I (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to US
citizenship must travel to the US with a US passport. I believe this
applies to our three month old baby who only has a UK passport depite
his mother being a US citzen. We (all three) are booked to travel to
the US in two weeks for vacation, so we will be in breach of the law
but I don't think we have time to arrange a US passport for the baby.
We plan to travel anyway and just 'hope for the best' - can they
really refuse entry to the US because the baby's mother is a US
citizen?

Does anyone have experience of this or advice to offer?

grist2mill wrote:
I (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to US citizenship must travel to the US with a US passport. I believe this applies to our three month old baby who only has a UK passport depite his mother being a US citzen. We (all three) are booked to travel to the US in two weeks for vacation, so we will be in breach of the law but I don't think we have time to arrange a US passport for the baby. We plan to travel anyway and just 'hope for the best' - can they really refuse entry to the US because the baby's mother is a US citizen? Does anyone have experience of this or advice to offer?

Contact the Embassy or Consulate and ask them how long it takes to get a
passport.

mrtravelkay wrote: grist2mill wrote: I (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to US citizenship must travel to the US with a US passport. I believe this applies to our three month old baby who only has a UK passport depite his mother being a US citzen. We (all three) are booked to travel to the US in two weeks for vacation, so we will be in breach of the law but I don't think we have time to arrange a US passport for the baby. We plan to travel anyway and just 'hope for the best' - can they really refuse entry to the US because the baby's mother is a US citizen? Does anyone have experience of this or advice to offer? Contact the Embassy or Consulate and ask them how long it takes to get a passport.

They won't refuse entry ... just fine you.

"grist2mill" wrote:
I (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to US citizenship must travel to the US with a US passport. I believe this applies to our three month old baby who only has a UK passport despite his mother being a US citizen. We (all three) are booked to travel to the US in two weeks for vacation, so we will be in breach of the law but I don't think we have time to arrange a US passport for the baby. We plan to travel anyway and just 'hope for the best' - can they really refuse entry to the US because the baby's mother is a US citizen?

"S Brook" replied:
They won't refuse entry ... just fine you.

Two comments.

First, my understanding is that the "passport waiver fee" (the fine
applicable when a US citizen comes to the US without a current US
passport) is currently zero (no fee), and has been since at least
2002. Of course, it could theoretically be reinstated at any time,
but . . . .

Second, you should note that merely having a parent who is a US
citizen is not necessarily enough to make a non-US-born child a
US citizen. Your wife (I'll assume for the sake of discussion that
you're married to "the baby's mother") needs to have spent at least
five years in the US prior to the baby's birth -- and, additionally,
at least two years out of this minimum of five must have taken place
after her 14th birthday. There are other rules that come into play
in the case of a child born "out of wedlock" to an American mother.

My point is that there are some cases where a non-US-born child of
an American parent may not necessarily have a claim to US citizen-
ship. It's quite possible that if you travel as a family to the US,
with a British passport for your child, the US immigration official
who deals with you might either say nothing at all, or else might
simply ask you if you were aware that your child =may= be a US
citizen and suggest you find out.

What the two of you should really do is contact a US consulate or
embassy and ask about getting your child a "Consular Report of Birth
Abroad". In order to get this form (sometimes casually, and not
strictly correctly, called a "US birth certificate"), your wife will
need to show proof of her own US citizenship, and also sign a state-
ment (and possibly also show evidence to back it up) dealing with
what periods of time she spent in the US during her life prior to
the child's birth. Assuming your child is in fact a US citizen, you
can use the "Consular Report" form to get him a US passport.

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> wrote in message news:<%E7pc.48430$FI3.42646@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>... grist2mill wrote: I (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to US citizenship must travel to the US with a US passport. I believe this applies to our three month old baby who only has a UK passport depite his mother being a US citzen. We (all three) are booked to travel to the US in two weeks for vacation, so we will be in breach of the law but I don't think we have time to arrange a US passport for the baby. We plan to travel anyway and just 'hope for the best' - can they really refuse entry to the US because the baby's mother is a US citizen? Does anyone have experience of this or advice to offer? Contact the Embassy or Consulate and ask them how long it takes to get a passport.


I wouldn't be surprised if it can be done in less than a week.

If your baby wasn't born in the USA, I think he/she isn't a US citizen (yet).
Not sure.

grist2mill@excite.com (grist2mill) wrote in message news:<46e240e.0405140701.5d204d85@posting.google.com>... I (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to US citizenship must travel to the US with a US passport. I believe this applies to our three month old baby who only has a UK passport depite his mother being a US citzen. We (all three) are booked to travel to the US in two weeks for vacation, so we will be in breach of the law but I don't think we have time to arrange a US passport for the baby. We plan to travel anyway and just 'hope for the best' - can they really refuse entry to the US because the baby's mother is a US citizen? Does anyone have experience of this or advice to offer?

Amanda wrote:
mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> wrote in message news:<%E7pc.48430$FI3.42646@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>...grist2mill wrote:I (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to UScitizenship must travel to the US with a US passport. I believe thisapplies to our three month old baby who only has a UK passport depitehis mother being a US citzen. We (all three) are booked to travel tothe US in two weeks for vacation, so we will be in breach of the lawbut I don't think we have time to arrange a US passport for the baby.We plan to travel anyway and just 'hope for the best' - can theyreally refuse entry to the US because the baby's mother is a UScitizen?Does anyone have experience of this or advice to offer?Contact the Embassy or Consulate and ask them how long it takes to get apassport. I wouldn't be surprised if it can be done in less than a week.\

I know you can get an emergency one done in less time. :)

Olivier Wagner wrote:
If your baby wasn't born in the USA, I think he/she isn't a US citizen (yet). Not sure.

If the parent is a US citizen and has lived in the US for 5 years (at
least 2 of them past their 14th birthday), then the child would be a US
citizen.

In message <57d43f8b.0405141606.4901cda1@posting.google.com>, Amanda
<amanda992004@yahoo.com> writesI wouldn't be surprised if it can be done in less than a week.

If you have the necessary status (see other replies) and go to the US
Embassy in London, they will either give you a temporary passport for
the child, or advise you otherwise. It won't be free of charge, though.
--
Roland Perry

In message <Swdpc.48582$HO7.20423@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>,
mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> writesIf the parent is a US citizen and has lived in the US for 5 years (atleast 2 of them past their 14th birthday), then the child would be a UScitizen.

After they have registered this information at the Embassy.
--
Roland Perry

WOW...well I havent heard any good advice for you so I guess Ill put in my 2
cents from experience. The baby will need a US passport. They WILL deny
him/her entry into the US. I mean seriously...if that were not the case then
why dont we just say that visas, passports or any identification are not
necessary for any person under 2 years old. Anyway, you should still have
time. You will need to go to the Embassy and apply for a Consular Report of
Birth Abroad AND AND AND A PASSPORT. You will need to meet some qualifications
such as the legal sounding mumbo-jumbo somebody quoted earlier in this thread.
After all, you are asking for someone to grant the baby US citizenship. If you
are familiar with any of the immigration process at all, you will know that
NOTHING is automatic. Anyway, best case scenario is that everything runs
smoothly and you get what you need on time. Worse case...the Consular has
doubts as to the paternity of the child to the US citizen and orders a DNA test
before granting anything. EVEN WORSE case...you try and travel thinking that
because the child is only a few days/weeks/months old that immigration will
look at him/her and say, "Oh well, he/she is only 3 months old and I understand
that you have travel plans so just this time I am going to throw all the
immigration laws out the window". Anyway, here is some advise. They may tell
you that its gonna take 2 or 3 weeks to get the passport. This is probably
true in most cases, but most of this time is internal processing. That is to
say that they must enter the info electronically to send to the US. From there
the passport is made and sent back via mail to the Embassy. From there they
must process it through their internal mail stuff. In the case of my Embassy,
they got bundles of passports daily and called people once a week to come pick
them up. Well, maybe the passport arrives on Monday, but doesnt get to the
correct office until Tuesday. Then its thrown in a giant bind with 40 or 50
others. Well, Tuesday morning the lady came and called all the people with
passports in the bind. Now your passport is gonna sit until next Tuesday or
Wednesday and your not picking it up until Thursday. See how this works????
Anyway, be nice, explain your situation. And most important of all, if you
want them to help you then understand that it is NOT their problem. Also,
forget about the temp passport. Its only for emergencys. And trust me, "your
travel plans already made are not considered an emergency". I put that in
quotes becuase that is exactly what the Cosular said to me. Ok, well best of
luck. Fell free to email me with anymore questions. But you will probably
need to simply get info from the Embassy closest to you.

Jason

JAYWAYS wrote:
WOW...well I havent heard any good advice for you so I guess Ill put in my 2 cents from experience. The baby will need a US passport. They WILL deny him/her entry into the US.

Really? You suggest that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the US
simply because they are not in possession of a passport?

In message <ZeYpc.49851$M_5.17317@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>,
mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> writesYou suggest that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the US simplybecause they are not in possession of a passport?

How do they know that the child is a US Citizen? You'd need at least the
Consular Birth Report.
--
Roland Perry

Originally posted by Mrtravelkay JAYWAYS wrote: WOW...well I havent heard any good advice for you so I guess Ill
put in my 2 cents from experience. The baby will need a US
passport. They WILL deny him/her entry into the US.
Really? You suggest that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the
US simply because they are not in possession of a passport?


Sounds rather unconstitutional to me.....


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Roland Perry In message
<ZeYpc.49851$M_5.17317@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>, mrtravelkay
<a@a.aa.a> writesYou suggest that a US Citizen can be denied
entry into the US simplybecause they are not in possession
of a passport? How do they know that the child is a US
Citizen? You'd need at least the Consular Birth Report. --
Roland Perry

What if someone gave birth on the plane?


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

In message <1426413.1084799049@britishexpats.com>, lairdside
<member5824@british_expats.com> writesWhat if someone gave birth on the plane?

I think there are complex rules about citizenship, then. But the
traveller can benefit from the following catch-22:

If the immigration official says: "This baby is a USC, the law requires
me to see proof of this in order to enter the country", then you say
"Prove to me that the baby is a USC, and therefore covered by this law;
and then I'll hand whatever proof you give me straight back to you."
--
Roland Perry

In message <46e240e.0405140701.5d204d85@posting.google.com>, grist2mill
<grist2mill@excite.com> writesI (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to UScitizenship must travel to the US with a US passport.

Having posted the message about "catch-22" earlier, it might be worth
checking if the rule applies to people with a *possible claim* to US
Citizenship, or someone who has *proven* the claim.

Did you register the birth at the Embassy? If not, the child may not be
a USC yet, just someone with a good *claim* to be proven later.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ZeYpc.49851$M_5.17317@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>, mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> writes You suggest that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the US simply because they are not in possession of a passport? How do they know that the child is a US Citizen? You'd need at least the Consular Birth Report.

Yes, but I was addressing the issue of a US citizen entering without a
passport.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message <1426413.1084799049@britishexpats.com>, lairdside <member5824@british_expats.com> writes What if someone gave birth on the plane? I think there are complex rules about citizenship, then. But the traveller can benefit from the following catch-22: If the immigration official says: "This baby is a USC, the law requires me to see proof of this in order to enter the country", then you say "Prove to me that the baby is a USC, and therefore covered by this law; and then I'll hand whatever proof you give me straight back to you."

Actually, that wouldn't work, since he would need proof of the person's
ability to enter the US, not necessarily proof that they are a US
citizen. This proof would be required of even non US citizens.

In message <yF6qc.68039$At4.32840@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>,
mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> writes What if someone gave birth on the plane? I think there are complex rules about citizenship, then. But thetraveller can benefit from the following catch-22: If the immigration official says: "This baby is a USC, the lawrequires me to see proof of this in order to enter the country", thenyou say "Prove to me that the baby is a USC, and therefore covered bythis law; and then I'll hand whatever proof you give me straight backto you."Actually, that wouldn't work, since he would need proof of the person'sability to enter the US, not necessarily proof that they are a UScitizen. This proof would be required of even non US citizens.

That's a more complex issue, as you can't expect *any* infant born on a
plane to have a birth certificate, let alone a passport. So I expect
they have a procedure for that. But whether that procedure has been
carefully designed to fail spectacularly when it's a potential USC
that's trying to get into the USA; well, stranger things have happened.
--
Roland Perry

Originally posted by lairdside What if someone gave
birth on the plane?

Yeah!! what if?? That was such a good
question!!
:)


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by lairdside What if someone gave
birth on the plane?

Well, which carrier and where was the
plane going? ;)


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by AnnaV Well, which carrier and
where was the plane going? ;)

Don't most airlines have
restrictions on letting one fly X number of weeks into the pregnancy toa
avoid just such a complication?


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by meauxna Don't most airlines have
restrictions on letting one fly X number of weeks into the pregnancy toa
avoid just such a complication?

I don't think they have the
restriction because of immigration do they? I thought it was for medical
reasons.

I thought the restriction was for women who were more than
either 34 or 36 weeks gestation generally (can't remember which).

I had
my son at 34 weeks, my former sister in law gave birth to her son at 26
weeks. I've known of babies being born and surviving at 21 1/2 weeks.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by lairdside I don't think they have
the restriction because of immigration do they? I thought it was for
medical reasons.

Yeah, I simultaneously quoted and wrote
poorly :( What I meant to say was
"aren't the rules against flying after
X weeks there to prevent births aloft".

or similar.

Which would be to
cover: the airlines' medical liability, the mother's comfort and
immigration rules, likely in that order! :)

And if you've checked out
the "when to have kids" thread, you'll know about me that "Miss Scarlet,
I don't know nothing about birthing babies!."

Sorry to read your recent
news... if you're planning a trip to Spokane, don't forget we're on the
way. The local strawberries are ready...yum!


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by meauxna Yeah, I simultaneously
quoted and wrote poorly :( What I meant to say was "aren't the rules
against flying after X weeks there to prevent births aloft". or
similar. Which would be to cover: the airlines' medical liability,
the mother's comfort and immigration rules, likely in that order! :)
And if you've checked out the "when to have kids" thread, you'll know
about me that "Miss Scarlet, I don't know nothing about birthing
babies!." Sorry to read your recent news... if you're planning a
trip to Spokane, don't forget we're on the way. The local strawberries
are ready...yum!

I looked around and it seems that I was in
the right ball park. Most airlines allow expectant mothers to fly until
the end of their 35th week of pregnancy.

I shall be sure to visit
yourself and Ranjini just as soon as I can wangle a couple of days off
work :)

Which news btw? The cancer, the impending divorce or both?

I'm
doing well :)


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

>Really? You suggest that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the USsimply because they are not in possession of a passport?

Are you suggesting that it is not the case? If so, why not leave the country,
burn all proof you have of your citizenship and then see what problems you have
getting back in. This is still neglecting the fact that the baby has never
been in the US and therefore has even less than you may or may not have to
prove any ties whatsoever to the US. Lets also remember that the baby IS NOT a
US citizen. Citizenship must be granted through a Consular Report of Birth
Abroad which must be obtained before you can even apply for a US passport which
are only granted to citizens of the US. So I guess the question is not can a
US citizen be denied entry without a passport, but rather can a baby that may
be eligible for citizenship, but DOES not have it be denied entry into the US.
I think even you would have to admit that they would indeed be denied entry.

Originally posted by JaywaysReally? You suggest
that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the USsimply
because they are not in possession of a passport? Are you
suggesting that it is not the case? If so, why not leave the country,
burn all proof you have of your citizenship and then see what problems
you have getting back in. This is still neglecting the fact that the
baby has never been in the US and therefore has even less than you may
or may not have to prove any ties whatsoever to the US. Lets also
remember that the baby IS NOT a US citizen. Citizenship must be
granted through a Consular Report of Birth Abroad which must be
obtained before you can even apply for a US passport which are only
granted to citizens of the US. So I guess the question is not can a
US citizen be denied entry without a passport, but rather can a baby
that may be eligible for citizenship, but DOES not have it be denied
entry into the US. I think even you would have to admit that they
would indeed be denied entry.


Hi:

You are wrong. If it
meets the requirements, the kid is a citizen at BIRTH. Don't conflate
documentation with status.


--
Certified Specialist
Immigration &amp; Nat. Law
Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by JaywaysReally? You suggest
that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the USsimply
because they are not in possession of a passport? Are you
suggesting that it is not the case? If so, why not leave the country,
burn all proof you have of your citizenship and then see what problems
you have getting back in. This is still neglecting the fact that the
baby has never been in the US and therefore has even less than you may
or may not have to prove any ties whatsoever to the US. Lets also
remember that the baby IS NOT a US citizen. Citizenship must be
granted through a Consular Report of Birth Abroad which must be
obtained before you can even apply for a US passport which are only
granted to citizens of the US. So I guess the question is not can a
US citizen be denied entry without a passport, but rather can a baby
that may be eligible for citizenship, but DOES not have it be denied
entry into the US. I think even you would have to admit that they
would indeed be denied entry.

Wrong. If the child is a US
Citizen they accquire this at birth. The Consulate merely makes a
determination as to whether or not the child is indeed a US Citizen,
they do not grant the Citizenship.
The consular registration is
conclusive PROOF of U.S. citizenship, the child is already a US Citizen
under the principle of Jus Sanguinis.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Folinskyinla Hi: You are
wrong. If it meets the requirements, the kid is a citizen at BIRTH.
Don't conflate documentation with status.

Snap. You posted
whilst I was typing. LoL.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

JAYWAYS wrote:
Really? You suggest that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the USsimply because they are not in possession of a passport? Are you suggesting that it is not the case? If so, why not leave the country, burn all proof you have of your citizenship and then see what problems you have getting back in. This is still neglecting the fact that the baby has never been in the US and therefore has even less than you may or may not have to prove any ties whatsoever to the US. Lets also remember that the baby IS NOT a US citizen. Citizenship must be granted through a Consular Report of Birth Abroad which must be obtained before you can even apply for a US passport which are only granted to citizens of the US. So I guess the question is not can a US citizen be denied entry without a passport, but rather can a baby that may be eligible for citizenship, but DOES not have it be denied entry into the US. I think even you would have to admit that they would indeed be denied entry.

You are wrong... Citizenship that would begin at birth, begins at
birth, even if it hasn't been documented. The child is a citizen with or
without documentation.

On Tue, 18 May 2004 04:23:40 GMT, mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> wrote:

You are wrong... Citizenship that would begin at birth, begins atbirth, even if it hasn't been documented. The child is a citizen with orwithout documentation.

So the US government can force dual-nationality onto a newborn baby?

TBM

TBM wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2004 04:23:40 GMT, mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> wrote:You are wrong... Citizenship that would begin at birth, begins atbirth, even if it hasn't been documented. The child is a citizen with orwithout documentation. So the US government can force dual-nationality onto a newborn baby?

Yes, and so can most countries. Nearly every baby born in the US is a
US citizen.

> > If your baby wasn't born in the USA, I think he/she isn't a US citizen (yet). Not sure. If the parent is a US citizen and has lived in the US for 5 years (at least 2 of them past their 14th birthday), then the child would be a US citizen.

AND if the parents were married at the time of the birth.

If all those requirements are met, then yes, the child would
automatically be a US citizen.

If the parents were not married then the rules are different,
depending on whether it's the mother or the father who is
the US citizen.

Stephen Gallagher

> >If the parent is a US citizen and has lived in the US for 5 years (atleast 2 of them past their 14th birthday), then the child would be a UScitizen. After they have registered this information at the Embassy.

Registration of the birth is not a requirement, nor it is a conferral of
citizenship. If the child meets all the requirements then he IS a US
citizen, automatically. The registration merely provides a "Consular Report
of Birth Abroad of a US Citizen" which can be used to obtain a
US passport for the child and as documentary proof of the child's
US citizenship.

If the child's birth is not registered then the first time he applies
for a US passport (or an application is made on his behalf), he
would have to submit the proof of his US parent's citizenship and
the parent's physical presence in the US for at least five years (with two
years after age fourteen), and proof of his parents' marriage,
along with the details of his own birth.

Stephen Gallagher

lairdside <member5824@british_expats.com> wrote in message news:<1426411.1084798991@britishexpats.com>... Originally posted by Mrtravelkay JAYWAYS wrote: WOW...well I havent heard any good advice for you so I guess Ill put in my 2 cents from experience. The baby will need a US passport. They WILL deny him/her entry into the US. Really? You suggest that a US Citizen can be denied entry into the US simply because they are not in possession of a passport?

If they're convinced that the person at the port of entry is a US citizen,
then they would most likely admit that person. In theory, there is an
administrative penalty for a US citizen entering the US without having
sufficient proof of citizenship (a valid passport, or other documentation
when authorized), although currently the penalty is set at zero dollars.

In the case of a child born outside the US with US parentage, if a foreign
passport were presented for the child, the immigration officer would
most likely also advise them to verify that the child is or is not a US
citizen via a US consulate or the State Department.

An adult would get a more severe lecture on how the US requires
all US citizens to have US passports when they enter the country,
and not foreign passports (if they suspected that he was a US citizen),
even if they're allowed to use that foreign passport when outside the
US.

All the circumstance involved would take a part in the reaction of
immigration.

Stephen Gallagher

> Lets also remember that the baby IS NOT a US citizen. Citizenship must be granted through a Consular Report of Birth Abroad

That's not correct. The Consular Report of Birth Abroad is not a
grant or conferral of US citizenship. It is documentary proof that
the child IS a US citizen. If the requirements have been met, then the
child is a US citizen from birth, whether it's ever registered or not.

Stephen

> >You are wrong... Citizenship that would begin at birth, begins atbirth, even if it hasn't been documented. The child is a citizen with orwithout documentation. So the US government can force dual-nationality onto a newborn baby?

That depends on your point of view. Assuming that the child also
holds
citizenship in his country of birth (or even his "other" parent's
country
of citizenship, if that parent is a citizen of a third country), you
could just as easily
say that the birth country is forcing "dual nationality" onto the
baby.

The concept of nationality through parentage, known as "jus
sanguinis",
is quite common in the world. Most countries have some mechanism
to pass citizenship from parent to child, and in some countries it's
the only way
to obtain that country's nationality other than naturalization. Not
every
country grants citizenship by birth on its territory. Switzerland is
an example
of this. The only way to be born a Swiss is to have a Swiss parent.

So, automatic conferral of citizenship through parentage is no more
or less a means of "forcing" citizenship onto a child than is the
automatic
conferral of citizenship through birth on a country's territory. They
are both
separate functions of the laws of two (or more) different countries.

The fact that the child might also have another citizenship is
immaterial
to the operation of US nationality law. So, they're not forcing "dual
nationality"
as much as they are automatically giving the child "US nationality",
the same
way that the birth country may have done.

Stephen Gallagher

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
If your baby wasn't born in the USA, I think he/she isn't a US citizen (yet).Not sure.If the parent is a US citizen and has lived in the US for 5 years (atleast 2 of them past their 14th birthday), then the child would be a UScitizen. AND if the parents were married at the time of the birth. If all those requirements are met, then yes, the child would automatically be a US citizen. If the parents were not married then the rules are different, depending on whether it's the mother or the father who is the US citizen.

The child is still as citizen, even if the parents aren't married.

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
If the parents were not married then the rules are different, depending on whether it's the mother or the father who is the US citizen.

"mrtravelkay" replied:
The child is still a citizen, even if the parents aren't married.

Not necessarily. Look at section 309 of the Immigration and
Nationality Act (Title 8, section 1409 of the United States Code).

If a child is born outside the US, out of wedlock, to an American
father and a non-American mother, INA 309(a) [8 USC 1409(a)] allows
the father's US citizenship to be considered (in order to establish
the child's birth claim to US citizenship) only if the father's
paternity is clearly established AND the father makes a written
agreement to support the child financially until he/she is an adult.

If the child's mother is a US citizen, INA 309(c) [8 USC 1409(c)]
makes the child a US citizen at birth provided the mother had, at
some time in her life prior to the child's birth, spent at least one
continuous, uninterrupted, full year in the US.

INA 309 was upheld by the Supreme Court in 2001 [Ngyuen v. INS,
533 U.S. 53], against an allegation that it was unconstitutional to
make it harder for an illegitimate child of an American father to
claim US citizenship than if the American parent were the mother.

Although INA 309(c) might appear, on the surface, to be an easier
requirement than INA 301(g), it may be very difficult in practice
to prove that the mother never left the US at all (not even for a
part-day cross-border trip to Canada or Mexico) for an entire year.
I've read conflicting claims as to whether INA 309(c) is meant to
be an alternative to the normal rule in INA 301(g) [i.e., the child
gets US citizenship by birth if his/her mother met either one of
the two requirements], or whether it's a =replacement= [i.e., INA
301(g) can never apply if the mother was unmarried, and a child
born to her abroad out of wedlock cannot get US citizenship at
birth unless the mother qualifies under INA 309(c)].

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Back to the OP. The thread has gotten kind of side tracked. Whether your
child is officially a US citizen or not, whether your child has official
documentation of that or not, you need a US passport for the baby. I just
traveled from S. America to the US, with my baby, who like yours, was born
abroad and the immigration officer reviewed her passport and put the same
stamps in it as he did mine. Some people want to argue that a US citizen
cannot be denied entry into the US. I tend to disagree. However, you will be
on vacation with a child that may or may not be a US citizen from birth that
has zero documentation demonstrating citizenship. Now, you may show
documentation that shows that the child meets the requirements of citizenship
and therefore is a citizen, but I very seriously doubt that the immigration
officer at POE has any authority to make that call. I mean, why did I bother
going to the Embassy, and applying for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad and a
US passport for my baby if I could of simply traveled with her and said, "Hey
Mr. Immigration Officer, here is my US passport and here is my baby's birth
certificate with my name on it, let us pass. Thanks". Furthermore, even if
you could make it in with your undocumented child, I can bet that it will be
such an ordeal that you will literally have wished that you stayed at home and
ate all your losses incurred from your unfortunate travel plans.

Point of Thread: Advise on what to do about traveling with baby on vacation

Advice: Get the paperwork done before you travel or you WILL NOT have a
successful vacation

Can anyone possibly disagree with this???

Jason

JAYWAYS wrote: Back to the OP. The thread has gotten kind of side tracked. Whether your child is officially a US citizen or not, whether your child has official documentation of that or not, you need a US passport for the baby. I just traveled from S. America to the US, with my baby, who like yours, was born abroad and the immigration officer reviewed her passport and put the same stamps in it as he did mine. Some people want to argue that a US citizen cannot be denied entry into the US. I tend to disagree.

Disagree if you want. In any case, the immigration officer believes the
baby is a US citizen and permitted entry as such (even without a
passport), or not a US citizen and permitted entry under VWP with his UK
passport. Correct?

> >I (UK citizen) have recently discovered that anyone with a claim to UScitizenship must travel to the US with a US passport. Having posted the message about "catch-22" earlier, it might be worth checking if the rule applies to people with a *possible claim* to US Citizenship, or someone who has *proven* the claim. Did you register the birth at the Embassy? If not, the child may not be a USC yet, just someone with a good *claim* to be proven later.

Registering the birth with a US consular office is not a requirement.
It is not as if the child only possesses US citizenship once his birth
is registered. If the US parent has met the physical presence
requirements then the child became a US citizen at birth. Registering
the birth only provides a paper that confirms that the child has
been a US citizen from birth (and this paper is not required to obtain
a US passport).

Stephen Gallagher

In message <64faa06d.0405200307.40c4148a@posting.google.com>, Stephen
Gallagher <sgallagher@rogers.com> writesRegistering the birth only provides a paper that confirms that thechild has been a US citizen from birth (and this paper is not requiredto obtain a US passport).

http://travel.state.gov/ppt_faq.html#ca16

Note that the exception for those born *in* the US is not aimed at
people without a birth certificate, it for those who have searched
diligently for a copy of their birth certificate and not found it. Those
doing a successful search will *have* the document.

But as the years go on I see more and more officials wanting proper
paperwork (in the UK for example, you now need a birth certificate with
the parents names on it for most purposes, the alternate "short" version
is not much use - including in the URL above).
--
Roland Perry

> >Registering the birth only provides a paper that confirms that thechild has been a US citizen from birth (and this paper is not requiredto obtain a US passport). http://travel.state.gov/ppt_faq.html#ca16

So this confirms what I said. There is no requirement to register
the birth of a child born abroad at a US consulate, in order to "obtain"
US citizenship for the child.

In your previous posting you stated:

"Did you register the birth at the Embassy? If not, the
child may not be a USC yet, just someone with a good
*claim* to be proven later."

that statement implies that the child would not be US citizen
unless and until his birth is registered at a US (consular office),
and that's not true. If the parents meet the requirements then
the child holds US citizenship from birth, even if the birth
is never registered.

If the birth is not registered, then the documents that would have been
needed to register the child would have to be presented the first time
that they request a US passport. But that's not the same as registering
the birth. A birth can only be registered up until the child is 18 years old,
and only if the child is outside the US. If a person's birth was not registered
(with a consulate) and he never chose to apply for a US passport until after
age 18, then he's still a US citizen and eligible for his US passport. His US
passport would become primary proof of his US citizenship. He also has
the option of applying to the USCIS for a certificate of citizenship, but it's not
a requirement.
Note that the exception for those born *in* the US is not aimed at people without a birth certificate, it for those who have searched diligently for a copy of their birth certificate and not found it. Those doing a successful search will *have* the document.

True. But we're not discussing children born "in" the US.
But as the years go on I see more and more officials wanting proper paperwork (in the UK for example, you now need a birth certificate with the parents names on it for most purposes, the alternate "short" version is not much use - including in the URL above).

The probable reason that the UK now requires a birth certificate naming the
parents, would be due to the fact that since 1 January 1983, birth alone
in the UK does not automatically confer British citizenship unless
one of the parents is either British or is settled (normally resident without
any timelimit) in the UK. The full birth certificate would prove the relationship
to the parent. When applying for a British passport for a person born on or
after the above date, the full birth certificate must be presented as well as
proof that the parent(s) meet(s) the citizenship or settled requirement.

Stephen Gallagher

In message <64faa06d.0405210400.36b0c097@posting.google.com>, Stephen
Gallagher <sgallagher@rogers.com> writes
In your previous posting you stated:"Did you register the birth at the Embassy? If not, thechild may not be a USC yet, just someone with a good*claim* to be proven later."

Indeed. I wrote "may not", based on my own experiences and documentation
requirements, and conversations at the US Embassy in London. If I'd have
been 100% sure I'd have written "is not".
that statement implies that the child would not be US citizenunless and until his birth is registered at a US (consular office),and that's not true. If the parents meet the requirements thenthe child holds US citizenship from birth, even if the birthis never registered.

Sure, we've now found a loophole. But I can almost guarantee that using
that loophole will delay any applications that would otherwise sail
through if the Consular report was available.

The DS-11, for example, in addition to asking for the foreign birth
certificate and proof of parents' citizenship requires:

"an affidavit showing all of your U.S. citizen parent's periods
and places of residence/physical presence in the United States
and abroad before your birth."

Which isn't the sort of thing most people have lying around, even if
they have sufficient evidence to create one.

http://travel.state.gov/DS-0011.pdf

Oddly enough it *doesn't* ask for the parents' Marriage Certificate;
dontcha just love the consistency here?
If a person's birth was not registered(with a consulate) and he never chose to apply for a US passport until afterage 18, then he's still a US citizen and eligible for his US passport.

But it sounds like this would become increasing difficult for them to
prove, depending on the survival and accessibility of the necessary
parental documents. Best to get the birth registered in the first place.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
The DS-11, for example, in addition to asking for the foreign birth certificate and proof of parents' citizenship requires: "an affidavit showing all of your U.S. citizen parent's periods and places of residence/physical presence in the United States and abroad before your birth."

It might ask that, but as long as the parent can prove the minimal
requirement for residence in the US ( 5 years of which 2 are after age
14), then there is no law that requires them to prove where they have
lived the other time.

In message <Gbprc.2125$yI5.1123@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>, mrtravelkay
<a@a.aa.a> writes The DS-11, for example, in addition to asking for the foreign birth certificate and proof of parents' citizenship requires: "an affidavit showing all of your U.S. citizen parent'speriods and places of residence/physical presence in the United States and abroad before your birth."It might ask that, but as long as the parent can prove the minimalrequirement for residence in the US ( 5 years of which 2 are after age14), then there is no law that requires them to prove where they havelived the other time.

This "difference between what they ask for, and what people say the law
requires" seems to be very popular in the immigration process :-(
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message <Gbprc.2125$yI5.1123@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>, mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> writes The DS-11, for example, in addition to asking for the foreign birth certificate and proof of parents' citizenship requires: "an affidavit showing all of your U.S. citizen parent's periods and places of residence/physical presence in the United States and abroad before your birth." It might ask that, but as long as the parent can prove the minimal requirement for residence in the US ( 5 years of which 2 are after age 14), then there is no law that requires them to prove where they have lived the other time. This "difference between what they ask for, and what people say the law requires" seems to be very popular in the immigration process :-(

Possibly, but I don't doubt what the outcome would be if they chose the
right attorney.

In message <j9trc.70985$626.48580@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>,
mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> writesPossibly, but I don't doubt what the outcome would be if they chose theright attorney.

<sigh> An Attorney to file a DS-11. Why not just get the normal
paperwork in a timely fashion!
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote: In message <j9trc.70985$626.48580@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>, mrtravelkay <a@a.aa.a> writes Possibly, but I don't doubt what the outcome would be if they chose the right attorney. <sigh> An Attorney to file a DS-11. Why not just get the normal paperwork in a timely fashion!

I think the issue here was what happens if the USC doesn't know where
they were every year of their life. as requested.

> Sure, we've now found a loophole. But I can almost guarantee that using that loophole will delay any applications that would otherwise sail through if the Consular report was available.

True. I'd never suggest to anyone that they not register the birth
on the basis that it's not necessary. It saves a lot of hassles later
if you register the birth. At the same time, it's not as if the
registraton is a requirement. It should be noted that some countries
do have a registration requirement to pass citizenship from parent
to a foreign born child (Australia, for example), and if the registration
is not done by a certain age, the child loses the ability to claim
Australian citizenship.
The DS-11, for example, in addition to asking for the foreign birth certificate and proof of parents' citizenship requires: "an affidavit showing all of your U.S. citizen parent's periods and places of residence/physical presence in the United States and abroad before your birth." Which isn't the sort of thing most people have lying around, even if they have sufficient evidence to create one.

And the longer you wait, the harder it will be to remember and potentially
prove all the details.
http://travel.state.gov/DS-0011.pdf Oddly enough it *doesn't* ask for the parents' Marriage Certificate; dontcha just love the consistency here?

They excel at being consistent, NOT.

Stephen

If you are travelling on holiday why should it matter whether your kid a
is UK or US citizen? Are you intending to move there?


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

In message <1437936.1085346491@britishexpats.com>, scorpvixen
<member20757@british_expats.com> writesIf you are travelling on holiday why should it matter whether your kid ais UK or US citizen?

Simply because the USA has this law that its citizens must use their US
passports to enter the country (and not passports from any other country
they might also be citizens of).
Are you intending to move there?

Doesn't matter.
--
Roland Perry