What no one has plugged into the conversation yet is how it is nearly
impossible to pay off a credit card that is "past due", with all the
fees and interest that the creditors add.

I had a crisis about a year ago, and were it not for the fact that my
income comes in in chunks, I would have had to file a 7...In other
words, if I was a wage earner, I would have been screwed. The money
would not have come in fast enough to do me any good, and the system
is set up that way on purpose.

What some people (including me once) do not realize is that with a
credit card, YOU BORROW MONEY AT 25%+, dammit. And although that fact
is right there under your nose on the agreement, you don't appreciate
the real power of compound interest until you're screwed over but
good. Not a moral issue, just human nature.

----------
That said, if you get in over your head, file. Don't settle, don't pay
collections agencies (harassment agencies), don't pay debt buyers.
Just file. I did the "semi-honorable" thing, ie settled the accounts.
Looking back, that was dumb. At this point, if I were stupid enough to
want any credit again, it will be seven years. If I had filed, the
black mark would have turned gray in a year or two.

Sorry to hear your struggles .. and I can really relate! I am in a similar
situation with student loans.
I will be paying on them till the day I die. I also, at one time,
considered filing bankruptcy, only to learn that this would not relieve me
from the burden of student loans. If you are not already wealthy, you will
simply not win .. least not till some things are changed.

I will be very surprised if this is not a record year for people filing
bankruptcy. I mean, after all, look at the economical state of our country.
It is frightening!

Pamela Myers
http://www.peaksvsvalleys.com




"Ian Johnson" <guidesinexile@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:57beaa06.0308060649.49b69b79@posting.google.c om... As Congress struggles to agree on the exact wording of a much harsher bankruptcy statute (now commonly referred to as "BARF" even though it hasn't been enacted yet), I would like to propose an alternative. My alternative is simultaneously harsher, more humane and more honest about its true intentions than any language now before Congress. It is likely also somewhat more favorable to creditors than anything Congress is now considering. My alternative is suggested by one passage from the Bible and two passages from the Constitution: "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender." Proverbs 22:7 "The Congress shall have the power. To establish. uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States." U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8, cl. 4. "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIII, Section 1 (emphasis added) Yes, I propose that personal bankruptcy be made once again into a minor criminal offense, treated as being an act of the same kind as a simple theft or an unintentional fraud, as it was at common law. I further propose that the punishment for the crime of bankruptcy be a term of involuntary servitude of the bankrupt to his or her creditors or creditors' committee for a number of months proportional to the amount of his or her debt remaining after the sale of all assets. A bankrupt's family should be eligible for public assistance during the term of his or her involuntary servitude, and the cost of providing that assistance, plus any additional court-awarded child or spousal support, should be figured into the term of servitude. Of course, if the dominant creditor or creditor's committee has no use for the bankrupt's services, the committee should be allowed to sell those services to others for as much as the market will bear. The debtor should be absolutely absolved of all debts after his or her term of servitude is completed. The Constitution requires only that, if Congress establishes a rule for bankruptcies, that rule must be uniform. It does not require Congress to provide discharge after sale of the debtor's assets, and Congress has for some years been gradually extending the list of debts that are non-dischargeable. In recent times, Congress has also been making it increasingly difficult to discharge ordinary consumer debts-which is very much the objective of the most recent bill. But the hidden effect of all this is to impose bondage. Roughly 35 to 40 years ago, the "banking industry" in this country began to actively transform itself into the "credit industry." The difference between the two is this: where the banking industry perceived its role as mostly providing a service to its customers, the credit industry perceives its role as selling a product. The product the credit industry sells is consumer debt. Consumer debt is now very actively sold, through mass mailings (I get at least 5 or 6 per week) offering credit cards, through advertising campaigns urging the public not only to obtain particular credit cards but also to use those cards to purchase consumer goods, and through building EXPECTATIONS into the system nearly everywhere (even doctor's offices, as I am well aware) that not having money for a "needed" purchase is no excuse because one is expected to have and to use a credit card. The credit industry has done a good job of selling us all consumer debt, making us the servants of the credit card companies. At the same time, the federal government has been selling its own versions of debt bondage. When I went through college (and I'll admit I went through way too much of it), it was EXPECTED that I would be able to attend full-time because I'd be able to take federally-guaranteed student LOANS to pay for it. Similarly, when one starts a small business, it is expected that most of the financing will come from a federally-guaranteed loan. Federal loan guarantees are also used for housing for ordinary people. Many years ago, Congress made these federally-guaranteed loans difficult to discharge in bankruptcy, and, over the years, these provisions have been tightened several times, making discharge of these loans nearly impossible. Uniform and efficient remedies have also been created for the collection of these federally-insured debts. All that is really happening on the last few amendments of the Bankruptcy Code is that the sellers of private consumer debt have been demanding, and receiving, greater equality with the federal government and the holders of federally-insured debts. The direction this is all going is, of course, a system in which bankruptcy will only be useful to business debtors. Enrons will be permitted to die in bankruptcy and take their employees' retirement savings with them. K-Marts will be permitted to reorganize and go on with their business, after eliminating employees and paying only a part of their debts. If Bill Gates ever needs to take bankruptcy to "adjust" some of his business debts, he will undoubtedly come out OK. But all types of debt held by ordinary people will be either very difficult or impossible to discharge. Consumer debt, whether federally-insured or not, will become an inescapable servitude once one gets in over his or her head, for whatever reason. All I'm proposing is that we get on with this process that must inevitably occur and that we be honest about what we are doing. Call servitude what it really is, declare it to exist by judicial act in a bankruptcy proceeding, and provide by law how long it shall last. Provide for the bankrupt's family during the period of servitude. Then provide a real discharge when the court's sentence has been fully served. Ian Johnson URL of my resumé: http://www.christian-oneness.org/authors/ ********* Appendix - My personal situation I have made a number of foolish decisions, which have left me securely chained in debt. First, I stayed in college far too long, financing the last few years of the trip with student loans. I did this with the honest expectation that I'd be able to make the full required payments on the loans when I got out with my salary as a lawyer (most of these debts were to finance law school). However, I manifested a mental illness, diagnosed several years later as bipolar disorder, during my last semester in law school. While I finished my law degree-with high distinction, no less- in 1982, I was unable to obtain a license to practice. After the condition had been diagnosed , treated and put into remission for a number of years, in 1992, I applied to take the bar exam but the Kansas Supreme Court rejected this application primarily on the grounds that, though my condition was in long-term remission, it was not permanently "cured" beyond any possible need for future treatment. When I then sought a remedy in Federal court under the Americans With Disabilities Act, that court agreed that the rule the Kansas court had announced to me was that I needed to be "cured," but declined jurisdiction under the "Rooker-Feldman doctrine" on the grounds that the Kansas Supreme Court had not promulgated any formal, written rule on the subsject. (See Johnson v. Kansas Supreme Court, 888 F.Supp. 1073 (D. Kan 1995). All of this, however, did not keep the loans from becoming payable. I had foolishly gambled with other people's money, and had lost the wager. After various deferments and forebearances, all of which incurred interest charges, in 1991 I finally obtained my present job as a paralegal. I now made enough money (although just barely enough) that payment of the loans could no longer be delayed under the student loan regulations. But I also had very large medical expenses for one of my children, incurred while I was unemployed. The combination was more than I could work out. I filed under Chapter 13 of the Bankruptcy Code. For the 4 years I was paying on the Chapter 13 Plan, I could even afford the payroll deduction for health insurance benefits for my family. But then the Chapter 13 Plan was over, and I found that I owed my student loan guarantee agency, the Iowa College Student Aid Commission, the full amount of principal with which I had entered the bankruptcy plus (they claimed, though I have always protested this) all interest accrued while the plan was running. Sizable monthly payments were once again due and payable. Then, within 18 months after my Chapter 13 Plan ended, there occurred a series of THREE separate increases in health insurance premiums under my employer's group plan. After the last of these premium increases, the family coverage portion of the premium (the portion which I paid), was over $750 per month, which was then about half of my take-home pay. We had to drop the family health insurance coverage so that I could keep making the minimum expected payments on my student loans. Things went OK until about two years ago. At that point, medical expenses for two of my children, including about $200 per month in prescription costs for more than a year in addition to the physicians' fees, put things completely over the edge. We didn't have the money to pay for most of the doctor visits or for the drugs, but where children are involved the State lets you know that lack of funds is NO EXCUSE. If you don't qualify for income-based medical subsidy programs, you are firmly EXPECTED to use credit, and we did. However, now that my wife has been diagnosed with a serious but treatable condition, we don't even have credit available to pay the roughly $1400 we need up front. Lack of funds is still NO EXCUSE, so I will just have to be guilty. My student loans and credit cards must be paid on time FIRST. Perhaps Congress will act promptly on my proposal, so that I can become a slave and my family's medical needs can be met. URL to donate to me: http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/ian_j_site2/pride.html

I've always said "how can these companies think it will be easier for
someone to pay their bills at 24% interest then they can at 12%? They
set up people to fail.

Also, where in first poster's discussion is there mention of lenders
that are out and out crooks? They have lied, manipulated information
etc. just to trap people into loans. Why is there so much focus now
on predatory lenders? Because they are corporate crooks; at least
with the Mafia you know what you are getting into. One of them was
found to have 36000 violations of the law in California alone. I've
read stories of poor widows who lost their homes because these crooks
toyed around with applications (even using a dead spouses pension
payments to get her to qualify) and when the REAL payment amount
arrived it was more then her income? This same lender was responsible
for 40% of foreclosures in the Chicago area alone.

What do our wonderful representatives do? Slap them on the wrist with
what to the general public looks like a huge fine, tells them to give
their loan requirements a little tweak but leaves in place the most
damning parts of their loan making process. These companies pour huge
chunks of $$$$ into politicians pockets and look upon it as buying
insurance to continue doing what they do best--fleecing unsuspecting
souls.

These corporate crooks should be in Federal prison, not allowed to go
on making zillion dollars a year.

I get tired of hearing these lenders and credit card companies
bellyaching about the bankruptcy laws and their "losses". What they
should do is get rid of the bad apples in their industry so that the
good, honest companies can operate efficiently and really provide a
service to the consumer. They need to boot out the crooks in their
midst first before blaming the public.


fahe@fake.com (Steve Cothran) wrote in message news:<3f314da2.3145057@news.dtccom.net>... What no one has plugged into the conversation yet is how it is nearly impossible to pay off a credit card that is "past due", with all the fees and interest that the creditors add. I had a crisis about a year ago, and were it not for the fact that my income comes in in chunks, I would have had to file a 7...In other words, if I was a wage earner, I would have been screwed. The money would not have come in fast enough to do me any good, and the system is set up that way on purpose. What some people (including me once) do not realize is that with a credit card, YOU BORROW MONEY AT 25%+, dammit. And although that fact is right there under your nose on the agreement, you don't appreciate the real power of compound interest until you're screwed over but good. Not a moral issue, just human nature. ---------- That said, if you get in over your head, file. Don't settle, don't pay collections agencies (harassment agencies), don't pay debt buyers. Just file. I did the "semi-honorable" thing, ie settled the accounts. Looking back, that was dumb. At this point, if I were stupid enough to want any credit again, it will be seven years. If I had filed, the black mark would have turned gray in a year or two.

What this poster doesn't notice is that, in my original posting, I
said my largest creditor (by far) is a student loan. While the
various Federal circuits have somewhat differing rules about when a
debtor can get relief from accrual of student loan INTEREST during the
pendency of a bankruptcy, the Bankruptcy Code itself (11 U.S.C. sec.
523(a)(8)) makes the principal, at least, nondischargeable unless the
debtor can show "undue hardship." Every court I know of now construes
the "undue hardship" language as requiring something very close to a
showing of long-term, total disability. If there is ANY reasonable
possibility that the debtor may someday be able to return to work,
even as a minimum-wage laborer, and make any payments on the loan, the
loan will not be discharged.

So, while I appreciate the advice, I don't see that filing bankruptcy
would help me, especially since it would bring $17,000 in interest
accrued during my 1991 Chapter 13 proceeding back on my head.

Incidentally, my posting has generated so many comments that I have
separated my cynical, tongue-in-cheek proposal from the information
on my personal situation and posted them both on the web:

My Proposal: http://www.geocities.com/pessimists13/BARF.html

My personal info: http://www.geocities.com/pessimists13/give.html





fahe@fake.com (Steve Cothran) wrote in message news:<3f314da2.3145057@news.dtccom.net>... What no one has plugged into the conversation yet is how it is nearly impossible to pay off a credit card that is "past due", with all the fees and interest that the creditors add. I had a crisis about a year ago, and were it not for the fact that my income comes in in chunks, I would have had to file a 7...In other words, if I was a wage earner, I would have been screwed. The money would not have come in fast enough to do me any good, and the system is set up that way on purpose. What some people (including me once) do not realize is that with a credit card, YOU BORROW MONEY AT 25%+, dammit. And although that fact is right there under your nose on the agreement, you don't appreciate the real power of compound interest until you're screwed over but good. Not a moral issue, just human nature. ---------- That said, if you get in over your head, file. Don't settle, don't pay collections agencies (harassment agencies), don't pay debt buyers. Just file. I did the "semi-honorable" thing, ie settled the accounts. Looking back, that was dumb. At this point, if I were stupid enough to want any credit again, it will be seven years. If I had filed, the black mark would have turned gray in a year or two.

Ian:

One thing I've suggested to people with impossible student loan
issues is to file a Chapter 13. You make the required minimum
payments for 5 years, and then file a new Chapter 13, again with
the minimum payments.

None of the lending authorities do *anything* (with the possible
exception of filing a Proof of Claim [though I've had to file
them on behalf of the lending authority in a number of cases]),
and you get 5 years of relief at minimal fiscal cost.

There are certainly downsides to this course of action, and it
may not be doable if/when BARF passes, but if someone is
absolutely snowed under, it does offer a short-term fix.

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts
and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************


"Ian Johnson" <guidesinexile@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:57beaa06.0308140940.4c86726d@posting.google.c om... What this poster doesn't notice is that, in my original
posting, I said my largest creditor (by far) is a student loan. While the various Federal circuits have somewhat differing rules about
when a debtor can get relief from accrual of student loan INTEREST
during the pendency of a bankruptcy, the Bankruptcy Code itself (11 U.S.C.
sec. 523(a)(8)) makes the principal, at least, nondischargeable
unless the debtor can show "undue hardship." Every court I know of now
construes the "undue hardship" language as requiring something very close
to a showing of long-term, total disability. If there is ANY
reasonable possibility that the debtor may someday be able to return to
work, even as a minimum-wage laborer, and make any payments on the
loan, the loan will not be discharged. So, while I appreciate the advice, I don't see that filing
bankruptcy would help me, especially since it would bring $17,000 in
interest accrued during my 1991 Chapter 13 proceeding back on my head. Incidentally, my posting has generated so many comments that I
have separated my cynical, tongue-in-cheek proposal from the
information on my personal situation and posted them both on the web: My Proposal: http://www.geocities.com/pessimists13/BARF.html My personal info:
http://www.geocities.com/pessimists13/give.html fahe@fake.com (Steve Cothran) wrote in message
news:<3f314da2.3145057@news.dtccom.net>... What no one has plugged into the conversation yet is how it
is nearly impossible to pay off a credit card that is "past due", with
all the fees and interest that the creditors add. I had a crisis about a year ago, and were it not for the fact
that my income comes in in chunks, I would have had to file a 7...In
other words, if I was a wage earner, I would have been screwed. The
money would not have come in fast enough to do me any good, and the
system is set up that way on purpose. What some people (including me once) do not realize is that
with a credit card, YOU BORROW MONEY AT 25%+, dammit. And although
that fact is right there under your nose on the agreement, you don't
appreciate the real power of compound interest until you're screwed over
but good. Not a moral issue, just human nature. ---------- That said, if you get in over your head, file. Don't settle,
don't pay collections agencies (harassment agencies), don't pay debt
buyers. Just file. I did the "semi-honorable" thing, ie settled the
accounts. Looking back, that was dumb. At this point, if I were stupid
enough to want any credit again, it will be seven years. If I had
filed, the black mark would have turned gray in a year or two.