In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate
life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job
application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees
credit record.

My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately
filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit
reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from
employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of
applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent
bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions.

Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent
references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives.
Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy.
We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years.
Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society;
we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like
us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive
people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same
position as well.

Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better.
Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really
should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making
millions a year.

We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians.
Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at
getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am.

Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work
here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who
hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you
like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its
propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be
surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely
absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of
numbers.

Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

Since you extended the invitation, I will accept...you do sound a little bit
paranoid. I am sure your husband will be fine...it is not true to say
bankruptcy is a mark of Cain on any jobseeker. It's an exaggeration. I am
sorry for your trouble, but don't let your fears run away with you. That
only makes things worse.

It makes me laugh that everytime someone is unhappy with something
(anything) they blame campaign contributions. I am not sure I see the
connection in this case. I think a private employer, in certain situations,
would be irresponsible not to check the credit of prospective employees,
especially if any sort of money or valuables is changing hands. I would
agree with you if you think that some employers can use credit information
(a recent bk filing) the wrong way. But that is true in all aspects of
life, information can always be misused by uninformed people. There is no
plot against you or anyone else.

--



*****

Rob Stumpf, Esq.

Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law
Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ

visit us at www.online-law-firm.com
or email rob@online-law-firm.com


Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to
establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice,
and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your
jurisdiction.
"Sharon" <torgo7@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:632c3647.0308121656.35fb2e2@posting.google.co m... In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

I agree with everything you so eloquently said. We are in the same
situation. And on top of everything else, lobbyists from abroad are
very aggressively working in Washington, making sure American jobs
continue to go overseas. Of course, the people who are now
benefitting from those jobs do not pay taxes here nor do they shop in
the local malls. When the H1B and L1 visa holders come over here to
be trained by Americans whose jobs they will eventually take, they do
not pay income taxes or Social Security out of their paychecks, nor do
they contribute anything to maintaining the infrastructure they use
along along with the rest of us. I read recently that Sandra Day
O'Conor said that if it was a toss up between honoring a trade
agreement with a foreign entity or the Constitution, the trade
agreement would win. What a patriot! Why should she worry -- she has
hers. Even Bill Gates is selling America out by sending call center
jobs to India. Of course, now the IT jobs are going there too.

Ross Perot was a whack job, but he was right when he talked about the
giant sucking sound made as American jobs crossed the border to
Mexico, thanks to NAFTA. And that began with Clinton.

We are losing our middle class because of this. If I decide to file,
I will not feel guilty, especially when I remember how many of the
collections people who called me and were very nasty were calling from
outside the US. That was especially galling -- explaining the
unemployment situation here to someone in a country who was
benefitting from our loss of jobs. I wonder if it makes them smile.

I feel betrayed by my own country.


torgo7@comcast.net (Sharon) wrote in message news:<632c3647.0308121656.35fb2e2@posting.google.com>... In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

It is unfortunate to hear your story. I know that some employers care
about credit history while others do not. Those in financial and
accounting sectors are especially picky about those who have had BK.




torgo7@comcast.net (Sharon) wrote in message news:<632c3647.0308121656.35fb2e2@posting.google.com>... In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

So can you be more specific about the work your husband is looking? I
know some people who have had recent BK but they still keep their
security clearance working in highly sensitive defense industry
sector. But again employers in technology sector generally do not
care about credit history.




torgo7@comcast.net (Sharon) wrote in message news:<632c3647.0308121656.35fb2e2@posting.google.com>... In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

Can he start his own business, maybe offering his skills and
experience on a consulting/contracting basis? If so, buy a copy of J.
Conrad Levinson's "Guerilla Marketing", and let it be your bible. 30
years experience in _anything_ is a _strong_ marketing point.

It's just a job, at the end of the day. I said f--- the corporate life
and their "policies" years ago and have never been happier, or
heathier.

My husband is a Licensed Practical Nurse. Has been for 33 years. He
and others were replaced by per diem people, who don't have to be paid
benefits, and also a number of Filipinos.

When a creditor was bothering us with phone calls, the calls were
coming from Pakistan. Corporate America has absolutely no loyalty to
our country or its citizens.

Making a decision based on credit reports is just another step towards
taking almost total control over peoples' lives. Yes, I may be
paranoid, but look around at what has happened to our "freedoms"
lately. The powers that be have been chipping away at them-with a big
boost from 9/11-until we are slowly approaching a Soviet Union type of
state.

Where are the statistics linking bad credit and BK with bad driving?
Or being a bad employee, for that matter. Wish I had the URL handy
where there are letters to the FCRA by employers asking how far can
they go in using a person's credit rating against them. I think it
would open quite a few eyes, especially the answers given by the
government.

We are being dumped on, again. Isn't it bad enough that these huge
corporate lenders have insured that the general public think we are
just a bunch of big spenders who decided we didn't want to pay bills
anymore and wanted stuff for free? This is another successful outcome
of their campaign to malign those who have suffered through some very
hard times.

It's a means to charge high interest rates (and ask someone who has
had just one late payment on a credit card and seen his/her rate jump
over 10 points) and give employers excuses to hire cheaper foreign
help, as one writer noted how foreign workers are either taking over
jobs or companies are going overseas.

Again,Corporate America has no loyalty to this country, its citizens
and the Constitution. This is another blow and another step towards
an Orwellian future, if it isn't already here.





klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308122215.315e7d6a@posting.google.com>... So can you be more specific about the work your husband is looking? I know some people who have had recent BK but they still keep their security clearance working in highly sensitive defense industry sector. But again employers in technology sector generally do not care about credit history. torgo7@comcast.net (Sharon) wrote in message news:<632c3647.0308121656.35fb2e2@posting.google.com>... In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon" <torgo7@comcast.net>
Newsgroups: alt.bankruptcy
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Had a Bankruptcy? Forget That New Job Or Promotion

My husband is a Licensed Practical Nurse. Has been for 33 years. He and others were replaced by per diem people, who don't have to be paid benefits, and also a number of Filipinos.

There is nothing sinister about Filipinos working, as far as I know. Nor is
there anything wrong with compenstating people an amount they are willing to
accept, within reasonable limits.

As an example, a lot of people knock Wal-Mart for not paying unionized wages
to its empoyees...of course, these are the same people that shop at Wal-Mart
to take advantage of the lower prices it can offer as a result. Unless
there is exploitation, I don't see a problem with not paying people x number
of benefits.


When a creditor was bothering us with phone calls, the calls were coming from Pakistan. Corporate America has absolutely no loyalty to our country or its citizens.

If someone in Pakistan is willing to do the job for $2.00, why should they
pay an American $15.00? Everyone is better off- the Pakistani, who has a
job, the economy of Pakistan, the economy of America (because American
consumers are paying lower prices for the same service) and even the
American in the long run, because he or she can now devote himself to
preparing for a more skilled, and higher paying job. It has nothing to do
with loyalty, it's just basic economics.


Making a decision based on credit reports is just another step towards taking almost total control over peoples' lives. Yes, I may be paranoid, but look around at what has happened to our "freedoms" lately. The powers that be have been chipping away at them-with a big boost from 9/11-until we are slowly approaching a Soviet Union type of state.

I don't think so, Comrade, but you are entitled to your opinion (which you
wouldn't in a "Soviet Union type of state").

Where are the statistics linking bad credit and BK with bad driving? Or being a bad employee, for that matter.

Employers take a whole bunch of things into consideration, as they should.
When it becomes unfair, there are limits that can be imposed upon them.
Unfortunately, there can not be laws or rules to cover every exact
situation...the price would be to lose an important part of the freedom you
say you wish we could protect.



Again,Corporate America has no loyalty to this country, its citizens and the Constitution. This is another blow and another step towards an Orwellian future, if it isn't already here.

Basic Economics don't bring us closer to any Orwellian future. If enough
people let their imaginations run away with them...well, that might.

Again, best of luck in resolving your current situation.

--



*****

Rob Stumpf, Esq.

Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law
Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ

visit us at www.online-law-firm.com
or email rob@online-law-firm.com


Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to
establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice,
and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your
jurisdiction.

I do believe, we as Americans have to take some responsibility for
what's going on with our economy. We blame foreign people when we lose
our jobs, on the other hand we wont work for less than $20 or $25 an
hour, so we can have the TWO BIG SUVs and the BIG HOUSE and enough money
to buy GAS for the SUVs.
Maybe it is time we star looking at a way to live a simpler life without
all the material trappings that we pay for now.

It is100% wrong to say everyone is better off. Basic economics - Person
loses job, no new job created, person can't pay bills, one more poor person
in the economy, economy of the country decreases. This is happening not only
to $15/hr jobs but $40/hr jobs and there are NO new better higher paying
jobs being created. It's dollar drain, job drain and brain drain all
occuring right now. The first thing to be done is eliminate the bogus H and
L type visas. Americans are being forced to train the people that will take
the jobs out of the country.

The american workers with 20 to 30 years experience are being sent on the
express to the poor house by "Corporate America" with the help of the
politicians.


"Robert Stumpf" <rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote in message
news:bhdqq8$118er5$1@ID-200874.news.uni-berlin.de... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon" <torgo7@comcast.net> Newsgroups: alt.bankruptcy Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:19 AM Subject: Re: Had a Bankruptcy? Forget That New Job Or Promotion My husband is a Licensed Practical Nurse. Has been for 33 years. He and others were replaced by per diem people, who don't have to be paid benefits, and also a number of Filipinos. There is nothing sinister about Filipinos working, as far as I know. Nor
is there anything wrong with compenstating people an amount they are willing
to accept, within reasonable limits. As an example, a lot of people knock Wal-Mart for not paying unionized
wages to its empoyees...of course, these are the same people that shop at
Wal-Mart to take advantage of the lower prices it can offer as a result. Unless there is exploitation, I don't see a problem with not paying people x
number of benefits. When a creditor was bothering us with phone calls, the calls were coming from Pakistan. Corporate America has absolutely no loyalty to our country or its citizens. If someone in Pakistan is willing to do the job for $2.00, why should they pay an American $15.00? Everyone is better off- the Pakistani, who has a job, the economy of Pakistan, the economy of America (because American consumers are paying lower prices for the same service) and even the American in the long run, because he or she can now devote himself to preparing for a more skilled, and higher paying job. It has nothing to do with loyalty, it's just basic economics. Making a decision based on credit reports is just another step towards taking almost total control over peoples' lives. Yes, I may be paranoid, but look around at what has happened to our "freedoms" lately. The powers that be have been chipping away at them-with a big boost from 9/11-until we are slowly approaching a Soviet Union type of state. I don't think so, Comrade, but you are entitled to your opinion (which you wouldn't in a "Soviet Union type of state"). Where are the statistics linking bad credit and BK with bad driving? Or being a bad employee, for that matter. Employers take a whole bunch of things into consideration, as they should. When it becomes unfair, there are limits that can be imposed upon them. Unfortunately, there can not be laws or rules to cover every exact situation...the price would be to lose an important part of the freedom
you say you wish we could protect. Again,Corporate America has no loyalty to this country, its citizens and the Constitution. This is another blow and another step towards an Orwellian future, if it isn't already here. Basic Economics don't bring us closer to any Orwellian future. If enough people let their imaginations run away with them...well, that might. Again, best of luck in resolving your current situation. -- ***** Rob Stumpf, Esq. Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ visit us at www.online-law-firm.com or email rob@online-law-firm.com Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal
advice, and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your jurisdiction.

Why should Corporate America have loyalty to a country? Corporate
American loyalty should be to their stock holders.

Face the truth, most people who filed BK are due to bad personal
financial planning (including myself). You need to learn the lesson
and not to repeat it again. It is not good to blame it on others.





torgo7@comcast.net (Sharon) wrote in message news:<632c3647.0308130619.26b672ad@posting.google.com>... My husband is a Licensed Practical Nurse. Has been for 33 years. He and others were replaced by per diem people, who don't have to be paid benefits, and also a number of Filipinos. When a creditor was bothering us with phone calls, the calls were coming from Pakistan. Corporate America has absolutely no loyalty to our country or its citizens. Making a decision based on credit reports is just another step towards taking almost total control over peoples' lives. Yes, I may be paranoid, but look around at what has happened to our "freedoms" lately. The powers that be have been chipping away at them-with a big boost from 9/11-until we are slowly approaching a Soviet Union type of state. Where are the statistics linking bad credit and BK with bad driving? Or being a bad employee, for that matter. Wish I had the URL handy where there are letters to the FCRA by employers asking how far can they go in using a person's credit rating against them. I think it would open quite a few eyes, especially the answers given by the government. We are being dumped on, again. Isn't it bad enough that these huge corporate lenders have insured that the general public think we are just a bunch of big spenders who decided we didn't want to pay bills anymore and wanted stuff for free? This is another successful outcome of their campaign to malign those who have suffered through some very hard times. It's a means to charge high interest rates (and ask someone who has had just one late payment on a credit card and seen his/her rate jump over 10 points) and give employers excuses to hire cheaper foreign help, as one writer noted how foreign workers are either taking over jobs or companies are going overseas. Again,Corporate America has no loyalty to this country, its citizens and the Constitution. This is another blow and another step towards an Orwellian future, if it isn't already here. klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308122215.315e7d6a@posting.google.com>... So can you be more specific about the work your husband is looking? I know some people who have had recent BK but they still keep their security clearance working in highly sensitive defense industry sector. But again employers in technology sector generally do not care about credit history. torgo7@comcast.net (Sharon) wrote in message news:<632c3647.0308121656.35fb2e2@posting.google.com>... In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

That's not necessarily true. I know a former bank HR director who told
me that a bankruptcy is not a strike against an applicant and that they
would consider a former bankrupt. What does hurt is a high debt load
and not paying your bills. That shows, to them, that you are not
willing to face your problems and deal with them honestly. A
bankruptcy, to a bank, shows that you are willing to face and manage
your financial situation honestly, she said.

J.

Sharon wrote:
In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

great avoidance of the facts!

You missed the point. and NOTHING is "always"

Thank you, that is encouraging. When a person is depressed,
everything looks like bad news.



John <jmeola75@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<mtE_a.24732$Vx2.11145155@newssvr28.news.prodigy.co m>... That's not necessarily true. I know a former bank HR director who told me that a bankruptcy is not a strike against an applicant and that they would consider a former bankrupt. What does hurt is a high debt load and not paying your bills. That shows, to them, that you are not willing to face your problems and deal with them honestly. A bankruptcy, to a bank, shows that you are willing to face and manage your financial situation honestly, she said. J. Sharon wrote: In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations, excellent references and in the course of his career has saved peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24 years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

I have represented a number of debtors with security clearances.
Most are worried that the bankruptcy will result in them losing
their clearance. None have, to my knowledge. I tell them to tell
the security officer why they fell behind, and note that with the
bankruptcy discharge, they are *less* of a security risk, since
their debts are wiped out and they are *less* succeptible to
financial coercion as a result.

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts
and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************


"John" <jmeola75@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mtE_a.24732$Vx2.11145155@newssvr28.news.prodi gy.com... That's not necessarily true. I know a former bank HR director
who told me that a bankruptcy is not a strike against an applicant and
that they would consider a former bankrupt. What does hurt is a high
debt load and not paying your bills. That shows, to them, that you are
not willing to face your problems and deal with them honestly. A bankruptcy, to a bank, shows that you are willing to face and
manage your financial situation honestly, she said. J. Sharon wrote: In the continuing campaign to destroy people who have had
unfortunate life events and/or met up with criminal lenders, now nearly
every job application is asking to pull the prospective or current
employees credit record. My husband's job was eliminated last week and he is
desperately filling out applications. Every one is asking to pull his
credit reports. I was reading a bunch of letters on the FTC site
from employers who come right out and say that if they get a bunch
of applications, they immediately throw out anyone who has had a
recent bankruptcy. Ditto for promotions. Now, my husband has worked for 30+ years, got commendations,
excellent references and in the course of his career has saved
peoples'lives. Now all of a sudden he's toast because he had to declare
bankruptcy. We never had one single late payment to anyone in over 24
years. Doesn't matter. We did the ultimate sin against this crapola
society; we threw in the towel before we starved to death. Keeping
people like us down is going to do nothing towards helping us become
productive people contributing to the economy, or anyone else in the
same position as well. Like I stated in my other message, criminals are treated
better. Especially white collar ones. And certainly the ones who
really should be in the federal pen but instead are still around
making millions a year. We are the ones who can't make huge contributions to
politicians. Therefore, we are easy victims used as tools to make them
look good at getting us bad guys. Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. Am I the only one who is sensing some kind of sinister plan
at work here to allow lenders and others to milk even more from those
who hardly have anything left to give? You can call me paranoid
if you like, but if people would tear themselves away from the TV
and its propaganda and start researching for themselves they just
might be surprised at what they discover. The human element is almost
entirely absent. The future is here; we have become nothing but a
series of numbers. Off the soapbox for now. No such thing as justice anymore.

K. Kim -- you are so wrong about this. These jobs are being sent
overseas, not phased out, because the workforce there is cheaper, not
necessarily better. My husband belongs to a lot of networking groups
here, and there are MANY high-end people out of work, people with
amazing resumes, multiple degrees, and who have kept current with
technology.

America is a global economy that puts economics over citizens. I do
not think any other country does this, and they would not do this for
us, certainly, if the situation were to be reversed.

There is also the issue of national security. If U.S. companies get
real comfortable sending programming jobs overseas, how will they
check and verify credentials? If enough people with intent to harm
America get these jobs, and there are some very well-educated folks
who hate us out there, you'll see a lot more happening here than
planes taking down buildings or widespread blackouts. Scoff if you
want, but it will happen.



klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308131330.3df32fa8@posting.google.com>... Unfortunately, those average Americans, who lose their jobs, are the least competitive in a global market. If the US wants to remain competitive, Americans need to know that certain jobs have to be phased out. The low-end jobs are always in danger of losing its competitive edge. But the high-end jobs and the best jobs will always stay in the US.

"Dee" <OldNDownsized@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3889550b.0308161110.1befcea0@posting.google.c om... K. Kim -- you are so wrong about this. These jobs are being sent overseas, not phased out, because the workforce there is cheaper, not necessarily better.

In business, cheaper can be better.



My husband belongs to a lot of networking groups here, and there are MANY high-end people out of work, people with amazing resumes, multiple degrees, and who have kept current with technology.

High End people should be out of work, if they can't compete with others
that have some type of skills but are willing to do the work for half the
cost.

If you ran a business, would you hire a computer programmer with a doctorate
from Stanford for $125,000, or an immigrant from India with a Master's
Degree what would be willing to work for $40,000? Assume they could both
handle the assignment.

It's fortunate for our economy that prudent business people would hire the
latter, because otherwise everyone in our country would be paying higher
prices for the exact same services. And of course, then, people would be
complaining about inflation. People on usenet would be screaming that the
rich are raising prices for us poor middle class scrubs!

There is also the issue of national security. If U.S. companies get real comfortable sending programming jobs overseas, how will they check and verify credentials? If enough people with intent to harm America get these jobs, and there are some very well-educated folks who hate us out there, you'll see a lot more happening here than planes taking down buildings or widespread blackouts. Scoff if you want, but it will happen.

With all due respect to you, I do scoff at this point. I scoff and scoff
and scoff some more!


*****

Rob Stumpf, Esq.

Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law
Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ

visit us at www.online-law-firm.com
or email rob@online-law-firm.com


Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to
establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice,
and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your
jurisdiction.
klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message
news:<f66f76cf.0308131330.3df32fa8@posting.google.com>... Unfortunately, those average Americans, who lose their jobs, are the least competitive in a global market. If the US wants to remain competitive, Americans need to know that certain jobs have to be phased out. The low-end jobs are always in danger of losing its competitive edge. But the high-end jobs and the best jobs will always stay in the US.

I am not sure if this thread belongs to this forum.

But I want to rephrase my previous message. Those jobs, which are
lost to overseas workers, are obsolete and outdated. Those jobs need
to be phased out. However, I also agree that there are many high-end
people who are currently out of work. But they are out of work not
because their jobs are shipped to overseas. They are out of work
because the current economies cannot support them. Once the economies
improves, the high end people will get their jobs back. Their
skills/knowledge are very difficult to be replaced by oversea workers.
However, for those low-end people, even after the economies improves,
they will not get their jobs back because their job have been shipped
overseas.




OldNDownsized@aol.com (Dee) wrote in message news:<3889550b.0308161110.1befcea0@posting.google.com>... K. Kim -- you are so wrong about this. These jobs are being sent overseas, not phased out, because the workforce there is cheaper, not necessarily better. My husband belongs to a lot of networking groups here, and there are MANY high-end people out of work, people with amazing resumes, multiple degrees, and who have kept current with technology. America is a global economy that puts economics over citizens. I do not think any other country does this, and they would not do this for us, certainly, if the situation were to be reversed. There is also the issue of national security. If U.S. companies get real comfortable sending programming jobs overseas, how will they check and verify credentials? If enough people with intent to harm America get these jobs, and there are some very well-educated folks who hate us out there, you'll see a lot more happening here than planes taking down buildings or widespread blackouts. Scoff if you want, but it will happen. klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308131330.3df32fa8@posting.google.com>... Unfortunately, those average Americans, who lose their jobs, are the least competitive in a global market. If the US wants to remain competitive, Americans need to know that certain jobs have to be phased out. The low-end jobs are always in danger of losing its competitive edge. But the high-end jobs and the best jobs will always stay in the US.

You are also very wrong that the US is not the only country which
ships their jobs overseas. European countries are doing this, too.
Western European countries have been shipping jobs to low-cost nations
in Eastern Europe. Japan has been shipping their jobs to low-cost
nations in Southeast Asia and China for more than 30 years. Even
countries like Taiwan and S Korea are shipping their less competitive
jobs out. It is just a fact of global economies.

Only by phasing out the less competitive jobs, the US can remain at
the top of the food chain. For examples, in IT sector, those
programmers, who are doing implementation and realization, are in
danger of losing their jobs to their counterparts in India. But those
programmers, who are doing archietecture or are in RD, their jobs will
not be shipped out to India.




OldNDownsized@aol.com (Dee) wrote in message news:<3889550b.0308161110.1befcea0@posting.google.com>... K. Kim -- you are so wrong about this. These jobs are being sent overseas, not phased out, because the workforce there is cheaper, not necessarily better. My husband belongs to a lot of networking groups here, and there are MANY high-end people out of work, people with amazing resumes, multiple degrees, and who have kept current with technology. America is a global economy that puts economics over citizens. I do not think any other country does this, and they would not do this for us, certainly, if the situation were to be reversed. There is also the issue of national security. If U.S. companies get real comfortable sending programming jobs overseas, how will they check and verify credentials? If enough people with intent to harm America get these jobs, and there are some very well-educated folks who hate us out there, you'll see a lot more happening here than planes taking down buildings or widespread blackouts. Scoff if you want, but it will happen. klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308131330.3df32fa8@posting.google.com>... Unfortunately, those average Americans, who lose their jobs, are the least competitive in a global market. If the US wants to remain competitive, Americans need to know that certain jobs have to be phased out. The low-end jobs are always in danger of losing its competitive edge. But the high-end jobs and the best jobs will always stay in the US.

"Robert Stumpf" <rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote in message news:<bhmeji$11a7c$1@ID-200874.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Dee" <OldNDownsized@aol.com> wrote in message news:3889550b.0308161110.1befcea0@posting.google.c om... K. Kim -- you are so wrong about this. These jobs are being sent overseas, not phased out, because the workforce there is cheaper, not necessarily better. In business, cheaper can be better. My husband belongs to a lot of networking groups here, and there are MANY high-end people out of work, people with amazing resumes, multiple degrees, and who have kept current with technology. High End people should be out of work, if they can't compete with others that have some type of skills but are willing to do the work for half the cost.

Actually, they were never even given that option, you know, of working
for half their former salary. It would be uncomfortable, but you
could still put food on the table. The jobs just -- disappeared. A
lot of these people have used their investments to stay afloat, and
when that money was gone, and the Cobra benefits were gone and they
could no longer afford medical attention for their kids, the cars were
repoed and the house was foreclosed and the marriage was wrecked. I'm
not making this up. I know several people to whom this has happened,
including one guy who lost his job two weeks after his seriously ill
baby girl was born.

Are you a high end person, Esq.? Has any of this hurt your wallet
yet? I doubt it, considering the tone of your posts. And I hope it
doesn't. But when it does, you'll be singing a different song. I
don't know what type of legal work you do, but if you depend on the
middle class, you better, in your own words, be "willing to do the
work for half the cost." Because the middle class is dwindling, and
the lucky ones get to work for half the cost. Most of us don't get
that choice. We'll have to go to Legal Aid. Will we see you there on
the other side of the desk? Or does your practice consist mostly of
Corporate America? If so, you'll continue to do well, and you can
afford to scoff. What the heck, you've got yours, right?

Even now, medical diagnostic tests are being read and interpreted in
India, although most people are not aware of it. It's not widespread,
but it is a trend, and of course it is cheaper, and if everyone thinks
the way you do, that means it must be better. When I go to my
physician, who was educated at one of the best medical schools in the
U.S., I expect my diagnostic tests to be read here by someone with a
similar education. We'll send your colonoscopy biopsy test overseas
for diagnostic analysis -- I'd like mine kept in the U.S.
If you ran a business, would you hire a computer programmer with a doctorate from Stanford for $125,000, or an immigrant from India with a Master's Degree what would be willing to work for $40,000? Assume they could both handle the assignment. It's fortunate for our economy that prudent business people would hire the latter, because otherwise everyone in our country would be paying higher prices for the exact same services. And of course, then, people would be complaining about inflation. People on usenet would be screaming that the rich are raising prices for us poor middle class scrubs!
In your world, there will no longer even be a middle class. We're
getting squeezed out. One day you, Esq., can tell your grandkids how
there used to be a middle class, but there is no more. There is also the issue of national security. If U.S. companies get real comfortable sending programming jobs overseas, how will they check and verify credentials? If enough people with intent to harm America get these jobs, and there are some very well-educated folks who hate us out there, you'll see a lot more happening here than planes taking down buildings or widespread blackouts. Scoff if you want, but it will happen. With all due respect to you, I do scoff at this point. I scoff and scoff and scoff some more!

On September 10, 2001, you would have scoffed at the scenario that
played out on September 11th if anyone had offered it to you as a
possibility. Security is a serious consideration with programming
work going overseas.

If we are offshoring the programming work for state governments,
utility companies, transportation companies, manufacturing, along with
medical diagnostics, and eventually the financial industry...they can
bring our economy to it's knees just by turning on a bug that has been
planted deep in the code. And they won't even need to hijack four
planes create financial chaos here. Of course, AFTER we realize just
what happened and how, the corporate CEOs and CFOs, they guys who came
up with offshoring because it looked cheaper, will do mea culpas and
beat their breasts and profess they had no idea this could happen. We
can't even find the terrorists in sleeper cells in this country...they
blend in so well. How will we ever do it overseas?

Geez -- after writing all this, I just noticed your company name and
the type of law you practice. No wonder you're in favor of this.
It's good for business! No jobs, no income, people can't pay their
bills and voila -- they see you! Now I'm the one scoffing.
***** Rob Stumpf, Esq. Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ visit us at www.online-law-firm.com or email rob@online-law-firm.com Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice, and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your jurisdiction. klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308131330.3df32fa8@posting.google.com>... Unfortunately, those average Americans, who lose their jobs, are the least competitive in a global market. If the US wants to remain competitive, Americans need to know that certain jobs have to be phased out. The low-end jobs are always in danger of losing its competitive edge. But the high-end jobs and the best jobs will always stay in the US.

klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308161707.7b998a66@posting.google.com>... I am not sure if this thread belongs to this forum. But I want to rephrase my previous message. Those jobs, which are lost to overseas workers, are obsolete and outdated. Those jobs need to be phased out.

Kim, I disagree. India, China and the Philipines are not taking our
obsolete and outdated jobs. We get to keep those until they are
discontinued. They are taking our call center jobs by the truckload,
and these were not high-end jobs -- they paid, what $12-$16 per hour?
And they are also venturing into the IT realm -- and as they do well
on the maintenance type of work, they will be given work with more and
greater responsibility. I'm talking about the jobs that paid between
$50,000 to $80,000 per year. Meanwhile, people here are suffering.
And they are taking our manufacturing jobs. They just closed a
factory in the south, Hooker, I think they made furniture...not sure,
and sent it abroad. The company was doing very well, exceedingly
well. But they could make even more money overseas. It was in a
small, southern, one-company town, and people there were not making
huge salaries, from the interviews it looked like they couldn't even
afford dental work. But they did survive, pay their bills, put food
on the table. Now there is nothing there but poverty. There are many
examples like this. So it affects low-end people too.

However, I also agree that there are many high-end people who are currently out of work. But they are out of work not because their jobs are shipped to overseas. They are out of work because the current economies cannot support them. Once the economies improves, the high end people will get their jobs back. Their skills/knowledge are very difficult to be replaced by oversea workers. However, for those low-end people, even after the economies improves, they will not get their jobs back because their job have been shipped overseas. OldNDownsized@aol.com (Dee) wrote in message news:<3889550b.0308161110.1befcea0@posting.google.com>... K. Kim -- you are so wrong about this. These jobs are being sent overseas, not phased out, because the workforce there is cheaper, not necessarily better. My husband belongs to a lot of networking groups here, and there are MANY high-end people out of work, people with amazing resumes, multiple degrees, and who have kept current with technology. America is a global economy that puts economics over citizens. I do not think any other country does this, and they would not do this for us, certainly, if the situation were to be reversed. There is also the issue of national security. If U.S. companies get real comfortable sending programming jobs overseas, how will they check and verify credentials? If enough people with intent to harm America get these jobs, and there are some very well-educated folks who hate us out there, you'll see a lot more happening here than planes taking down buildings or widespread blackouts. Scoff if you want, but it will happen. klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308131330.3df32fa8@posting.google.com>... Unfortunately, those average Americans, who lose their jobs, are the least competitive in a global market. If the US wants to remain competitive, Americans need to know that certain jobs have to be phased out. The low-end jobs are always in danger of losing its competitive edge. But the high-end jobs and the best jobs will always stay in the US.

klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308161707.7b998a66@posting.google.com>... I am not sure if this thread belongs to this forum. But I want to rephrase my previous message. Those jobs, which are lost to overseas workers, are obsolete and outdated. Those jobs need to be phased out.

Kim, I disagree. India, China and the Philipines are not taking our
obsolete and outdated jobs. We get to keep those until they are
discontinued. They are taking our call center jobs by the truckload,
and these were not high-end jobs -- they paid, what $12-$16 per hour?
And they are also venturing into the IT realm -- and as they do well
on the maintenance type of work, they will be given work with more and
greater responsibility. I'm talking about the jobs that paid between
$50,000 to $80,000 per year. Meanwhile, people here are suffering.
And they are taking our manufacturing jobs. They just closed a
factory in the south, Hooker, I think they made furniture...not sure,
and sent it abroad. The company was doing very well, exceedingly
well. But they could make even more money overseas. It was in a
small, southern, one-company town, and people there were not making
huge salaries, from the interviews it looked like they couldn't even
afford dental work. But they did survive, pay their bills, put food
on the table. Now there is nothing there but poverty. There are many
examples like this. So it affects low-end people too.

However, I also agree that there are many high-end people who are currently out of work. But they are out of work not because their jobs are shipped to overseas. They are out of work because the current economies cannot support them. Once the economies improves, the high end people will get their jobs back. Their skills/knowledge are very difficult to be replaced by oversea workers. However, for those low-end people, even after the economies improves, they will not get their jobs back because their job have been shipped overseas. OldNDownsized@aol.com (Dee) wrote in message news:<3889550b.0308161110.1befcea0@posting.google.com>... K. Kim -- you are so wrong about this. These jobs are being sent overseas, not phased out, because the workforce there is cheaper, not necessarily better. My husband belongs to a lot of networking groups here, and there are MANY high-end people out of work, people with amazing resumes, multiple degrees, and who have kept current with technology. America is a global economy that puts economics over citizens. I do not think any other country does this, and they would not do this for us, certainly, if the situation were to be reversed. There is also the issue of national security. If U.S. companies get real comfortable sending programming jobs overseas, how will they check and verify credentials? If enough people with intent to harm America get these jobs, and there are some very well-educated folks who hate us out there, you'll see a lot more happening here than planes taking down buildings or widespread blackouts. Scoff if you want, but it will happen. klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308131330.3df32fa8@posting.google.com>... Unfortunately, those average Americans, who lose their jobs, are the least competitive in a global market. If the US wants to remain competitive, Americans need to know that certain jobs have to be phased out. The low-end jobs are always in danger of losing its competitive edge. But the high-end jobs and the best jobs will always stay in the US.

"Dee" <OldNDownsized@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3889550b.0308162257.4d1d83c1@posting.google.c om... "Robert Stumpf" <rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote in message
news:<bhmeji$11a7c$1@ID-200874.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Dee" <OldNDownsized@aol.com> wrote in message news:3889550b.0308161110.1befcea0@posting.google.c om... Actually, they were never even given that option, you know, of working for half their former salary. It would be uncomfortable, but you could still put food on the table. The jobs just -- disappeared. A lot of these people have used their investments to stay afloat, and when that money was gone, and the Cobra benefits were gone and they could no longer afford medical attention for their kids, the cars were repoed and the house was foreclosed and the marriage was wrecked. I'm not making this up. I know several people to whom this has happened, including one guy who lost his job two weeks after his seriously ill baby girl was born.

That happens. A lot depends on your expectation. If anyone thinks that in
the modern economy, they will be guaranteed a job for life, they are simply
mistaken. When you work for someone, you are selling your services, and
sometimes you will be able to sell that service, and sometimes you won't.
Time to wake up and smell the coffee...this is not 1950.

Should people make long-term plans on such tenuous grounds that you might
lose a job at any time? I can't say, but at the very least it's something
to think about. Many people unfortunately take these things for granted,
and they are often hurt the worst.




Are you a high end person, Esq.? Has any of this hurt your wallet yet? I doubt it, considering the tone of your posts.

I am not rich now, never was, and probably never will be. But facts are
facts. A business is not going to pay twice on salary costs to get the same
thing, just as you don't buy a carton of eggs for $10.00 if you don't have
to.




And I hope it doesn't. But when it does, you'll be singing a different song. I don't know what type of legal work you do,

Bankruptcy.



but if you depend on the middle class, you better, in your own words, be "willing to do the work for half the cost." Because the middle class is dwindling, and the lucky ones get to work for half the cost. Most of us don't get that choice. We'll have to go to Legal Aid. Will we see you there on the other side of the desk? Or does your practice consist mostly of Corporate America? If so, you'll continue to do well, and you can afford to scoff. What the heck, you've got yours, right?

Whatever. It's not about me, or you, or your husband, or any particular
individual. It's about economics. You can't change it, so it makes more
sense to adjust to it. I don't see how it helps to whine about it.




Even now, medical diagnostic tests are being read and interpreted in India, although most people are not aware of it. It's not widespread, but it is a trend, and of course it is cheaper, and if everyone thinks the way you do, that means it must be better. When I go to my physician, who was educated at one of the best medical schools in the U.S., I expect my diagnostic tests to be read here by someone with a similar education. We'll send your colonoscopy biopsy test overseas for diagnostic analysis -- I'd like mine kept in the U.S. If you ran a business, would you hire a computer programmer with a
doctorate from Stanford for $125,000, or an immigrant from India with a Master's Degree what would be willing to work for $40,000? Assume they could
both handle the assignment. In your world, there will no longer even be a middle class. We're getting squeezed out. One day you, Esq., can tell your grandkids how there used to be a middle class, but there is no more.

You didn't answer the question.

Of course, the middle class can simply survive by training for jobs and
services that people want, as opposed to those that people don't want.


On September 10, 2001, you would have scoffed at the scenario that played out on September 11th if anyone had offered it to you as a possibility. Security is a serious consideration with programming work going overseas.

9/11 didn't happen because of economics, as least if you don't want to talk
about the excuses the terrorists might have had for hating America. And if
our country is in danger from foreigners, that is more a problem with
immigration than it is with economics.

The bottom line is simple. If we pay people more for a job than they are
worth, we all eventually are worse off.



Geez -- after writing all this, I just noticed your company name and the type of law you practice. No wonder you're in favor of this. It's good for business! No jobs, no income, people can't pay their bills and voila -- they see you! Now I'm the one scoffing.

Whatever you say, dear. I don't like to see people in trouble, that's why I
am in business to help them. But I think no help I can give them is as
valuable then having them act realistically in the face of what is actually
happening. The reality is this: we live in a global economy, and we have to
adjust to the fact that employment is much more of a temporary situation
than it used to be. All of this whimpering about coporate America,
unfairness, national security, your brother in law's mortgage, etc. is going
to change it.



***** Rob Stumpf, Esq. Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ visit us at www.online-law-firm.com or email rob@online-law-firm.com

It is nothing new that the US transfers jobs overseas. The US has
been doing this since late 60s. Of course, during the each wave,
workers in different sectors of industry are affected. During the
late 60s, it is the light industry, for example, textile industry.
And during the late 80s, it is the heavy industry, for exmaple, steel
industry. And now, it is the IT sectors. It is actually nothing new.

Of course, for the people who are affected, the consequences are
difficult to swallow.

The jobs paying 50K-60K are not high-end jobs in IT. The jobs at call
center are not high-end jobs. The US needs to constantly reinvent
itself in a global market. For exmaple, while most low-end textile
industry disappears in the US, the high-end designer textitle industry
like Ralph Laurent and Hugo Boss are doing very well. They are the
ones that survive.



OldNDownsized@aol.com (Dee) wrote in message news:<3889550b.0308171100.339e55e7@posting.google.com>... klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308161707.7b998a66@posting.google.com>... I am not sure if this thread belongs to this forum. But I want to rephrase my previous message. Those jobs, which are lost to overseas workers, are obsolete and outdated. Those jobs need to be phased out. Kim, I disagree. India, China and the Philipines are not taking our obsolete and outdated jobs. We get to keep those until they are discontinued. They are taking our call center jobs by the truckload, and these were not high-end jobs -- they paid, what $12-$16 per hour? And they are also venturing into the IT realm -- and as they do well on the maintenance type of work, they will be given work with more and greater responsibility. I'm talking about the jobs that paid between $50,000 to $80,000 per year. Meanwhile, people here are suffering. And they are taking our manufacturing jobs. They just closed a factory in the south, Hooker, I think they made furniture...not sure, and sent it abroad. The company was doing very well, exceedingly well. But they could make even more money overseas. It was in a small, southern, one-company town, and people there were not making huge salaries, from the interviews it looked like they couldn't even afford dental work. But they did survive, pay their bills, put food on the table. Now there is nothing there but poverty. There are many examples like this. So it affects low-end people too. However, I also agree that there are many high-end people who are currently out of work. But they are out of work not because their jobs are shipped to overseas. They are out of work because the current economies cannot support them. Once the economies improves, the high end people will get their jobs back. Their skills/knowledge are very difficult to be replaced by oversea workers. However, for those low-end people, even after the economies improves, they will not get their jobs back because their job have been shipped overseas. OldNDownsized@aol.com (Dee) wrote in message news:<3889550b.0308161110.1befcea0@posting.google.com>... K. Kim -- you are so wrong about this. These jobs are being sent overseas, not phased out, because the workforce there is cheaper, not necessarily better. My husband belongs to a lot of networking groups here, and there are MANY high-end people out of work, people with amazing resumes, multiple degrees, and who have kept current with technology. America is a global economy that puts economics over citizens. I do not think any other country does this, and they would not do this for us, certainly, if the situation were to be reversed. There is also the issue of national security. If U.S. companies get real comfortable sending programming jobs overseas, how will they check and verify credentials? If enough people with intent to harm America get these jobs, and there are some very well-educated folks who hate us out there, you'll see a lot more happening here than planes taking down buildings or widespread blackouts. Scoff if you want, but it will happen. klm_kim@yahoo.com (K Kim) wrote in message news:<f66f76cf.0308131330.3df32fa8@posting.google.com>... > Unfortunately, those average Americans, who lose their jobs, are the > least competitive in a global market. If the US wants to remain > competitive, Americans need to know that certain jobs have to be > phased out. The low-end jobs are always in danger of losing its > competitive edge. But the high-end jobs and the best jobs will always > stay in the US. >

> Aside, if at all possible, I'd simply avoid working for any company that feels so compelled to probe my personal affairs that they even need
to pull a bureau (or, for that matter, drug test, polygraph, etc.)

A company that doesn't do drug testing or a background check in this day
and age? Good luck finding one!

J.

SRS wrote: "Robert Stumpf" <rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote in news:bhc9tg$uv21q$1@ID-200874.news.uni-berlin.de:I think a private employer, in certainsituations, would be irresponsible not to check the credit ofprospective employees, especially if any sort of money or valuables ischanging hands. File it under "The law of irony is to be liberally construed", but I went from filing Ch. 7 in (a) December some years back, three months hence was hired as (you guessed it) a loan collector for a _large_ bank. Aside, if at all possible, I'd simply avoid working for any company that feels so compelled to probe my personal affairs that they even need to pull a bureau (or, for that matter, drug test, polygraph, etc.)

Rob,
What happens to the masses of people who
a) Are of an age where they cannot be retrained,
b) Do not have the intelligence, money, etc. to study for these new
careers, or
c) Are best suited to working with their hands, viz. making things?

I agree with your point that Americans want everything at rock-bottom
prices yet throw a fit when they see it's made in China or see their
local factory close. Obviously they do not see the nexus between cost
of labor and cost of goods. However, people are not like redundant
appliances; they are not disposable or throw-away items.

What solution should there be for these people? Please do not say "the
free market" as this has increasingly become a way of avoiding the real
debate about this. Capitalism, like socialism, is an economic system
that has flaws that need addressed. If everything were left to the free
market, income inequality would be worse than it is now and this would
be politically destablizing. When people get fed up with not having
enough to eat or seeing their families starving, the general rule is
they resort to extremism and seek relief through totalitarian regimes
(e.g., France, Russia, Germany, etc.).

Yes, I am aware that such extremism did not occur in Great Britain
during the 19th C. However, as history has shown, Britain was the
exception and not the rule.

J.

Rob Stumpf wrote:
"average american" <no@nomail.com> wrote in message news:<4tv_a.9367$UB4.8916@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>...It is100% wrong to say everyone is better off. Basic economics - Personloses job, no new job created, person can't pay bills, one more poor personin the economy, economy of the country decreases. Incorrect. If a person is making $50 an hour to produce something no one wants anymore, they SHOULD lose their job, so the economy as a whole can invest those same resources in a more efficent way. It is better that one $50 an hour useless job be eliminated so two real $25 jobs can be created, any day. An economy needs to constantly evolve and find the most efficent processes possible- otherwise you will find yourself in permanent economic hell, like Japan. This is how things happen, whether you like it or not, and it's better that they do. This is why we have social safety nets and retraining, so the effects of these things are mitigated on the individuals that are laid off. No one likes to see people go unemployed, but people need to have a mature understanding of what the job market really is, and need to stop whining when all their needs are not forever taken care of. This is happening not onlyto $15/hr jobs but $40/hr jobs and there are NO new better higher payingjobs being created. It's dollar drain, job drain and brain drain alloccuring right now. The first thing to be done is eliminate the bogus H andL type visas. Americans are being forced to train the people that will takethe jobs out of the country. Nonsense, because of course the economy as a whole would rather pay computer programmers $20 rather than $35. This way the millions people who use software pay lower prices for it. Please tell us if you are willing to pay $300 for a copy of Microsoft XP just so we can pay programmers (American born!) in Redmond a big bonus at the end of the year!The american workers with 20 to 30 years experience are being sent on theexpress to the poor house by "Corporate America" with the help of thepoliticians. More baloney, because there is no difference between Corporate America and Americans. Who owns, works for, and manages American business? Martians? People from another planet? No, Americans themselves."Robert Stumpf" <rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote in messagenews:bhdqq8$118er5$1@ID-200874.news.uni-berlin.de...----- Original Message -----From: "Sharon" <torgo7@comcast.net>Newsgroups: alt.bankruptcySent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:19 AMSubject: Re: Had a Bankruptcy? Forget That New Job Or Promotion>My husband is a Licensed Practical Nurse. Has been for 33 years. He>and others were replaced by per diem people, who don't have to be paid>benefits, and also a number of Filipinos.There is nothing sinister about Filipinos working, as far as I know. Nor isthere anything wrong with compenstating people an amount they are willing toaccept, within reasonable limits.As an example, a lot of people knock Wal-Mart for not paying unionized wagesto its empoyees...of course, these are the same people that shop at Wal-Martto take advantage of the lower prices it can offer as a result. Unlessthere is exploitation, I don't see a problem with not paying people x numberof benefits.>When a creditor was bothering us with phone calls, the calls were>coming from Pakistan. Corporate America has absolutely no loyalty to>our country or its citizens.If someone in Pakistan is willing to do the job for $2.00, why should theypay an American $15.00? Everyone is better off- the Pakistani, who has ajob, the economy of Pakistan, the economy of America (because Americanconsumers are paying lower prices for the same service) and even theAmerican in the long run, because he or she can now devote himself topreparing for a more skilled, and higher paying job. It has nothing to dowith loyalty, it's just basic economics.>Making a decision based on credit reports is just another step towards>taking almost total control over peoples' lives. Yes, I may be>paranoid, but look around at what has happened to our "freedoms">lately. The powers that be have been chipping away at them-with a big>boost from 9/11-until we are slowly approaching a Soviet Union type of>state.I don't think so, Comrade, but you are entitled to your opinion (which youwouldn't in a "Soviet Union type of state").>Where are the statistics linking bad credit and BK with bad driving?>Or being a bad employee, for that matter.Employers take a whole bunch of things into consideration, as they should.When it becomes unfair, there are limits that can be imposed upon them.Unfortunately, there can not be laws or rules to cover every exactsituation...the price would be to lose an important part of the freedom yousay you wish we could protect.>Again,Corporate America has no loyalty to this country, its citizens>and the Constitution. This is another blow and another step towards>an Orwellian future, if it isn't already here.Basic Economics don't bring us closer to any Orwellian future. If enoughpeople let their imaginations run away with them...well, that might.Again, best of luck in resolving your current situation.--*****Rob Stumpf, Esq.Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at LawPracticing Bankruptcy in NY and NJvisit us at www.online-law-firm.comor email rob@online-law-firm.comDisclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed toestablish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice,and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in yourjurisdiction.

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:16:15 -0600 (MDT), dorski55@webtv.net wrote:
I do believe, we as Americans have to take some responsibility forwhat's going on with our economy. We blame foreign people when we loseour jobs, on the other hand we wont work for less than $20 or $25 anhour, so we can have the TWO BIG SUVs and the BIG HOUSE and enough moneyto buy GAS for the SUVs.Maybe it is time we star looking at a way to live a simpler life withoutall the material trappings that we pay for now.

I have to agree

Another very damaging trend has been the move to two incomes, which is
just serving to delay the inevitable need to live more simply.

Two income couples have been a direct cause of inflation (more money
chasing goods), and lower wages (more workers chasing jobs). It also
has robbed people of time to spend with families and civic duties.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame, but I think it's all...

Richard's fault!

Visit the Sounds of the cul-de-sac at www.richardsfault.com

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:07:13 -0400, "Robert Stumpf"
<rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote:
Funny, then, that we have had such a low inflation rate in recent years asmore women have entered the work force. Funny too, that wages have notdecreased. And silly to think that people are being "robbed" ofsomething...when, in many two bread-winner situations, people may have theoption to work or not.

Affects from women entering the work force mostly ocurred in the 80's
and 90's.

Inflation is probably so low because prices have "maxed out" to the
point where two people working 60 hours a week can now just afford
them.

Nobody wants to admit that prices need lowering, so price cuts are
being called other things sich as 0% financing, rebates, etc. This is
probably a reason for interest rates in general being so low right
now.

Wages have stagnated after a few recent years of increases during the
dot com boom. Overseas competition has been a factor as well. A bigger
problem today is lack of jobs, not lower wages. The best wage in the
world is useless if the job isn't available.

Despite popular belief, women first began entering the work force
because they were urged to do so by the feminist movement, not because
of financial need (of course there are exceptiions). Our free market
economy took advantage of this sudden influx of new wealth by raising
prices and to a more subtle extent, lowering wages. The runup in
housing and auto prices both closely follow the entry of large numbers
of women into the work force. By that time, two incomes were a
necessity, and the social stigma faced by stay-at-home mothers
remained strong (this has let up some in recent years).

While it is often said that women are paid less than men, I believe
that BOTH are now paid less as a result. Someone who has a spouse's
income to rely on may not feel as great a need to seek top dollar, and
will probably not be as motivated to put in the time and effort to
earn it. Many two-incomers have "half baked" careers, including men.

We all have to realize that we are going to have to live more
efficiently to compete in the new world. We have been putting this off
through a series of activities, starting with the move to two incomes,
then longer mortgages and car loans, then lower interest rates, and
now perhaps the last gasp, borrowing equiity out of overvaled homes.

I suspect we will have many more bretheren joining this group in the
coming years.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame, but I think it's all...

Richard's fault!

Visit the Sounds of the cul-de-sac at www.richardsfault.com