Sounds like a sound defense to me. You might discuss this strategy with a
lawyer first; he/she will point out any holes. I've seen people beat a
ticket in court by being prepared with a good defense. Good luck and let us
know how you make out!

"Eric" <Eric@Eric.com> wrote in message
news:nj8Pa.585$H91.13404@news.itd.umich.edu... I recently received a ticket for speeding in Detroit, MI (actually
Highland Park, MI, but issued by Detroit police, which apparently have jurisdiction over traffic tickets in Highland Park, though I'd like confirmation from this if anyone knows whether this is true or not) for going 80 in a 55
zone. I am certain that I can prove mathematically that this was not possible,
as I couldn't have accelerated from 0 to 80 fast enough to be going 80 at the point at which I was cited for going 80. Would this defense work in court?
I can prepare all of the equations showing that it isn't possible, the only thing I need to find is my car's 0-80 acceleration time from a reliable source. Most sources unfortunately only give 0-60 times, and I know that acceleration isn't linear (i.e., it is going to be a lot more than a 33% longer time to accelerate to 80 than it is to 60, due to the gearing of
the car). Anyway, I was just looking for some advice about whether this
defense would hold up in court, or whether the judge would just assume I'm faking the numbers, or else just not believe me anyways and believe the cop over me. Also, does anyone have any reliable statistics about how often cops don't show up in court on contested tickets? I've heard all sorts of
random numbers, but no official stats. Also, if anyone has any information specifically about the process of trying to beat a ticket in Detroit, I'd appreciate that as well. Thanks.

"Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
news:fthPa.40120$C83.3167290@newsread1.prod.itd.ea rthlink.net... Sounds like a sound defense to me. You might discuss this strategy with a lawyer first; he/she will point out any holes. I've seen people beat a ticket in court by being prepared with a good defense. Good luck and let
us know how you make out!

Most people learn that preparing a good defense is a waste of time and
energy, as you will see if you sit and watch some cases. Of course, if you
are or use a lawyer with the proper relation with the court, you have a good
chance of winning. In CA, Best chance to win is to delay, delay, and delay.
The longer you delay, the more likely the cop won't be available in court,
and then you win Also, ask for the officers notes through a discovery
motion and then when they are not provided, and he appears in court, tell
the judge they where not provided and have the case rescheduled for another
date (you need time to properly prepare with the notes you finally have).
If the cop shows up again, dismiss the judge (in CA, you can do that for any
reason that you think he is prejudiced against your interest). Remember --
in traffic cases you are not innocent until proven guilty -- the trials are
a sham and the main point is to efficiently generate revenue. Why else do
you think you are no longer given the right of jury trial? So don't waste
your time with a good defense, just do whatever it takes such that you get
the case dismissed when the officer does not show up.

Question for everyone: Does anyone now of a source that lists traffic
infraction fine amounts for various states and also objectively compares how
strict the cops are in pulling people over for infractions? That way, we
can at least choose to not live in and avoid states whose cops are most
likely to commit highway robbery. And for LEO's who actually believe their
ticketing makes a difference, providing such info may help keep what you see
as dangerous motorist out or your jurisdiction.

motocat

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:12:11 GMT, "motocat" <nospam@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Question for everyone: Does anyone now of a source that lists trafficinfraction fine amounts for various states and also objectively compares howstrict the cops are in pulling people over for infractions? That way, wecan at least choose to not live in and avoid states whose cops are mostlikely to commit highway robbery. And for LEO's who actually believe theirticketing makes a difference, providing such info may help keep what you seeas dangerous motorist out or your jurisdiction.

I believe most people would disagree with you here. The police are
paid to ticket people who are driving in a manner which the public
believes is dangerous. Most of them use more than reasonable
restraint, and only ticket those who truly deserve it (with the
exception of kids, blacks and other minorities). Nobody can fairly
suggest that they are doing something improper by ticketing people who
are breaking the law. Nobody can fairly suggest that the states which
have higher fines are being unjust. Higher fines most likely do
succeed in increasing compliance.

"DTJ" <dtj@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hph3hv0o7tuhpgfjlbs27ki0ulnd1nr140@4ax.com... On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:12:11 GMT, "motocat" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote:Question for everyone: Does anyone now of a source that lists trafficinfraction fine amounts for various states and also objectively compares
howstrict the cops are in pulling people over for infractions? That way, wecan at least choose to not live in and avoid states whose cops are mostlikely to commit highway robbery. And for LEO's who actually believe
theirticketing makes a difference, providing such info may help keep what you
seeas dangerous motorist out or your jurisdiction. I believe most people would disagree with you here. The police are paid to ticket people who are driving in a manner which the public believes is dangerous. Most of them use more than reasonable restraint, and only ticket those who truly deserve it (with the exception of kids, blacks and other minorities). Nobody can fairly suggest that they are doing something improper by ticketing people who are breaking the law. Nobody can fairly suggest that the states which have higher fines are being unjust. Higher fines most likely do succeed in increasing compliance.

This is not really about agreement. I simply am inquiring as to whether
there is a source that lists the fines of various states for different
traffic infractions. Of course, you don't see ticketing as many do. That
said, many, many, people would like to know how much different state fines
for various violations are. Connecticut, according to a previous poster,
fines you over $1,000 for going 25+ over the speed limit. Many people would
like to know that, so they could avoid driving/living in a state with what
they see as an unreasonable penalty for a common and safe activity. The
great thing about America, is that you can choose where to live. Hey, why
don't you cooperate here? That way, perhaps I, a speeder, can avoid doing
any business in your state. And yes, people can fairly suggest that certain
fines are unreasonably high -- sorry, this is America.

motocat

"motocat" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LpgQa.47830$OZ2.8538@rwcrnsc54...
That way, we can at least choose to not live in and avoid states whose cops are most likely to commit highway robbery.

Probably the best guideline would be population density. Lower population =
fewer cops. See
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/catalog/national/html/Population.htmldir/USpop1990.html

"motocat" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LpgQa.47830$OZ2.8538@rwcrnsc54...
Does anyone now of a source that lists traffic infraction fine amounts for various states

The NHTSA has a Summary Table of State Speed Laws at
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/speedlaws501/summary_table.htm .
and also objectively compares how strict the cops are in pulling people over for infractions?

Well, "strict" is subjective and "pulling people over" doesn't mean they all
get ticketed.

See the DOT report "A Trend Analysis of Traffic Law Enforcement in the
United States," available online at:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/TrendAnalysis/index.htm#toc

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:27:13 GMT, "motocat" <nospam@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"DTJ" <dtj@comcast.net> wrote in messagenews:hph3hv0o7tuhpgfjlbs27ki0ulnd1nr140@4ax .com... On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:12:11 GMT, "motocat" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote:Question for everyone: Does anyone now of a source that lists trafficinfraction fine amounts for various states and also objectively compareshowstrict the cops are in pulling people over for infractions? That way, wecan at least choose to not live in and avoid states whose cops are mostlikely to commit highway robbery. And for LEO's who actually believetheirticketing makes a difference, providing such info may help keep what youseeas dangerous motorist out or your jurisdiction. I believe most people would disagree with you here. The police are paid to ticket people who are driving in a manner which the public believes is dangerous. Most of them use more than reasonable restraint, and only ticket those who truly deserve it (with the exception of kids, blacks and other minorities). Nobody can fairly suggest that they are doing something improper by ticketing people who are breaking the law. Nobody can fairly suggest that the states which have higher fines are being unjust. Higher fines most likely do succeed in increasing compliance.This is not really about agreement. I simply am inquiring as to whetherthere is a source that lists the fines of various states for differenttraffic infractions. Of course, you don't see ticketing as many do. Thatsaid, many, many, people would like to know how much different state finesfor various violations are. Connecticut, according to a previous poster,fines you over $1,000 for going 25+ over the speed limit. Many people wouldmotocat

I have no knowledge of such a list. A quick attempt at Google wasn't
very helpful, but did suggest my statements are in error, at least in
Finland.

"In Finland, traffic fines are based on the severity of the violation
and the offender’s income. Until recently, police relied on the honor
system; they would ask for a traffic violator's gross monthly income
and use a book of tables to calculate the fine. Police reported that
violators would typically lie about their monthly income. In addition,
citizens complained that the fines should be based on take-home pay,
which is significantly less than gross income, considering the
nation's high tax rates. To solve these problems, Finland made major
changes in the law in 1999. The police now use technology to tap into
official tax records, which are public in Finland, and learn within
seconds a driver’s reported income and the appropriate traffic fine.

Upper-income Finns are outraged that moving traffic violations can
individually cost them tens of thousands of dollars. But many Finns
believe the system is fair and politicians agree. Despite efforts last
year to cap speeding tickets at $7,825, only 29 of 200 members of
Finland’s parliament supported the measure. “Some people think it’s
the only way to get wealthy people to drive slowly or respect the
law,” says Leena Harkimo, a Conservative Party member in the Finnish
parliament. Traffic fines go to Finland’s treasury for general
government purposes.

Government officials do admit that the progressive penalties are more
about equity than safety. In fact, while fines have doubled, the
number of speeding tickets issued in Finland has stayed the same with
no reduction in the number of traffic fatalities. Heikki Summala,
professor of traffic psychology at the University of Helsinki says
“…when the economy is strong, people drive somewhat faster and have
somewhat more accidents. Some people are more in a hurry…and time is
money.”"
like to know that, so they could avoid driving/living in a state with whatthey see as an unreasonable penalty for a common and safe activity. Thegreat thing about America, is that you can choose where to live. Hey, whydon't you cooperate here? That way, perhaps I, a speeder, can avoid doingany business in your state. And yes, people can fairly suggest that certainfines are unreasonably high -- sorry, this is America.

Oh, I don't disagree with you here. You have every right to complain
about whatever you want. Hopefully, the more vocal groups do not get
what they want simply because they are louder than others. However,
what you are suggesting is very appropriate.

I would be upset if you, for example, thought that everyone who drove
Honda's should be ticketed at twice the rate of Ford's, or something
similar. That would be an inappropriate use of citizen power.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:50:11 -0700, "Bob Kegel" <seventy 2002 at
hotmail dot com> wrote:
"motocat" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:LpgQa.47830$OZ2.8538@rwcrnsc54... That way, we can at least choose to not live in and avoid states whose cops are most likely to commit highway robbery.Probably the best guideline would be population density. Lower population =fewer cops. Seehttp://www.cast.uark.edu/local/catalog/national/html/Population.htmldir/USpop1990.html

ALthough an interesting idea, it is invalid.

First, population density is only a predictor of police density. Some
areas with high property values have far more cops, while poor
neighborhoods frequently have far fewer. Poor areas tend to be more
populous per square mile.

Also, while population density decreases, generally the auto density
would also decrease. There are exceptions, such as Oak Brook
Illinois, where the population increases from about 10,000 to almost
100,000 on work days. Usually, though, lower populations simply make
it easier for the cop to focus on you. When I am driving in heavy
traffic in a city, and I see a cop, I usually can ignore them. I am
but one in hundreds, and unless he is looking for someone to ticket,
he won't even see me. On a rural road, however, the same cop has
nothing better to do than clock me if he wants.

However, your idea was interesting, and could possibly be used with
the inclusion of other factors.