The American Bar Association has called on Attorney General Ashcroft to
reconsider the changes made to the procedures implemented at the Board of
Immigration Appeals (BIA) in 2002 in an effort to reduce the backlog of
cases.



Where decisions of Immigration Judges were reviewed by three-judge panels of
the BIA, now many, if not most, appeals are decided by a single judge.
Where the BIA panels were required to provide reasons for their decisions,
now many appeals are now decided using a standard one-paragraph summary
affirmance. The new rules place a premium on speed rather than on reaching
a just result. The majority of "liberal" judges have been quietly purged
from the BIA.



The results are that where 25% of appeals were once successful, the number
has dropped to 10%. Predictably, the percentage of BIA decisions appealed
to the Federal Courts has tripled, moving the backlog from the BIA to the
Courts. The big losers are persons with meritorious cases who can not
afford knowledgeable and experienced attorneys, and those with cases that
the Federal Courts no longer have the authority to review.



We link to the ABA press release from http://shusterman.com



We will discuss this matter in more detail in the November 2003 issue of our
free, e-mail newsletter, SHUSTERMAN'S IMMIGRATION UPDATE.

*********************

Carl Shusterman served as a Trial Attorney for the U.S. Immigration Service
(1976-82) before entering private practice. He heads a four-attorney firm
specializing exclusively in immigration law. He maintains an extensive
website entitled "Immigration: A Practical Guide to Immigrating to the U.S."
containing over 1,000 articles on all phases of immigration law. He is the
author of SHUSTERMAN'S IMMIGRATION UPDATE, a free, monthly e-mail newsletter
on immigration laws and procedures. You can subscribe online at
http://shusterman.com/subscribe.html

"Carl Shusterman" <carl.shusterman@gte.net> wrote in message news:<0PJkb.29467$mp1.9493@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... The big losers are persons with meritorious cases who can not afford knowledgeable and experienced attorneys, and those with cases thatthe Federal Courts no longer have the authority to review.
Why do you assume that these are meritorious cases ? Our laws are
plenty liberal as it is. Anyone who can barely speak English can
figure out our laws and the billion loopholes around them. Marry dumb
*** American. Divorce Dumb *** American. Cry abuse. Get Green Card.
Collect Welfare. Hijack plane. Crash plane into building. Simple as
that. Only brazen mass serial murderers face the remote possibility
of deportation and even then, they still received green cards.
Example: the September 11 hijackers got their visas 6 months after the
attacks with a "Welcome to America" letter from the government. Cry
me a river with your liberal judges nonsense. Give it a break.

"Carl Shusterman" <carl.shusterman@gte.net> wrote in message news:<0PJkb.29467$mp1.9493@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... The big losers are persons with meritorious cases who can not afford knowledgeable and experienced attorneys, and those with cases thatthe Federal Courts no longer have the authority to review.
Why do you assume that these are meritorious cases ? Our laws are
plenty liberal as it is. Anyone who can barely speak English can
figure out our laws and the billion loopholes around them. Marry dumb
*** American. Divorce Dumb *** American. Cry abuse. Get Green Card.
Collect Welfare. Hijack plane. Crash plane into building. Simple as
that. Only brazen mass serial murderers face the remote possibility
of deportation and even then, they still received green cards.
Example: the September 11 hijackers got their visas 6 months after the
attacks with a "Welcome to America" letter from the government. Cry
me a river with your liberal judges nonsense. Give it a break.

Michael wrote:
"Carl Shusterman" <carl.shusterman@gte.net> wrote in message news:<0PJkb.29467$mp1.9493@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... The big losers are persons with meritorious cases who can not afford knowledgeable and experienced attorneys, and those with cases thatthe Federal Courts no longer have the authority to review. Why do you assume that these are meritorious cases ? Our laws are plenty liberal as it is. Anyone who can barely speak English can figure out our laws and the billion loopholes around them. Marry dumb *** American. Divorce Dumb *** American. Cry abuse. Get Green Card. Collect Welfare. Hijack plane. Crash plane into building. Simple as that. Only brazen mass serial murderers face the remote possibility of deportation and even then, they still received green cards.

Really? Which serial murderers have gotten a green card after be
suspected of serial murder??

Really? Which serial murderers have gotten a green card after be
suspected of serial murder??



Come now Mr T, you know it happens all the time.............well in the
eyes of posters like Michael anyway.



Rob


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

All of the serial murderers I've ever known of (in the U.S.) were home
grown. I'd like know of even one serial murderer that was an immigrant.



Leslie





Originally posted by Mrtravel
Michael wrote:

"Carl Shusterman" <carl.shusterman@gte.net> wrote in message news:<0PJkb.29467$mp1.9493@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... The big losers are persons with meritorious cases who can not afford knowledgeable and experienced attorneys, and those with cases thatthe Federal Courts no longer have the authority to review.

Why do you assume that these are meritorious cases ? Our laws are
plenty liberal as it is. Anyone who can barely speak English can
figure out our laws and the billion loopholes around them. Marry dumb
*** American. Divorce Dumb *** American. Cry abuse. Get Green Card.
Collect Welfare. Hijack plane. Crash plane into building. Simple as
that. Only brazen mass serial murderers face the remote possibility
of deportation and even then, they still received green cards.

Really? Which serial murderers have gotten a green card after be

suspected of serial murder??


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
All of the serial murderers I've ever known of (in the U.S.) were home grown. I'd like know of even one serial murderer that was an immigrant.

Leslie



We'll see how Lee Malvo gets on in court. But if he is convicted he was
not home grown Leslie.



And that guy in the film American Psycho he was born in Wales I believe.


--
Living it large in Middle America!


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by BritishInOhio
We'll see how John Malvo gets on in court. But if he is convicted he was not home grown Leslie.

And that guy in the film American Psycho he was born in Wales I believe.





I did not see American Psycho. Was it a true story? I concede the
point about John Malvo. Was he actually an immigrant though? What is
his status? I know that he and John Allen Muhammad were posing as
father and son, but was he actually here legally? Just curious if
anyone knows.



Leslie


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
I did not see American Psycho. Was it a true story? I concede the point about John Malvo. Was he actually an immigrant though? What is his status? I know that he and John Allen Muhammad were posing as father and son, but was he actually here legally? Just curious if anyone knows.

Leslie



It's Lee Malvo I made that mistake and went back and corrected it. I am
not sure how he got here, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere he was
not here illegally. I don't think he was on K1, but who knows?


--
Living it large in Middle America!


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by BritishInOhio
It's Lee Malvo I made that mistake and went back and corrected it. I am not sure how he got here, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere he was not here illegally. I don't think he was on K1, but who knows?





Actually you may have been correct. Apparently he has gone by John Lee
Malvo and Lee Boyd Malvo. I just looked up some articles on him. They
are saying he was actually here illegally w/ falsified documentation
(probably explains the confusion w/ the name) and he is a minor (or at
least he was at the time the crimes were committed.) No fiance in the
picture though. This case should be very interesting.



Leslie


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
Actually you may have been correct. Apparently he has gone by John Lee Malvo and Lee Boyd Malvo. I just looked up some articles on him. They are saying he was actually here illegally w/ falsified documentation (probably explains the confusion w/ the name) and he is a minor (or at least he was at the time the crimes were committed.) No fiance in the picture though. This case should be very interesting.

Leslie



Yes, John was the one who was in the business of supplying fraudulent
documents and the mother and son were recipients of such documentation.
It was discovered when Lee was in school in Seattle and he and mommy
dearest were taken into custody by the BICE and a judge let them go.
I'm fuzzy on the reason why and if they were to return to the Islands.
But regardless, they stayed and people lost their lives because of the
system's permissiveness.



Don't forget that the man who was killed in New York City (the
infamous 41 shots) was also granted residency based on fraudulent
documentation. He sought asylum using a fraudulent birth certificate
claiming his parents were killed in his country and he feared for his
life if he were returned there. Well, he died and guess who crawled
out of the woodwork.



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

"Michael" <michaellovesnyc@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9877538f.0310200954.8b1d54d@posting.google.co m... "Carl Shusterman" <carl.shusterman@gte.net> wrote in message
news:<0PJkb.29467$mp1.9493@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... The big losers are
persons with meritorious cases who can not afford knowledgeable and
experienced attorneys, and those with cases thatthe Federal Courts no longer
have the authority to review. Why do you assume that these are meritorious cases ? Our laws are plenty liberal as it is. Anyone who can barely speak English can figure out our laws and the billion loopholes around them. Marry dumb *** American. Divorce Dumb *** American. Cry abuse. Get Green Card. Collect Welfare. Hijack plane. Crash plane into building. Simple as that. Only brazen mass serial murderers face the remote possibility of deportation and even then, they still received green cards. Example: the September 11 hijackers got their visas 6 months after the attacks with a "Welcome to America" letter from the government. Cry me a river with your liberal judges nonsense. Give it a break.
Michael, you are a moron. I have no better word for such a dumb ***
generalized posting. The visas for two of the hijackers were issued by
Americans after the FBI didn't investigate what the flight school in
Sarasota reported. What does that have to do with the millions of good
immigrants coming to build this country? The majority of people in jail are
Americans anyway. And the boy flying the stolen Cessna into the Tampa office
building was a frustrated American just like you. You have no idea what you
are talking about - and idiots like you are allowed to vote. Now, that
bothers me.

BritishInOhio wrote:
Originally posted by Leslie66All of the serial murderers I've ever known of (in the U.S.) were homegrown. I'd like know of even one serial murderer that was animmigrant.Leslie We'll see how Lee Malvo gets on in court. But if he is convicted he was not home grown Leslie.

Yeah, but even if this is correct, does he have a Green Card?
IF so, did he get it before the murders? I know he didn't get one
afterwards.

Originally posted by Leslie66
I did not see American Psycho. Was it a true story? I concede the point about John Malvo. Was he actually an immigrant though? What is his status? I know that he and John Allen Muhammad were posing as father and son, but was he actually here legally? Just curious if anyone knows.

Leslie



John Lee Malvo, a minor, was here out of status with his mother. She at
one point had a relationship with John Allen Muhammed, and that is where
the quasi-father/son relationship developed.



Did I mention that the young Mr. Malvo is a minor? That seems to matter
to me, but I may be the only one.



/sigh


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Rete

Don't forget that the man who was killed in New York City (the infamous 41 shots) was also granted residency based on fraudulent documentation. He sought asylum using a fraudulent birth certificate claiming his parents were killed in his country and he feared for his life if he were returned there. Well, he died and guess who crawled out of the woodwork.

Rete



His name was Amadou Diallo.



http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/diallo/


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

I think Lee Malvo (the dad?---this case is so confusing!) is from
Jamaica.

maryanne kehoe wrote:
I think Lee Malvo (the dad?---this case is so confusing!) is from Jamaica.

Lee Malvo is the teen
His "father figure" is John Allen Muhammad.
I believe "dad" is a USC.
I think Lee is an undocumented immigrant.

I don't think either of them is a green card holder, and I know none of
them got a green card after being suspected of murder. I think the
stupid poster was referring to the 9/11 terrorist, but he was too stupid
to know that there were no green cards given to them after 9/11.

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
John Lee Malvo, a minor, was here out of status with his mother. She at one point had a relationship with John Allen Muhammed, and that is where the quasi-father/son relationship developed.

Did I mention that the young Mr. Malvo is a minor? That seems to matter to me, but I may be the only one.

/sigh



No you are not alone.



I've been following this case more from the developmental psychology
aspect than the legal one.



His treatment concerns me and the seeming unwillingness of the
authorities to acknowledge differences in adult and adolescent cognitive
development.



I'm probably going to raise howls but I believe that the boy needs help,
support and opportunities he never appears to have been afforded.
Granted that if he is found to be guilty that these should IMHO be part
of his incarceration. I'm not saying that he should get off scott free,
just recieve justice with compassion.



If the system fails to do this it is a reflection upon the system and
those who perpetuate it - not John Lee Malvo.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Lefty
- and idiots like you are allowed to vote. Now, that
bothers me.





And breed :(



Dave


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

"Rete" <member@british_expats.com> wrote:
Yes, John was the one who was in the business of supplying fraudulent documents and the mother and son were recipients of such documentation. It was discovered when Lee was in school in Seattle and he and mommy dearest were taken into custody by the BICE and a judge let them go. I'm fuzzy on the reason why and if they were to return to the Islands. But regardless, they stayed and people lost their lives because of the system's permissiveness.

I don't think we'll never know that. John Allen Muhammad was a US citizen
and would have remained here. Would he have gone on to commit those crimes
if Malvo had been deported? My guess is that at some point he would have.

Andy.

--
I'm not really here - it's just your warped imagination.

Originally posted by lairdside
No you are not alone.

I've been following this case more from the developmental psychology aspect than the legal one.

His treatment concerns me and the seeming unwillingness of the authorities to acknowledge differences in adult and adolescent cognitive development.

I'm probably going to raise howls but I believe that the boy needs help, support and opportunities he never appears to have been afforded. Granted that if he is found to be guilty that these should IMHO be part of his incarceration. I'm not saying that he should get off scott free, just recieve justice with compassion.

If the system fails to do this it is a reflection upon the system and those who perpetuate it - not John Lee Malvo.



As someone who lives in MD and was here through the sniper shootings, I
doubt that the Malvo would receive the compassion you talk about.



I doubt he had one ounce of compassion as he coldly ended the lives of
his victims, and destroyed all happiness in the relatives and children
left behind. These shootings were calculated hits, and not spur of the
moment killings that could be mistaken for a moment of madness. His
actions have destroyed many lives over and above those who were killed.



Rob


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by lairdside
No you are not alone.

I've been following this case more from the developmental psychology aspect than the legal one.

His treatment concerns me and the seeming unwillingness of the authorities to acknowledge differences in adult and adolescent cognitive development.

I'm probably going to raise howls but I believe that the boy needs help, support and opportunities he never appears to have been afforded. Granted that if he is found to be guilty that these should IMHO be part of his incarceration. I'm not saying that he should get off scott free, just recieve justice with compassion.

If the system fails to do this it is a reflection upon the system and those who perpetuate it - not John Lee Malvo.



What!!!??? **** next you'll wanting him to file a I-601 waiver so he
can live happily here forever! I'm sorry he is old enough to know wrong
from right.


--
Living it large in Middle America!


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by robclews
As someone who lives in MD and was here through the sniper shootings, I doubt that the Malvo would receive the compassion you talk about.

I doubt he had one ounce of compassion as he coldly ended the lives of his victims, and destroyed all happiness in the relatives and children left behind. These shootings were calculated hits, and not spur of the moment killings that could be mistaken for a moment of madness. His actions have destroyed many lives over and above those who were killed.

Rob





I concur as well. He was not an infant at the time of the killings. He
was a teenager who was not learning impaired, emotionally or physically
abused and was old enough to know the difference between right and wrong
and living and dying. The killings were premediated, cold blooded and
neither have shown any remorse for their crimes.



I can imagine that the defense team will use the defense that he was
raised by a killer and brainwashed to think the way he does and that he
is only the product of his environment.



I'm glad I won't be on that jury and I'm sure the defense attorneys
would not want someone like me. The defendants, in my opinion, showed a
depraved indifference to human life. They do not invoke any feelings of
compassion on my part.



Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
All of the serial murderers I've ever known of (in the U.S.) were home grown. I'd like know of even one serial murderer that was an immigrant.

Leslie



Well as the descendant of Canadian deportees I am a serial/cereal
killer. I am an Acadian/Cajun/Coonass and Canada evicted us in 1755. I
murder a fresh box of Captain Crunch every week along with my daughter
so I am passing my evil legacy on. Does this qualify? LMFASO.... Sorry
the wait and lack of my wifes companionship may be starting to affect my
judgement but I couldn't resist.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by lpdiver
Well as the descendant of Canadian deportees I am a serial/cereal killer. I am an Acadian/Cajun/Coonass and Canada evicted us in 1755. I murder a fresh box of Captain Crunch every week along with my daughter so I am passing my evil legacy on. Does this qualify? LMFASO.... Sorry the wait and lack of my wifes companionship may be starting to affect my judgement but I couldn't resist.





Tony!!!!



Have you been smoking crack?!?!?!

LMAO (again)



Leslie :D:D:D:D:D


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

The problem didn't start with the influence of Muhammad on Malvo even
though that is where it ultimately ended up. I take serious issue
with the mother. She virtually handed over her minor son to
obviously unstable gun fanatic. I think she should face charges of
neglect (at least).



Leslie





Originally posted by billwilson597
they both lived in Tacoma Washington for several years. I have a friend that was their neighbor, and I used to go down to visit my friend on a regular basis. We heard them shooting in the backyard every so often, but we arent the type to call the cops over every little thing. That is a tough neighborhood down there, and someone shooting in their backyard isnt that big of a deal.


That is the meth capital of the U.S. in that area.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
Tony!!!!

Have you been smoking crack?!?!?!
LMAO (again)

Leslie :D:D:D:D:D



No but I am suffering from a severe case of lackonookie and it may be
terminal. Can I use that for my I-601 hardship plea?


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by lpdiver
No but I am suffering from a severe case of lackonookie and it may be terminal. Can I use that for my I-601 hardship plea?





Yes, I am suffering from that same condition. And everyone wonders why
the posters on this NG are so touchy. It's a wonder we haven't all gone
postal. :D:D


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Mrtravel
Lee Malvo is the teen
His "father figure" is John Allen Muhammad.
I believe "dad" is a USC.
I think Lee is an undocumented immigrant.



Correct. The teenager and his mother, both from Jamaica, were here
illegally. They had been caught by the INS before the killing and were
awaiting a deportation hearing or something of that effect that was
scheduled to take place about 1 year after they were first caught by
the INS. In the meantime, the kid found it was fun to shoot a couple
of people.



The 2 9/11 terrorists did not receive a "Welcome to America" notice or a
green card 2 months or so after 9/11. They received a (positive) reply
to the visa extension they had asked.



Caroline


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by robclews
As someone who lives in MD and was here through the sniper shootings, I doubt that the Malvo would receive the compassion you talk about.

I doubt he had one ounce of compassion as he coldly ended the lives of his victims, and destroyed all happiness in the relatives and children left behind. These shootings were calculated hits, and not spur of the moment killings that could be mistaken for a moment of madness. His actions have destroyed many lives over and above those who were killed.

Rob



Not all Marylanders see this the same way. Much of my father's family
lives in Maryland (as well as in DC and Virginia).



One of my closest friends from law school saw one of the people (the
gentleman killed as he was mowing the gas station lawn) fall as he was
shot in that several day period. Yes she was terrified just like
everyone else when they realized what had happened, and later, sad, and
angry. Being that close to human being's death is, I imagine, one of
those things you will never forget.



Despite this, all the folks I have spoken in Maryland have real sympathy
for the child involved and certainly none of them believe that he should
receive the ultimate punishment simply because "he should have known
right from wrong". There is no question that this child was the victim
of clearly twisted and uncaring adults including his mother who left him
in the hands of a man clearly insane -- when she knew he was insame. It
is clear that he is being railroaded full-steam ahead to the death
penalty for many reasons, relating to his poverty, his race, and his
immigration status, in ways most of us who know something about how the
system works on the ground predict a child of a different financial
class, race and immigration status would not be.



If everyone in Maryland felt that there is no question that the young
Mr. Malvo knew right from wrong, such that he would have been convicted
in Maryland, there would have been no need to engage in many things the
prosecution is gleefully engaging in rushing to kill a child, including
transporting him to Virginia and interrogating him outside the presence
of counsel and his guardian ad litem who was on the premises demanding
to be present during questioning (an absolute right accorded to a
juvenile) but refused over the course of 7 hours in which many of the
so-called confessions were extracted, changing venue to Virginia (with
dramatically different jury demographics and most critically, a
dramatically different death penalty law) just so they can kill him.



That these people were killed was and remains tragic. Everyone is
affected by the fear that the randomness created and enhanced by the
sniper shootings whether or not they live in Maryland, particularly
after 9/11. But to oversimplify what is happening to this child under
what is supposed to be a system of justice isn't right either. In the
mad-dog Ashcroft's bloodlust and desire to punish someone, this child is
being treated WORSE than the 40+ year adult defendant who at a minimum
encouraged the child to do the killings, and at worst is allowing the
kid to take the rap for masterminding the entire thing. That isn't
right, but rushing to kill a child isn't right either.


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

I find it ironic that you are calling him a child. He is not a child.
He is at the moment 18 years old which means he was 17 at the time of
the killing spree. Does being 17 mean you can't or shouldn't accept
responsibility for your actions? We punish our children for doing the
wrong things, i.e. cursing, stealing, lying, etc. in the hopes they will
learn what is or is not acceptable behavor and that their actions are
their responsibility.



My personal opinion is, if convicted, he should never ever have the
opportunity to breath the air of freedom again. His crimes against
society were so horrific that he should not be allowed to ever walk
among free society.



As for his beloved father figure, he I would like to see get the maximum
penalty the State of Virginia allows.



I am curious as to why you throw the race card into this case? I have
not once heard anything in the media about their "race" being a
factor. Or is it always a race thing if the victim and perp are of
different races.



Rete





Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
Not all Marylanders see this the same way. Much of my father's family lives in Maryland (as well as in DC and Virginia).

One of my closest friends from law school saw one of the people (the gentleman killed as he was mowing the gas station lawn) fall as he was shot in that several day period. Yes she was terrified just like everyone else when they realized what had happened, and later, sad, and angry. Being that close to human being's death is, I imagine, one of those things you will never forget.

Despite this, all the folks I have spoken in Maryland have real sympathy for the child involved and certainly none of them believe that he should receive the ultimate punishment simply because "he should have known right from wrong". There is no question that this child was the victim of clearly twisted and uncaring adults including his mother who left him in the hands of a man clearly insane -- when she knew he was insame. It is clear that he is being railroaded full- steam ahead to the death penalty for many reasons, relating to his poverty, his race, and his immigration status, in ways most of us who know something about how the system works on the ground predict a child of a different financial class, race and immigration status would not be.

If everyone in Maryland felt that there is no question that the young Mr. Malvo knew right from wrong, such that he would have been convicted in Maryland, there would have been no need to engage in many things the prosecution is gleefully engaging in rushing to kill a child, including transporting him to Virginia and interrogating him outside the presence of counsel and his guardian ad litem who was on the premises demanding to be present during questioning (an absolute right accorded to a juvenile) but refused over the course of 7 hours in which many of the so-called confessions were extracted, changing venue to Virginia (with dramatically different jury demographics and most critically, a dramatically different death penalty law) just so they can kill him.


That these people were killed was and remains tragic. Everyone is
affected by the fear that the randomness created and enhanced by the
sniper shootings whether or not they live in Maryland, particularly
after 9/11. But to oversimplify what is happening to this child under
what is supposed to be a system of justice isn't right either. In the
mad-dog Ashcroft's bloodlust and desire to punish someone, this child is
being treated WORSE than the 40+ year adult defendant who at a minimum
encouraged the child to do the killings, and at worst is allowing the
kid to take the rap for masterminding the entire thing. That isn't
right, but rushing to kill a child isn't right either.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
Not all Marylanders see this the same way. Much of my father's family lives in Maryland (as well as in DC and Virginia).







I don’t know who you talk to in Maryland but I live here and just about
everyone who I have spoken to is appalled at his actions. He may have
been a kid once, but when he slaughtered those innocent people he
certainly was not a child.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Actually some of the victims were black.



Angel is absolutely correct about the disparity between death sentences
given in cases where the defendent is poor and black. There is no
denying it and it is a matter America should be extremely ashamed of.



However, in a case where the crime is this cold-blooded, random, pre-
meditated and completely unprovoked, I seriously doubt anyone, even a
rich white kid, would be able to get out of it without the prosecution
going for the death penalty.



Leslie



Originally posted by Rete
I find it ironic that you are calling him a child. He is not a child. He is at the moment 18 years old which means he was 17 at the time of the killing spree. Does being 17 mean you can't or shouldn't accept responsibility for your actions? We punish our children for doing the wrong things, i.e. cursing, stealing, lying, etc. in the hopes they will learn what is or is not acceptable behavor and that their actions are their responsibility.

My personal opinion is, if convicted, he should never ever have the opportunity to breath the air of freedom again. His crimes against society were so horrific that he should not be allowed to ever walk among free society.

As for his beloved father figure, he I would like to see get the maximum penalty the State of Virginia allows.

I am curious as to why you throw the race card into this case? I have not once heard anything in the media about their "race" being a factor. Or is it always a race thing if the victim and perp are of different races.


Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Rete
I am curious as to why you throw the race card into this case? I have not once heard anything in the media about their "race" being a factor. Or is it always a race thing if the victim and perp are of different races.

Rete



Because the viciousness with which this child (I have a child older than
him, and another the age he was when this was done) is being rushed to
death has not historically existed when a white person is accused of
murder committed as a juvenile. Even in those states with particular
bloodlust where the death penalty is concerned.



IMO, "Race card" is another term used by folks not wanting to
acknowledge that race matters, particularly where law enforcement is
concerned. It still does and it comes to bear hard in this case, where
a juvenile offender is being run roughshod by the justice system to be
executed - in a capital punishment system whose racial biasses are so
obvious that they muster no serious defense.


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by robclews
I don’t know who you talk to in Maryland but I live here and just about everyone who I have spoken to is appalled at his actions. He may have been a kid once, but when he slaughtered those innocent people he certainly was not a child.



Well, let's see. I have last time I went to a family reunion counted
about 200 relatives (big family). I've spoken to about 25 of them about
this - at the last reunion.



Several friends from law school live in Maryland.



Maybe that's not enough though.


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by robclews
I don’t know who you talk to in Maryland but I live here and just about everyone who I have spoken to is appalled at his actions.



Nobody isn't appalled. I am appalled. And nowhere did I say that
anyone wasn't appalled at the crime.



They are *also* appalled, however, at how this juvenile defendant is
being treated. Those are not inconsistent concepts, you know.


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
Well, let's see. I have last time I went to a family reunion counted about 200 relatives (big family). I've spoken to about 25 of them about this - at the last reunion.

Several friends from law school live in Maryland.

Maybe that's not enough though.



I am puzzled where the race issue comes into this particular case, I
have seen little in the media to convince me that this is an issue.
Now had the so called child walked into a 711 with a gun to rob the
till, and shot the cashier in a moment of panic or confrontation, then
yes there could be merit in your argument, the poor lads from a broken
home etc etc.



To plan and carry out mass killings regardless of color has no defence,
i have no interest in the sentence, but should this person be found
guilty then the system will punish him accordingly, I like many will put
my faith in the justice system.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Just to play devil's adocate here.



Does anyone remember Patty Hearst?



The argument could be made that Malvo was completely under the power of
Muhammad, a much older and charismatic father figure. Who's to say that
Muhammad didn't brain-wash and kidnap Malvo?



I seriously doubt that if Patty Hearst had been a poor black male she
would be a free today.



Leslie









Originally posted by robclews
I am puzzled where the race issue comes into this particular case, I have seen little in the media to convince me that this is an issue. Now had the so called child walked into a 711 with a gun to rob the till, and shot the cashier in a moment of panic or confrontation, then yes there could be merit in your argument, the poor lads from a broken home etc etc.


To plan and carry out mass killings regardless of color has no defence,
i have no interest in the sentence, but should this person be found
guilty then the system will punish him accordingly, I like many will put
my faith in the justice system.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
Nobody isn't appalled. I am appalled. And nowhere did I say that anyone wasn't appalled at the crime.

They are *also* appalled, however, at how this juvenile defendant is being treated. Those are not inconsistent concepts, you know.



I really like what you have written here Dekka. You show a deep
understanding of race relations in the US.



There is no race card. That word in itself implies a complete lack of
understanding of how people of color are treated in this country. Race
permeates every level of our society. This is not ancient history.
People were owned here less than 200 years ago, completely controlled
(legally) until the 1970s, and remain at a huge disadvantage today.
These are facts, not my opinion. Where reasonable people differ is how
to redress these issues.



This case in Maryland (I lived through the sniper case) is not really a
racial issue I would agree. The victims are multi-ethnic and we all
were surprised that both of the perps were black. However, perhaps it
does expose some of the tactics used by police/investigators when
dealing with black (and young) defendants. If they do the thins to
Malvo in such a public case, imagine what happens to the guy on the
corner arrested for felony distribution.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
Because the viciousness with which this child (I have a child older than him, and another the age he was when this was done) is being rushed to death has not historically existed when a white person is accused of murder committed as a juvenile. Even in those states with particular bloodlust where the death penalty is concerned.

IMO, "Race card" is another term used by folks not wanting to acknowledge that race matters, particularly where law enforcement is concerned. It still does and it comes to bear hard in this case, where a juvenile offender is being run roughshod by the justice system to be executed - in a capital punishment system whose racial biasses are so obvious that they muster no serious defense.





I will be the first to admit that I don't know the stats on the number
of blacks as opposed to whites who are convicted of crimes and are given
the death sentence. I do recall, however, that the last few that were
put to death were white.



I don't like the term race card but it is the one that came to mind when
I read your post. Perhaps you think I live an insular life. I don't.
To me there are criminals of all races and genders and ages. I do get
tired of reading that suspicion of cimrinal behavior and sentencing is
more prevalent in some races as opposed to others or that only members
of one race will be judged more harshly then another or that crimes
commited by one race against a member of another race is judged
differently by the color of the skin of the victim. While I don't
discount that it most probably exists in certain areas of this country,
I don't believe it is the norm countrywide.



You were the one to bring up race in this case whereas I had never heard
it mentioned as a reason for seeking the maximum sentencing for either
of these defendants. Personally, I can quite honestly say that during
my reading of this case not once did the fact that the defendants are of
what is considered a minority race enter into my evaluation of the case
and its possible sentencing. I would just the very same way if they
were white.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Rete said:



<SNIP>

While I don't discount that it most probably exists in certain areas of
this country, I don't believe it is the norm countrywide.



<SNIP>





Certain areas of the country? You wouldn't be referring to the deep
south would you?



I have two words for you......



Rodney King



ooooppppsss I just thought of two more......



Abner Louima



and two more ...........



Amadou Diallo


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

No I was not referring to the deep south. And I am familiar with the
names you have posted but they were not criminals per se. There is no
justification for the heinous acts committed in two of cases and two
most certainly were racially motivated.







Originally posted by Leslie66
Rete said:

<SNIP>
While I don't discount that it most probably exists in certain areas of this country, I don't believe it is the norm countrywide.

<SNIP>


Certain areas of the country? You wouldn't be referring to the deep south would you?

I have two words for you......

Rodney King

ooooppppsss I just thought of two more......

Abner Louima

and two more ...........


Amadou Diallo


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Angel,



I was getting ready to comment that your list of reasons left out what I
would consider the most important reason - the number of people that
Malvo is accused of killing and the deliberateness with which the
killings were carried out.



But then I thought of a few other instances of youths approximately the
same age - but of different circumstances in the factors you list - who
killed, or tried to kill, roughly the same number of people with great
deliberateness. The Columbine (sp?) High School incident for one, comes
quickly to mind.



Would you care to compare the way that Malvo is being prosecuted with
the way that the Columbine defendants are being (were?) prosecuted?



Regards, JEff



Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
... It is clear that [Malvo] is being railroaded full-steam ahead to the death penalty for many reasons, relating to his poverty, his race, and his immigration status, in ways most of us who know something about how the system works on the ground predict a child of a different financial class, race and immigration status would not be.


....


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

The Columbine shooters are dead.





Originally posted by jeffreyhy
Angel,

I was getting ready to comment that your list of reasons left out what I would consider the most important reason - the number of people that Malvo is accused of killing and the deliberateness with which the killings were carried out.

But then I thought of a few other instances of youths approximately the same age - but of different circumstances in the factors you list - who killed, or tried to kill, roughly the same number of people with great deliberateness. The Columbine (sp?) High School incident for one, comes quickly to mind.

Would you care to compare the way that Malvo is being prosecuted with the way that the Columbine defendants are being (were?) prosecuted?


Regards, JEff


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Leslie,



So they are. Thank you for pointing that out to me. That was clearly
the wrong comparable to suggest. Perhaps someone can come up with an
appropriate comparable.



On the other hand, this is far off topic and perhaps it's time to let it
go in this forum.



Regards, JEff



Originally posted by Leslie66

They are dead.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Hi Jeff,



Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;)



I think if they would have lived, the prosecution would have tried them
as adults and went for the deather penalty (one of them may have
actually 18). I don't know if Colorado has a death penalty, but this is
all hypothetical. I also think that they would have been sentenced to
death and fried. At some point the crime is so horrific that even being
white and middle class can't help you, they went way past that point.
Malvo went way over the line as well, it really doesn't matter what
color he is, he'll be lucky to get out of this alive.



Leslie





Originally posted by jeffreyhy
Leslie,

So they are. Thank you for pointing that out to me. That was clearly the wrong comparable to suggest. Perhaps someone can come up with an appropriate comparable.

On the other hand, this is far off topic and perhaps it's time to let it go in this forum.


Regards, JEff


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

jeffreyhy wrote:
Would you care to compare the way that Malvo is being prosecuted with the way that the Columbine defendants are being (were?) prosecuted?

That wouldn't be a valid comparison as they are two very different parts
of the country... One would have to see how a white person of the same
age in the same area was prosecuted.... I would be it would be the same way.

Leslie and Angel



I have to insert something here and it is not relevant to anything in
this discussion but an explanation of sorts. When I watch the news or
read the papers in the morning and read about the latest crime that
occurs I never think race. I react to the act and scope of the crime
and not to the race of the victim or the prep. I honestly don't think
in technicolor. That is why I react negatively when race is brought
into a discussion. I can't understand why it has to be mentioned. I've
always acted and reacted towards another human in response to their
actions not to their race. And while I am not naive enough to think
that everyone thinks as I do, I don't believe that the majority think
differently. I would sincerely like to believe that the bigots are in
the minority.



For instance Jim went to the warehouse store this weekend alone. He
came home and was upset and started off the conversation about how he
has noticed the larger than usual number of gangs in the area. While in
the store a gang member was bumped by an elderly woman. He pushed her
and told her "watch where the f**k you are going *****". Well the older
lady hauled off and smacked him in the face. At that point the kid
pulled a knife on her. Jim intervened as did the security guard. The
gang was escorted out of the store but not before the kid told the woman
he would be waiting for her outside. Both Jim and the guard offered to
walk her to her car but she refused (although they walked close behind
her anyway). Through the entire discourse, I never once asked what race
they were nor did the issue even cross my mind nor did the preconception
that they were of a particular race because he mentioned the word
"gang". Our neighborhood has gangs who are Asian, Hispanic, White and
African-American. It could have been any gang from any of these groups.
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me for I fear them all. I fear any group
that must use strength in numbers to prove their how bad they are and
show little regard or respect for others in their acts of intimidation.



I'll make this the end of my involvement in this thread.



Rete





Originally posted by Leslie66
Hi Jeff,

Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;)

I think if they would have lived, the prosecution would have tried them as adults and went for the deather penalty (one of them may have actually 18). I don't know if Colorado has a death penalty, but this is all hypothetical. I also think that they would have been sentenced to death and fried. At some point the crime is so horrific that even being white and middle class can't help you, they went way past that point. Malvo went way over the line as well, it really doesn't matter what color he is, he'll be lucky to get out of this alive.


Leslie


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
Not all Marylanders see this the same way. Much of my father's family lives in Maryland (as well as in DC and Virginia).

One of my closest friends from law school saw one of the people (the gentleman killed as he was mowing the gas station lawn) fall as he was shot in that several day period. Yes she was terrified just like everyone else when they realized what had happened, and later, sad, and angry. Being that close to human being's death is, I imagine, one of those things you will never forget.

Despite this, all the folks I have spoken in Maryland have real sympathy for the child involved and certainly none of them believe that he should receive the ultimate punishment simply because "he should have known right from wrong". There is no question that this child was the victim of clearly twisted and uncaring adults including his mother who left him in the hands of a man clearly insane -- when she knew he was insame. It is clear that he is being railroaded full- steam ahead to the death penalty for many reasons, relating to his poverty, his race, and his immigration status, in ways most of us who know something about how the system works on the ground predict a child of a different financial class, race and immigration status would not be.

If everyone in Maryland felt that there is no question that the young Mr. Malvo knew right from wrong, such that he would have been convicted in Maryland, there would have been no need to engage in many things the prosecution is gleefully engaging in rushing to kill a child, including transporting him to Virginia and interrogating him outside the presence of counsel and his guardian ad litem who was on the premises demanding to be present during questioning (an absolute right accorded to a juvenile) but refused over the course of 7 hours in which many of the so-called confessions were extracted, changing venue to Virginia (with dramatically different jury demographics and most critically, a dramatically different death penalty law) just so they can kill him.

That these people were killed was and remains tragic. Everyone is affected by the fear that the randomness created and enhanced by the sniper shootings whether or not they live in Maryland, particularly after 9/11. But to oversimplify what is happening to this child under what is supposed to be a system of justice isn't right either. In the mad-dog Ashcroft's bloodlust and desire to punish someone, this child is being treated WORSE than the 40+ year adult defendant who at a minimum encouraged the child to do the killings, and at worst is allowing the kid to take the rap for masterminding the entire thing. That isn't right, but rushing to kill a child isn't right either.



Hi Angel:



Its interesting to note that you keep mentioning Maryland. I think this
is quite proper because Maryland had, IMHO, the stronger nexus to this
unconscionable crime spree.



However, the current trial is in Virginia. Why is Virginia getting
first crack at trying the pair? -- Because John Ashcroft, quite openly
made the decision to send them to where the death penalty is quicker and
more certain.



I am not opposed to the death penalty per se, but a rush to judgement
DOES bother me, a lot. IMHO, a State Governor with comuntation powers
should lose sleep on execution day and even if he does sleep soundly,
not to express glee.


--
Certified Specialist
Immigration &amp; Nat. Law
Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Folinskyinla wrote:
Originally posted by Dekka's Angel Not all Marylanders see this the same way. Much of my father's family lives in Maryland (as well as in DC and Virginia). One of my closest friends from law school saw one of the people (the gentleman killed as he was mowing the gas station lawn) fall as he was shot in that several day period. Yes she was terrified just like everyone else when they realized what had happened, and later, sad, and angry. Being that close to human being's death is, I imagine, one of those things you will never forget. Despite this, all the folks I have spoken in Maryland have real sympathy for the child involved and certainly none of them believe that he should receive the ultimate punishment simply because "he should have known right from wrong". There is no question that this child was the victim of clearly twisted and uncaring adults including his mother who left him in the hands of a man clearly insane -- when she knew he was insame. It is clear that he is being railroaded full- steam ahead to the death penalty for many reasons, relating to his poverty, his race, and his immigration status, in ways most of us who know something about how the system works on the ground predict a child of a different financial class, race and immigration status would not be. If everyone in Maryland felt that there is no question that the young Mr. Malvo knew right from wrong, such that he would have been convicted in Maryland, there would have been no need to engage in many things the prosecution is gleefully engaging in rushing to kill a child, including transporting him to Virginia and interrogating him outside the presence of counsel and his guardian ad litem who was on the premises demanding to be present during questioning (an absolute right accorded to a juvenile) but refused over the course of 7 hours in which many of the so-called confessions were extracted, changing venue to Virginia (with dramatically different jury demographics and most critically, a dramatically different death penalty law) just so they can kill him. That these people were killed was and remains tragic. Everyone is affected by the fear that the randomness created and enhanced by the sniper shootings whether or not they live in Maryland, particularly after 9/11. But to oversimplify what is happening to this child under what is supposed to be a system of justice isn't right either. In the mad-dog Ashcroft's bloodlust and desire to punish someone, this child is being treated WORSE than the 40+ year adult defendant who at a minimum encouraged the child to do the killings, and at worst is allowing the kid to take the rap for masterminding the entire thing. That isn't right, but rushing to kill a child isn't right either. Hi Angel: Its interesting to note that you keep mentioning Maryland. I think this is quite proper because Maryland had, IMHO, the stronger nexus to this unconscionable crime spree. However, the current trial is in Virginia. Why is Virginia getting first crack at trying the pair? -- Because John Ashcroft, quite openly made the decision to send them to where the death penalty is quicker and more certain. I am not opposed to the death penalty per se, but a rush to judgement DOES bother me, a lot. IMHO, a State Governor with comuntation powers should lose sleep on execution day and even if he does sleep soundly, not to express glee.

Hi All,

Sorry, I missed the original post, but as a life long Maryland resident I
would have no problem with Malvo and Mohammed frying or whatever death
penalty they get.

To tie this in with one of the other threads. If you are in Mohammed's
shoes, I say it's probably best to use a lawyer and not try to defend
yourself as he's doing.


Take care,

Mike :)

Originally posted by Folinskyinla

Its interesting to note that you keep mentioning Maryland. I think this is quite proper because Maryland had, IMHO, the stronger nexus to this unconscionable crime spree.

However, the current trial is in Virginia. Why is Virginia getting first crack at trying the pair? -- Because John Ashcroft, quite openly made the decision to send them to where the death penalty is quicker and more certain.

I am not opposed to the death penalty per se, but a rush to judgement DOES bother me, a lot. IMHO, a State Governor with comuntation powers should lose sleep on execution day and even if he does sleep soundly, not to express glee.



You and I agree, about venue and about why it was done. Actually my
friends at DOJ (I have about 10 I went to school with who work in
various divisions) have said that there was never any secret made about
it made in DOJ - venue was sought in Virginia because in Maryland you
cannot, no matter what, execute a defendant who was a juvenile when the
crime was committed. And knowing the demographics of the area in which
the majority of the victims were killed, there was a very real chance
that they could not draw a jury pool that would be as harsh as Ashcroft
wanted to be. So they took it where the righteous indignation would
prevail over analysis about why any child would ever behave in such a
fashion, and what could be done to save him, if anything.



All IMO and YMMV, of course.



(On the larger issue of race, I'm sorry I brought it up. It is way too
complex to discuss in this forum. Suffice it say, though, that I see
the differences in perspective on this discussion the same as many I do
in life where this hot button topic is concerned. People believe in the
criminal justice system meting out only just punishment, and race not
being an issue with how heinous crimes are actually charged and pursued,
only to the extent that they spend most of their time around communities
the youth of whom have not been historically -- and are still presently
-- the victims of its impact. I don't fault anyone for the experiential
differences, but do think it makes discussion very difficult. And in
this case, it has caused a 90' veer wayy off topic, for which I take
full responsibility and apologize.)


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

I knew that wouldn't be well received.



I still stand by my own position that two wrongs do not make a right.
If the people who presume to judge those who commit heinous acts do not
do so with compassion and instead descend into the quagmire, allowing
such events to draw them into retaliatory acts which are inhumane in
response to those already commited then IMHO everyone loses and nothing
is learnt.



Our sensibilites are not challenged by that which does not offend us.



John Lee Malvo was not set forth as an example of righteousness deemed
fit to dispense justice. If those seemingly so qualified or pivotal to
such said process abuse the values which they should seek to protect and
we stand by and do nothing then we demean ourselves.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by lairdside

I still stand by my own position that two wrongs do not make a right.



How about 12



Rob


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Rete,



I actually left this forum yesterday feeling sad and small. I believe
that most people are not bigots and really want the same opportunities
for all Americans, present company included. The only thing they may be
is ...... a little naive about institutionalized racism, most evident in
the criminal justice and prison systems. This is an extremely difficult
subject at its best. After personally spending the majority of the last
decade being involved in volunteer groups and in particular a committee
that directly dealt with race relations and racial equality on a local
level, I learned a lot more than I ever wanted to know about racism. I
am the first to admit that I go way over the top without much
provocation when it comes to this topic, but it comes from a frustration
of not being able to right an obvious wrong (obvious to me that is.)
When you couple ethnicity with poverty, there are people living in the
U.S. who truly are not given the same rights as the rest of us.



As far as Malvo goes, I don't think race plays into this particular
case, at least not in the extreme.



Leslie









Originally posted by Rete
Leslie and Angel

I have to insert something here and it is not relevant to anything in this discussion but an explanation of sorts. When I watch the news or read the papers in the morning and read about the latest crime that occurs I never think race. I react to the act and scope of the crime and not to the race of the victim or the prep. I honestly don't think in technicolor. That is why I react negatively when race is brought into a discussion. I can't understand why it has to be mentioned. I've always acted and reacted towards another human in response to their actions not to their race. And while I am not naive enough to think that everyone thinks as I do, I don't believe that the majority think differently. I would sincerely like to believe that the bigots are in the minority.

For instance Jim went to the warehouse store this weekend alone. He came home and was upset and started off the conversation about how he has noticed the larger than usual number of gangs in the area. While in the store a gang member was bumped by an elderly woman. He pushed her and told her "watch where the f**k you are going *****". Well the older lady hauled off and smacked him in the face. At that point the kid pulled a knife on her. Jim intervened as did the security guard. The gang was escorted out of the store but not before the kid told the woman he would be waiting for her outside. Both Jim and the guard offered to walk her to her car but she refused (although they walked close behind her anyway). Through the entire discourse, I never once asked what race they were nor did the issue even cross my mind nor did the preconception that they were of a particular race because he mentioned the word "gang". Our neighborhood has gangs who are Asian, Hispanic, White and African-American. It could have been any gang from any of these groups. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me for I fear them all. I fear any group that must use strength in numbers to prove their how bad they are and show little regard or respect for others in their acts of intimidation.

I'll make this the end of my involvement in this thread.


Rete


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Rete
Leslie and Angel

Well the older lady hauled off and smacked him in the face.



Sounds like my nan! She punched my aunt's new beau in the face for
shoving her and attempting to beat up one of my uncles.



It's disgusting when anyone tries to face off against the elderly, and
I have to admit, when I see a feisty old dear hold her own, it makes
me smile! :)



Kate. xxxxxxx:D:D:D


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by robclews
How about 12

Rob





I'm not saying and never have said that if found guilty, which looks
extremely likely IMHO, that John Lee Malvo should not be punished.



My objection is to the seeming disregard of those who "are supposed to
be above such things" for the rights of an individual.





If we allow this to happen in one case, even support it, then how can we
backtrack and demand those same rights for another. Surely we
surrendered those rights in the support of that process?



If "justice" is permissable by such means then exactly what justice do
we have that we may demand it when, God forbid, the time comes for
ourselves or our loved ones?



If we ourselves would act without understanding, regard for the law
and compassion for others then let us expect the same if the situation
is reversed.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

OK if Malvo and his mom "were caught by INS", then why on god's green
earth were they not in jail *awaiting a deportation hearing*?

They are doing that to Cubans that don't make landfall!



Re: Number of Deportation Appeals to Federal Courts Triples (Shusterman)

Group: alt.visa.us.marriage-based Date: Tue, Oct 21, 2003, 3:57pm
(EDT+4) From: member@british_expats.com (Caro)
Originally posted by Mrtravel
Lee Malvo is the teen
His "father figure" is John Allen Muhammad.
I believe "dad" is a USC.
I think Lee is an undocumented immigrant.
Correct. The teenager and his mother, both from Jamaica, were here
illegally. They had been caught by the INS before the killing and were
awaiting a deportation hearing or something of that effect that was
scheduled to take place about 1 year after they were first caught by the
INS. In the meantime, the kid found it was fun to shoot a couple of
people.
The 2 9/11 terrorists did not receive a "Welcome to America" notice or a
green card 2 months or so after 9/11. They received a (positive) reply
to the visa extension they had asked.
Caroline
--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Maryanne Kehoe
OK if Malvo and his mom "were caught by INS", then why on god's green
earth were they not in jail *awaiting a deportation hearing*?

They are doing that to Cubans that don't make landfall!



Re: Number of Deportation Appeals to Federal Courts Triples (Shusterman)

Group: alt.visa.us.marriage-based Date: Tue, Oct 21, 2003, 3:57pm
(EDT+4) From: member@british_expats.com (Caro)
Originally posted by Mrtravel
Lee Malvo is the teen
His "father figure" is John Allen Muhammad.
I believe "dad" is a USC.
I think Lee is an undocumented immigrant.
Correct. The teenager and his mother, both from Jamaica, were here
illegally. They had been caught by the INS before the killing and were
awaiting a deportation hearing or something of that effect that was
scheduled to take place about 1 year after they were first caught by the
INS. In the meantime, the kid found it was fun to shoot a couple of
people.
The 2 9/11 terrorists did not receive a "Welcome to America" notice or a
green card 2 months or so after 9/11. They received a (positive) reply
to the visa extension they had asked.
Caroline
--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com/http://britishexpats.com



Catch and release?


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

maryanne kehoe wrote:
OK if Malvo and his mom "were caught by INS", then why on god's green earth were they not in jail *awaiting a deportation hearing*?

Right, let's blame it on INS..
Come on, many people that overstay or here illegally aren't deported or
detained until they get a hearing.

>Right, let's blame it on INS..


But if they were doing their job, maybe some people would still be
alive!!

IMHO ....... The blame lies with Muhammad and Malvo not the people who
*didn't* catch them before they committed these murders. I also don't
blame the police officer who briefly questioned Muhammed and let him go,
they were actually looking for a white male.



Of note, Muhammed and Malvo were living a very transient life, in
homeless shelters and traveling all over the country. It's not always
so easy for the INS to find illegal aliens.





Originally posted by Maryanne Kehoe
Right, let's blame it on INS..


But if they were doing their job, maybe some people would still be

alive!!


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
IMHO ....... The blame lies with Muhammad and Malvo not the people who *didn't* catch them before they committed these murders. I also don't blame the police officer who briefly questioned Muhammed and let him go, they were actually looking for a white male.




At that point, were they already looking for a minivan rather than a car
(was it a caprice?)? I wonder if that's another reason the officer
didn't suspect anything. I can't remember when the reports of the
minivan came out. I do remember feeling paranoid when I saw a white or
beige van on the road, which was kind of stupid when I think about it
now; but I guess the fear got to me a little.



Juliet


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Exactly, they were looking for a white male in a light colored mini-van.
I don't think your fear was stupid at all. I remember those poor people
who weren't going in to work and keeping their kids out of school. What
an absolute nightmare it must have been for everybody in that area.



Leslie





Originally posted by jcapulet
At that point, were they already looking for a minivan rather than a car (was it a caprice?)? I wonder if that's another reason the officer didn't suspect anything. I can't remember when the reports of the minivan came out. I do remember feeling paranoid when I saw a white or beige van on the road, which was kind of stupid when I think about it now; but I guess the fear got to me a little.


Juliet


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

maryanne kehoe wrote:
Right, let's blame it on INS.. But if they were doing their job, maybe some people would still be alive!!

What job??? Are they supposed to detain juvenile illegal immigrants?
Are you suggesting the 300 or so people caught at WalMart and released
should be kept in jail until their hearing?

INS had no idea he was going to be involved in killing people.
Additionally, the main person responsible is a US citizen.
He could have recruited someone else.

Exactly, he could have and would have recruited someone else or figured
out a way to do it by himself.



Leslie







Originally posted by Mrtravel
maryanne kehoe wrote:

Right, let's blame it on INS..

But if they were doing their job, maybe some people would still be
alive!!


What job??? Are they supposed to detain juvenile illegal immigrants?
Are you suggesting the 300 or so people caught at WalMart and released
should be kept in jail until their hearing?

INS had no idea he was going to be involved in killing people.
Additionally, the main person responsible is a US citizen.

He could have recruited someone else.


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
Hi Jeff,

Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;)

I think if they would have lived, the prosecution would have tried them as adults and went for the deather penalty (one of them may have actually 18). I don't know if Colorado has a death penalty, but this is all hypothetical. I also think that they would have been sentenced to death and fried. At some point the crime is so horrific that even being white and middle class can't help you, they went way past that point. Malvo went way over the line as well, it really doesn't matter what color he is, he'll be lucky to get out of this alive.

Leslie



I thought of this thread a lot today, as I read the news about this:



http://www.msnbc.com/news/989628.asp



Not a juvenile. Definitely white, middle class, and guilty of killing
48 women - he appears to be the most prolific serial killer in US
history. Yet the state happily took a plea bargain from this man to
give him life in prison rather than death when there is no doubt
whatsoever he was old enough to know what he was doing because he did it
for 2 decades. With glee.



Or is somehow Mr. Ridgeway's life worth more than Mr. Malvo's, that the
same hue and cry does not exist? Can it possibly be the difference in
the victims these two killed as well? Where is the horrific line that
supposedly exists where the race and class of both perpetrator and
victim makes no difference in who is driven to execution with his
constitutional rights trampled bloody, and who is allowed to cut a deal
at his own leisurely pace?



Just some off topic food for thought. It's been bothering me a
lot, today.


--
Dekka's Angel


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
I thought of this thread a lot today, as I read the news about this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/989628.asp

Not a juvenile. Definitely white, middle class, and guilty of killing 48 women - he appears to be the most prolific serial killer in US history. Yet the state happily took a plea bargain from this man to give him life in prison rather than death when there is no doubt whatsoever he was old enough to know what he was doing because he did it for 2 decades. With glee.

Or is somehow Mr. Ridgeway's life worth more than Mr. Malvo's, that the same hue and cry does not exist? Can it possibly be the difference in the victims these two killed as well? Where is the horrific line that supposedly exists where the race and class of both perpetrator and victim makes no difference in who is driven to execution with his constitutional rights trampled bloody, and who is allowed to cut a deal at his own leisurely pace?

Just some off topic food for thought. It's been bothering me a lot, today.



Hi:



Last time I looked, Washington still used the gallows, not the needle.



I wonder how much protection he will get from other inmates. After,
Massachussets doesn't have a death penalty and look what happened to
that priest.


--
Certified Specialist
Immigration &amp; Nat. Law
Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization


Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
I thought of this thread a lot today, as I read the news about this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/989628.asp

Not a juvenile. Definitely white, middle class, and guilty of killing 48 women - he appears to be the most prolific serial killer in US history. Yet the state happily took a plea bargain from this man to give him life in prison rather than death when there is no doubt whatsoever he was old enough to know what he was doing because he did it for 2 decades. With glee.

Or is somehow Mr. Ridgeway's life worth more than Mr. Malvo's, that the same hue and cry does not exist? Can it possibly be the difference in the victims these two killed as well? Where is the horrific line that supposedly exists where the race and class of both perpetrator and victim makes no difference in who is driven to execution with his constitutional rights trampled bloody, and who is allowed to cut a deal at his own leisurely pace?

Just some off topic food for thought. It's been bothering me a lot, today.



I guess he doesn't have John Ashcroft on his case, determined to make an
example out of him....



Besides, it's so much more comfortable for middle America to have an
"enemy" which they can identify easily as being different from
themselves. When the "enemy" within is white, middle-aged, employed and
looks just like the "guy next door" to them how do they cope?



It's much easier to propogate a sense of false security than to deal
with mass paranoia - or would that be reality?



Ah, but reality probably isn't so good for increasing governmental
powers and winning votes.........


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Folinskyinla
Hi:

Last time I looked, Washington still used the gallows, not the needle.

I wonder how much protection he will get from other inmates. After, Massachussets doesn't have a death penalty and look what happened to that priest.



The article said that the plea bargain doesn't protect him from being
tried in other jurisdictions also.



Speaking of death penalties does Utah still use a firing squad?


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Dekka's Angel wrote:
Originally posted by Leslie66 Hi Jeff, Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;) I think if they would have lived, the prosecution would have tried them as adults and went for the deather penalty (one of them may have actually 18). I don't know if Colorado has a death penalty, but this is all hypothetical. I also think that they would have been sentenced to death and fried. At some point the crime is so horrific that even being white and middle class can't help you, they went way past that point. Malvo went way over the line as well, it really doesn't matter what color he is, he'll be lucky to get out of this alive. Leslie I thought of this thread a lot today, as I read the news about this: http://www.msnbc.com/news/989628.asp Not a juvenile. Definitely white, middle class, and guilty of killing 48 women - he appears to be the most prolific serial killer in US history. Yet the state happily took a plea bargain from this man to give him life in prison rather than death when there is no doubt whatsoever he was old enough to know what he was doing because he did it for 2 decades. With glee. Or is somehow Mr. Ridgeway's life worth more than Mr. Malvo's, that the same hue and cry does not exist? Can it possibly be the difference in the victims these two killed as well? Where is the horrific line that supposedly exists where the race and class of both perpetrator and victim makes no difference in who is driven to execution with his constitutional rights trampled bloody, and who is allowed to cut a deal at his own leisurely pace? Just some off topic food for thought. It's been bothering me a lot, today.

This guy's a piece of trash too and if he had been tried in Virginia he
wouldn't have got life, as Malvo and Muhammad are going to find out.

I think Utah still uses the firing squad. But, you have to put in a
"special" request. LOL.



Did you know in Texas there is still a law on the books that you can be
hanged for horse theft?



Originally posted by lairdside
The article said that the plea bargain doesn't protect him from being tried in other jurisdictions also.


Speaking of death penalties does Utah still use a firing squad?


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

I'm still shocked. Why in the world would they *reward* this monster
for admitting he killed 48 women. There WILL be an ultimate price to
pay for plea bargaining with Devil, even though I don't know what or
when it will be.



All I can say is that this guy scares me a whole lot more than Malvo
and Muhammed.



Leslie







Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
I thought of this thread a lot today, as I read the news about this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/989628.asp

Not a juvenile. Definitely white, middle class, and guilty of killing 48 women - he appears to be the most prolific serial killer in US history. Yet the state happily took a plea bargain from this man to give him life in prison rather than death when there is no doubt whatsoever he was old enough to know what he was doing because he did it for 2 decades. With glee.

Or is somehow Mr. Ridgeway's life worth more than Mr. Malvo's, that the same hue and cry does not exist? Can it possibly be the difference in the victims these two killed as well? Where is the horrific line that supposedly exists where the race and class of both perpetrator and victim makes no difference in who is driven to execution with his constitutional rights trampled bloody, and who is allowed to cut a deal at his own leisurely pace?


Just some off topic food for thought. It's been bothering me a lot,
today.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Then what would the plea-bargain have been???



Originally posted by Folinskyinla
Hi:

Last time I looked, Washington still used the gallows, not the needle.


I wonder how much protection he will get from other inmates. After,
Massachussets doesn't have a death penalty and look what happened to
that priest.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

It is a matter of where the crimes and the sentencing takes place. As
an attorney you know that. If he were sentenced in Oregon (I believe
that is the state mentioned in the news) he would be likely to get the
death penalty. Depends on the prosecutor as well. Look at NYS. We
have the death penalty but one do-gooder in the Bronx DA office does not
believe in the death penalty and regardless of the heinous crime
involved will not seek that penalty when going to trial.



It reminds me of the situation many years earlier of the man who shoot
and killed a State Trooper when he was pulled over for a traffic
infraction in Yonkers. He then drove to Dobbs Ferry and kidnapped a
woman when she left the office that evening. Drove her and her car to
someone's boarded up summer house in the Catskills. Killed her and
scalped her and tried to get across the Canadian border wearing a dress
and his victim's hair.



He was captured, returned to Westchester County, and on the way to the
courthouse for arraignment he tried to grab a Trooper's gun from his
holster and the other Trooper shot and killed him. Yes, there was a
public outcry for justice as some people wondered how someone who was
shackled hand and foot could do what it was alleged he attempted to do.
The Troopers were vindicated ..... end of story. Personally, I smiled a
lot that day.



And yes, the killer was white and the Trooper was white as well.



Rete







Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
I thought of this thread a lot today, as I read the news about this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/989628.asp

Not a juvenile. Definitely white, middle class, and guilty of killing 48 women - he appears to be the most prolific serial killer in US history. Yet the state happily took a plea bargain from this man to give him life in prison rather than death when there is no doubt whatsoever he was old enough to know what he was doing because he did it for 2 decades. With glee.

Or is somehow Mr. Ridgeway's life worth more than Mr. Malvo's, that the same hue and cry does not exist? Can it possibly be the difference in the victims these two killed as well? Where is the horrific line that supposedly exists where the race and class of both perpetrator and victim makes no difference in who is driven to execution with his constitutional rights trampled bloody, and who is allowed to cut a deal at his own leisurely pace?


Just some off topic food for thought. It's been bothering me a lot,
today.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
Then what would the plea-bargain have been???



Probably the number of years one has to stay behind bars until up for
parole as well as the "degree" of the crime, i.e. man 1, man 2, etc.


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

In the abstract ............ I personally don't believe in the death
penalty. I would be satisfied to see this man behind bars for the rest
of his life. Of course, I'm sure I'd be singing a different tune if one
of the women he killed was a member of my family.



Leslie



Originally posted by Rete

Probably the number of years one has to stay behind bars until up
for parole as well as the "degree" of the crime, i.e. man 1, man 2,
etc.


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Originally posted by Leslie66
In the abstract ............ I personally don't believe in the death penalty. I would be satisfied to see this man behind bars for the rest of his life. Of course, I'm sure I'd be singing a different tune if one of the women he killed was a member of my family.

Leslie



I'm of the same opinion Leslie.



Regarding if he'd killed someone from my own family - I hope that
I wouldn't feel diferently if God forbid something so awful were
to happen.



That said, I would STRONGLY oppose parole for someone like this. In some
cases I do believe that life should mean LIFE.



Although life in the UK is generally 25 years and eligibility for
consideration for parole takes longer to "come up" than in the U.S. in
general I believe for those who are criminally insane there is always
"At Her Majesty's Pleasure".


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Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Angel,



From what I've read and heard about this case, I don't think it's fair
to say "the state happily took a plea bargain from this man". Rather, I
understand that they had a very difficult time with the decision. In
the end, they did it so that the families of 48 dead women, rather than
only the 7 for whom they thought they had enough evidence to prosecute a
case, could know for sure what had happened to their loved one. They
didn't do it to be compassionate for the killer, they did it to be
compassionate for the survivors of the victims.



As several other posters have noted, Ridgeway's sentence may still turn
out to be a death penalty.



Regards, JEff



Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
I thought of this thread a lot today, as I read the news about this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/989628.asp

Not a juvenile. Definitely white, middle class, and guilty of killing 48 women - he appears to be the most prolific serial killer in US history. Yet the state happily took a plea bargain from this man to give him life in prison rather than death when there is no doubt whatsoever he was old enough to know what he was doing because he did it for 2 decades. With glee.

Or is somehow Mr. Ridgeway's life worth more than Mr. Malvo's, that the same hue and cry does not exist? Can it possibly be the difference in the victims these two killed as well? Where is the horrific line that supposedly exists where the race and class of both perpetrator and victim makes no difference in who is driven to execution with his constitutional rights trampled bloody, and who is allowed to cut a deal at his own leisurely pace?


Just some off topic food for thought. It's been bothering me a lot,
today.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Hi Lairdside,



Killing is wrong. That's why it is illegal.



On the spiritual side I believe in Karma, that's a whole other topic
but it does contribute to my opposition to the death penalty.

Not to mention the fact that people have been sentenced to death and
later exonerated. Pretty scary stuff.



Leslie



Originally posted by lairdside
I'm of the same opinion Leslie.

Regarding if he'd killed someone from my own family - I hope that I wouldn't feel diferently if God forbid something so awful where to happen.

That said, I would STRONGLY oppose parole for someone like this. In some cases I do believe that life should mean LIFE.


Although life in the UK is generally 25 years and eligibility for
consideration for parole takes longer to "come up" than in the U.S. in
general I believe for those who are criminally insane there is always
"At Her Majesty's Pleasure".


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com