You realize, of course, that this is complete and total BS,
showing a remarkable lack of knowledge of law, bankruptcy, and
human behavior (not to mention compassion).

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts
and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************

I agree, he does make a few interesting points, but the solutions he
proposes have very little to do with reality.

I think the bankruptcy system we have now is a good one IF we live in a
country where people commonly exercise a reasonable sense of maturity and
responsibility...then bankruptcy is a perfectly good method of helping those
who get in financial trouble through circumstances beyond their control.

If on the other hand, we lived in a country where too many people act
immature and irresponsible, then our current system really doesn't make
complete sense. It is possible that the average sense of self-reliance on
our citizens 'aint what it used to be...and therefore, we might have to
rethink things, whether we like it or not. Laws should be drawn to
encourage an increase in personal responsibility and self-reliance, because
ultimately you can't have liberty without them. So I don't some reasonable
bankruptcy reform proposals are all out of order.



--



*****

Rob Stumpf, Esq.

Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law
Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ

visit us at www.online-law-firm.com
or email rob@online-law-firm.com


Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to
establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice,
and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your
jurisdiction.
"BoatMan" <BoatMan0609@aol.com> wrote in message
news:lz9Ya.1374823$Ho4.9645620@news.easynews.com.. . "Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message news:k6ScnRZYMNThg6yiU-KYvg@comcast.com... You realize, of course, that this is complete and total BS, showing a remarkable lack of knowledge of law, bankruptcy, and human behavior (not to mention compassion). did you read the whole post ? he makes a few interesting points .... Brett ************************************************** *************** * Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy * * * * BRETT WEISS, P.C. * * Attorneys at Law * * Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars * * lawyer@erols.com * * http://www.erols.com/lawyer * * * * Small Business Estates & Estate Planning * ************************************************** *************** The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation. ************************************************** ***************

No, I gave up after he talked about bankruptcy being common law
theft or fraud (which is wrong), and proposed enslaving debtors.
On reading through the entire post, it appears that this proposal
was tongue in cheek and a reference to the actual impact of BARF
making it virtually impossible for many to discharge any debt, as
well as the problems he faced from high student loan payments
(I'd suggest he contact SallieMae to see if the loans can be
consolidated or the payments lowered) and the expense of health
insurance (with which I fully understand).

I apologize to the original poster for my comments, and I
sympathize with the situation he found himself in.

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts
and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************


"BoatMan" <BoatMan0609@aol.com> wrote in message
news:lz9Ya.1374823$Ho4.9645620@news.easynews.com.. . "Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message news:k6ScnRZYMNThg6yiU-KYvg@comcast.com... You realize, of course, that this is complete and total BS, showing a remarkable lack of knowledge of law, bankruptcy,
and human behavior (not to mention compassion). did you read the whole post ? he makes a few interesting
points ....

It's a two way street--not only do individuals need to act
responsiby, do so those making loans.

When I see a client with a $35,000 annual income and $30,000 in
debt getting pre-approved credit cards with $15,000 lines of
credit, this is corporate irresponsibility of the highest order.
Why is there no discussion of this issue? Why are only debtors in
bankruptcy targeted? If it's just a "business decision" for the
corporation to make such a loan, why should it not just be a
business decision for the debtor to file for bankruptcy?

It's a two-way street. And credit card companies are making
record profits, in the *billions* of dollars, notwithstanding
bankruptcy filings being up. Doesn't this mean that the market is
working as it should? Why do we need massive changes to guarantee
these companies to make even *more* money?

--
Brett

************************************************** ***************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
************************************************** ***************

The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts
and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************


"Robert Stumpf" <rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote in message
news:bgrf99$s3aes$1@ID-200874.news.uni-berlin.de... I agree, he does make a few interesting points, but the
solutions he proposes have very little to do with reality. I think the bankruptcy system we have now is a good one IF we
live in a country where people commonly exercise a reasonable sense of
maturity and responsibility...then bankruptcy is a perfectly good method of
helping those who get in financial trouble through circumstances beyond their
control. If on the other hand, we lived in a country where too many
people act immature and irresponsible, then our current system really
doesn't make complete sense. It is possible that the average sense of
self-reliance on our citizens 'aint what it used to be...and therefore, we might
have to rethink things, whether we like it or not. Laws should be
drawn to encourage an increase in personal responsibility and
self-reliance, because ultimately you can't have liberty without them. So I don't
some reasonable bankruptcy reform proposals are all out of order. -- ***** Rob Stumpf, Esq. Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ visit us at www.online-law-firm.com or email rob@online-law-firm.com Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be
construed to establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not
legal advice, and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney
in your jurisdiction. "BoatMan" <BoatMan0609@aol.com> wrote in message news:lz9Ya.1374823$Ho4.9645620@news.easynews.com.. . "Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message news:k6ScnRZYMNThg6yiU-KYvg@comcast.com... You realize, of course, that this is complete and total BS, showing a remarkable lack of knowledge of law, bankruptcy,
and human behavior (not to mention compassion). did you read the whole post ? he makes a few interesting
points .... Brett
************************************************** *************** * Personal Injury/Malpractice
Bankruptcy * *
* * BRETT WEISS, P.C.
* * Attorneys at Law
* * Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars
* * lawyer@erols.com
* * http://www.erols.com/lawyer
* *
* * Small Business Estates & Estate
Planning *
************************************************** *************** The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes
only. It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat
it as such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the
facts and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************

In most any credit transaction, it is the lender, not the borrower, who is
in the best position to know if the loan or credit extension is right for
that particular person. There are many good reasons why people may
temporarily over-extend themselves, and only the borrower can know this. At
the end of the day, the system depends on responsible borrowers who can make
these intelligent decisions, not the occasional cry-baby who maxes
everything out and then blames everyone else for his or her trouble. The
great majority of my clients are not people that are trying to use the
system in this way, but it still may happen too often in general.

I personally don't care how much profit banks make, unless they are engaging
in some forme of acute rip-off. If Citibank makes $58 billion or $75
billion on their credit card operations is of no consequence to me, and it
might even be a good sign, perhaps that the economy is improving or
something. If a bankruptcy reform package has the effect of raising bank
profits, I say "so what" IF it also has the effect of encouraging greater
personal reponsibility and has other positive features.

The BARF, as it is called, is indeed a pile of crap, but that should not be
to say that NO reform package wouldn't be a good idea.
--



*****

Rob Stumpf, Esq.

Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law
Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ

visit us at www.online-law-firm.com
or email rob@online-law-firm.com


Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to
establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice,
and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your
jurisdiction.
"Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message
news:TY2dnUxQR6L2yqyiXTWJhw@comcast.com... It's a two way street--not only do individuals need to act responsiby, do so those making loans. When I see a client with a $35,000 annual income and $30,000 in debt getting pre-approved credit cards with $15,000 lines of credit, this is corporate irresponsibility of the highest order. Why is there no discussion of this issue? Why are only debtors in bankruptcy targeted? If it's just a "business decision" for the corporation to make such a loan, why should it not just be a business decision for the debtor to file for bankruptcy? It's a two-way street. And credit card companies are making record profits, in the *billions* of dollars, notwithstanding bankruptcy filings being up. Doesn't this mean that the market is working as it should? Why do we need massive changes to guarantee these companies to make even *more* money? -- Brett ************************************************** *************** * Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy * * * * BRETT WEISS, P.C. * * Attorneys at Law * * Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars * * lawyer@erols.com * * http://www.erols.com/lawyer * * * * Small Business Estates & Estate Planning * ************************************************** *************** The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation. ************************************************** *************** "Robert Stumpf" <rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote in message news:bgrf99$s3aes$1@ID-200874.news.uni-berlin.de... I agree, he does make a few interesting points, but the solutions he proposes have very little to do with reality. I think the bankruptcy system we have now is a good one IF we live in a country where people commonly exercise a reasonable sense of maturity and responsibility...then bankruptcy is a perfectly good method of helping those who get in financial trouble through circumstances beyond their control. If on the other hand, we lived in a country where too many people act immature and irresponsible, then our current system really doesn't make complete sense. It is possible that the average sense of self-reliance on our citizens 'aint what it used to be...and therefore, we might have to rethink things, whether we like it or not. Laws should be drawn to encourage an increase in personal responsibility and self-reliance, because ultimately you can't have liberty without them. So I don't some reasonable bankruptcy reform proposals are all out of order. -- ***** Rob Stumpf, Esq. Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ visit us at www.online-law-firm.com or email rob@online-law-firm.com Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice, and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your jurisdiction. "BoatMan" <BoatMan0609@aol.com> wrote in message news:lz9Ya.1374823$Ho4.9645620@news.easynews.com.. . "Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message news:k6ScnRZYMNThg6yiU-KYvg@comcast.com... > You realize, of course, that this is complete and total BS, > showing a remarkable lack of knowledge of law, bankruptcy, and > human behavior (not to mention compassion). did you read the whole post ? he makes a few interesting points .... > Brett > > ************************************************** *************** > * Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy * > * * > * BRETT WEISS, P.C. * > * Attorneys at Law * > * Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars * > * lawyer@erols.com * > * http://www.erols.com/lawyer * > * * > * Small Business Estates & Estate Planning * > ************************************************** *************** > > The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. > It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as > such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer > familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts > and the law applicable to your situation. > ************************************************** *************** > >

I have just a few comments to make about various posts in this thread
responding to my "proposal:"

1. Yes, my proposal was just about as "tongue-in-cheek" as it could
be. The subject line ("a humanely cynical proposal") should have been
a giveaway. The point of it is that debt really is bondage. It is
also being actively sold as a product now, in an entirely
unprecedented way, and the social and even governmental pressures to
meet "needs" (some of them very real) *immediately* by getting into
debt are greater than they have ever been. Under these circumstances,
reform IS needed, but BARF "reforms" the system in exactly the *wrong*
direction, by further protecting the power of the sellers of debt over
the rest of us.

2. It is true that modern bankruptcy law does not treat insolvency as
a form of theft or fraud. However, the common law, and here I'm
talking about the roots of American law in 18th Century (and earlier)
English law, certainly did. English courts during the American
colonial period routinely sold insolvent debtors into indentured
servitude, the term generally being limited to 7 years, to raise money
to pay their creditors. Many of the original colonists in the
American colonies came here involuntarily, as indentured servants of
other colonists (or of the proprietors of the proprietary colonies).
Colonial and later state laws in many states carried over this idea,
which really wasn't totally eliminated from American law until the
Bankruptcy Act of 1898.

3. I have done all that is possible to consolidate my student loans
and the payments and interest rate have been reduced as far as the
Iowa College Aid Commission is allowed to reduce them under Federal
regulations, given that under those regulations they went into
"default" when I filed my Chapter 13 in 1991. (This really does
severely limit what can be done.) But thanks for the suggestion.

4. Yes, I am raising donations. The URL is
http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/ian_j_site2/pride.html
if any of you are interested.











"Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message news:<G8CdnSrb3evk36yiU-KYvA@comcast.com>... No, I gave up after he talked about bankruptcy being common law theft or fraud (which is wrong), and proposed enslaving debtors. On reading through the entire post, it appears that this proposal was tongue in cheek and a reference to the actual impact of BARF making it virtually impossible for many to discharge any debt, as well as the problems he faced from high student loan payments (I'd suggest he contact SallieMae to see if the loans can be consolidated or the payments lowered) and the expense of health insurance (with which I fully understand). I apologize to the original poster for my comments, and I sympathize with the situation he found himself in. -- Brett ************************************************** *************** * Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy * * * * BRETT WEISS, P.C. * * Attorneys at Law * * Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars * * lawyer@erols.com * * http://www.erols.com/lawyer * * * * Small Business Estates & Estate Planning * ************************************************** *************** The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation. ************************************************** *************** "BoatMan" <BoatMan0609@aol.com> wrote in message news:lz9Ya.1374823$Ho4.9645620@news.easynews.com.. . "Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message news:k6ScnRZYMNThg6yiU-KYvg@comcast.com... You realize, of course, that this is complete and total BS, showing a remarkable lack of knowledge of law, bankruptcy, and human behavior (not to mention compassion). did you read the whole post ? he makes a few interesting points ....

guidesinexile@yahoo.com (Ian Johnson) wrote in message
a reference to the actual impact of BARF
making it virtually impossible for many to discharge any debt

What debts under what circumstances will be impossible to discharge
under the proposed bankruptcy law, compared to the current law? From
what I've read, and probably incompletely understood, it seems it will
still be possible to discharge under 7 if you have huge debts and no
appreciable income and poor prospects for any soon. The main
differences for someone in such a situation appear to be mandatory
credit counseling, more stringent examination of the case by the
trustee, and a much higher fee for a bankruptcy attorney.

I'm very interested in this because things aren't looking too good
from here financially, but I cannot in good conscience file for br now
because there is some possibility I can get work soon and I'm still
hanging on, barely. So, if worst-case happens and I end up br, it
will be almost certainly under the new legislation.

On 8 Aug 2003 05:04:34 -0700, torgo7@comcast.net (Sharon) wrote:
Thank you, Mr. Weiss. You may remember my story of the terriblemortgage companies we dealt with and who put us in the position we aretoday. They receive a slap on the wrist and are allowed to go on justas before with maybe a few alterations. Pouring ****** into Congressto assure that these "gentlemen's agreements" are made and the victimscan go to *** are common.Last year the CC companies made trillions in profits. They cry allthe way to the bank--whoops! They are the bank.A lot of bankruptcy lawyers would agree with Mr. Weiss because theydeal with consumers who have suffered at the hands of these lendersand have come to realize how sleazy they can be. There are goodlenders out there, and as I've said, the industry should itself cleanout its own bad apples. It will not only help consumers but reducethe harmful effects from bad debts, bankruptcies etc.

I think you have misread Mr. Weiss. He did not say that anyone was
"sleazy" or that anyone was a "victim." He's just saying there's more
than one point of view for Congress to consider.


"Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message news:<TY2dnUxQR6L2yqyiXTWJhw@comcast.com>... It's a two way street--not only do individuals need to act responsiby, do so those making loans. When I see a client with a $35,000 annual income and $30,000 in debt getting pre-approved credit cards with $15,000 lines of credit, this is corporate irresponsibility of the highest order. Why is there no discussion of this issue? Why are only debtors in bankruptcy targeted? If it's just a "business decision" for the corporation to make such a loan, why should it not just be a business decision for the debtor to file for bankruptcy? It's a two-way street. And credit card companies are making record profits, in the *billions* of dollars, notwithstanding bankruptcy filings being up. Doesn't this mean that the market is working as it should? Why do we need massive changes to guarantee these companies to make even *more* money? -- Brett ************************************************** *************** * Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy * * * * BRETT WEISS, P.C. * * Attorneys at Law * * Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars * * lawyer@erols.com * * http://www.erols.com/lawyer * * * * Small Business Estates & Estate Planning * ************************************************** *************** The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation. ************************************************** *************** "Robert Stumpf" <rob@online-law-firm.com> wrote in message news:bgrf99$s3aes$1@ID-200874.news.uni-berlin.de... I agree, he does make a few interesting points, but the solutions he proposes have very little to do with reality. I think the bankruptcy system we have now is a good one IF we live in a country where people commonly exercise a reasonable sense of maturity and responsibility...then bankruptcy is a perfectly good method of helping those who get in financial trouble through circumstances beyond their control. If on the other hand, we lived in a country where too many people act immature and irresponsible, then our current system really doesn't make complete sense. It is possible that the average sense of self-reliance on our citizens 'aint what it used to be...and therefore, we might have to rethink things, whether we like it or not. Laws should be drawn to encourage an increase in personal responsibility and self-reliance, because ultimately you can't have liberty without them. So I don't some reasonable bankruptcy reform proposals are all out of order. -- ***** Rob Stumpf, Esq. Stumpf and Ginter, Attorneys at Law Practicing Bankruptcy in NY and NJ visit us at www.online-law-firm.com or email rob@online-law-firm.com Disclaimer: No email or newsgroup communication is to be construed to establish any sort of an attorney-client relationship, is not legal advice, and is not a replacement for the advice of a competent attorney in your jurisdiction. "BoatMan" <BoatMan0609@aol.com> wrote in message news:lz9Ya.1374823$Ho4.9645620@news.easynews.com.. . > > "Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message > news:k6ScnRZYMNThg6yiU-KYvg@comcast.com... > > > You realize, of course, that this is complete and total BS, > > showing a remarkable lack of knowledge of law, bankruptcy, and > > human behavior (not to mention compassion). > > did you read the whole post ? he makes a few interesting points .... > > > > Brett > > > > ************************************************** *************** > > * Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy * > > * * > > * BRETT WEISS, P.C. * > > * Attorneys at Law * > > * Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars * > > * lawyer@erols.com * > > * http://www.erols.com/lawyer * > > * * > > * Small Business Estates & Estate Planning * > > ************************************************** *************** > > > > The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. > > It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as > > such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer > > familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the facts > > and the law applicable to your situation. > > ************************************************** *************** > > > > > >


- Jon Beaver

"Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote in message
news:<TY2dnUxQR6L2yqyiXTWJhw@comcast.com>...
It's a two-way street. And credit card companies are making record profits, in the *billions* of dollars, notwithstanding bankruptcy filings being up. Doesn't this mean that the market is working as it should? Why do we need massive changes to guarantee these companies to make even *more* money?

we don't ... and I still believe that if they get what they want in
bankruptcy reform the net effect will be to make people more risk averse to
borrowing and ultimately they will make LESS money ... current policy is
good for lendors; there's a peculiar moralism being propogated by the
immoral ...