Hi all,
Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I
am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence.
Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway.
But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here
knows how that goes.

Already thanks for your effort!

Dolf

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Hi all,
Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I
am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence.
Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway.
But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here
knows how that goes.

Already thanks for your effort!

Dolf



This sounds like a ten-foot-pole issue to me. Maybe I'm
misunderstanding you. If you are outside of the US and intend to enter
the US and then marry you would be committing fraud if you then applied
to adjust status. Particularly because you are entering the US with the
intent to marry. Since you have already submitted a K1 petition it
would be pretty hard to prove you didn't intend to get married when you
entered the US, it's one thing to come and visit during a pending K1
it's entirely different to end up marrying and then applying for AOS.
To act legally even if you did come to the US and get married, you would
have to go home and apply for a K3. Depending on which service center
you are using and when you submitted your K1 petition it might be just
as well to wait out the K1.



I'm not as experienced as a lot of posters here so if anyone sees
anything wrong with what I've said please correct me. This is just how
I'm interpreting this particular situation.



MarDae


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Hi all,
Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I
am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence.
Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway.
But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here
knows how that goes.

Already thanks for your effort!

Dolf



Sounds like a BAD idea to me.....


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Hi all,
Because I can't get a K1 visa in time,
Dolf

Hi Dolf,



In time for what? K1's and K3's can both sometimes take just as long
depending on where you are applying.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Hi all,
Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I
am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence.
Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway.
But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here
knows how that goes.

Already thanks for your effort!

Dolf



To echo MarDae, you won't find a lot of helpful advice here on that
subject. I think you'd face a lot of obstacles from USCIS also, as
you've already applied for a K1 and your intent is obvious, not to
mention the fact that your new plan is blatantly illegal.



People wait months to be with their loved one the "right way", and a
straightforward case is stressful enough, so I don't envy you at all by
choosing the other way. Yes, you may get here faster, but you run the
risk of being sent straight back just as fast.



Kate.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Hi all,
Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I
am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence.
Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway.
But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here
knows how that goes.

Already thanks for your effort!

Dolf



As far as everyone said here.. It is a BAD idea. I don't think you could
actually get in the states under the VWP.. with a cancelled I-129
petition for fiancee in your back, but If You do.. you still have AOS
ahead, they will bring up the I-129 cancelled petition and you will be
hosed, don't risk it please..

Take care


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

why don't you get married and DCF like alot of other DutchAmerican couples.
It is the fastest way that is legal.
see our website, read Other Couples on the left menu to get ideas of how you
can fit DCF into your life.
e
www.usadutch.com
"Dolf van de Baan" <jadokie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:428157d8.0312301125.1b94b93a@posting.google.c om... Hi all, Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence. Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway. But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here knows how that goes. Already thanks for your effort! Dolf

Noorah101 <Noorah101@aol.com> wrote in message news:<1140744.1072818019@britishexpats.com>... Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan


In time for what?

In time to get there in time to marry! Everything is already arranged.
And when I went to the city hall in Waukesha, WI the gave me a paper
for what I need to get married legal. And that wasn't a K1 visa, they
never heard of that and sure didn't know more about it. This has
already been a point where I feel that this whole visa happening is
surely not based on expertise! Everybody has his or her own thoughts
about it and it seems that more roads lead to Rome.

And to get to most of the people who say it is illegal. I really
believe that it is not illegal. When I go to the US and marry there, I
can file for a permanent residence. I really don't know what is
illegal about that.

But to come back to my question, in all of your replys I haven't heard
one anwers to my question yet, only people telling that I shouldn't go
this way and I appriciate that. But how do I cancel it?

Thank you for all your replies....and thx for the DutchAmerican
website link!!!

Originally posted by Eileen
why don't you get married and DCF like alot of other DutchAmerican couples.
It is the fastest way that is legal.
see our website, read Other Couples on the left menu to get ideas of how you
can fit DCF into your life.
e
www.usadutch.com
"Dolf van de Baan" <jadokie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:428157d8.0312301125.1b94b93a@posting.google.c om"]news:4281- 57d8.0312301125.1b94b93a@posting.google.com[/url]...
Hi all,
Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I
am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence.
Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway.
But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here
knows how that goes.
Already thanks for your effort!
Dolf





We had applied for my k-1 and had received our NOA1 and NOA2 and my file
had cleared NVC and reached Mumbai Consulate.

We cancelled our application by writing letters to the Vermont Service
Centre , the NVC and Mumbai Consulate stating reason for our
cancellation . Along with our cancellation letter, we sent copies of the
approvals also to the respective places.

We cancelled the K-1 bcos we wanted to get married in India. We are now
going thru the DCF process.

You want to marry once you reach US, but as others in the previous posts
say, it wuld create problems for u, as u have entered on a nonimmigrant
visa ( without intention to marry) and with K-1 u have already applied,
it culd raise a lot of questions at ur AOS.

Ultimately decison is yours, but i think it wuld be wiser to go for a
DCF or carry on with the K-1.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

You are correct that the requirements to obtain a marriage license so
that one may marry within the US do not include a K-1 visa. Why?
Because a marriage license is issued by the state marriage licensing
agency for that particular state and each state has it own requirements,
i.e. blood tests, social security number, etc. and those requirements
vary. In none that I am aware of is an immigration visa a requirement
to obtain a license.



However, in order to successfully adjust status from foreign spouse to
permanent resident, the USCIS has its own requirements. Part of their
requirement is that one has entered the US without intent to defraud.
You are planning to enter the US with the full intent to marry and
remain to adjust status. Even if you are not questioned at the POE as
to this particular intent, you have want is called "pre-conceived
intent" ("PI"). This PI is an issue of fraud in the eyes of the USCIS.



Can USCIS prove this PI on your part even if you were not asked are you
getting married on this visit? Yes, they can in many ways. If they
can, will it hinder your petition for adjustment of status to permanent
resident. Yes, it most certainly can. The ramifications of being
found guilty of such PI can mean separation of husband and wife when
the foreign spouse is made to leave the US and reapply for a visa to
enter the US through USCIS and Consular avenues, if not banned from
entry entirely.



There are several options open to a foreign spouse or foreign finacee to
enter the US legally in pursuit of obtaining permanent residency so they
may live with their US spouses on US soil. One is the K-1 Fiancee Visa
which you have decided not to pursue. Another is the K-3 where after
marriage the foreign spouse returns to their own country to wait out the
processing which will allow them to interview at the US Consulate in the
country where they were married (or if married in the US the US
Consulate where they reside) for a K-3. After entry on a K-3 then you
continue the pursuit of residency. Another is the Immediate Relative
(IV I believe it is called) immigration visa which after successful
completion at the US Consulate affords the foreign spouse the luxury of
entering the US as a permanent resident. And yet another is what Eileen
has spoken of and is only available in a limited number of countries and
then again under limited circumstances, the layman's direct consular
filing. For you, that would be the simpliest avenue. You come to the
US, marry your fiancee and you both honeymoon back in your country
(Netherlands?). While there, she files your I-130 at the US Consulate
and starts the process for your Immediate Relative Visa. Within 6 to 12
weeks you have permission to enter the US as a conditional permanent
resident with the right to live, work, and travel while you and your
wife discover the joys of marriage.



While you have touched on the fact that thousands of people annually do
marry and remain in the US to adjust status successfully while having
entered the US under the VWP and tourist visas, you must be aware that
circumstances for each case differ. Some have never met their spouses
until they entered the US for the first time and on the spur of the
moment before leaving the US decide to marry. In those cases there was
no PI as knowledge of one another was non-existent in the first place.
Others adjust from visas that allowed them to live, work or study in the
US, i.e. H-1B, J-1 or F-1 visas.



If you can navigate the POE successfully and are allowed in, you can do
what you are purposing and remain and adjust status. Will you be
successful? Will the USCIS discover your duplicity? No one here can
tell with any degree of certainty. But we can tell you that there are
risks involved and that the consequences of those risks are serious.
Only you and she know if you are willing to gamble your married lives on
that risk.



Good Luck

Rete







Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Noorah101 <Noorah101@aol.com> wrote in message news:<1140744.1072818019@britishexpats.com>...
Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan


In time for what?

In time to get there in time to marry! Everything is already arranged.
And when I went to the city hall in Waukesha, WI the gave me a paper
for what I need to get married legal. And that wasn't a K1 visa, they
never heard of that and sure didn't know more about it. This has
already been a point where I feel that this whole visa happening is
surely not based on expertise! Everybody has his or her own thoughts
about it and it seems that more roads lead to Rome.

And to get to most of the people who say it is illegal. I really
believe that it is not illegal. When I go to the US and marry there, I
can file for a permanent residence. I really don't know what is
illegal about that.

But to come back to my question, in all of your replys I haven't heard
one anwers to my question yet, only people telling that I shouldn't go
this way and I appriciate that. But how do I cancel it?

Thank you for all your replies....and thx for the DutchAmerican

website link!!!


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Hi all,
Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I
am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence.
Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway.
But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here
knows how that goes.

Already thanks for your effort!

Dolf





You cancel your pending K-1 by contacting the service center that
handled the I-129F and the US Consulate that is handling the K-1 portion
and advise them that you are cancelling the petition. Be sure to
include a copy of your original notice of action and your A# if you have
been assigned one.



Note, however, that this information is already on the database and upon
entry at the POE this information will be on the screen when your
passport is scanned.



Be prepared to answer questions regarding your motives for
entering the US.



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Rete <member167@british_expats.com> wrote in message news:<1141691.1072869013@britishexpats.com>...


Thank you Rete for your information. We (my fiancee and I) think about
doing the next thing, and we think it's legal this way. When I go
there to marry her, we will only get married before the church and not
officially at the city hall, that would be possible right? We just let
the K1 application going how it is and wait for the time for me to go
to the US embassy in Amsterdam, Netherlands. I will quickly take a
trip to Amsterdam for their scheduled appointment then run through
that...hopefully get my K1 visa quickly, head back to the US, go to
the city hall where we will get married legally then andthen adjust
status. Now this is all legal right?
We will go to the Netherlands about 3 weeks after our wedding anyways,
would there be a possibility that the US embassy the possible earlier
scheduled appointment postpone to when I come to the Netherlands when
I ask them?

Well this till so far....thank you all so much already.

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Rete <member167@british_expats.com> wrote in message news:<1141691.1072869013@britishexpats.com>...


Thank you Rete for your information. We (my fiancee and I) think about
doing the next thing, and we think it's legal this way. When I go
there to marry her, we will only get married before the church and not
officially at the city hall, that would be possible right? We just let
the K1 application going how it is and wait for the time for me to go
to the US embassy in Amsterdam, Netherlands. I will quickly take a
trip to Amsterdam for their scheduled appointment then run through
that...hopefully get my K1 visa quickly, head back to the US, go to
the city hall where we will get married legally then andthen adjust
status. Now this is all legal right?
We will go to the Netherlands about 3 weeks after our wedding anyways,
would there be a possibility that the US embassy the possible earlier
scheduled appointment postpone to when I come to the Netherlands when
I ask them?

Well this till so far....thank you all so much already.





Dolf,

In the US a marriage "before the church" IS a legal marriage. If a
legally recognized person performs a marriage ceremony over you,
whether it's a minister, priest, rabbi etc, etc, that's an officially
recognized ceremony. You don't HAVE to have a second ceremony at city
hall in order for it to be legal.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
...hopefully get my K1 visa quickly, head back to the US, go to
the city hall where we will get married legally then andthen adjust
status. Now this is all legal right?.



Hi Dolf,



They will absolutely NOT issue you with a K-1 visa if they think there
is even a remote chance that you already got married....church ceremony
or otherwise. In the States, a religious ceremony is just as legal as a
civil ceremony . I know this has been a problem for people who stage a
'non-legal' wedding ceremony before getting their K-1. Don't do it, it
will potentially cause all sorts of trouble.



It was not wise to make arrangements for your wedding before getting
your visa. This has been repeated time and again on this forum. No one
can know for sure the timing of this process, and to assume you will
have your visa in time for your planned wedding date is foolish at best.



I have to say, you do not seem very willing to take advice from anyone
here - people who know the ins and outs of this process like the back of
their hands. That's a shame, because if you continue on as you propose,
you might be putting yourself through alot of trouble and heartache.



Good luck.



-kate


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

In time for what?

In time to get there in time to marry! Everything is already arranged.
And when I went to the city hall in Waukesha, WI the gave me a paper
for what I need to get married legal. And that wasn't a K1 visa, they
never heard of that and sure didn't know more about it. This has
already been a point where I feel that this whole visa happening is
surely not based on expertise! Everybody has his or her own thoughts
about it and it seems that more roads lead to Rome.

And to get to most of the people who say it is illegal. I really
believe that it is not illegal. When I go to the US and marry there, I
can file for a permanent residence. I really don't know what is
illegal about that.

But to come back to my question, in all of your replys I haven't heard
one anwers to my question yet, only people telling that I shouldn't go
this way and I appriciate that. But how do I cancel it?

Thank you for all your replies....and thx for the DutchAmerican
website link!!!





Well you obviously don't want to hear anything anyone says so go ahead
and do it, it's your mess you sort it out.



What you are doing clearly flys in the face of the whole process so if
you feel you are above the system then do it, but don't come back here
crying when it all goes pear shaped.



Rob


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

cindyabs wrote:
Dolf, In the US a marriage "before the church" IS a legal marriage. If a legally recognized person performs a marriage ceremony over you, whether it's a minister, priest, rabbi etc, etc, that's an officially recognized ceremony. You don't HAVE to have a second ceremony at city hall in order for it to be legal.

I beg to to differ. If you don't "go downtown" and get a marriage
license then if you have a marriage ceremony at a church you are *not*
married.

--
2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.

katooli wrote:
They will absolutely NOT issue you with a K-1 visa if they think there is even a remote chance that you already got married....church ceremony or otherwise. In the States, a religious ceremony is just as legal as a civil ceremony.

I have never heard that a religious only ceremony is considered legal
and binding in court. I doubt that it is. Where did you hear this? I've
always thought that here in the US the church is NOT part of the government.
I know this has been a problem for people who stage a 'non-legal' wedding ceremony before getting their K-1. Don't do it, it will potentially cause all sorts of trouble.

Many people have a religious ceremony in a foreign land without any
problems. As long as it is not legally a marriage and not binding on you
the USCIS does not care.
I have to say, you do not seem very willing to take advice from anyone here

Actually considering that often the advice is incorrect I don't blame him.
- people who know the ins and outs of this process like the back of their hands. That's a shame, because if you continue on as you propose, you might be putting yourself through alot of trouble and heartache.

His last proposal was legal and just find - many immigrating fiance's do
that with no trouble whatsowever.

--
If you can read this I can hit my brakes and sue you.

Originally posted by Andrew Defaria
cindyabs wrote:

Dolf,
In the US a marriage "before the church" IS a legal marriage. If a
legally recognized person performs a marriage ceremony over you,
whether it's a minister, priest, rabbi etc, etc, that's an officially
recognized ceremony. You don't HAVE to have a second ceremony at city
hall in order for it to be legal.

I beg to to differ. If you don't "go downtown" and get a marriage
license then if you have a marriage ceremony at a church you are *not*
married.

--
2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.





Beg all you want Andrew, ;) you stated the obvious which I took as a
given, however what I think Dolf was thinking of was that a church
wedding was not a "real" wedding, being ceremonial rather than legal.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

As long as your wedding is not conducted with a marriage certificate,
then it would be only a blessings ceremony and not a legal binding
marriage. At least that is how I would see it.



However, since you would and are planning on returning to Amsterdam with
your "non-legal bride" why don't you call the US Consulate in Amsterdam
and discuss this with them. I still think since you will have to do the
medical and the police clearance and compilation of all other forms of
documentation required that you might well be better served to do the
DCF I-130 at the US Consulate instead of going through the K-1 route.
The advantages to you doing this are many fold and can only make your
future life in the US so much easier and cost efficient. You can do a
lot of the leg work now, i.e. medical, long form birth certificate, etc.
and only have to wait out the interview date with the US Consulate after
they get your police clearance. I believe in the Netherlands the US
Consulate are the ones that have to apply for that for you.



Give them a call and do a little more thinking. The K-1 road is easier
than other avenues but it is froth with problems. Particular if you
want to work asap when you get here. There is the issue of applying for
an EAD since unless you get the stamp (only available at the JFK
airport) which is only good for 90 days and a social security number you
need the one year one that you file for after marriage and when you file
for AOS. The one year EAD takes a maximum of 90 days to obtain. And
that leads to the issue of driver's licenses which some states will not
give you unless you have a one year EAD and/or a green card. There is
so much involved and entering the US as a Conditional Permanent Resident
will make things so much easier on you.



think about it.



Rete





Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
Rete <member167@british_expats.com> wrote in message news:<1141691.1072869013@britishexpats.com>...


Thank you Rete for your information. We (my fiancee and I) think about
doing the next thing, and we think it's legal this way. When I go
there to marry her, we will only get married before the church and not
officially at the city hall, that would be possible right? We just let
the K1 application going how it is and wait for the time for me to go
to the US embassy in Amsterdam, Netherlands. I will quickly take a
trip to Amsterdam for their scheduled appointment then run through
that...hopefully get my K1 visa quickly, head back to the US, go to
the city hall where we will get married legally then andthen adjust
status. Now this is all legal right?
We will go to the Netherlands about 3 weeks after our wedding anyways,
would there be a possibility that the US embassy the possible earlier
scheduled appointment postpone to when I come to the Netherlands when
I ask them?


Well this till so far....thank you all so much already.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Andrew Defaria
Actually considering that often the advice is incorrect I don't blame him.





Really? Hmmmmm I will not comment further.



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

If you go for a church wedding, with the intention of it not being
legally binding, then be absolutely sure that the priest/minister
understands that you want that.

A church blessing is fine, that has no legal recognition, but many
priests will not undertake a blessing until AFTER the marriage. However,
certain words and phrases in the actual wedding service make it a legal
ceremony, so discuss with the priest beforehand exactly what you
want/need.



Pollyana


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Pollyana
If you go for a church wedding, with the intention of it not being legally binding, then be absolutely sure that the priest/minister understands that you want that.
A church blessing is fine, that has no legal recognition, but many priests will not undertake a blessing until AFTER the marriage. However, certain words and phrases in the actual wedding service make it a legal ceremony, so discuss with the priest beforehand exactly what you want/need.

Pollyana





Perhaps this is so in some countries but in the US unless the officiant
has the marriage license and signs it after the ceremony and sends/takes
it in for registration, a religious ceremony is nothing more than that
... a ceremony without any legal basis in the eyes of the state where
performed.



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

cindyabs wrote:
Beg all you want Andrew, ;) you stated the obvious which I took as a given, however what I think Dolf was thinking of was that a church wedding was not a "real" wedding, being ceremonial rather than legal.

Since you don't seem to want to believe me let me quote from another
here who happens to also be a paralegal (I believe), Rete:

Perhaps this is so in some countries but in the US unless the
officiant has the marriage license and signs it after the ceremony
and sends/takes it in for registration, a religious ceremony is
nothing more than that .. a ceremony without any legal basis in the
eyes of the state where performed.


--
I was hitchhiking the other day, and a hearse stopped. I said, "No
thanks - I'm not going that far."

Dear Kate,
As you can see it is not very easy to do what everybody says, because
everybody seems to differ and it sure is not like how you say:
you do not seem very willing to take advice from anyone here - people who know the ins and outs of this process like the back of their hands

Let me remind you that we are not going to cancel the K1 visa, you
could have read that in an earlier reply by me:
We just let the K1 application going how it is and wait for the time for me > to go to the US embassy in Amsterdam, Netherlands. I will quickly take a trip to Amsterdam for their scheduled appointment then run through that...hopefully get my K1 visa quickly

And I sure do appriciate all the information that I get and I sure do
not go my own way in this! I didn't go through getting a visa before
and it is all new to me and I don't know how everything goes. Besides
that, I'm not an American so for me it's even harder to know what it
legal binding and what is not, this when I refer to the church
ceremony as being a for the law legal wedding.

I thank you what for the advice you have given me, but although we
know and did the whole thing wrong and in reverse as I interpret you
correctly, which you would have done better without a doubt, we are
just human who make mistakes. We thought we knew enough so we took
those steps, in our eyes the right thing.
I guess that prayer is going to be the only solution here! And I hope
that the people who will read this will say a prayer for my situation
too.

Thank you all so much already!

thanks again Rete!

I'm still a little confused by going the I-130 route because that
means that I have to cancel the I-129 (K1 visa). And I thought that
this wasn't recommended. I will contact the pastor about our wedding
situation and ask him what he knows about this situation.
I read through the I-130 form, but that means that we have to get
married somewhere first...can we do that then in the US? Or do we need
to do that in the Netherlands. I'll get more into it and look for
answers.

Thank you!


Rete <member167@british_expats.com> wrote in message news:<1143529.1072993917@britishexpats.com>... As long as your wedding is not conducted with a marriage certificate, then it would be only a blessings ceremony and not a legal binding marriage. At least that is how I would see it. However, since you would and are planning on returning to Amsterdam with your "non-legal bride" why don't you call the US Consulate in Amsterdam and discuss this with them. I still think since you will have to do the medical and the police clearance and compilation of all other forms of documentation required that you might well be better served to do the DCF I-130 at the US Consulate instead of going through the K-1 route. The advantages to you doing this are many fold and can only make your future life in the US so much easier and cost efficient. You can do a lot of the leg work now, i.e. medical, long form birth certificate, etc. and only have to wait out the interview date with the US Consulate after they get your police clearance. I believe in the Netherlands the US Consulate are the ones that have to apply for that for you. Give them a call and do a little more thinking. The K-1 road is easier than other avenues but it is froth with problems. Particular if you want to work asap when you get here. There is the issue of applying for an EAD since unless you get the stamp (only available at the JFK airport) which is only good for 90 days and a social security number you need the one year one that you file for after marriage and when you file for AOS. The one year EAD takes a maximum of 90 days to obtain. And that leads to the issue of driver's licenses which some states will not give you unless you have a one year EAD and/or a green card. There is so much involved and entering the US as a Conditional Permanent Resident will make things so much easier on you. think about it. Rete

Originally posted by Andrew Defaria
cindyabs wrote:

Beg all you want Andrew, ;) you stated the obvious which I took as a
given, however what I think Dolf was thinking of was that a church
wedding was not a "real" wedding, being ceremonial rather than legal.

Since you don't seem to want to believe me let me quote from another
here who happens to also be a paralegal (I believe), Rete:

Perhaps this is so in some countries but in the US unless the
officiant has the marriage license and signs it after the ceremony
and sends/takes it in for registration, a religious ceremony is
nothing more than that .. a ceremony without any legal basis in the
eyes of the state where performed.


--
I was hitchhiking the other day, and a hearse stopped. I said, "No
thanks - I'm not going that far."



Andrew, I believe you, for crying out loud, I got married myself twice
here in the US so I am quite well aware of what is legally binding and
what one has to do to make it so! Jeesh!

I still stand by the point I was trying to make to Dolf and this is the
quote from what he replied-it was as I thought.........



"I'm not an American so for me it's even harder to know what it

legal binding and what is not, this when I refer to the church

ceremony as being a for the law legal wedding"


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan
thanks again Rete!

I'm still a little confused by going the I-130 route because that
means that I have to cancel the I-129 (K1 visa). And I thought that
this wasn't recommended. I will contact the pastor about our wedding
situation and ask him what he knows about this situation.
I read through the I-130 form, but that means that we have to get
married somewhere first...can we do that then in the US? Or do we need
to do that in the Netherlands. I'll get more into it and look for
answers.

Thank you!





The only true problem you have is if your fiancee insists on having the
legal wedding in the US. If she does then you might not be allowed
into the US to have that wedding since there is a K-1 pending and the
examiners at the POE will know that you clearly have immigration intent.
You might be able to circumvent the issue by bringing your return ticket
and perhaps one for your new wife as well for after the wedding, the
paperwork from the US Consulate regarding her filing for your I-130
while she is there, etc. But that is a "might" and not a guarantee.



The pastor won't know anything about the USCIS procedures for migrating
but he/she can certainly tell you about the legalities of marriage and
blessings ceremonies.



Eileen has given you the URL for her site which outlines the procedure
for DCF in Amsterdam. She is quite specific on what she and her husband
had to do in order to accomplish this and it is a good site to get a
handle on that procedure.



A suggestion would be to marry her in Amsterdam and then apply and then
have your honeymoon. Then when you can legally free to come to the US
as a conditional permanent resident you can have that lovely church
wedding you two were planning.



Note that there are special documentation that she would need in order
to be free to marry in Amsterdam so you will have to check that out.
Believe that is also covered in Eileen's site.



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Andrew Defaria
If you don't "go downtown" and get a marriage
license then if you have a marriage ceremony at a church you are *not* married.




In 16 states, this is absolutely, positively, FALSE in at least some
circumstances.



Those 16 states recognize common law marriage, which is just as legally
binding as a solemized marriage (including the imposition of the
requirement that to get out of the marriage, you have to have a *legal*
divorce). In most states, you need do little more than hold yourself
out as a married person for a certain period of time to be deemed
married under the laws of that state. You certainly do not need a
license, and having a religious marriage ceremony would probably be all
that you needed to show the intent to enter into a common law marriage,
in those states that do recognize it. Of course, since marriage in one
state is recognized in all other states under the doctrine of full faith
and credit, the fact that one state does not recognize common law
marriages created in its jurisdiction does not mean that it will not
recognize and uphold common law marriages created in a sister state.



Fortunately for the OP, his state of Wisconsin is not one of them.



Blanket statements about what is, and what is not, the law of marriage
in the US are by definition false since marriage is a matter of state,
not federal law. Short of looking at the law in your particular state,
you cannot make a general statement about what is, and what is not,
"married" in the United States.



As far as the OP's 10 foot pole matter, I'm going back into my corner
and refraining from comment.


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
In 16 states, this is absolutely, positively, FALSE in at least some circumstances.







Common law marriage is more than just living together. There is
normally a timeframe in which the couple must co-habitat together in
order for the relationship to be considered common law. It is not
just a matter of going before an officiant and having him/her declare
you married which is exactly what this poster and responses where
dealing with.



BTW NYS does not recognize a common law marriage from another state. In
VA when CM was still legal, NYS did not recognize my daughter's co-
habitation with her CLP of 8 years to be a marriage even if VA did.



Also I wonder if the Federal government would recognize common law
marriage for the sake of immigration. Something tells me no.



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Rete
Also I wonder if the Federal government would recognize common law marriage for the sake of immigration. Something tells me no.
Rete



I thought the rule was that immigration law recognizes marriages based
on the law of the jurisdiciton in which the marriage took place? If that
is indeed the rule, then an otherwise valid common law marriage taking
place in the *US* is something that I do not think the federal
government has the power to ignore, except in certain circumstances
involving dishing out federal money. Obviously, I do not know whether
the laws of other countries have anything like our types of common law
marriage, and thus do not know whether the federal government has to
recognize them. My gut says that if they are legally sufficient
marriages in the country of origin, then BCIS will recognize them. But
obviously, not being an immigration attorney I cannot say this with
certainty. What I do know is that there are many federal statutes
making clear that the federal government must honor a valid marriage
regardless of the place of its origin.


Common law marriage is more than just living together. There is normally a timeframe in which the couple must co-habitat together in order for the relationship to be considered common law. It is not just a matter of going before an officiant and having him/her declare you married which is exactly what this poster and responses where dealing with.

Actually, there is no particular "time frame" required by any of the states recognizing common law. The only test for those states that make an issue of time together is that it must be "significant". However, many states do not make time an issue at all, and focus on cohabitation plus declared intent. (And in a couple, like Alabama, stated intent+consummation=married married married, so you have to be really careful there LOL).

This makes sense, considering that common law marriages cannot be formed unless there is actual *intent* to be married. Intent is the dispositive issue, and is coupled in most common law states with a requirement that your intent be publicly demonstrated by *holding yourself out as a married couple*.

Thus, you can live together 20 years and as long as you never hold yourself out as married to third parties, or express an intent to be considered married, you are not married, even under common law doctrine. In contrast, common law marriages where the parties had the requisite intent and held themselves to others as husband and wife while living in a common law state for a matter of days and weeks have been routinely upheld as valid -- and recognized in other states, including New York (if you like I will send you some NY case cites).

Thus, the situation that the OP describes - going to a religious officiant for a declaration that they are married -- is *precisely* the type of thing that in a common law state *could* result in you being legally married, assuming the other remaining tests for a valid common law marriage in that state are met (i.e. hold yourself out to third parties as being married). It is simply incorrect that they need to live together for any fixed period of time. They do not, in most common law states.

In VA when CM was still legal, NYS did not recognize my daughter's co-habitation with her CLP of 8 years to be a marriage even if VA did.

Cohabitation is not common law marriage and cohabitation without more can *never* result in common law marriage. In any of the states that still recognize it.

As far as your daughter is concerned, the question is "recognize" her cohabitation for what *purpose*, assuming that what you are saying is that she asserted that she was married but New York said she wasn't (it's unclear whether you are in fact saying this, so I'm asking). New York has actually been quite consistent in recognizing as valid and binding common law marriages formed in other states and enforcing the spousal rights of those asserting them when a valid common law marriage has been found.

But therein lies the problem -- New York does not recognize any relationship as a common law marriage that does not qualify under the original state of residence as a common law marriage any more than any other state does. And in every state that recognizes it, there are fixed criteria that need to be met to demonstrate intent. If those requirements are met, the full faith and credit clause *requires* New York to treat a valid Virginia common law marriage as a valid marriage. And New York can get the pants sued off it if it does not for violating the Constitution.

But that doesn't mean that New York has to treat that marriage the same as other marriages in circumstances that do not implicate the natural "incidents of marriage", i.e. certain types of government benefits. That phrase "incidents of marriage" is a legal term of art, and too complicated to explain on an NG. But because of this term of art, to understand why New York behaved as it did in the case of your daughter one has to know more about the context.

But make no mistake - if your daughter was lawfully married based on the then-common law in Virginia, she was lawfully married in New York. And she could not have married anyone else without a formal divorce. That's an critical distinction that most people misunderstand when discussing common law marriage. Marriage is a status, conferred by the state in which the status was created, that no other state can impact short of the legal process of divorce or annulment. Whether or not it doles out money or benefits based on it.


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
But make no mistake - if your daughter was lawfully married based on the then-common law in Virginia, she was lawfully married in New York. And she could not have married anyone else without a formal divorce. That's an critical distinction that most people misunderstand when discussing common law marriage. Marriage is a status, conferred by the state in which the status was created, that no other state can impact short of the legal process of divorce or annulment. Whether or not it doles out money or benefits based on it.



They moved to VA and lived together with both names on the lease and one
checking account for nearly 9 years before getting legally married. At
the time of the divorce VA refused to recognize that they were CL
married the previous years even though CLM was recognized by them at
that time. The issue was that as a couple they transferred all his
debts to her name and then six weeks after the legal ceremony he left
her for another woman and left her with all the debt.



It was an interesting situation and one in which my daughter suffered
badly in the financial area. She was awarded no compensation from the
courts for the absorption of his debt and in the end had to declare
bankruptcy.



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Just when I think I'm learning a little bit about Immigration and US law
I realise I know less than nothing!


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Dekka's Angel



Further into the marriage recognition issue, Canada recognizes Gay
marriages and yet the US federal government does not and those couples
are not allowed to migrate as spouses.



Curious as to the CLM issue though. I realize that a spouse cannot be
made to testify against their spouse. But if the marriage is only CLM
and a crime is committed in the state where the CLM is recognized, is
the CL Spouse accorded the same right not to be forced to testify
against the other?



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

keep a copy of the cancellation letter for your own records. Also send the
cancellation by signature mail...meaning you get a postcard back with the
signature of the person who received your cancellation.
Dolf......read Other Couples on our website. Also read the messageboard
archives on our site.....it will answer alot of your questions. Too bad you
did not have all the information you needed about immigration before you
started the marriage process. But now that your eyes are open, don't pass
up a good thing in the DCF in Amsterdam.
e
"Rete" <member167@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:1141695.1072869248@britishexpats.com... Originally posted by Dolf Van De Baan Hi all, Because I can't get a K1 visa in time, I want to cancel it and when I am in the US, after marriage, I want to apply for permanent residence. Because of what I know, I don't need a K1 visa to get married anyway. But now the problem, how do I cancel it? I hope that someone out here knows how that goes. Already thanks for your effort! Dolf You cancel your pending K-1 by contacting the service center that handled the I-129F and the US Consulate that is handling the K-1 portion and advise them that you are cancelling the petition. Be sure to include a copy of your original notice of action and your A# if you have been assigned one. Note, however, that this information is already on the database and upon entry at the POE this information will be on the screen when your passport is scanned. Be prepared to answer questions regarding your motives for entering the US. Rete -- Posted via http://britishexpats.com