Hi. This may be a stupid question but I just want to be sure of
something....

I am looking through the form given to me by the folks at We The People (I
am considering Chapter 7 and attorneys fees are out of my reach). In it,
there's a question about property owned by others but which the debtor
controls. I have a 1996 Ford Thunderbird with 149,000 miles on it--that
alone would seriously reduce the value of the car. It was purchased by my
father (to get a better interest rate) but I've made all the payments until
recently. Could it possibly be seized and sold off? I don't see how
(especially since the payoff on the loan exceeds the value of the vehicle)
but why would they ask otherwise? Assistance is greatly appreciated...

~t

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:11:54 GMT, DALLAS STARS!!! <bako-condorsNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote:
: am considering Chapter 7 and attorneys fees are out of my reach). In it,
: there's a question about property owned by others but which the debtor
: controls. I have a 1996 Ford Thunderbird with 149,000 miles on it--that
: alone would seriously reduce the value of the car. It was purchased by my
: father (to get a better interest rate) but I've made all the payments until
: recently. Could it possibly be seized and sold off?

Arrrghh it's like my mind was read remotely, I'm headed to a hearing
in about an hour on this same factual situation in a denial of
discharge action, and have at least 3 more open files where borrowed
belongings have come up to cause grief for all involved. (Never
did I realize how efficient that mindreading technique was...)

: I don't see how
: (especially since the payoff on the loan exceeds the value of the vehicle)
: but why would they ask otherwise?

Think about it from your creditor's standpoint. Why aren't they
entitled to know about whatever interest you have in this car? After
all, you get to keep using the thing but they're being put in a
position where they have to eat crow.

: Assistance is greatly appreciated...

ISTM your need for counsel clear. A forms publishing outfit just
isn't able to advise you properly.

If you are the owner of the car, and it isn't exempted, it can be sold.

Bankruptcy is not a DIY project. I've taken over a number of cases where a
debtor prepared and filed the various bankruptcy documents without the help
of an attorney. Apart from the fact that the schedules generally have to be
completely redone (the exemptions are usually wrong, debts are not listed,
assets are not listed or are listed or valued incorrectly, the Statement of
Financial Affairs is incorrect, and the budget is generally wrong), a number
of these people lost their homes as a result of not being advised about what
was required, how the process worked, how to value assets, how to deal with
various types of debts, etc.--something an attorney is required to do.

Others ran into severe problems at the Meeting of Creditors, where they have
no one to turn to for preparation or advice, Generally, pro se debtors don't
know what the Trustee is looking for, or how to properly deal with the
Trustee's questions and concerns. One ended up being charged with bankruptcy
fraud--all because she didn't understand the effects of what the information
put in their schedules meant.

Bankruptcy is a very tricky area of the law (even to attorneys who don't
regularly practice it). Interestingly enough for a federal system, it is
very state and locality specific. What will work in California, for example,
probably won't fly here in Maryland.

Do yourself a big favor--see a lawyer.

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the
facts and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************


"DALLAS STARS!!!" <bako-condorsNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:K7YAb.5462$rP6.3608@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net... Hi. This may be a stupid question but I just want to be sure of something.... I am looking through the form given to me by the folks at We The People (I am considering Chapter 7 and attorneys fees are out of my reach). In it, there's a question about property owned by others but which the debtor controls. I have a 1996 Ford Thunderbird with 149,000 miles on it--that alone would seriously reduce the value of the car. It was purchased by my father (to get a better interest rate) but I've made all the payments
until recently. Could it possibly be seized and sold off? I don't see how (especially since the payoff on the loan exceeds the value of the vehicle) but why would they ask otherwise? Assistance is greatly appreciated... ~t

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:37:06 -0500, "Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com>
wrote:

You're a pretty sharp guy. You veil you're otherwise obvious
solicitations by answering all these questions with the same thing in
mind, herding people towards further reliance on your profession.
If you are the owner of the car, and it isn't exempted, it can be sold.Bankruptcy is not a DIY project. I've taken over a number of cases where adebtor prepared and filed the various bankruptcy documents without the helpof an attorney. Apart from the fact that the schedules generally have to becompletely redone (the exemptions are usually wrong, debts are not listed,assets are not listed or are listed or valued incorrectly, the Statement ofFinancial Affairs is incorrect, and the budget is generally wrong), a numberof these people lost their homes as a result of not being advised about whatwas required, how the process worked, how to value assets, how to deal withvarious types of debts, etc.--something an attorney is required to do.Others ran into severe problems at the Meeting of Creditors, where they haveno one to turn to for preparation or advice, Generally, pro se debtors don'tknow what the Trustee is looking for, or how to properly deal with theTrustee's questions and concerns. One ended up being charged with bankruptcyfraud--all because she didn't understand the effects of what the informationput in their schedules meant.Bankruptcy is a very tricky area of the law (even to attorneys who don'tregularly practice it). Interestingly enough for a federal system, it isvery state and locality specific. What will work in California, for example,probably won't fly here in Maryland.Do yourself a big favor--see a lawyer.

"DALLAS STARS!!!" wrote in message:
am considering Chapter 7 and attorneys fees are out of my reach). In it, there's a question about property owned by others but which the debtor controls. I have a 1996 Ford Thunderbird with 149,000 miles on it--that alone would seriously reduce the value of the car. It was purchased by my father (to get a better interest rate) but I've made all the payments
until recently. Could it possibly be seized and sold off? I don't see how (especially since the payoff on the loan exceeds the value of the vehicle) but why would they ask otherwise?

OK, just a person (not a lawyer) that has been through an issue similar to
yours. First of all is the car in your name (title)? If it is not then it is
not your car no matter who pays for it. IF that is the case it would not
have to be declared as your property and therefore could not be seized and
"sold off". FTR, most attorneys will give you a free initial consultation.
Please find one and take advantage of it. I waited until I could scrape up
the money for an attorney before doing my bankruptcy and it was a good move
for us but we do have a home and cars to protect. IF you need to find the
sales value of a vehicle to declare, the best legal tip that I received is
to go to a used car salesroom and get a written estimate of what they would
pay to buy your car. It is probably worth a lot less than you think it is.

Wendy

> You're a pretty sharp guy. You veil you're otherwise obvious solicitations by answering all these questions with the same thing in mind, herding people towards further reliance on your profession.

No moreso than a doctor "herds" people to them to diagnose illness, or
architects "herd" people to them to design homes.

The law is often complex and difficult, calling for experience and knowledge
that people who don't do it for a living usually don't have. Can a
non-doctor diagnose illness, a non-architect design a house, or a non-lawyer
file his or her own bankruptcy? Sure. Will they do as good a job as someone
who does it for their livelihood? Probably not. Can they die, have their
house fall down, or end up in a legal mess? Yes.

The things I do aren't a secret. But I've spent 20 years learning about it
and doing it (and am still learning), and someone can't just read a book or
two and know as much.

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't
meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want
legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who
can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:53:06 -0500, "Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com>
wrote:
You're a pretty sharp guy. You veil you're otherwise obvious solicitations by answering all these questions with the same thing in mind, herding people towards further reliance on your profession.No moreso than a doctor "herds" people to them to diagnose illness, orarchitects "herd" people to them to design homes.

Touche'. Maybe herds was a bad choice of words, nudges perhaps?
The law is often complex and difficult, calling for experience and knowledgethat people who don't do it for a living usually don't have. Can anon-doctor diagnose illness, a non-architect design a house, or a non-lawyerfile his or her own bankruptcy? Sure. Will they do as good a job as someonewho does it for their livelihood? Probably not. Can they die, have theirhouse fall down, or end up in a legal mess? Yes.The things I do aren't a secret. But I've spent 20 years learning about itand doing it (and am still learning), and someone can't just read a book ortwo and know as much.

There are also cases that are not complex in the least who anyone with
a little vigilance can figure out and file for themselves.

> >The things I do aren't a secret. But I've spent 20 yearslearning about it and doing it (and am still learning),and someone can't just read a book or two and know as much. There are also cases that are not complex in the least who anyone with a little vigilance can figure out and file for themselves.

Small claims cases? Sure. A simple Chapter 7 bankruptcy? Not with "a little
viligence". Those pro se debtors I've seem who weren't trashed at the
Meeting of Creditors usually spend about 40 hours learning the basics
*before* they file, just so that they won't make the "I didn't know"
mistakes. And if the case is any more complex then that, even a
conscientious pro se is usually out of their depth.

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't
meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want
legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who
can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************

Thanks for the input, everyone. Any recommendations on a good bankruptcy
lawyer in the Bakersfield, CA area?

~t