Hi,

I'm a Canadian who went through the K-1 process and now have
conditional permanent residency in the US.

A friend pointed me towards a most fascinating website
(www.debito.org), which is a website by a "caucasian" American who
immigrated to Japan and ultimately was required to renounce his
American citizenship.

From what I've read on his website, it looks like once you naturalize
in the US (and even perhaps when one attains permanent residence
here), that you are forever required to file US taxes, and are subject
to US laws such as how estate taxes are handled, even if (say) you're
60 and have only ever been in the US a single day at birth.

Ultimately I plan on gaining US Citizenship and then me and my wife
will move to Canada and have her gain Canadian citizenship, which
would give us the ability to live and work anywhere in either
country as we choose. On reading this website I must say that
I'm not sure it's the best thing perhaps for me to try and
get US citizenship.

My questions are 1: what are the consequences to gaining US
Citizenship from a (canadian) immigrant's point of view, if I (with my
wife) move back to Canada in the future, and 2: do those consequences
still exist if I only gain permanent residency and not citizenship?,
and 3: if my wife decides at some point to renounce her american
citizenship (she's american by birth and has no plans to, but
obviously things can change over time), how will that affect things as
well?

And other thoughts/opinions are welcome as well.

Thanks,
Gregg

Hi,

I am in a similar situation as you. Now, I am eligible to apply for US
citizenship, but the situation with taxes is just outrageous.
I plan to see a tax attorney before I apply because eventually my husband and I
plan to move back to my country or go somewhere else.
I find extremelly inconvenient the fact that you have to pay taxes even if you
are not getting income from the US.
I have asked many Americans about this...and they don't know that taxes are
based on their citizenship!
Now, I do not know if as a permanent resident I am subject to the same tax laws
if I leave the US..that scares me.
It would be wonderful to become a US citizen...but what is the price tag for
it?..too high?

M

There's a difference between what the US Govt wants you to do and what's
actually done. I've lived outside the US on and off for 15 years and
only filed occasionally. Since I work in a country that has a tax treaty
with the US, there's all kinds of wonderful small stuff to get tied up
on what is actually taxable or not. I've always paid local taxes, so if
the IRS ever did catch up with me, I'll have a stack of paperwork to
show along with wonderful arguments that they were owed no taxes.



Now, there are some things which you can get taxed on (such as capital
gains), but a little discrete manovering keeps things well below Uncle
Sam's radar. The IRS has a hard time with all the people in the US, let
alone those who live overseas. Then there are the tax treaties which few
at the IRS are even aware of. (Be prepared and do the research.)



I've never owed any tax from being overseas (well, not that I could see
anyway), and always have been well under the $78,000 US tax minimum. (On
the other hand, this is a law which can work in your favor.) Now that I
have a foreign better half, I simply file the back paperwork to get her
a DCS green card for when we travel back and forth. (Trust me, I've gone
through the details on this one.)



If you look at the laws, then there is a hefty section that is very
vague about what happens when you give up your US citizenship, including
being barred from the country. (This wonderful tidbit helped me get a
second passport in Europe.)



Get the US passport, then have a wonderful time overseas. If you remain
a permanent resident, then you remain subject to whatever idiocy is
being foisted by whatever acronym-of-the-month the INS is going by.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

I have to second this one.




"Kocourkov" <member17536@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:1080912.1069662974@britishexpats.com... There's a difference between what the US Govt wants you to do and what's actually done. I've lived outside the US on and off for 15 years and only filed occasionally. Since I work in a country that has a tax treaty with the US, there's all kinds of wonderful small stuff to get tied up on what is actually taxable or not. I've always paid local taxes, so if the IRS ever did catch up with me, I'll have a stack of paperwork to show along with wonderful arguments that they were owed no taxes. Now, there are some things which you can get taxed on (such as capital gains), but a little discrete manovering keeps things well below Uncle Sam's radar. The IRS has a hard time with all the people in the US, let alone those who live overseas. Then there are the tax treaties which few at the IRS are even aware of. (Be prepared and do the research.) I've never owed any tax from being overseas (well, not that I could see anyway), and always have been well under the $78,000 US tax minimum. (On the other hand, this is a law which can work in your favor.) Now that I have a foreign better half, I simply file the back paperwork to get her a DCS green card for when we travel back and forth. (Trust me, I've gone through the details on this one.) If you look at the laws, then there is a hefty section that is very vague about what happens when you give up your US citizenship, including being barred from the country. (This wonderful tidbit helped me get a second passport in Europe.) Get the US passport, then have a wonderful time overseas. If you remain a permanent resident, then you remain subject to whatever idiocy is being foisted by whatever acronym-of-the-month the INS is going by. -- Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Interesting questions...

I look forward to reading more answers. :)


--
~ Simon &amp; Vik ~


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Me too. Especially the tax issues.



This is one reason why my wife will not be getting US citizenship.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Mona,



Good idea to see that tax attorney, or a good tax accountant.



If you are required to file an income tax return as a US citizen or
Permanent Resident, there is a Foreign Earned Income Exclusion that
is $80,000 for 2003. The amount has been increased by about $2,000
every year.



See IRS Publication 54, Tax Guide for US Citizens and Permanent
Residents Abroad.



Regards, JEff



Originally posted by Monabellar
Hi,

I plan to see a tax attorney ...

I find extremelly inconvenient the fact that you have to pay taxes even if you are not getting income from the US....


M


--
&quot;Of course, the Internet also tells us that hot naked women want to befriend us, so we can't be 100% sure about everything we read there.&quot; (Dave Barry)


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

DCMark wrote:
Me too. Especially the tax issues.
This is one reason why my wife will not be getting US citizenship.

As A PR, she would be subject to the same tax as a citizen.
Additionally, I believe there are estate tax consequences for a non citizen.

You are assuming we plan to live in the US forever. Not the case.





Originally posted by Mrtravel
DCMark wrote:

Me too. Especially the tax issues.

This is one reason why my wife will not be getting US citizenship.

As A PR, she would be subject to the same tax as a citizen.

Additionally, I believe there are estate tax consequences for a non
citizen.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

DCMark wrote: You are assuming we plan to live in the US forever. Not the case.

Well, until she abandons the green card, it would apply.

No ****. That has everything to do with why she does not want
citizenship. So the tax law does not follow her.





Originally posted by Mrtravel
DCMark wrote:
You are assuming we plan to live in the US forever. Not the case.



Well, until she abandons the green card, it would apply.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

"Monabellar" wrote:
I have asked many Americans about this...and they don't know that taxes are based on their citizenship!

Actually, my impression has been that many Americans not only
realize US tax liability is based on citizenship, but go on
to assume (incorrectly) that this is the worldwide norm (e.g.,
that dual citizenship automatically implies double taxation
regardless of place of residence or source of income).

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Monabellar wrote: Hi, I am in a similar situation as you. Now, I am eligible to apply for US citizenship, but the situation with taxes is just outrageous. I plan to see a tax attorney before I apply because eventually my husband and I plan to move back to my country or go somewhere else. I find extremelly inconvenient the fact that you have to pay taxes even if you are not getting income from the US.

In most cases the income exclusion prevents the USC who lives abroad
from having to pay US tax. One must (or is supposed to) file a return
every year, however. Hardly an onerous requirement given the potential
advantages of US citizenship, in my opinion. Of course, a permanent
resident is not required to become a US citizen.

Rich Wales wrote:
"Monabellar" wrote: I have asked many Americans about this...and they don't know that taxes are based on their citizenship! Actually, my impression has been that many Americans not only realize US tax liability is based on citizenship, but go on to assume (incorrectly) that this is the worldwide norm (e.g., that dual citizenship automatically implies double taxation regardless of place of residence or source of income).

Not really double taxation.. Just meeting your US obligation.
If you are a USC or permanent resident, then you are obligated to
support the US government... Makes sense, doesn't it?
Foreign taxes paid can be deducted, and you get a $80K income exclusion.
If the US taxes are higher than the foreign taxes, you end up paying
more than just the foreign tax. If the foreign taxes are higher, then
you wouldn't pay anything (generally) to the US for foreign income.

Not really double taxation.. Just meeting your US obligation.
If you are a USC or permanent resident, then you are obligated to
support the US government... Makes sense, doesn't it?






No, it does not make sense, not in the least. If the state of Wyoming
passes a law that says that all people with that state's driver's
license must wear clown hats, irregardless of where they are, do you
really think that I'm going to comply? No.



And I do not support the US government, not one damn iota.



The American people still have friends in Europe, but the government is
by and large despised if not hated. The fastest way for you to lose any
if not all of your friends over here right now is to slap a flag on your
forehead and run around singing the praises of the current US
government.



Let's say I spend five years building a business in Belgium. Then I sell
it. No capital gains tax on my investment in Belgium, yet the US
Government wants 20%. Besides the potential legal consequences, what
possible reason would I have for paying them? What possible benefits
would I get? None. The business didn't happen on US territory, had no US
source income, nada. If a bunch of rioting Flemish burn my American
business to the ground is the US govt going to intervene? No.



My government does precious little to support me, so I see precious
little reason to support it.



In fact, I see a pattern in the behavior of the US govt at present where
it asks everything of of others, and yet wants to give nothing in return
and have its way all the time. Bad, bad, bad for international relations
and trade.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Lots of people have dual us/canadian citizenships.



-= nav =-


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:03:42 GMT, mrtravel <mrt@mrtxm.com> wrote:DCMark wrote: Me too. Especially the tax issues. This is one reason why my wife will not be getting US citizenship.As A PR, she would be subject to the same tax as a citizen.Additionally, I believe there are estate tax consequences for a non citizen.

If I'm not mistaken, if you're a PR, and your spouse dies, you DO pay
an estate tax no matter what your income/worth. That (mostly) goes
away once you become a citizen. I'm going from memory here, so I
could be wrong.

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:34:23 +0000, DCMark
<member6276@british_expats.com> wrote:
No ****. That has everything to do with why she does not wantcitizenship. So the tax law does not follow her.Originally posted by Mrtravel DCMark wrote: You are assuming we plan to live in the US forever. Not the case.Well, until she abandons the green card, it would apply.

A problem I can see is that the tax law will still follow the US
citizen. Not a problem if you both never intend (and never do) set
foot on US soil again, but if you (for instance) "declined" to pay
estate taxes or some other money that the US govt feels you owe it,
then next time you enter the US (perhaps to deal with a family
emergency), they would get you for tax evasion. And it sounds like
renouncing your citizenship would actually make things *worse*.

But I could be wrong. IANAL and all that..

Personally, I do not plan to renounce my citizenship and plan to obey
the law as much (at the same time as little) as possible. When the
time comes I will be consulting with a tax attorney I think.



My parents had huge problems with the state of Virginia in the 70s and
80s while they were overseas.





Originally posted by A Person
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:34:23 +0000, DCMark
<member6276@british_expats.com> wrote:

No ****. That has everything to do with why she does not want
citizenship. So the tax law does not follow her.
Originally posted by Mrtravel
DCMark wrote:
> You are assuming we plan to live in the US forever. Not the
case.
Well, until she abandons the green card, it would apply.

A problem I can see is that the tax law will still follow the US
citizen. Not a problem if you both never intend (and never do) set
foot on US soil again, but if you (for instance) "declined" to pay
estate taxes or some other money that the US govt feels you owe it,
then next time you enter the US (perhaps to deal with a family
emergency), they would get you for tax evasion. And it sounds like
renouncing your citizenship would actually make things *worse*.


But I could be wrong. IANAL and all that..


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Kocourkov wrote:
Not really double taxation.. Just meeting your US obligation.If you are a USC or permanent resident, then you are obligated tosupport the US government... Makes sense, doesn't it?
No, it does not make sense, not in the least. If the state of Wyoming passes a law that says that all people with that state's driver's license must wear clown hats, irregardless of where they are, do you really think that I'm going to comply? No.

What does wearing a clown hat have to do with paying taxes to maintain
the government?
And I do not support the US government, not one damn iota.

You are free to renounce your citizenship and leave.j

A Person wrote: A problem I can see is that the tax law will still follow the US citizen. Not a problem if you both never intend (and never do) set foot on US soil again, but if you (for instance) "declined" to pay estate taxes

How would you decline to pay estate taxes?? Aren't they taken from the
estate?

> > I have asked many Americans about this...and they don't know that taxes are based on their citizenship! Actually, my impression has been that many Americans not only realize US tax liability is based on citizenship, but go on to assume (incorrectly) that this is the worldwide norm (e.g., that dual citizenship automatically implies double taxation regardless of place of residence or source of income). Not really double taxation.. Just meeting your US obligation. If you are a USC or permanent resident, then you are obligated to support the US government... Makes sense, doesn't it?

Another argument that equally make sense is that
when a US citizen lives abroad then he is not receiving
the majority of benefits that US taxes support, so
why pay for something you're not receiving.

Plus, very few countries follow the US policy of
taxing non-resident citizens based solely on citizenship,
the most significant one being the Philippines. Nearly
every other country imposes worldwide taxation on their
"residents", not their citizens.

In the end it's matter of political philosophy.
Foreign taxes paid can be deducted,

Yes, you can normally subtract foreign taxes paid on
foreign sourced income from any US taxes due on that
income.
and you get a $80K income exclusion.

The foreign earned income exclusion generally
applies only to salary, not other types of income.
If the US taxes are higher than the foreign taxes, you end up paying more than just the foreign tax. If the foreign taxes are higher, then you wouldn't pay anything (generally) to the US for foreign income.

Correct.

Stephen Gallagher

> "Monabellar" wrote: I have asked many Americans about this...and they don't know that taxes are based on their citizenship! Actually, my impression has been that many Americans not only realize US tax liability is based on citizenship, but go on to assume (incorrectly) that this is the worldwide norm (e.g., that dual citizenship automatically implies double taxation regardless of place of residence or source of income). Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

In my experience, most of the Americans living in the US,
to whom I've spoken personally on this issue (that US
citizens who live abroad are always subject to US taxes on
their worldwide income), have never even thought about
that issue, and so had no opinion.

Stephen Gallagher

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:27:18 GMT, mrtravel <mrt@mrtxm.com> wrote:
A Person wrote: A problem I can see is that the tax law will still follow the US citizen. Not a problem if you both never intend (and never do) set foot on US soil again, but if you (for instance) "declined" to pay estate taxesHow would you decline to pay estate taxes?? Aren't they taken from theestate?

It's my understanding that Canada (where I'm from) has no estate
taxes.

mrtravel <mrt@mrtxm.com> wrote in message news:<qxKwb.53999$bn7.53464@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>... A Person wrote: A problem I can see is that the tax law will still follow the US citizen. Not a problem if you both never intend (and never do) set foot on US soil again, but if you (for instance) "declined" to pay estate taxes How would you decline to pay estate taxes?? Aren't they taken from the estate?

If the estate exists outside of US jurisdiction, then the US would not
be able to "take" the taxes. They can still levy a tax bill on the estate,
of course.

Stephen Gallagher

A Person wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:27:18 GMT, mrtravel <mrt@mrtxm.com> wrote:A Person wrote:A problem I can see is that the tax law will still follow the UScitizen. Not a problem if you both never intend (and never do) setfoot on US soil again, but if you (for instance) "declined" to payestate taxesHow would you decline to pay estate taxes?? Aren't they taken from theestate? It's my understanding that Canada (where I'm from) has no estate taxes.

But we are talking about US citizenship vs not being a USC

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
mrtravel <mrt@mrtxm.com> wrote in message news:<qxKwb.53999$bn7.53464@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>...A Person wrote:A problem I can see is that the tax law will still follow the UScitizen. Not a problem if you both never intend (and never do) setfoot on US soil again, but if you (for instance) "declined" to payestate taxesHow would you decline to pay estate taxes?? Aren't they taken from theestate? If the estate exists outside of US jurisdiction, then the US would not be able to "take" the taxes. They can still levy a tax bill on the estate, of course.

Why would their be an estate tax on property outside of the US?

> Personally, I do not plan to renounce my citizenship and plan to obey the law as much (at the same time as little) as possible. When the time comes I will be consulting with a tax attorney I think. My parents had huge problems with the state of Virginia in the 70s and 80s while they were overseas.

That's probably because Virginia does not end a person's
resident status in that state unless and until he takes up residence
in another US state. They don't view the absence as being a
permanent move because someone who moves abroad from Virginia
obviously must be planning to come back some day. No US citizen
moves from the US on permanent basis.

Because of this, when a person moves from Virginia, to another
country, his worldwide income is subject to Virginia state taxes.
They will allow him to exclude any foreign income that the federal
government allows him to exclude. There is, however, no credit allowed
for foreign taxes paid, when dealing with Virginia state income tax.

Stephen Gallagher

Thank you Steven. I really appreicate that response. Are you a
tax attorney.



How does Washington, DC handle this issue???



Originally posted by Stephen Gallagher
Personally, I do not plan to renounce my citizenship and plan to obey
the law as much (at the same time as little) as possible. When the
time comes I will be consulting with a tax attorney I think.



My parents had huge problems with the state of Virginia in the 70s and
80s while they were overseas.

That's probably because Virginia does not end a person's
resident status in that state unless and until he takes up residence
in another US state. They don't view the absence as being a
permanent move because someone who moves abroad from Virginia
obviously must be planning to come back some day. No US citizen
moves from the US on permanent basis.

Because of this, when a person moves from Virginia, to another
country, his worldwide income is subject to Virginia state taxes.
They will allow him to exclude any foreign income that the federal
government allows him to exclude. There is, however, no credit allowed
for foreign taxes paid, when dealing with Virginia state income tax.


Stephen Gallagher


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Stephen Gallagher
Personally, I do not plan to renounce my citizenship and plan to obey
the law as much (at the same time as little) as possible. When the
time comes I will be consulting with a tax attorney I think.



My parents had huge problems with the state of Virginia in the 70s and
80s while they were overseas.

That's probably because Virginia does not end a person's
resident status in that state unless and until he takes up residence
in another US state. They don't view the absence as being a
permanent move because someone who moves abroad from Virginia
obviously must be planning to come back some day. No US citizen
moves from the US on permanent basis.

Because of this, when a person moves from Virginia, to another
country, his worldwide income is subject to Virginia state taxes.
They will allow him to exclude any foreign income that the federal
government allows him to exclude. There is, however, no credit allowed
for foreign taxes paid, when dealing with Virginia state income tax.

Stephen Gallagher



Hi:



My legal mind is LOL -- but a good friend of mine is admitted in the Old
Dominion and always reminds me Virgina is a different country which is
not so sure the Civil War ended.



I vaguely recall that US Citizen expat has given up their right to
access Federal Court via diversity jurisidiction. And you have to
wonder about the first sentence of the 14th Amendment.



Any case law on this little gem?


--
Certified Specialist
Immigration &amp; Nat. Law
Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
That's probably because Virginia does not end a person's resident status in that state unless and until he takes up residence in another US state. . . because someone who moves abroad from Virginia obviously must be planning to come back some day.

Actually, it turns out that the above may not be true in practice.
I did some research on this question last July.

It's true that the Virginia tax office's web site has material in
its FAQ section which explicitly says that someone who moves from
Virginia to a foreign country (as opposed to moving to another US
state) will always be deemed to maintain a Virginia domicile (and
the accompanying liability for Virginia taxes), even after many
years living outside the US.

However, there does not appear to be any statutory basis for this
interpretation in Virginia's tax code.

Further, the "Policy Library" section of their web site contains
numerous rulings from Virginia's tax commissioner, in which
ex-Virginians who moved abroad and established permanent homes
in foreign countries were held =not= to be residents of Virginia
for tax purposes.

I e-mailed the Virginia Tax Customer Service office last July,
pointing out this apparent contradiction and asking what the real
situation was. I got the following reply:

"If you would have moved abroad from Virginia and you had no ties
to Virginia with no intention of returning to Virginia you would
not be held liable for Virginia taxes."

So, it would appear that Virginia's rules on tax domicile relating
to international moves may in fact be more conventional than might
appear based solely on the FAQ part of their tax office's web site.
FWIW, that FAQ is still there, unchanged since July, despite my
correspondence with their customer service office.

Disclaimer: I am not a tax lawyer (or, for that matter, any other
sort of lawyer). I also don't live in Virginia, nor have I ever
lived there (or, for that matter, even so much as set foot there).

Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

MrTravel please stay home, it's people like you that reinforce
stereotypes when they set foot abroad.



I never said 'tax avoidance', I say 'tax miminalization'. There's enough
stuff out there to tie things up in legal knots that no one can get out
of. Likewise, I also said that there are times when the US tax
configuration can be used to your advantage.



Remember that the IRS recently told European tax services to shove off
when they asked for data on Europeans living in the US. But then the
IRS turns around and sometimes ask for info (non-criminal related) to
go on fishing expeditions for Americans living abroad. Don't think they
got very far.



As for Virginia, har har har. I had a license some years ago that had my
Slovak address on it. State trooper pulled me over, I said ' I live in
Europe speed limits are higher', he replied ' Sure right', saw the
license and said 'Well, you're right, I ain't never seen one of these
before, drive slower... and welcome back for the holidays'. Rock on....


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

mrtravel <mrt@mrtxm.com> wrote in message news:<aZRwb.54114$7c3.13988@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>... Stephen Gallagher wrote: mrtravel <mrt@mrtxm.com> wrote in message news:<qxKwb.53999$bn7.53464@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>...A Person wrote:>A problem I can see is that the tax law will still follow the US>citizen. Not a problem if you both never intend (and never do) set>foot on US soil again, but if you (for instance) "declined" to pay>estate taxesHow would you decline to pay estate taxes?? Aren't they taken from theestate? If the estate exists outside of US jurisdiction, then the US would not be able to "take" the taxes. They can still levy a tax bill on the estate, of course. Why would their be an estate tax on property outside of the US?

Because US estate tax falls upon the worldwide estate of
any US citizen, the same as US income tax falls upon his
worldwide income.

Originally posted by Kocourkov
MrTravel please stay home, it's people like you that reinforce stereotypes when they set foot abroad.

I never said 'tax avoidance', I say 'tax miminalization'. There's enough stuff out there to tie things up in legal knots that no one can get out of. Likewise, I also said that there are times when the US tax configuration can be used to your advantage.

Remember that the IRS recently told European tax services to shove off when they asked for data on Europeans living in the US. But then the IRS turns around and sometimes ask for info (non-criminal related) to go on fishing expeditions for Americans living abroad. Don't think they got very far.

As for Virginia, har har har. I had a license some years ago that had my Slovak address on it. State trooper pulled me over, I said ' I live in Europe speed limits are higher', he replied ' Sure right', saw the license and said 'Well, you're right, I ain't never seen one of these before, drive slower... and welcome back for the holidays'. Rock on....



Hi:



I will not comment on the merits of your arguments -- after all,
taxation is a political issue subject to reasonable and unreasonable
debate [the old political parody being -- "Don't tax you, don't tax me,
tax that fellow out there behind the tree"]



But your use of the language has me LOL. You say "tax minimalization"
-- OK, that is universal, everyone does that or should. However, there
are two methods of "tax minimalization" and you seem to object to the
legal one. I am amused.



Take care.


--
Certified Specialist
Immigration &amp; Nat. Law
Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

By tax mimimalization, I mean that you can buy a digital camera in New
York, which will have 8% sales tax, or in the Netherlands, which will
have 21% tax. Go figure where you should buy it. When you bring it back
to your home in Europe, you can say 'Oh yeah, I bought this in the US'
and pay your 21% VAT, or you can sneak it in and have other money which
you may use to take your better half out for dinner.



If you know the levels of taxes in Europe, like 50% starting at $43,000,
not to mention 50% on bonuses and a VAT of 21%, then you can bet that
the only way to keep any of your money is to take advantage of the
wrinkles in the system.



Now, do you really think that I'm going to simply say "Oh yes Uncle Sam,
please have another 25% of my salary!" I'll have nothing left for my
student loans.



Not paying taxes is avoidance. Using laws and opportunities afforded by
legal haze and overlapping jurisdictions only makes sense; that is
miminalization.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Kocourkov
By tax mimimalization, I mean that you can buy a digital camera in New York, which will have 8% sales tax, or in the Netherlands, which will have 21% tax. Go figure where you should buy it. When you bring it back to your home in Europe, you can say 'Oh yeah, I bought this in the US' and pay your 21% VAT, or you can sneak it in and have other money which you may use to take your better half out for dinner.

If you know the levels of taxes in Europe, like 50% starting at $43,000, not to mention 50% on bonuses and a VAT of 21%, then you can bet that the only way to keep any of your money is to take advantage of the wrinkles in the system.

Now, do you really think that I'm going to simply say "Oh yes Uncle Sam, please have another 25% of my salary!" I'll have nothing left for my student loans.

Not paying taxes is avoidance. Using laws and opportunities afforded by legal haze and overlapping jurisdictions only makes sense; that is miminalization.



Hi:



Sigh. Now I know why I stayed out of this conversation. Frequent
inhabitants of this NG will know my stongly held position on the "ten-
foot pole" question. The same rules apply to me here. [I was employed
by a tax firm right out of law school for two years. When I went out
on my own, I started doing immigration and the rest is history and lot
more fun!].



In working in the tax firm, ALL of our clients had "tax
minimalization" as their goal. And the ONLY portion of
"minimalization" that we could do was "tax avoidance." If a lawyer
does anything in what you call "minimalization" that is NOT
"avoidance", then the LAWYER can get in trouble.



To be blunt, if anyone is to go to jail for breaking the law, it had
better be the client and not his or her lawyer. A lawyer can't enter
into a conspiracy to break the law.


--
Certified Specialist
Immigration &amp; Nat. Law
Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Kocourkov
By tax mimimalization, I mean that you can buy a digital camera in New York, which will have 8% sales tax, or in the Netherlands, which will have 21% tax. Go figure where you should buy it. When you bring it back to your home in Europe, you can say 'Oh yeah, I bought this in the US' and pay your 21% VAT, or you can sneak it in and have other money which you may use to take your better half out for dinner.

If you know the levels of taxes in Europe, like 50% starting at $43,000, not to mention 50% on bonuses and a VAT of 21%, then you can bet that the only way to keep any of your money is to take advantage of the wrinkles in the system.

Now, do you really think that I'm going to simply say "Oh yes Uncle Sam, please have another 25% of my salary!" I'll have nothing left for my student loans.

Not paying taxes is avoidance. Using laws and opportunities afforded by legal haze and overlapping jurisdictions only makes sense; that is miminalization.



Hi:



Sigh. Now I know why I stayed out of this conversation. Frequent
inhabitants of this NG will know my stongly held position on the "ten-
foot pole" question. The same rules apply to me here. [I was employed
by a tax firm right out of law school for two years. When I went out
on my own, I started doing immigration and the rest is history and lot
more fun!].



In working in the tax firm, ALL of our clients had "tax
minimalization" as their goal. And the ONLY portion of
"minimalization" that we could do was "tax avoidance." If a lawyer
does anything in what you call "minimalization" that is NOT
"avoidance", then the LAWYER can get in trouble.



To be blunt, if anyone is to go to jail for breaking the law, it had
better be the client and not his or her lawyer. A lawyer can't enter
into a conspiracy to break the law.


--
Certified Specialist
Immigration &amp; Nat. Law
Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

I worked tax for a couple of years for Coopers & Lybrand in Europe.
Inside Europe and inside the US are two vastly different
questions.......


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com