in back wages, and the
company which owed me that pay went out of business before I
collected. It is essentially beyond pursuit.

In the interim, fully expecting my back pay, I took out $35,000 of
cash advances to live on, and charged what the advances didn't cover.
The cash advances were taken from the credit cards from between 12 and
thirteen months before I decided to declare bankruptcy, and my last
charge was about three months ago. I have some cash on hand, but it
will pretty much all go to the lawyer. My only asset is a 1997
Nissan. The exemptions in this state will probably protect my car,
unless the new bankrupcy laws affect that. I suppose the $40,000 owed
me is an 'asset' too, and I'd be glad to turn it over, even though
it's uncollectable.

Am I likely to be accused of fraud? I'll talk to a lawyer within a
month, but of course I'm curious now. A chapter 13 wouldn't make
sense because I now live with my girlfriend and I have no income.
She's a trust-fund baby and doesn't care about this stuff. Since I
have no incentive for the foreseeable future to obtain any income,
could I somehow be forced into a 13 anyway?

It is unlikely that you will have any problems, given the unexpected folding
of the business that owed you the money. Discuss the issue with your
attorney for more details.

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't
meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want
legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who
can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************


<peener@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:7f59e125.0401020853.a270cea@posting.google.co m... horrigan@aol.com (Timothy Horrigan) wrote in message This is fraudulent. And you could be caught. The advances against your credit card accounts will show up on your credit card records and (if you depoist the funds in your bank account) the deposits to--- and subsequent cash withdrawals from--- your bank account will show up on your bank records. A fundamental law of accounting states that every debits has a corresponding credit and in this casse the trustee is likely to notice that the credit is missing :-) My situation is similar. I expected $40,000 in back wages, and the company which owed me that pay went out of business before I collected. It is essentially beyond pursuit. In the interim, fully expecting my back pay, I took out $35,000 of cash advances to live on, and charged what the advances didn't cover. The cash advances were taken from the credit cards from between 12 and thirteen months before I decided to declare bankruptcy, and my last charge was about three months ago. I have some cash on hand, but it will pretty much all go to the lawyer. My only asset is a 1997 Nissan. The exemptions in this state will probably protect my car, unless the new bankrupcy laws affect that. I suppose the $40,000 owed me is an 'asset' too, and I'd be glad to turn it over, even though it's uncollectable. Am I likely to be accused of fraud? I'll talk to a lawyer within a month, but of course I'm curious now. A chapter 13 wouldn't make sense because I now live with my girlfriend and I have no income. She's a trust-fund baby and doesn't care about this stuff. Since I have no incentive for the foreseeable future to obtain any income, could I somehow be forced into a 13 anyway?

These checks are very tempting and dangerous for the financially
marginal. They make it easy to "rob Peter to pay Paul" in an attempt
to delay the inevitable.

They also make it easy to put large purchases on cards that you might
not be able to do otherwise, such as car down payments, etc.

I can also see their use as being a good excuse for a creditor to
contest a BK.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame, but I think it's all...

Richard's fault!

Visit the Sounds of the cul-de-sac at www.richardsfault.com

Am I likely to be accused of fraud? I'll talk to a lawyer within amonth, but of course I'm curious now. A chapter 13 wouldn't makesense because I now live with my girlfriend and I have no income.She's a trust-fund baby and doesn't care about this stuff. Since Ihave no incentive for the foreseeable future to obtain any income,could I somehow be forced into a 13 anyway?

Assuming you have not yet filed, I would think that the most moral
thing to do would be to get help from your girlfriend, since this sum
is probably pocket change to her. Legally, there is obviously no
requirement to do so.

Must to be nice to have a trust fund to count on!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame, but I think it's all...

Richard's fault!

Visit the Sounds of the cul-de-sac at www.richardsfault.com

Timothy Horrigan wrote:
Bob <bob@here.com> wrote in message news:<ruzIb.93850$Dt6.2626948@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...months. As for writing one of those checks for "cash," if you do, makesure you put the time between writing the check and filing. Take thecash that you get, buy one of those home safes, and stick it in there.Don't do anything with it until 180 days after your discharge of filing. Kind of "know that it is there, but it's not." That way when you areout of the grasp of the trustee, you can slowly put the money into yoursavings and have a fresh start. This is fraudulent. And you could be caught. The advances against your credit card accounts will show up on your credit card records and (if you depoist the funds in your bank account) the deposits to--- and subsequent cash withdrawals from--- your bank account will show up on your bank records. A fundamental law of accounting states that every debits has a corresponding credit and in this casse the trustee is likely to notice that the credit is missing :-)

Obviously, you can't make a deposit of $1000 one day, and take it out
the next. That is too easy. BK filing is all about timing. If you
make that $1000 deposit, slowly take it out. $150 here, $125 there,
over the course of a few weeks, then file. I'm sure you had expenses
during that time.....that is what those withdrawals are used for.