Long story but will try to make short...
Last week my company announced that they will be relocating my office from Detroit area to Nashville. They have extended an oofer for all employees to relocate as well. They have divided the people (20 total) into two groups. Group 1 people are expected to be in Nashville working by Jul 1 2009. Group 2 people are expected to be in Nashville working by Jul 1 2010. Should group 1 people decide not to make the move, they are offering a 1 month severence if you resign effective on Jul 1 2009, Jul 1, 2010 for group 2. If you decide to not make the move and stay on until Jan 1, 2010 for group 1 and Jan 1, 2011 for group 2, they are offering a 3 month severence. Of course all of this is payable at the end of the period.
They have not offered any of the details but have said they will pay to move household goods. They also are offering furnished housing a 1 time per month plane ticket home until your family moves to TN.
Doesn't sound like a bad offer but it is for me and here is why.
1. I live on a farm with 40 horses and they will not pay for those to be relocated. These horses are not just your average horses so selling them and buying new is NOT an option. If I go they go! This could cost around $20K or so to move that many horses plus the rest of the barn equipment which will be at my cost.
2. If I take move that leaves a huge amount of workload for my wife and honestly, with a 5 month old at home, she just could not do it so we would have to hire help.
3. With the housing market the way it is, not telling how long or how much of a loss I will take on the farm. I do find it odd that the offer is the same for Group 1 people as Group 2. That extra year for the market to recover could mean tens of thousands of dollars for the group 2 people.
4. This is a Japanese company so about 1/3 of my co-workers are Japanese who live in apartments and don't have homes they have to worry about selling. For the "renters", the company is offering to buy out their lease and/or pay the difference in a short term lease versus a long term lease. This doesn't seem fair to those of us that own....after all, they are not offering to take care of our contractual liabilities on the house.
So in closing, moving would create a huge financial hardship for me and jsut really is not feasible. With that said, how can I negoiate a larger severence package? Keep in mind that they want a full release from any obligation if you take EITHER severance package. To me, is there no value in taking more $ in exchange for not agreeing to file for unemployment, asking for no COBRA, and signing a confidentiality agreement?
I would hate to go down this road but I believe that I have some pretty damaging information to the company if I were to share this with any of their customers.

Sorry, but no one here is going to recommend extortion. The company is not required by law to offer severance at all. "Give me a bigger package or I'll tell the customers X" is hardly the way to go about negotiating -and it isn't going to do much for the references they give you, either.

Sorry, but no one here is going to recommend extortion. The company is not required by law to offer severance at all. "Give me a bigger package or I'll tell the customers X" is hardly the way to go about negotiating -and it isn't going to do much for the references they give you, either.

Sounds like you had better read wikipedia and understand the difference between extortion and negotiating. There is value to the employer having the employer sign a confidentiality agreement, otherwise they would never ask for it. To me, that agreement is worth far greater than 3 months of pay.
You are right, no severance package is required by law but in this case I would qualify for unemployment insurance and that IS required. So if I can leverage that in exchange for more money and my signature, only a fool would not try to do so.

It is not always about the employer and even in todays tough economic times, they do not hold ALL of the cards. I have options and plan on excercising every single one of them.

Thanks for the no help in any tips!

Negotiating is fine. Threatening to give damaging information about the company to the customers if you don't get what you want is not.

Negotiating is fine. Threatening to give damaging information about the company to the customers if you don't get what you want is not.

I agree and I guess I assumed that it would be implied that if was not willing to accept to offer and will NOT sign the agreement that I retained the right to SHARE what I know. I would have no intentions of flat out saying give me more or I talk..........

So with that said, how much is the confidentiality agreement TYPICALLY worth?

There is no "typical" answer. It is worth whatever the company wants it to be worth - not a dollar more and not a dollar less. If you're expecting a dollar figure - "you should be able to get x in severance by agreeing to sign a confidentiality agreement" you're not going to get one. There are far too many variable factors, none of which we - or you - know.

There is no "typical" answer. It is worth whatever the company wants it to be worth - not a dollar more and not a dollar less. If you're expecting a dollar figure - "you should be able to get x in severance by agreeing to sign a confidentiality agreement" you're not going to get one. There are far too many variable factors, none of which we - or you - know.

Certainly there would others who have been in the same position who can share their experiences. For example, a non-compete clause TYPICALLY has a duration of 2 years, give or take. This is the kind of stuff that I am looking for before I NEGOTIATE my severence package.

Just curious.....are you always so negative and do things always appear in black and white to you?

Not in my state, a non-compete doesn't typically run two years. That's what I mean by variable factors. State law varies widely. Industry matters. Length of time with the company. The particular position in question. The size of the company. How much local competition there is. All of these affect what is reasonable. Once again, there is no "typical". It's not likely that someone in your state in a comparable size company in the same type job with a similar competitive market, etc., is going to happen by here with all the applicable information about severance pacakages.

I'll tell you bluntly. The company has already told you what the non-compete is worth to them. It's worth between one and three months of severance. If it were worth more, they'd have offered more.

That's not to say that you WON'T get more. You might. You might not. They might offer a little more; they might withdraw what's already on the table. There's no way to tell. It's too situation specific.

Not in my state, a non-compete doesn't typically run two years. That's what I mean by variable factors. State law varies widely. Industry matters. Length of time with the company. The particular position in question. The size of the company. How much local competition there is. All of these affect what is reasonable. Once again, there is no "typical". It's not likely that someone in your state in a comparable size company in the same type job with a similar competitive market, etc., is going to happen by here with all the applicable information about severance pacakages.

I'll tell you bluntly. The company has already told you what the non-compete is worth to them. It's worth between one and three months of severance. If it were worth more, they'd have offered more.

That's not to say that you WON'T get more. You might. You might not. They might offer a little more; they might withdraw what's already on the table. There's no way to tell. It's too situation specific.

That is why I posted this in the State of Michigan and NOT your state!
The company has not told me what the non-compete and full confidentiality agreement is worth.....they have just stated what they are offering. Ask any real expert in this field and they will all tell you to not agree to whatever the offer is right out of the box. Almost EVERY company expects some negotiating to be done.
But I can promise you that they will not withdrawel the current offer....you see, they can't. This is not an offer to me, but this is an offer for everybody and they must offer offer everyone the same thing. Companies do this to void themselves of lawsuits by treating employees differently.
So again, back to one of original questions.......in signing off on future unemployment benefits (again, in this case I already know that I am entitled to those) how much is a reasonable amount to negoitate. %'s work fine, $ amount is all relative. But just for information purposes, if I file it will cost them around $10,000 in addtional benefits.

I don't know where you got the idea that they have to offer exactly the same thing to everyone. You're asking them to renegotiate your offer - are you suggesting that they would then have to offer everyone what they offer you?

No responsible person is going to give you any numbers and say, "This would be a good number to start with or negotiate for". ONLY an attorney in your state who has details you cannot and should not post on a message board can do that. No Michigan attorneys, to my knowledge, post here.

I don't know where you got the idea that they have to offer exactly the same thing to everyone. You're asking them to renegotiate your offer - are you suggesting that they would then have to offer everyone what they offer you?

No responsible person is going to give you any numbers and say, "This would be a good number to start with or negotiate for". ONLY an attorney in your state who has details you cannot and should not post on a message board can do that. No Michigan attorneys, to my knowledge, post here.

WRONG! The initial offer was the same to avoid anybody sueing them. This was done stratgeically. I am not asking them to do do anything.....I am only saying that the current offer is not enough for me to sign away my knowledge.
Again I never asked for a number and was very clear that all I needed was a %. I know the amount that it will cost them if I file for unemployment.....is 50% of that amount a fair amount that would PROBABLY make them accept.
Here is what I am trying to avoid........I have a job ready for me when I make the move. I will not be filing unemployment but if they think I will and if only ask for 50% of what that amount be, they get a bargain (not to mention the hassle of dealing with it) and I get more cash in pocket.
You have not commented on the lease thingy either..........
How can they offer to buy out leases but not buy out homes? They claim they have to because a lease is a contractual obligation. So what is the difference?

They are still not under any legal obligation to make the same offer to everyone as long as they don't base differences in characteristics protected by law. But if you want to persist in believing that they can't make any changes to the offer unless it's to your benefit, you go right ahead and keep believing it.

I don't work with leases.

Since you've made it clear that you intend to mislead your employer in order to get what you want, you're on your own as far as I'm concerned.

They are still not under any legal obligation to make the same offer to everyone as long as they don't base differences in characteristics protected by law. But if you want to persist in believing that they can't make any changes to the offer unless it's to your benefit, you go right ahead and keep believing it.

I don't work with leases.

Since you've made it clear that you intend to mislead your employer in order to get what you want, you're on your own as far as I'm concerned.

And likewise I am under no LEGAL obligation not to mislead my employer and I am not exactly sure where I would be misleading them?
I never said that they had to make any changes to the offer, but then again I don't have to accept the offer either.

Lets see if I can help.

I am a boss where I work and have previously owned a business. Breaking confidentality, slandering a business, or threatening a business is never road you should go down. You think you have finacial hardships now, when they sue you, you will be buried. The matter will be brought to civil court and they only need to tip the scale 51% in there favor to win. Believe me civil court is not were you want to end up. Please keep in mind they have more money and better attorneys and the finacial means to drag the matter on and on until you give up, go away, or are finacial ruined.

I have a family and understand your position. They are basing their severence on an average of everyone. (i am sure they did some study and have a formula) I would suggest calming down putting your thoughts and requests on paper along with an explanation of why you feel you deserve this amount and schedule a meeting. The worst they can say is no, but if you are calm cool and collected, you have a better chance of getting positive results. Be sure that your request is reasonalbe and back it up with facts and figures if possible....prove your case.

If the company is moving, the non compete would be no matter and there is usually a way around it anyway. Even if you sign, I believe you would be entitled to unemployemnt.

Take good notes on everything (include names dates and times), save all emails, and get copies of EVERYTHING you sign.

Only when all other options have been exhausted, contact a lawyer.

Hope this helps and I hope all works out for you! GOOD LUCK

I can't believe how you guys just expect people to roll over on this stuff and the assumptions that you are making.
I never said that I would walk into a meeting and flat out say "pay me more severance or I will share all of your trade secrets, etc." What I have said is that THEY have indicated that THEY will offer a severence package IF you sign the agreement. All I have to do is say that I am not interested in the severance package and that I am NOT signing the agreement. They will get the message at that point and I have NOT broken any law. Lets get that straight.
As for confidentiality, I have no agreement in place and am free to discuss whatever I want with whomever I want. There is value in having one of these signed by a company, otherwise they would never have you sign one. Unlike you panzies, I will negotiate to maximize what this is worth to my employer, without making any specific threats.
Outside of this forum that I am growing convinced is filled with company officials who always take the side of the employer, almost ALL experts in this field will tell you that you should NEVER take the first offer. Companies EXPECT employees to negotiate.
Your 51% statement about civil court is a clear indication that you have never experienced it, but rather simply have read a book about it. The burden of proof in civil court still lies with the plaintiff. You still must proof your case.
And even though they have more $, you seem to be forgetting that no company wants the negative publicity something like this could have. Especially since I work in the auto industry and they are a Japanese company.
Thanks for everyone's advice....even if it was one sided.

I understand that you are in a tough spot. I am playing devils advocate.

1 - Believe me I am not for the employeer. I have been in your boat. I neg. my severance.
2 - I personally believe that goverment has given to much power to employeers and they often abuse it. There are no laws that REALLY protect us, the worker.
3 - Sometimes reading an email can be a bit hard because people can read into what your saying and sometimes the posty may not be writing their thoughts correctly.

When I personally read your posting I get the feeling of outrage from you (rightly so). Please keep in mind that you asked for advice and we poster are all trying to give advice from our knowledge, experience and point of view. All though you are angry and frustrated it is no reason for you to write nasty notes to us. If you were an expert I don't think you would be posting on this forum, you would have the answers. If you don't like anyones answers maybe you should consult a lawyer, there first consult is free.


I wish you all the best with this! Good Luck!

Ok so maybe I came across the wrong way.
I am not going to make any threats, etc, and fully understand that my employer is under no obligation for any severance package.
At the same time, I know they do not want this to get nasty either and will be willing to negotiate.
So I guess my question was/is are there any tips to use while negotiating this thing out? I know what not to say...."pay me or I will run to your competitor, etc". But what has worked for people in the past? What are good arguements to make for a larger severance package? What arguements for the package that is being offered will they use?
One more tid bit..........from a local public library computer, I am able to read my VP's emails and know what is coming before it is announced. Likewise, he can read my emails and everyone's emails. Can't beleive they are this unsecure but everyone has the same username.....first initial, last name and the same password, which is the company name.
So I now that they are also going to be announcing a 10% pay cut effective April 1. All of this about the time year end reviews would have happened and bonus's are due.
One more question......is it legal to have to different stages of the move and offer the same package to both groups? I mean, I have until Jul 1 of this year to relocate while others were given until Jul 1 2010. That is a big difference an could mean tens of thousands of $ on the sale of homes.

As far as I'm concerned you've already burnt your bridges here. If someone else wants to answer you, fine, but I'm not going to waste my time giving tips to someone who's already shown that they'll fly off the handle any time they don't hear what they want to hear. All I can suggest is that you don't show your employer the same side of yourself you've shown to us.

Have a good life.

I really wasn't intersested in what you have to say. I have read enough of your posts on this thread and others to know that you ALWAYS take the employer side of things.
I do find it humorous how you expect me to have an open mind about this but yet you make all kinds of assumptions about me.

It's not my fault that the laws in this country run in favor of the employer. Complain to your Congressman, not me.

It's not my fault that the laws in this country run in favor of the employer. Complain to your Congressman, not me.

It is not the laws that are the issues. I fully understand that they can kick me to the curb anytime they wish.
But this is not what a large corporation does when it is profitable. There is room to negotiate this and I am looking for how others have gone about it.
Meaning do I strike first do I let them strike first? Right now they are sitting tighting until the end of the month.

The facts that the employer would make you want to sign a document relating to your termination. Only show he’s worried about its validity. A good labor attorney will be able to squeeze more out him than he is offering out of the goodness of his heart. Take copies of the companies offer, copies of the release of liability , the unemployment insurance waiver UNSIGNED and take it to your attorney. There is no advantage to hanging around and being scammed into something that will help your employer.
cbg I'll tell you bluntly. The company has already told you what the non-compete is worth to them. It's worth between one and three months of severance. If it were worth more, they'd have offered more.Oh that is hog wash, that is what they want you to think there is no way anyone in their right mind would believe a big company makes their highest offer from the get-go. Let an attorney do the negotiating, you are talking about executives that negotiate and bargain for a living and are very good at it. You could easily be in over your head fast, or end up with less.

Listen to Joe. He was inside your employer's head and knows exactly what they were thinking and why. :rolleyes:

Listen to Joe. He was inside your employer's head and knows exactly what they were thinking and why. :rolleyes:

Well I certainly like Joe's option alot better than your suggestion of rolling over and playing dead!
Not that I consider you an expert by any means but can you tell me why almost EVERY expert out there says that when companies offer a severence package that they fully expect negotiations and yet your position is that there final offer is the original offer on the table?
I am convinced even more that you are either an employer, hired by employers, an HR wanna be or something along those lines. You posts on just about EVERY thread support my position.

Listen to Joe. He was inside your employer's head and knows exactly what they were thinking and why. :rolleyes:

Good lord you’re a victim of yourself! Where do you think this guy works Disneyland? Listen to cbg and roll over for the boss, sign the entire waiver releasing the employer from your ADEA rights, your right to sue, and your right to file an unemployment claim. Joe :rolleyes:? Joe’s not here you banned him for not towing your bourgeois line of dung.

It's none of my nevermind. Do what you like. If you're convinced you can get a better deal, go for it. Just be aware that offers CAN be pulled off the table despite your insistance otherwise.

And I see Joe still thinks he's invisible.

It's none of my nevermind. Do what you like. If you're convinced you can get a better deal, go for it. Just be aware that offers CAN be pulled off the table despite your insistance otherwise.

And I see Joe still thinks he's invisible.

And I can quit before then and go work for their competitor using the knowledge that I have. Or worse yet, go work for their customer.
This is my problem with you.....you always cite what the employer can do. Well I got news for you, I have rights as well and I have options on what I can do.
Your position is to just bend over and take whatever they give you. Sorry, I am not that kind of person!
What I can tell you is that I promise to get a better deal than what is on the table This may take 5 months to play out but I will keep everyone posted.
You really need to take a look at yourself and some of the advice you are giving out. Stop reading out of the HR manual and get in touch with reality.

Fine. Whatever you say.