Living in Ukraine [Archive]

JohnCindy

09-27-2003, 10:20 PM

Dear Olena,

Again, I'm sorry to offend you with my other post about spousal
interviews in Warsaw.

There are many reasons why people should live in Ukraine. In fact I
wrote an article called the Top Ten Reasons Why Ukraine is a better
place to live than the US. (You can read it here:
http://www.brama.com/travel/messages/29131.html)

However, pollution is one of the main reasons why Kiev is not a good
city for a young child. There is significant evidence that shows babies
need to have the best possible environment. Children need a good
environment too, and we are going to find a place in Ukraine that has
this after we return.

I'm assuming that you're moving to Colorado. I just was living there in
Boulder, before I moved here. There is no comparison between the life-
quality there and here. Colorado is clean and a great place to live.

But, there are problems there too. And you'll find out when you get
there. The front range (Colorado Springs to Fort Collins) is incredible
crowded. There are 4 million new people living there in the last 10
years. New housing developments are destroying beautiful grasslands and
mountain areas. Traffic is a major problem, especially in Denver. I've
heard stories of people getting stuck for 2 or more hours, just trying
to drive through the city on the freeway.

Crime and violence are also major problems. Ever hear of Littleton,
Colorado? This is a violent culture, and it pervades every aspect of
life there. Colorado Springs is the heart of violence, in my opinion.
It is the center for the Nuclear Weapons complex in the US I think,
where they have air force bases and nuclear missile silos all over the
place. It is also one of the most conservative cities in the country,
where it is home to several fundamentalist christian churches.

I shouldn't rant here. Because I know that this is going to be your new
home, and I respect that. Ukraine has problems too, but that doesn't
mean we should all run away from them.

My wife and I have been doing volunteer humanitarian and environmental
work in Ukraine, trying to make things better. I think this is a
worthwhile cause, even if some do not.

Since we're both American and Ukrainian, I think we're going to try to
take the best things from both cultures and countries, and try to avoid
those things which are negative.

Best Regards,

Dan

PS. I didn't know that when I posted to Google Groups, it would also
show up here. That was kind of surprising, and a bit of a shock.

--
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mrtravel

09-28-2003, 12:04 AM

Daxpeace wrote:

Crime and violence are also major problems. Ever hear of Littleton, Colorado? This is a violent culture, and it pervades every aspect of life there. Colorado Springs is the heart of violence, in my opinion.

The "Heart Of Violence".. Do you plan to go out of your way to insult
large groups of people, or do you just do it naturally?
It is the center for the Nuclear Weapons complex in the US I think, where they have air force bases and nuclear missile silos all over the place. It is also one of the most conservative cities in the country, where it is home to several fundamentalist christian churches.

Is it the "heart of violence" because it has fundamentalist christians,
or because it is the home of some nuclear weapons that were created as a
deterrent? No, Colorado Springs is not the "center for the Nuclear
Weapons complex". It is best known militarily as the home of the Air
Force Academy.
I shouldn't rant here. Because I know that this is going to be your new home, and I respect that. Ukraine has problems too, but that doesn't mean we should all run away from them.

No, but it means that if you feel it is an unhealthy environment, it
might be safer to run away. Ukraine is already noted for the greatest
nuclear power disaster in history. My wife and I have been doing volunteer humanitarian and environmental work in Ukraine, trying to make things better. I think this is a worthwhile cause, even if some do not.

Great, then you can choose to live there now. But, you have already
stated that you will be taking your family back in a couple of years
when the environment is better. Which "some" are you referring to when
you say they don't think humantarian and enviormental work are
worthwhile causes? The way you stated it, it sounds like you mean 'us"

JohnCindy

09-28-2003, 01:00 AM

Mr. Travel,

I'm tired of being attacked by you. I wasn't writing to you in the
first place, so you shouldn't be insulted.

If you are a fundamentalist or a military person or someone from
Colorado, I sincerely apologize.

Why can't I have an opinion, and express it? You said that this is what
bulletin boards were for!

Also, I think the greatest nuclear disaster in history is the bombing of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which immediately killed 180,000 innocent
civilians, when the U.S. had already basically beaten the Japanese, in
late 1945. Can I have that opinion? Or does that offend you too?

Peace,

Dan

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mrtravel

09-28-2003, 12:15 PM

Daxpeace wrote:
Mr. Travel, I'm tired of being attacked by you. I wasn't writing to you in the first place, so you shouldn't be insulted.

You were righting to a newsgroup.
So, just because I am not black, it would be perfectly ok for you to
call someone in here a "******"? Yeah, I know you didn't, but that
doens't mean I can't comment on what I feel are insults to other people If you are a fundamentalist or a military person or someone from Colorado, I sincerely apologize. Why can't I have an opinion, and express it? You said that this is what bulletin boards were for!

You expressed your opinion, I expressed mine. It seems you are
complaining because I have an expressed an opinion.

Also, I think the greatest nuclear disaster in history is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which immediately killed 180,000 innocent civilians, when the U.S. had already basically beaten the Japanese, in late 1945. Can I have that opinion? Or does that offend you too?

I said the "greatest nuclear POWER disaster". That was Chernobyl,

If the US had beaten Japanese. why were they still fighting?
If it had required a land invasion to end the war, how many people would
have died? In any case, that was 60 years ago. Are you placing 21st
century values on a war from 60 years ago? I have no idea what this has
to do with Colorado Springs, unless you are aware of some secret
activity hidden from the rest of us.

Chernobyl is still relevant because similar reactors are still in use
in Ukraine, not to mention other eco hazards that are substantially
greater than they are in the US.

JohnCindy

09-28-2003, 01:07 PM

We (Me and my lovely hubby!!) don't agree about all the terrible things
you have just said about my second home colorado and my hubby's all time
state of residency.

Ok if we were going to have a nuclear war that would lead to Colorado
Springs getting bombed its basically the end of the world anyways no
matter where you are!!

Colorado high on crime ok obviously you have never been to Detroit or
Chicago or any other major city in the US, Denver is low in fact there
was an article that said Denver is the second best city to live in the
US..and can name 20 cities worse than Denver,so just thought I would
give my opinion before everyone thinks Colorado is hell which is far
from the truth.

COLORADO ROCKS!!

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JohnCindy

09-28-2003, 01:42 PM

You seem to be very "down" on life in the US and Colorado in particular.
A few suggestions:

1. Live elsewhere in Europe. There are many countries on that
continent without the pollution you so fear for your child.

2. If you are insistent in returning to the US why go to an area you
obviously detest. There are 49 other states to choose from. What
about the mountains of West Virginia or Tennessee, far from the
crowds and the pollution you are afraid of.

3. If you are living and working in the Urkaine why the heck are you
doing a K-3? Thought you would be eligible to do direct consular
filing since you have the legal right to live and work there.

Rete

Originally posted by Daxpeace
Dear Olena,

Again, I'm sorry to offend you with my other post about spousal interviews in Warsaw.

There are many reasons why people should live in Ukraine. In fact I wrote an article called the Top Ten Reasons Why Ukraine is a better place to live than the US. (You can read it here: http://www.brama.com/travel/messages/29131.html)

However, pollution is one of the main reasons why Kiev is not a good city for a young child. There is significant evidence that shows babies need to have the best possible environment. Children need a good environment too, and we are going to find a place in Ukraine that has this after we return.

I'm assuming that you're moving to Colorado. I just was living there in Boulder, before I moved here. There is no comparison between the life-quality there and here. Colorado is clean and a great place to live.

But, there are problems there too. And you'll find out when you get there. The front range (Colorado Springs to Fort Collins) is incredible crowded. There are 4 million new people living there in the last 10 years. New housing developments are destroying beautiful grasslands and mountain areas. Traffic is a major problem, especially in Denver. I've heard stories of people getting stuck for 2 or more hours, just trying to drive through the city on the freeway.

Crime and violence are also major problems. Ever hear of Littleton, Colorado? This is a violent culture, and it pervades every aspect of life there. Colorado Springs is the heart of violence, in my opinion. (The U.S. is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world - Martin Luther King, Jr.) It is the center for the Nuclear Weapons complex in the US I think, where they have air force bases and nuclear missile silos all over the place. (I am mistaken, it is the home to the US Military Space Command) It is also one of the most conservative cities in the country, where it is home to several fundamentalist christian churches.

I shouldn't rant here. Because I know that this is going to be your new home, and I respect that. Ukraine has problems too, but that doesn't mean we should all run away from them.

My wife and I have been doing volunteer humanitarian and environmental work in Ukraine, trying to make things better. I think this is a worthwhile cause, even if some do not.

Since we're both American and Ukrainian, I think we're going to try to take the best things from both cultures and countries, and try to avoid those things which are negative.

Best Regards,
Dan

PS. I didn't know that when I posted to Google Groups, it would also
show up here. That was kind of surprising, and a bit of a
shock.

--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

JohnCindy

09-28-2003, 01:54 PM

Wooo right on Rete Super Moderator!!, You go girl!!

There is so many countries where you can live in Europe, What about
Spain?, Spain is such a beautiful country!!! :):)

COLORADO RULES!!!! :D:D:D

:PARTY: :PARTY:

There

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JohnCindy

09-29-2003, 03:09 AM

I'm definitely down on the US, but its my country, my birthplace, and
where all of my family live. There's no reason not to live there (I can
affect change from within). I did like living in Colorado, and said
that the standard of living is very good. That's not in question. I
plan on living in the midwest, where my family and friends are. I was
just in Colorado for grad school.

We're applying for a CR1 visa, not a K-3.

Finally, we can't live anywhere else in Europe because of EU work permit
rules. They're too restrictive. We do plan on living in Ukraine, but
after a couple years or so. It's not so bad here.

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David9287

09-29-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Hypertweeky
We (Me and my lovely hubby!!) don't agree about all the terrible things you have just said about my second home colorado and my hubby's all time state of residency. Colorado high on crime ok obviously you have never been to Detroit or Chicago or any other major city in the US, Denver is low in fact there was an article that said Denver is the second best city to live in the US..and can name 20 cities worse than Denver,so just thought I would give my opinion before everyone thinks Colorado is hell which is far from the truth.

COLORADO ROCKS!!

IT SURE DOES!!!!! WHOOO HOOOO!!!

CO- #2 in quality of life.....

CO- Forest Area- 11 seperate National Forests..

CO- Over 50 Peaks reaching 14,000ft.

CO- 3 National Parks w/ Mesa Verde Nat Park being designated as a "World
Class" Cultural Heritage Site. Re: Anasazi dated to 550 A.D.

CO- "World Class Skiing"

CO- 4 "World Championships" 2-Football 2-Hockey 1-National Championship
College Football.

CO- Home of NORAD, U.S. Air Force Acadamy and Martin Marietta one of the
largest "Defense" contractors in the US.

CO- Home of the "highest" suspension bridge in the US.

CO- CU Medical Center and Cancer Reasearch, top 5 Medical Schools
in the US.

CO- Denver International Airport- One of the largest airports in the
"world." 5th largest in the US, 10th busiest in the "world."

Denver- Nations largest Parks system w/ 205 parks within the city
limits.

CO- 66.5 % of CO reidents are home owners.

CO- 3rd fastest growing sate in the US.

CO- 24th in poulation.

CO/ Denver Crime Index.......

28th over all...... 31st in violent crime......25th in property
crime..... 34th for murder...... 38th for robbry....

Denver- 20th in US population

Denver- 10th in Downtown office space and rental in the US.

Denver- Receives 300 days of sunshine a year- more annual hours of sun
than San Diego or Miami Beach.

Denver is the nation's most highly educated with the highest % of high
school and college graduates.

Denver- Has the nation's second largest performing arts center.

Denver- citizens contribute more public funding for the arts "per
capita" than any other US city.

Denver- The Art Museum boasts of the largest collection of Native
American art in the US.........

et....

et....

et....

ROCK ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fact is Colorado is one of the best places in the
"WORLD" to live and raise a family.

David and Olena

US/UA

1NOA 3-7-03

2NOA Oct........? 03

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OlenkaKyiv

09-29-2003, 10:44 AM

wooo...hooo.... I have been to this post for awhile and I see you did a
great discussion....

I have to put two coins to this thread because there is talk about
Colorado (the state which I love already) and Ukraine the country where
I was born and which I love very much, but only for people and for its
nature, not for policy, not for government.

I am sorry I didn't read your post on Brama yet, but I will..... not
being in Ukraine, but being in Colorado, because when I read
"tremendous" articles about GTEAT life in Ukraine, I am getting really
upset!!! And I want because I should much strengthes to leave Ukrainian
people who suffer under mafia's power of Kuchma and his helpers.

ok... so you told about good life in Ukraine. First I would like to ask
you some questions and I will answer these questions then, because I am
sure i have answers ;)

1) how long are you in Ukraine?? for a year? 2 years? I bet not for long
time. If you do, i bet you liv in good apartment in the canter of
Kiev, having salary about $ 500 per month, going to supermarkets to
buy food and good food.

2) have you ever been to low life districts like Troeshchina or like my
district Borshchagovka to where poeple are scare to make a step
because of drugs, fights in nights and days and poor people who have
no smile on his faces?? I advise you to come and son't speak only to
religious people who went around you, but with people who
dissapointed in life and they don't see another way to go from
this!!! When my American client walked around he told me: "Olenka,
that is terrible!!! Why people don't smile???? why???" He couldn't
understand how it is possible to live for $ 30 per month (my friends
have such salary), how it is possible to eat only potatoes and don't
know what Mc'Donalds means??

and you being a volunteer can't see this??? you are BAD volunteer....
sorry to offend you, but you ARE!!! Do you know that al humanitarian
help from US and other European countries is traded by people who have
access to it and that these people have great money making fools who
give this clothes and medicine to Ukraine and leaving poor families
without food and clothes??? Can't you see this with your eyes??? How can
I call this country good one seeing all this???? and I can't do anything
even being a lawyer, because all courts are bought by power people....
is it justice??? when I was going to claim my salary for my work from my
Law firm, my boss told me: "ok.... go to court, but you know I can buy
every judge!!!" and I know he can.... is it justice??

3) Today I walked on main street of Kreshchtik.... I saw small boy who
asked money and good wonderful white mercedes was going to crush this
guy only because KING-governer was sitting there and no one has a
right to tell no or to make something against his word. Did you see
how many expensive cars in compare with poor clothes of Ukrainian
population?? Because simple people can't afford a car and they walk,
but go to the government and you will see great cars and FAT guys who
are our governers and who have to make our life better, but
everything is going to their pockets and bank acounts!!!! ok.... so
we discussed another brench of power

4) Parliment and Ukrainian President. Did you hear how many people
curse this tyrant Kuchma???? did you hear how many people want him
to die because he led country to the worst situation we ever had??
You didn't, I bet you did.... but you can't understand this, or you
talk to rich and happy people who can steal only and show how great
they are.....

5) my client told me: "why don't you work to have more money?? " huh...
do you know how many money have businnesman to have to start his
business, and not for licens, but for pockets of officers as a
bribe.... did you ever try to start your own business??? try here and
then acount how much money you need to pay, to buy coffe, chocolate,
cars, washing machines just to get little papers permission. Just
lets talk to my client who have to pay $ 2 000 to the pocket of head
of Administrtion to get room for office even this office is of
government. But else he should pay to revenue office, to fire men
control, to medical control. Is it law state????? is it that great
state you told about where you have to pay and pay and pay???? Ask a
lawyer here about skills to pay bribe.... they don't want, but they
should. They hate local govenments because they don't feel any
respect, because even local governers feel their power and they want
to make pressuare on every person who come to them...

I can talk and talk and I am really upset that I am leaving, because I
would like so much to show you all places with children who breath hair
spray, to show you old people who have penssion in $ 20 per months and
nothing more, I would show you the district which has a name "Tsarskoye
selo" near my district where rich people-steaves (because only stealing
something from people is possible to get so much money here) built their
3-4-5 foors houses and at once i will show you my house and my apartment
with 2 small rooms and little corridore and kitchen in 8 sqm, and I
would show you my classmates who were very good young people, but
because of life and culture they started to drink and take drugs. I
would show you..... and and...

the most question is : WHY ARE YOU GOING TO US WITH YOUR GREAT LOVE TO
UKRAINE???? WHY DO YOU LIVE THIS GREAT COUNTRY FOR TERRIBLE USA WHICH IS
FULL OF CRIME??? You can't understand that you tell things and you do
different way.....

volunteer!!! OPEN your eyes and see this country by my eyes, eyes of
Ukrainian!!!! PLEASE..... but you won't be able, because you are an
American and you live as an American there, with American volunteer's
salary and life. I know that all my words here will fell to anywhere,
because you have different mind and you have no wish to have a look
inside the problem BAD

I leave this Ukraine, because I have found great man (it is hard to
find such man in Ukraine- another reson to leave it) but I will visit
it, and i will teach my children Ukrainian, but I am so sorry about
those people who live there and I am so sorry for such volunteers as
you for they are BLIND

Hope I didn't offend someone too much. It is reality!!!!

Olenka

--
Impatient Ukrainian girl

Posted via http://britishexpats.com

JohnCindy

09-29-2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by David9287
IT SURE DOES!!!!! WHOOO HOOOO!!!
CO- #2 in quality of life.....
CO- Forest Area- 11 seperate National Forests..
CO- Over 50 Peaks reaching 14,000ft.
CO- 3 National Parks w/ Mesa Verde Nat Park being designated as a "World Class" Cultural Heritage Site. Re: Anasazi dated to 550 A.D.
CO- "World Class Skiing"
CO- 4 "World Championships" 2-Football 2-Hockey 1-National Championship College Football.
CO- Home of NORAD, U.S. Air Force Acadamy and Martin Marietta one of the largest "Defense" contractors in the US.
CO- Home of the "highest" suspension bridge in the US.
CO- CU Medical Center and Cancer Reasearch, top 5 Medical Schools in the US.
CO- Denver International Airport- One of the largest airports in the "world." 5th largest in the US, 10th busiest in the "world."
Denver- Nations largest Parks system w/ 205 parks within the city limits.
CO- 66.5 % of CO reidents are home owners.
CO- 3rd fastest growing sate in the US.
CO- 24th in poulation.
CO/ Denver Crime Index.......
28th over all...... 31st in violent crime......25th in property crime..... 34th for murder...... 38th for robbry....
Denver- 20th in US population
Denver- 10th in Downtown office space and rental in the US.
Denver- Receives 300 days of sunshine a year- more annual hours of sun than San Diego or Miami Beach.
Denver is the nation's most highly educated with the highest % of high school and college graduates.
Denver- Has the nation's second largest performing arts center.
Denver- citizens contribute more public funding for the arts "per capita" than any other US city.
Denver- The Art Museum boasts of the largest collection of Native American art in the US.........
et....
et....
et....
ROCK ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fact is Colorado is one of the best places in the "WORLD" to live and raise a family.
David and Olena
US/UA
1NOA 3-7-03
2NOA Oct........? 03

David,

You don't like living in Colorado or anything, do you?? :)

I don't live in Colorado but my sister lives in Denver and I love to
vacation there. I think Colorado is one of the cleanest, beautiful,
safest, most wholesome (and fun) states in the US.

With that said ........ I love the USA !!!! and I don't like to hear
people criticise it. (I'm sure everyone feels this way about their home
countries.) But I get really annoyed when it's an American citizen doing
the bad-mouthing, knowing full well all of the opportunities we have
here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however I don't understand
people that criticise and whine, yet still live here.

Thats my 2 cents.

Leslie

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JohnCindy

09-29-2003, 10:53 AM

Olenka ......... You Rock!!!

:D:D:D

Leslie

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JohnCindy

09-29-2003, 11:31 AM

Hey there!!

The first time I went to the states I was an aupair.. I lived for 2
months in New York City.. but requested to Switch to another family
because It was hard for me to wake up the kids at 6 am to get to school
at 8 am,driving in New York was very hard for me at the moment because I
didn't have any driving experience at all (Only had 4 months of
"experience" at that time.. mom didn't let me drive here in Spain
because she though I was way too young lol..).. so It was way too hard
for me to live there. I wouldn't have that problem now.. since I have
achieved a lot of driving experience in Colorado :):)

Well ok Ok.. Getting to the point lol.. I loved New York even though I
wasn't able to drive there :).. so when the au pair agency told me..
they found a family in Colorado for me.. I exclaimed.. WHAT!!, what Am I
gonna do over there?, I don't wanna go.. Oh man I was SO WRONG.. I got
to discover the whole state.. and I have nothing to say about colorado
but I AM IN LOVE WITH COLORADO!!, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else
in the states (People from another states.. dont get offended
please!!:):) ).. I love Colorado because it has the man I am madly in
love with, the Lil bean Alexis,the rockie mountains, the 300 days of sun
we get, the lakes, The national parks, The Broncos, the AVS,The nuggets,
the 2 AWESOME college football teams (CSU AND CU), The Rockies, The
beautiful views.. and so on!!... David You rock!!, Thanks for letting
all these people know what Colorado IS REALLY ALL about!!.

Olenka.. We need to catch up when I get there :):).

Have I already said.. That SPAIN ROCKS!!! LOL..

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mrtravel

09-29-2003, 11:32 AM

David9287 wrote:
Denver- Receives 300 days of sunshine a year- more annual hours of sun than San Diego or Miami Beach.

Yeah, but sunshine and 15 degrees is not the same as sunshine and 70
degrees in January.

JohnCindy

09-29-2003, 12:22 PM

Colorado is cold in winter time.. but I have never seen 15 degrees in
the Metro Area, Up in the mountains might be.... But oh well I don't
really care since I like winter time better than summer :D:D

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JohnCindy

09-29-2003, 12:23 PM

Thanks for sharing your perspective Olena.

I've been living in Ukraine for almost 2 years, with only one short trip
to Warsaw and Krakow. I've been to the cities of Gorlovka, Sevastapol,
Yalta, Dniprodzerzhinsk, Rivne, Odessa, Lviv, and Ivano-Frankivsk. I
live on the left bank, in Darnitsya. Our house is surrounded by
factories, but we are very close to the forest - one of the things that
makes it a nice place to live. We live in a small apartment (one
bedroom) which we shared with another guy for almost the first year I
was here. My wife and I live on a Ukrainian salary, and with our child
it is sometimes barely enough to live on.

Of course I've been to Troeshchina, and the crime and violence and
alcoholism is bad, but no worse than any place in America. Of course
it's dangerous to go out at night. Kiev is a city of 3 million people!
There are lots of dangers here.

I'm not here with any religious charity of any sort. I work with
environmental, antinuclear NGOs. We do some humanitarian work at
orphanages and schools, installing energy saving insulation on the
windows. You shouldn't judge what kind of volunteer I am without
knowing more about me or what I do, should you?

I agree, $30 is too little to live on in Kiev. My wife and I had some
times when we both were out of work, and we had to buy the 'cheap'
carrots and potatoes at the bazaar. It's definitely hard.

Ukraine needs good, honest lawyers, by the way. If they all leave
Ukraine, we're going to be much worse off. It's called 'brain drain'
and it's happening all over the CIS. I do hope that some of the people
who emigrate will help Ukraine in the future.

There are lots of rich and poor people here, but I assure you that the
overall disparity between rich and poor is greater in the U.S.

I'm not sure how you know what I think about President Kuchma, because I
never said that I think he's a good president.

I've had problems with rules and regulations in Ukraine too, but I've
had many more problems with the police in the U.S.

I told you already we're going to the US to live there for a while. Why
not? I'm not saying you shouldn't live where there is crime, or that
Colorado is off-limits to anyone with a social conscience. Of course
not. I wish everyone was free to live where they like. I think you
think I'm saying US-BAD UKRAINE-GOOD, and everyone should live in
Ukraine. But that's not it. I'm saying that Ukraine has plenty of good
points, and it's worth living in. I'm tired of Ukrainians thinking
their country is the worst place to live on earth. It's not!!

I live in Urkaine as a Ukrainian, and as a global citizen. I like it,
and I like the world. I think we're just misunderstanding eachother.

I already apologized for insulting Coloradans, Fundamentalists, and
Criminals. I apologize again, profusely! Will anyone pleeeze
forgive me?

DMN

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David9287

09-29-2003, 12:59 PM

Yup I do like Colorado..... didn't mean to boast about "my" State just a
few facts from the Colo and Denver commerce/tourism site.....lol. All
things considered Colorado is a good state. Funny that we may end up in
Florida..... go figure? When the weather changes and the snow falls, the
fun begins! Warm nights in front of a fire place with a bottle of wine
or a coffee, a horse and carriage ride in downtown Denver covered with a
warm blanket under the stars, ski fever (I can feel it allready), a swim
in the hot springs in Glenwood (snow never stopped me)...... It's
cold..... must be football season........ In fact Colorado experiences
most of all four seasons.... Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall.... this is
nice! My sister lived in Hawaii for 5 years and frankly she couldn't
wait to get off the islands.... funny hmmm?

As far as UKRAINE...... been there (3 times) and to mine eyes
delight..... YES/NO.... only a tear..... but I love UKRAINE it is my
"girls" home, her family and friends........ Will she leave her country?
Yes. Will she miss her country, Yes. Will we visit at least 1-2 a year?
Yes. It is not that Ukraine is bad..... no; only that our future has a
better chance in the States.

TO HYPERTWEEKLY................ Olena and I were in Paris and Barcelona
in Dec of 2002. I LOVE SPAIN.

TO DAX................. None taken... come to CO and stay awhile, there
are some good folks here and the state is full of things to do.....

Take care all.

David and Olena

--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

mrtravel

09-29-2003, 01:10 PM

Hypertweeky wrote: Colorado is cold in winter time.. but I have never seen 15 degrees in the Metro Area, Up in the mountains might be.... But oh well I don't really care since I like winter time better than summer :D:D

Do you mean for Denver or somewhere else?
I see the average low for January at 16.1, so I don't doubt it gets to
15. The record is -34

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/weather/longterm/historical/data/denver_colo.htm

OlenkaKyiv

09-29-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Daxpeace
I live in Urkaine as a Ukrainian, and as a global citizen. I like it, and I like the world. I think we're just misunderstanding eachother.

No, it was not misunderstanding, it was that fact I told, that you won't
be able to understand Ukrainian mind because you are an American. You
wasa born with mind of freedom and you lived in country where human
rights are protected in better way than in Ukraine. As I told you 2
years is nothing in compare to live all your life here. Just try not to
go to US and live more, you will be forced by hardships and soon you
will understand what I meant.

Another examples:

- my client wanted to live in Ukraine, because life is cheaper and
better (like he told), but after 1,5 monthes of living here being in
different districts he told: "Ukraine is terrible for living.... how
do you survive here??"

- my classmate will be married to Ukrainian immigrant who lives in US
now for more than 8 years. He came to her for a month. They traveled
around Ukraine and he told: "I am so sorry for every Ukrainian who
lives there, because Ukraine didn't change much except having
expensive restaurants for reach people, fashion cars and poorer people
who look at this with their hungry eyes.

You see, not only I think the same way. You like world, because you were
grown up in different conditions. You had good food and good envirment,
you had clothes and parents who were sure about their life and what they
will have in their future. Now try to understand what can children take
from their parents if parents have mind like you told: "Ukraine is the
worst country in the world" The question is how parents can change their
mind to give their children RIGHT mind that their life is WONDERFUL, as
long as parents don't know where to get money, for what to buy foos and
clothes, when people are not sure about all political and economical
situation. We are full with fear and this fear kills us.

Of course you are free to change the place to live and no one blames
you, but your daughter is lucky (wife also), because they can travel and
they are able to see new life, life in US, they are able to see other
countries. It is very important, because when people are closed in their
state they can't understand that life can be changed to the best. Who
does such way for country is closed. Our government, because they are
not interested in people growing up against them, because parliementers
didn't steal everything yet. And they will need much time, because
Ukraine is really reach country with its nature.

You shouldn't judge what kind of volunteer I am without knowing more about me or what I do, should you?
I shouldn't, but you shouldn't judge how Ukraine is good without living in it for long time and having so great chance to take away you wife and your daughter from Ukraine as long as other Ukrainians must stay in this BAD AIR and GOOD situation like you told. I know it is a range talks in my words, because such "wise" guys like you like to judge Ukraine as woderful country living in other countries and coming to Ukraine just to visit it for not long time. I am in range on our immigrants who sit in US, Canada and other countries talking about Ukrainian language and that Ukrainians have to love their country. I am in range on people who just talk sitting far from terrible place and being in pink clouds, because they can't feel the pain of person who live their and see all this.

You said good and honest lawyers must be in Ukraine..... ok.... do you know that our system turns honest lawyers to liers forcing them to give bribes. Yeah.... I was that great honest lawyer, and what???/ I went to revenue office and I didn't get any paper as long as I bring chocolate, coffe and money.... big money. I was called different words (bad Russian words) from my boss who told me that I am nothing without skills to give bribes and that I will loose my work if I won't solve problem. It was my first one work which I tried to find for 4 months having the best grades in my diploma.... on American it means to have only A for all five years of my studying at University. I was on of the best students of my faculty and what I have got???? $ 100 per months??? do you know how I worked?? When I came to police to solve some problems I had such propositions huh..... honest lawyer. Can honest lawyer live in Ukraine.... no.... he will be unhonest or he will quit his job. I queit in a year and I am happy that I did. My dreams of childhood was to be a lawyer. I tried and I can't live with bribes. Lawyers are people also and they want to live good life, quiet life.

I don't want to tell that in US life is like a honey..... no... never... We had this discussion before on this forum and I am not going to discussed this again. I just want to tell that some countries are better in comparison to other countries, and believe me Ukraine is not on the first place of great countries.

I just want to talk to you in 10 years when you live in Ukraine for longer time and when your daughter will tell you: "hey, Daddy.... why did we leave US with good inverment?" ;) And sorry to tell you again, but I think that your depart to US is escape from this country. It is like you said about lawyer that they should stay in Ukraine. I think such people as you who loves Ukraine should stay in Ukraine also to make better life of Ukrainians ;)
I leave, because I want to have family with my husband in healthy conditions for my children SMILE and don't breath glue, for my husband and me smile to our children, but not shout on them not because we don't love them, but because we woudn't have money to buy a toy. And you will see also, that it is not so easy to find good man in Ukraine ;) you have daughter and sooner or later you will see who they are :) I don't want to offend Ukrainian men, there are many good one, but...... not too much unfortunately even they tell that they are the best in the world :)

My best wishes to you.... Hope you won't leave Ukraine for long time, it needs such people as you.

And I have read post on Brama. I saw many posts there whcih proved my words ;)

Best wishes,
Olenka

My dearest Colorado I fly to you soon and I am looking forward to see your wonderful places and to breath you clean air, to hug my great man whom you gave to me..... of course, Ukraine, I will keep you in my mind because I have many memories about you :)

--
Impatient Ukrainian girl

Posted via http://britishexpats.com

JohnCindy

09-29-2003, 10:13 PM

Olena,

I've actually grown up not just in the U.S. My family lived in Africa
for two years, and then China for two years. Do you know what life is
like in Africa? If you had ever been there, you wouldn't think things
were so bad in Ukraine. China is much, much poorer than Ukraine too,
although they probably have less social problems than Ukraine. I've
also traveled to 26 or 27 other countries and spent some time there.
I've seen Nicaraguan peasants who are forced to work as slaves picking
bananas. I've seen Kung San Bushmen who are being forced off their
traditional lands, and driven to alcoholism. And of all the places I've
ever been, Ukraine is a country in transition, emerging as a democratic
country. It's not as bad as you think (but I agree there is no number 1
- just as there is no country that can be called number 1) It will take
a long time, and some things won't change. But you see, I'm an
American! I will do as much as I can, but it's really up to Ukrainians
to make their country the best it can be. Just like it's up to me to
improve my country. And, if we can, we'll try improving eachothers
countries in the small ways we can.

Dan

--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

OlenkaKyiv

09-30-2003, 08:40 AM

Every person is seeking for better ;)

Ukraine is good for Africans and US is good for Ukrainians :D Americans
like all the world.

It is life :)

Olenka

--
Impatient Ukrainian girl

Posted via http://britishexpats.com

JohnCindy

09-30-2003, 03:22 PM

I lived there for 2 years but I never though the temperature could drop
to -31.. It never felt that cold to me:), Sorry I was wrong!!

David.. Barcelona is such a beautiful city.. I am glad you visited my
BEAUTIFUL country and I am so happy you liked it!!

How many days did you spend in Spain??.

--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 01:38 AM

With that said ........ I love the USA !!!! and I don't like to hear people criticise it. (I'm sure everyone feels this way about their home countries.) But I get really annoyed when it's an American citizen doing the bad-mouthing, knowing full well all of the opportunities we have here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however I don't understand people that criticise and whine, yet still live here.

Thats my 2 cents.

Leslie

It's quite damaging when people have an attitude that you can't discuss
the weaknesses of something without being completely against it._ I
think that

capitalism has flaws, but I prefer it to any alternative of which I'm
aware. Knowing that

there are good features should not, must not, blind us to seeing how
other things need to be improved. When I criticize my country it is
*because* I love it and expect more from it.

--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 04:29 AM

I agree! Whatever happened to that saying, "You are your own
best critic?"

If people never criticized the United States at all, there would
probably still be slavery, male-only voting, weak labor laws, and ultra-right-
wing government. Oops, I guess we still have the last one!

--
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JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 04:38 AM

Did you know that until 1848 California, New Mexico and other portions
of the Southwest were internationally recognized provinces of free
Mexico, until the U.S. decided it wanted those provinces, declared war
on Mexico, and stole them? Read on for the chronology of these events,
and then ask yourself "Who are the real illegals in California?"

Prior to 1822: What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico,
Colorado, Utah, and California are all spainish colonies.

1822: Mexican colonists, following the American revolution, rebel
against Spain and win their own revolutionary war, making Mexico a
free nation just like America.

1844: James Polk campaigns for the U.S. presidency, supporting expansion
of U.S. territories into Mexico.

February, 1845: James Polk, on his inagauguration night, confides to his
Secretary of the Navy that a principal objective of his presidency is
the accquisition of California, which Mexico had been refusing to sell
to the U.S. at any price.

Early 1845: The Washington Union, expressing the position of James Polk,
writes: "...who can arrest the torrent that will pour onward to the
West? The road to California will be open to us. Who will stay the
march...?" "A corps of properly organized volunteers...would invade,
overrun, and occupy Mexico. They would enable us not only to take
California, but to keep it."

Early 1845: John O'Sullivan, editor of the Democratic review writes it
is "Our manifest destiny to overspread the continent ...for the free
development of our yearly multiplying millions."

Early 1845: James Polk promises Texas he will support moving the
historical Texas/Mexico border at the Nueces river 150 miles south to
the Rio Grande provided Texas agrees to join the union. "The
traditional border between Texas and Mexico had been the Nueces
River...and both the United States and Mexico had recognized that as
the border." (Zinn, p. 148)

June 30, 1845: James Polk orders troops to march south of the
traditional Texas/Mexico border into Mexican inhabited territory,
causing Mexicans to flee their villages and abandon their crops
in terror.

"Ordering troops to the Rio Grande, into territory inhabited by
Mexicans, was clearly a provocation." (Zinn, p. 148)

"President Polk had incited war by sending American soldiers into what
was disupted territory, historically controlled and inhabited by
Mexicans." (John Schroeder , "Mr. Polk's War")

Early 1846: Colonel Hitchcock, commander of the 3rd Infantry regiment,
writes in his diary: "...the United States are the agressors....We have
not one particle of right to be here....It looks as if the government
sent a small force on purpose to bring on a war, so as to have a pretext
for taking California and as much of this country as it chooses....My
heart is not in this business."

May 9, 1846: President Polk tells his cabinet: "...up to this time...we
have heard of no open agression by the Mexican Army."

May 10, 1846: violence erupts between Mexian and American troops south
of the Nueces River. Of course Polk claims Mexicans had fired the first
shot, but in his famous "spot resolutions" congressman Abraham Lincoln
repeatedly challenges president Polk to name the exact "spot" where
Mexicans first attacked American troops. Polk never met the challenge.

May 11, 1846: President Polk urges congress to declare war on Mexico.

May 12, 1846: Horace Greeley writes in the New York Tribune: "We can
easily defeat the armies of Mexico, slaughter them by thousands, and
pursue them perhaps to their capital; we can conquer and "annex" their
territory; but what then? Who believes that a score of victories over
Mexico, the "annexation" of half of her provinces, will give us more
Liberty, a purer Morality, a more prosperous Industry...?

1846: Congressman Abraham Lincoln, speeaking in a session of congress
"...the president unnecessarily and unconstitutionally commenced a
war with Mexico....The marching an army into the midst of a
peaceful Mexican settlement, frightening the inhabitants away,
leaving their growing crops and other property to destruction, to
you may appear a perfectly amiable, peaceful, un- provoking
procedure; but it does not appear so to us."

1846, after war is underway, the American press comments:

February 11, 1847. The "Congressional Globe" reports: "...We must march
from ocean to ocean....We must march from Texas straight to the Pacific
ocean....It is the destiny of the white race, it is the destiny of the
Anglo-Saxon Race."

The New York Herald: "The universal Yankee Nation can regenerate and
disenthrall the people of Mexico in a few years; and we believe it is a
part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."

American Review writes of Mexicans "yielding to a superior population,
insensibly oozing into her territories, changing her customs, and out-
living, exterminating her weaker blood."

1846-1848: U.S. Army battles Mexico, not just enforcing the new
Texas border at the Rio Grande but capturing Arizona, New Mexico,
Utah, Colorado, and California (as well as marching as far south as
Mexico City).

1848 Mexico surrenders on U.S. terms (U.S. takes over ownership of New
Mexico, California, an expanded Texas, and more, for a token payment of
$15 million, which leads the Whig Intelligencer to report: "We take
nothing by conquest....Thank God"). Yeah right!

(date unknown) General Ulysses S. Grant calls the Mexican War "the most
unjust war ever undertaken by a stronger nation against a weaker one."

Primary Source: "We take nothing by conquest, Thank God", in A People's
History Of the United States, 1492-Present, Howard Zinn, NY:
HarperCollins Publishers, Inc. (This book is available on the shelf at
virtually every bookstore in America. The New York Times Book Review
says it "...should be required reading for a new generation of
students...." )

http://www.geocities.com/paolochiocchetti/mexicanwar.htm

--
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JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Sennia
It's quite damaging when people have an attitude that you can't discuss the weaknesses of something without being completely against it._ I think that
capitalism has flaws, but I prefer it to any alternative of which I'm aware. Knowing that
there are good features should not, must not, blind us to seeing how other things need to be improved. When I criticize my country it is *because* I love it and expect more from it.

Sennia,

Of course you are absolutely right. What I should have said was that it
really annoys me to hear Americans criticise this country without
attempting to affect change.

Don't you think it's wonderful to live in a country where you can
actually "expect" anything at all.

I would be a fool not to acquiesce on the point made about freedom of
speech. It is American freedom of speech that allowed the original
poster to feel comfortable enough to criticise the US. However, I have
no patience for people who criticise the U.S., without attempting to
affect change. I "criticise" my government everytime I vote.

I was moved by Olenka's experience and bitter disappointments as an
attorney in the Ukraine. I've spent the last week having many tear-
filled conversations with my husband, about a similar situation in our
family. His sister, a recent college graduate, top of her class.
Accepted a position to teach math and science in a remote mountain top
village in Morocco. This village has no electricity or plumbing,
neither does the school she would be teaching in. She didn't accept
this position because she is a great philanthropist, she accepted it
because it was the only one she was offered. Most of the young people
she graduated with were offered nothing at all. Her family helped her
move all of her belongings (10 hour round trip by car) from Marakesh, a
modern and beautiful city. She taught for one week and then was told
that she would probably not be able to stay on because there were not
enough children to justify them keeping her on and their priority was
with the more senior instructors. The reason attendance is down is that
more and more rural families are having to pull their children out of
school at younger ages and send them to work to help support the
families. We are waiting for the verdict, but it seems pretty likely
she'll be coming home. The real kicker is, she would have not even
started to receive a salary until after one year. Teachers in Morocco
are required to work the entire first year for no salary, as it is
considered their "apprenticeship". This type of thing is considered
quite normal to Moroccan's and they have to be very careful not to
criticise their government or complain too much, or they may ruin future
opportunities for themselves.

Leslie

--
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David9287

10-01-2003, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Daxpeace
Did you know that until 1848 California, New Mexico and other portions of the Southwest were internationally recognized provinces of free Mexico, until the U.S. decided it wanted those provinces, declared war on Mexico, and stole them? Read on for the chronology of these events, and then ask yourself "Who are the real illegals in California?"

Prior to 1822: What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and California are all spainish colonies.

(date unknown) General Ulysses S. Grant calls the Mexican War "the most unjust war ever undertaken by a stronger nation against a weaker one."

Come on Dax,
You can't blame the sins of the father on his/her children. Using your logic all Germans should be imprisoned for the sins of the Nazi Party, all communists should be imprisoned because of the sins of Stalin. All "Christians" should be imprisoned for the sins of the Crusades, then there were the Greeks, the Romans, the French, they controlled much of Africa, the Brits (Middle East) and oh yes all Americans should be imprisoned for their sins against the Native American Indians, and what about the Spanish, and what about the Italians.....(remember the WWII and the Mafia). The Japanesse.... they killed millions of Indo- Chinese......et. My comments regarding the quality of life in Colorado verses other states, countries and continents are my observations. Just like, Hong Kong is no Las Vegas, Paris is no New York, London is no Chicago, Thaiti is no Hawaii, Moscow is no Los Angeles, Rome is not Miami and no certainly AFRICA is not Ukraine. Dogs are not cats! One thing for sure, Africa is one of the poorest if not the poorest nation in the world, beset by corruption, disease and hunger...... To be very honest... my fiancee' is from UKRAINE and has lived there all her life, "we" have traveled all over her country, Kyiv, Odessa, Belgorod, Simferopol, Yalta (the Ludvya Palace is stunning) and I said the same thing..."honey, maybe I should sell out all my assets in Colorado and move to Odessa...... and she said, "are you out of your mind!" I love her country.... through the eyes of a "tourist." She loves her country because this is her home. There is no question in my/her mind the opportunities in the US are superior. NOW, as far as the US over-all, how many other countries have put a man on the moon? What country donates more money, food, and medical aid internationaly? No other country in the WORLD can match our GDP. Much can be said in two words the "Marshall Plan." You cannot blame the sins of the father on the children.

--
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JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 09:38 AM

(QUOTE)

Prior to 1822: What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico,
Colorado, Utah, and California are all spainish colonies.

(QUOTE)

I'm with David 9287. Right or wrong, as history proves, many peoples,
nations and cultures have been conquered, destroyed, displaced,
oppressed and enslaved in the name of colonization. The U.S. is
relatively new to this time honoured tradition.

The whole fallacy in your argument lies in one small detail. These were
Spanish colonies, not Mexican colonies. Spain had invaded and conquered
Mexico centuries before. The US "stole" these colonies from Spain, who
"stole" them from varied ethnic groups that we now know as "Mexico",
long before we ever showed up on the scene.

Leslie

--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

David9287

10-01-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Leslie66
(QUOTE)
Prior to 1822: What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and California are all spainish colonies.
(QUOTE)
The whole fallacy in your argument lies in one small detail. These were Spanish colonies, not Mexican colonies. Spain had invaded and conquered Mexico centuries before. The US "stole" these colonies from Spain, who "stole" them from varied ethnic groups that we now know as "Mexico", long before we ever showed up on the scene.

Leslie

Leslie66, you are a smart bird :-)

Having said that, if Dax wants to affect change in UA, this is
great..... but he is up against a corrupt government, a failing economy
(though there is some light at the end of the tunnel, the
infrastructure/ economy is still not set up for a "free market system),
the banking collapes in 90-91 is still a problem for the elderly and the
retired, there is a huge division between the have's and the have not's,
tax barriers to ownerships and the environment is and will be an ongoing
problem, from my mouth to God's ears. For the rich, sure they can find
wonderfull places to live, eat the best food, have all the "perks" of a
good life, for the rest..... plain and simple... life is hard,
opportunities few.

--
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mrtravel

10-01-2003, 11:57 AM

Daxpeace wrote:
Did you know that until 1848 California, New Mexico and other portions of the Southwest were internationally recognized provinces of free Mexico, until the U.S. decided it wanted those provinces, declared war on Mexico, and stole them? Read on for the chronology of these events, and then ask yourself "Who are the real illegals in California?"

How did Mexico become the "owner' of California???

mrtravel

10-01-2003, 12:22 PM

Leslie66 wrote: (QUOTE) Prior to 1822: What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and California are all spainish colonies.

And Spain "stole" them from who??

JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Mrtravel
Leslie66 wrote:
(QUOTE)

Prior to 1822: What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico,
Colorado, Utah, and California are all spainish colonies.

And Spain "stole" them from who??

The Aztecs and the Incas.

--
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JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by David9287

Originally posted by Daxpeace
One thing for sure, Africa is one of the poorest if not the poorest nation in the world, beset by corruption, disease and hunger......

Umm, just to be pedantic.

Africa is not a nation.

It is a continent. A big one. With lots of nations on it. Some big.
Some small.

Which has far more to offer the world than the minerals still being
dragged out of it by the western world to further its wealth and the
"corruption, disease and hunger" that everyone remembers from their
visits there.

But again, that's the problem with colonialism - generations later when
the effects are still around, folks just believe that this is the way it
always is, and always was.

/sigh

--
Dekka's Angel

Posted via http://britishexpats.com

JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 05:46 PM

JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 08:49 PM

It seems like some people here are saying that the U.S. should be
forgiven for invading and conquering and massacring so many people over
history (like the 1,000,000 Vietnamese, the millions of Native
Americans, the innocent civilians firebombed in Dresden, the 10,000
Panamanians, the tens of thousands of Iraqis, the thousands of Afghanis
- like those people happily celebrating a wedding, or the tens of
thousands of Japanese killed by our radiation bombs - or whatever you
like to call them).

I disagree. I think there should be a world 'Truth and Reconciliation'
commission, like they have in South Africa. I think we should be able
to try people like Henry Kissinger and George Bush for war crimes, and
for crimes against humanity.

--
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JohnCindy

10-01-2003, 08:54 PM

I'm afraid the Aztecs and the Incas didn't live in the American
Southwest. It was the Anasazi, the Navajo, the Hopi, the Cheyenne, etc.
Yes, they were colonized by the Spanish, and were a part of the country
of Mexico. But they had more rights than under the Yankee Colonialists.
And the fact remains, the US instigated a war of aggression against its
southern neighbor just for a land grab. I don't think any type of
colonialism was right, but I'd rather critisize my own country's
misdeed's than Spains.

You should read Thoreau's "Walden" and "Civil Disobedience". In it, he
explains why the war was wrong, and how he refused to pay taxes to
support it.

That's what we should be doing today.

--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

mrtravel

10-01-2003, 10:42 PM

Daxpeace wrote:
I'm afraid the Aztecs and the Incas didn't live in the American Southwest. It was the Anasazi, the Navajo, the Hopi, the Cheyenne, etc. Yes, they were colonized by the Spanish, and were a part of the country of Mexico. But they had more rights than under the Yankee Colonialists. And the fact remains, the US instigated a war of aggression against its southern neighbor just for a land grab. I don't think any type of colonialism was right, but I'd rather critisize my own country's misdeed's than Spains.

So what? That was a long time ago. I wasn't involved.
Do I blame 40 year old Germans for the Holocaust??????

JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Daxpeace
I'm afraid the Aztecs and the Incas didn't live in the American Southwest. It was the Anasazi, the Navajo, the Hopi, the Cheyenne, etc. Yes, they were colonized by the Spanish, and were a part of the country of Mexico. But they had more rights than under the Yankee Colonialists. And the fact remains, the US instigated a war of aggression against its southern neighbor just for a land grab. I don't think any type of colonialism was right, but I'd rather critisize my own country's misdeed's than Spains.

You should read Thoreau's "Walden" and "Civil Disobedience". In it, he explains why the war was wrong, and how he refused to pay taxes to support it.

That's what we should be doing today.

Now your being pedantic ;). I know where the Aztecs and Incas were. I
was generalizing about the Spanish invasions.

As far as native Americans, don't forget the Comanche's, a people
almost destroyed, and the Karankawa Indians, a non-violent people who
are now completely extinct. The descendents of the original British
settlers are pretty much to blame for the plight of the Comanche's.
The Karankawa however were tormented by first the Spanish, then the
French and then finished off by the American colonials. I'm curious why
anyone would rather criticise one country over another. I think the
history of the world proves that man is a pretty horrible creature and
a dreadful neighbor.

Thanks but, I have read "Civil Disobedience". I believe in non-violent
protest of your own government in certain cases. I even believe in
violent protest in extreme cases, the American Revolution comes to mind.

As far as not paying taxes to protest something, I think you should be
more specific. It seems your current complaints about the U.S. tend to
be about urban violence and having to travel too far to embassy's when
applying for visa's. I don't think that refusing to pay your taxes will
be very effective in either of these cases. If you are referring to the
war in Iraq (I think it's a little late for Viet Nam, but thanks for
bringing up something that we can't do anything about now, that is very
helpful). I did not support the war in Iraq. I did not vote for Bush
and I will do everything I personally can to see him voted out of
office. I will continue to pay my taxes even though I don't relish the
thought of it. If you truly believe that refusing to pay your taxes
will help those poor people in Iraq, then more power to you. I just
happen to disagree.

Leslie

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JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 08:56 AM

Hey hey hey... the Spaniards didn't steal anything lol.

BTW guys.. let's just quit talking about history and have some fun. Hey
does anyone know how long it takes to get the NOA first from Chicago??.

--
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JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Hypertweeky
Hey hey hey... the Spaniards didn't steal anything lol.
BTW guys.. let's just quit talking about history and have some fun. Hey does anyone know how long it takes to get the NOA first from Chicago??.

OK. It's all getting a bit heavy :). My first NOA from Chicago just
took a few days. It was faster than my first NOA from Texas for the 130
(and I live ing Texas.) Did you send it certified?

Leslie

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JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Daxpeace
... the innocent civilians firebombed in Dresden, ....

Weren't the British involved in this particular incident -

Richard III

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Richard III

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JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Richard III
Weren't the British involved in this particular incident -

Richard III

Yes, but the OP is using different quips and quotes out of context and
I'm too lazy to pick apart each and every one of them. :D:D:D

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JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Daxpeace
It seems like some people here are saying that the U.S. should be forgiven for invading and conquering and massacring so many people over history (like the 1,000,000 Vietnamese, the millions of Native Americans, the innocent civilians firebombed in Dresden, the 10,000 Panamanians, the tens of thousands of Iraqis, the thousands of Afghanis - like those people happily celebrating a wedding, or the tens of thousands of Japanese killed by our radiation bombs - or whatever you like to call them).

I disagree. I think there should be a world 'Truth and Reconciliation' commission, like they have in South Africa. I think we should be able to try people like Henry Kissinger and George Bush for war crimes, and for crimes against humanity.

Dresden - Blame Hitler (remember the Holocaust)

Japan - Ever heard of Pearl Harbor?

Afghanistan - Ever heard of the 9-11 World Trade Center bombing.

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JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 09:42 AM

Well my lawyer sent it urgent last Tuesday (30) .. By the way how long
does Chicago take to forward the I-129's to Missouri?

Thank you all!!

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JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by Hypertweeky
Well my lawyer sent it urgent last Tuesday (30) .. By the way how long does Chicago take to forward the I-129's to Missouri?
Thank you all!!

He probably sent it certified w/ a return receipt requested.

Anybody correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understood it was the
first NOA was the indication that Chicago had received it and would then
forward it to Missouri where it is actually processed. Missouri is
the one that takes forever and a day. ;) (We are talking here about the
129-F for the K-3 visa.)

Leslie

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JohnCindy

10-02-2003, 03:00 PM

Ok ok so once Chicago sends the NOA1 is exactly the same day when they
forward the application to Missouri??, If so That is cool. Leslie don´t
tell me that takes forever for Missouri to aprove the K3 lol. It is
better to wait while your application is being processed.. than waiting
without having even started the process :D:D.

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mrtravel

10-02-2003, 11:34 PM

Leslie66 wrote:

Afghanistan - Ever heard of the 9-11 World Trade Center bombing.

Didn't that happen due to Saudia Arabian passport holders?

JohnCindy

10-03-2003, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Mrtravel
Leslie66 wrote:

Afghanistan - Ever heard of the 9-11 World Trade Center bombing.

Didn't that happen due to Saudia Arabian passport holders?

Some were yes. But if you recall the Taliban was providing a safe have
for Al-Qaida in Afghanistan.

Leslie

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JohnCindy

10-03-2003, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Hypertweeky
Ok ok so once Chicago sends the NOA1 is exactly the same day when they forward the application to Missouri??, If so That is cool. Leslie don´t tell me that takes forever for Missouri to aprove the K3 lol. It is better to wait while your application is being processed.. than waiting without having even started the process :D:D.

I don't know, I'm starting to think any kind of waiting is sheer
torture. I can't decide to eat a pint of chocolate ice cream or take a
shot of whiskey. Is there any such thing as chocolate whiskey???
:confused:

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David9287

10-03-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
Umm, just to be pedantic.

Africa is not a nation.

It is a continent. A big one. With lots of nations on it. Some big. Some small.

Which has far more to offer the world than the minerals still being dragged out of it by the western world to further its wealth and the "corruption, disease and hunger" that everyone remembers from their visits there.

But again, that's the problem with colonialism - generations later when the effects are still around, folks just believe that this is the way it always is, and always was.

/sigh

I stand corrected and have edited my post accordingly. I think I was
thinking Continent and it came out Nation..... oopps. Having said that,
feel free to move to any number of countries in Africa for example,
Sudan, Libya, Somailia, Ethiopia, Gabon, Angola, Uganda, Congo, Burundi,
Rwanda, Liberia, Sierra Leone...... just to name of few "nations" within
the "continent" of Africa. I am sure you will find an abundance of fresh
water, good medical care, good housing, good education, good employment
opportunites and a healthy environment for the family. Should we blame
Darwin or GOD for the "colonization" of the entire world? Fact is most
of the governments in the countries of Africa are totally corrupt and
the profits from the "minerals the north, south, east and west," that
are extracted from Africa should be going to the poeples and the
infrastructures of her countries, not to the pockets of their corrupt
leaders and capitolists. It is amazing to me that a continent as
beautifull and rich in culture as Africa could be such a difficult place
to "SURVIVE." Sorry you were offended by my post.

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