This is a long story...so for those of you who read and contribute...thank you..

I live in NY and i've been with my gfriend for ~2 years and just recently got engaged...She has a 6 yr old daughter.. custody for the girl has never been brought before the court..from the beginning of our relationship i've let her know my intentions of starting an insurance agency down in NC and she has always said that she would want to come with me...

She just went to a lawyer a few weeks ago and the lawyer told her that she's not allowed to leave the state with out a court order...And i've heard that you can't get this order unless you can prove to the court how this will benefit the child..

The dad has been in the girls life her whole life..He lived with my gfriend until the girl was 2..then they moved out because he was abusive with my gfriend..He now sees her everyother weekend and one day on the off weekend..

The dad also still lives in his moms house (27 years old i think)... when the girl comes over she sleeps on a couch...Every other night she's not there, he's calling from a bar to say goodnight...He hasn't owned a car in years and he's been fired from every job that he's had (going 6 months strong with current employer)... to top it off it just came to our attention that he might be using cocaine on regular occasions...

Since i've come into the picture he's been very concerned about me...the first time i "met" him was at a grocery store...the three of us were shopping, he walked over to us...picked the girl out of the cart and said to my gfriend "I thought we talked about you bringing him around her" ( i guess he didn't like me...never met me but didn't like me) My gfriend tried to explain but he put his hand up like he was going to slap her...then stormed out of the store with the little girl...I wanted to smash a bottle of pickles over his head, but he was carrying the little girl the whole time...

Anyway since then he's accepted me in the picture...we made up but i still don't like him..

With this in mind...what would be the best/easiest/affordible way to get full custody and be able to make any life changing decisions without having to deal with this guy? He is difficult to work with and over and over again he has used his daughter as a means to try and control my gfriend..He still threatens her and she's told me that if she files for custody she will be scared for her life...

I want to live my life as best as possible without making any exceptions for this woman-slapping scumbag. so please give any advice you can...thankyou

The courts in New York have become more receptive to the idea of the custodial parent moving out of state, but each case is reviewed individually by the court on its merits, with the prime consideration being the well being and benefit to be children. Generally, the courts are reluctant to allow one parent to take the children away and thus interfere with the ability of the remaining parent to visit and develop a strong relationship with the children. You can not simply take the children and run to a different state without first getting court approval.

This is a long story...so for those of you who read and contribute...thank you..

I live in NY and i've been with my gfriend for ~2 years and just recently got engaged...She has a 6 yr old daughter.. custody for the girl has never been brought before the court..from the beginning of our relationship i've let her know my intentions of starting an insurance agency down in NC and she has always said that she would want to come with me...

She just went to a lawyer a few weeks ago and the lawyer told her that she's not allowed to leave the state with out a court order...And i've heard that you can't get this order unless you can prove to the court how this will benefit the child..

The dad has been in the girls life her whole life..He lived with my gfriend until the girl was 2..then they moved out because he was abusive with my gfriend..He now sees her everyother weekend and one day on the off weekend..

The dad also still lives in his moms house (27 years old i think)... when the girl comes over she sleeps on a couch...Every other night she's not there, he's calling from a bar to say goodnight...He hasn't owned a car in years and he's been fired from every job that he's had (going 6 months strong with current employer)... to top it off it just came to our attention that he might be using cocaine on regular occasions...

Since i've come into the picture he's been very concerned about me...the first time i "met" him was at a grocery store...the three of us were shopping, he walked over to us...picked the girl out of the cart and said to my gfriend "I thought we talked about you bringing him around her" ( i guess he didn't like me...never met me but didn't like me) My gfriend tried to explain but he put his hand up like he was going to slap her...then stormed out of the store with the little girl...I wanted to smash a bottle of pickles over his head, but he was carrying the little girl the whole time...

Anyway since then he's accepted me in the picture...we made up but i still don't like him..

With this in mind...what would be the best/easiest/affordible way to get full custody and be able to make any life changing decisions without having to deal with this guy? He is difficult to work with and over and over again he has used his daughter as a means to try and control my gfriend..He still threatens her and she's told me that if she files for custody she will be scared for her life...

I want to live my life as best as possible without making any exceptions for this woman-slapping scumbag. so please give any advice you can...thankyou
The father is an important part of the child's life and is very involved in visitation. So, it is very doubtful that a Judge will allow your GF to move her daughter out of state. Your girlfriend can legally move anywhere she wants, she may not be able to take her daughter with her is all.

The last sentence of your post is alarming. I don't want to sound mean, but the reality is that you have chosen to be with a woman who has a child, that child's father has legal rights and will be in your life for as long as you remain with the mother. You cannot change that reality so you might want to either rethink your choice of a mate, or just accept the realities and learn to live with it.
Xena :)

I aggree with Xena, you have made a choice to be in this situation and cannot just run away. The father does have regular visitation and this is not something you can just take away from the child even if you do not see it as be fit and don't you think the child wants to see her father, even if you don't like him she loves him. Children aren't going to base love on the fact of if you have a car or a house, there is a biological bond there and if broken it could hurt the child and the child's relationship with you and your girlfriend.

I tend to agree with all the other posters, except I'm not against moving away from the non-custodial parent as long as some sort of relationship can still be maintained. I think a stable environment that can be created with a two parent home the majority of the time (like a parent and step-parent living in the home with the child) is more important sometimes but that's just my opinion.

You said that custody has never been brought before the court. Does this mean no-one has legal custody? Were they married, if so was there a divorce decree? If there is no custody established how did they determine visitation and child support? I'd like to hear those answers first.

Not exactly the support i was looking for here...love it or hate it, i understand that i need to get court approval to liberate myself and gf...i'm trying to figure out how to go about doing it...

Xena, i also understand that this girl loves her daddy and certainly appreciates the good times that she has with him...but she's 6 and she doesn't yet know the person he is yet...He's been arrested a few times all on account for being violent...he used to beat-on-her-mom...she is scared to disappoint him..ie a few weeks ago she had an accident in her pants while over at his house...she didn't tell her dad or her grandmother...just stuffed her underpants way down in a linen basket...but as soon as she got home she had no problem telling us...gotta ask yourself why??

Another mini story, happened last weekend..it was his weekend to have her and it was sat. afternoon and he was sleeping the afternoon away because he was tired from his job. we decided to go get her and take her and her cousin ice skating, then they wanted to go over to her cousins house..so we left her there...Later when she decided she wanted to go home she called her dad at the bar (yeah she knows that #) and asked him to pick her up...his response.."sorry baby i can't come get you i'm drinking" tells a 6 yr old he's drinking.....

Is being in this girls life really a benefit???
Come on...help me out here...

And ncmaureen..of course the girl wants to see her father...And i know that a child is not going to base love on intangible things...however, this job...by the time i'm thirty..i will probably be bringing in 6 figs...which would be enough to support a wife and her child...and additional children (her future brothers or sisters)....Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe the number one reason for couples to fight/break up is problems with finances...I know money doesn't fix everything...but it is a huge issue...I don't want this job for luxuries and fancy cars..i want it for peace of mind...that i will be able to pay all bills (including college)...This job also provides the ability to work for myself...which means if i need a day or evening off to go to a ball game i can take it...My boss now has the job i want...he can come and go as he pleases and for that reason, he has never missed any of his kids games or events...

Lets take one more look at responsibility issues again....This man, instead of saving for a car, or to move out of moms house, or to save for his only daughters education, decides to spend ALL of his money on booze drugs and gambling...IS IT A GOOD IDEA TO BRING A GIRL UP IN THIS ENVIRONMENT???

Please help me understand how to approach the law to be able to provide a better life for this girl...albeit, sans dad..

shedo...they were never married.. His name is on the birth certificate...the only thing that has been brought before any authority was child support...Visitation has only been mutually agreed..

You would think that bringing to the father all the positives of this move ... and promising continued visitations would be enough to convince the father...but he is stubborn..and like i mentioned before, he uses his child to try and control his ex that he used to be able to control with intimidation...

Not exactly the support i was looking for here...love it or hate it, i understand that i need to get court approval to liberate myself and gf...i'm trying to figure out how to go about doing it...

Xena, i also understand that this girl loves her daddy and certainly appreciates the good times that she has with him...but she's 6 and she doesn't yet know the person he is yet...He's been arrested a few times all on account for being violent...he used to beat-on-her-mom...she is scared to disappoint him..ie a few weeks ago she had an accident in her pants while over at his house...she didn't tell her dad or her grandmother...just stuffed her underpants way down in a linen basket...but as soon as she got home she had no problem telling us...gotta ask yourself why??

Another mini story, happened last weekend..it was his weekend to have her and it was sat. afternoon and he was sleeping the afternoon away because he was tired from his job. we decided to go get her and take her and her cousin ice skating, then they wanted to go over to her cousins house..so we left her there...Later when she decided she wanted to go home she called her dad at the bar (yeah she knows that #) and asked him to pick her up...his response.."sorry baby i can't come get you i'm drinking" tells a 6 yr old he's drinking.....

Is being in this girls life really a benefit???
Come on...help me out here...

And ncmaureen..of course the girl wants to see her father...And i know that a child is not going to base love on intangible things...however, this job...by the time i'm thirty..i will probably be bringing in 6 figs...which would be enough to support a wife and her child...and additional children (her future brothers or sisters)....Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe the number one reason for couples to fight/break up is problems with finances...I know money doesn't fix everything...but it is a huge issue...I don't want this job for luxuries and fancy cars..i want it for peace of mind...that i will be able to pay all bills (including college)...This job also provides the ability to work for myself...which means if i need a day or evening off to go to a ball game i can take it...My boss now has the job i want...he can come and go as he pleases and for that reason, he has never missed any of his kids games or events...

Lets take one more look at responsibility issues again....This man, instead of saving for a car, or to move out of moms house, or to save for his only daughters education, decides to spend ALL of his money on booze drugs and gambling...IS IT A GOOD IDEA TO BRING A GIRL UP IN THIS ENVIRONMENT???

Please help me understand how to approach the law to be able to provide a better life for this girl...albeit, sans dad..

Maybe you didn't see my post. While I see the point of the other posters, I'm actually in support of what you are trying to do. I think a bio-father's role in a childs life is extremely important, but not more important than the child having a two-parent home with stability. I think a long-distance relationship with a bio-father and a consistent homelife with two loving parents (mom and step-dad) is in the best interest of the child in a lot of situations (one like yours).

But I had some questions. You said that custody has never been brought before the court. Does this mean no-one has legal custody? Were they married, if so was there a divorce decree? If there is no custody established how did they determine visitation and child support?

I agree that the environment at the fathers house is one of being irresponsible and beleive it or not the child will figure out on her own that her father is not a good role model in her life. But SHE has to figure that out. Moving away will restrict the time they get to spend together unless you buy the tickets for her to fly to see her dad every other weekend because courts usually making the parent who leaves provide transportation.

I understand you want this job for peace of mind and have been put in a situation where you can't have that but that is a risk you take with dating someone who has a child with another father. There is always gonna be that problem of having restrictions on what you can do. My husband had to deal with the same thing (still is) and I know it is hard because it seems like you care about the welfare of this child and can't do anything about it.

There really seems to be no right answer when it comes to mind that this child is in a bad environment at her dad's and but if you have no proof that her dad is violent or neglecting her then you have no case.

is there a custody order????? :D

i am pretty sure there is not...

i am pretty sure there is not...

Pretty sure? That's something that is hard to miss or forget about. Is there a divorce decree? Were they ever married? If so, custody would have been established. These are questions you need to ask her before you can really decide where to go from here. You need to know if there is an existing custody order or not.

They were never married..and for the sake of arguement go with there was never a custody decree...

They were never married..and for the sake of arguement go with there was never a custody decree...

Okay, but it's not for the sake of arguement, there are different factors depending on what the case facts are.

If there was never a custody order, then there is likely also no child support order and no visitation order. However, you've stated that she has been liberal with visitation.

Maybe someone with more knowledge of NY laws can post. But likely if she wants to move, she can anytime she wants to based on the assumption that custody was never established and they were never married, therefore he legally doesn't have any rights to the child. If he wanted to prevent her from moving out of state, he would have to prove he is the father, establish custody and establish visitation (which would also warrant a child support order). If she has documentation (which if she doesn't she certainly should start keeping a journal) of his damaging behavior and he does not have suitable living arrangements for the child (her sleeping on the couch), it is unlikely that he will win a custody battle if one is taken to court.

I can't believe some of the advice or rather criticsm that was given to brouxman. This is obviously someone who cares very deeply for both the child and the mother, and is not trying to run away but simply create a better more stable life for everyone involved.

The "father" in question seems completely unfit. I don't care how involved he is with his daughter. An abusive, unstable, alcoholic with a drug problem is NOT someone that should be allowed around a child. No matter how much he loves her or she loves him. Children love parents that beat them, should we just leave them and let them find out on their own? What happens if she witnesses him abuse another woman, she'll grow up to think its okay for men to treat her that way. What happens if she witnesses his substance abuse problems, she will be twice as likely to have them herself. As parents our prupose is to look out for our children, not to simply let them see through experience the hardest parts of life. Any human can create a child, that does not make them fit to raise them. Yes, this child undoubtedly loves her father.. but how long until his lifestyle changes her permanetly. Are u all forgetting the power our parents lifesyle has on our own decisions as adults?

It sounds like you want to move because you see a better life in NC not because u are running away. It sounds like the only shot this child has at a normal, healthy life is to get away from this parent at least until this man straightens up. I'm completely unaware legally of what is possible but I think your intentions are right and I would fight with everything that I had legally to limit this mans exposure to what is now a sweet innocent child.

With this in mind...what would be the best/easiest/affordible way to get full custody and be able to make any life changing decisions without having to deal with this guy? He is difficult to work with and over and over again he has used his daughter as a means to try and control my gfriend..He still threatens her and she's told me that if she files for custody she will be scared for her life...



To answer your first question (now assuming there is no exsiting court order), she would need to get an attorney to first file a petition to establish custody. His threats are empty knowing that he lives with his parents and doesn't have suitable living conditions for the daughter.

Perhaps Xena or someone can tell you if filing in one state versus another (NC or NY) will help or hinder the custody and moving dilema.

Having experienced NC courts, it would most likely be a good outcome in NC. The only problem with filing through NC is going to be the matter of residency. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the mother would have to have established residency for at least 6 months.

Yes it is 6 months.

jax78 I am in no way saying that the father is providing a good environment with alcoholism and his unstableness and I am not saying just leave her. I beleive that if an order could be put in for supervised visits or visits in public places would benefit the situation more. It is hard to all of a sudden take the child completely away from the father.

I commend brouxman for caring for the child and wanting to provide a stable environment but imagine if you move how unstable and violent the father will get. It seems to me that the visits with his daughter are a way of getting control and in his eyes being a good daddy by having these visits and without that control he may explode!!!

Mcnauren- I understand where you are coming from. And trust me if this was a situation where the father was indeed being just that and had the best interest of the child at heart, I would tell brouxman that he would just have to deal with the fact that he couldn't move. I also realize it will be hard to seperate the child from her father, and im not saying he should lose all contact with this child, I believe he should lose unsupervised contact which I know will be up to the courts. Seperating a child from a parent they are familiar with is painful on all accounts. But as in the courts, sometimes in a no win situation you need to look at the long term effects as opposed to the initial pain.

Maybe someone with more knowledge of NY laws can post. But likely if she wants to move, she can anytime she wants to based on the assumption that custody was never established and they were never married, therefore he legally doesn't have any rights to the child.


Does anybody know if this is true in NY??

Thank you Jax...that is the message i have been trying to get across and i feel like i've been missing something...and your whole arguement has been it... :)

momof4 it seems to me that if we were living in NC for 6 months then everything would likely go in our favor....I guess my question would be can we legally take this girl out of the state, set up residence...have him scramble to gain custody in NY (which would never be granted) then after 6 months go through the NC court??

NCmaureen...you said it with your last 3 words he may explode...that has been my gf's fear since before i ever came around...she has always lived in fear of this guy going off the handle... he gets upset everytime something doesn't go his way...ending up in tantrum fights over the phone where threats and demeaning words are thrown around (in front of the little girl)....

So are we supposed to surrender our choices in fear of his losing control....that is not an option to me...

Thank you Jax...that is the message i have been trying to get across and i feel like i've been missing something...and your whole arguement has been it... :)

momof4 it seems to me that if we were living in NC for 6 months then everything would likely go in our favor....I guess my question would be can we legally take this girl out of the state, set up residence...have him scramble to gain custody in NY (which would never be granted) then after 6 months go through the NC court??

NCmaureen...you said it with your last 3 words he may explode...that has been my gf's fear since before i ever came around...she has always lived in fear of this guy going off the handle... he gets upset everytime something doesn't go his way...ending up in tantrum fights over the phone where threats and demeaning words are thrown around (in front of the little girl)....

So are we supposed to surrender our choices in fear of his losing control....that is not an option to me...
OK, LEGALLY speaking (assuming that there isn't any court orders for custody, visitation or CS):

The mother can LEGALLY move taking the child with her. However, the father can LEGALLY prevent the move by filing for custody/vistitation BEFORE the move takes place. AFTER the move, the father can LEGALLY file and ask the court in NY to ORDER the mother to return THE CHILD to NY. (at that point the mother would either have to go back to NY or let the father have custody).

Until the mother has lived in another state for 6 months, she and the child will remain under the jurisdiction of the NY court.

One question that I'm sure will come up if all this goes to court is: if the father is so unfit and a bad influence, why did the mother allow him to see his child on a regular basis WITHOUT a court order telling her that she had no choice? That is going to be very hard for mother to explain.

NY and NC are NOT close to each other, so regular visitation simply isn't going to be possible. If the mother really wants to move the child away, and the father goes to court the mother will have to be able to prove to the court that:
1. The move is in the CHILD'S best interests, and
2. That the father is unfit and a true danger to the child.

IF this goes into court and the mother cannot prove those two things, the mother needs to get used to the idea of living in NY (unless father moves away) until the child is grown. Sorry, that is just a simple fact of life as a parent.
Xena :)

OK, if you want to take this chance, you move with no notice to anybody. Yes, he can file for custody in NY and NY MAY order her to return. Having said that, I moved from NC to TX before custody was ever legally established. Motions had already been filed (2nd year of a 4 year court proceeding). However, the courts strongly suggested I bring my daughter back. I returned to NC for court, leaving my daughter in TX. When the judge figured out everything that was going on, my daughter's father lost all rights to any form of custody. Even if I were to be hit by a bus tomorrow, she will not be turned over to him. Now, I'm not saying that will happen in this case. I just keep reading about how everybody WILL be ordered to come back, and feel like others should know that it does not always happen that way. If you plan to pick up and go, do it. Just know that you are taking a risk. Also know, that you have a better chance if you are already married. The whole living together while unmarried isn't viewed as favorably by the courts as married.

One more thing. All of this that I posted only holds if there has been no legally established custody order. If there has been custody/visitation ordered, you MUST abide by that. To do otherwise is contempt. She risks losing custody of her child. Please find out for sure about the custody situation.

Does anybody know if this is true in NY??

If she receives child support than I believe that this does not apply because he has established that he should have some rights to the child.

child support and custody/visitation = 2 seperate issues.

Thank you again for all your help...there's alot to consider here...

I think a good arguement for why the mother has continued letting the dad see the daughter would be, he has been going in a downward spiral since they split up 4 years ago...He always was abusive and did drink too much...but in the recent past...the threats of violence have continued, even though they are apart...the drinking has gotten worse...daily...and now evidence of a possible drug problem....

Maybe it would have been for the better if this was taken care of earlier, but that doesn't mean it should be too late to make a change for the better...right?

You realize that you can leave and the father would have to come up with thousands of dollars just to get a lawyer and take this to court and get her back. Obviously this man does not have that kind of money!! But this is only if there is no custody order set. Have you ever considered getting a Private Investigator to follow him to these bars and have pictures of his alcohol and possible drug abuse???

i have thought about that...never looked into it...don't know how much they cost or how trustworthy they could be as far as their part holding up in court...

how hard would it be to get a court order to require the mom and dad to both complete drug tests??

child support and custody/visitation = 2 seperate issues.

Yes, these are two separate issues once they are court ordered. However, child support can not be awarded if custody has not yet been established. (who would pay who?) They are commonly referred to as separate issues because once the orders are established, visitation can not be determined by payment or non-payment of child support and vice-versa, child support can not be withheld due to denial of visitation by one parent to the other.

So while they are two separate orders, child support can not be awarded without first establishing custody. Therefore, if there is a child support order, you know that custody has been established.

this paper work was done years ago and i'm sure many of the terms were foreign to her...to the best of her knowlege, support was established but no custody...we need to pull that paper work out and read it..that would be the first step here...

could support be agreed and therefore granted during a mediation meeting where support was the only topic..therefore custody was not established...could that have happened..

this paper work was done years ago and i'm sure many of the terms were foreign to her...to the best of her knowlege, support was established but no custody...we need to pull that paper work out and read it..that would be the first step here...

could support be agreed and therefore granted during a mediation meeting where support was the only topic..therefore custody was not established...could that have happened..

Highley unlikely. Mediation is a way to come to agreements without involving the courts, so therefore sometimes you'll find something unconventional in a mediation agreement that would be different than a normal court order. But I don't see how child support can be agreed upon without establishing custody. It would have been a very "loose" agreement if noone was granted custody of the child. You really need to find the original paper work before you decide to do anything.

not necessarily. When my daughter's father was ordered to pay cs, it was set up with nc cse. PATERNITY was established, but because he wasn't pressing for custody or visitation, it was never addressed. It wasn't until 2 years later that I finally heard from him. Turns out, he had a new gf and had to come up with a good story as to why he never had anything to do with his child. Yup, I was an evil B**** who wouldn't let him see his baby. So he (financed by his gf) sued for custody. He lost. He has no custody, even if I die. His visitation is very limited and must be supervised by a female at all times. Now that he is divorced (she didn't like being a "temporay mother" -- her term, not mine) he is not paying cs, committed tax fraud, identity theft with her ssn, and is backing out on visitation. The truly sad thing is that I told him from the begining that he needed to be involved 100%. By his own choice, he is letting the most wonderful thing in his life walk away.

in a word brouxman, yes. You still need to find the papers, whatever they may be, and determine if custody has been established or not.

thanks..i'll do that this weekend...

I am not sure how much they cost but a picture says a thousand words otherwise it is just hearsay!!!