My husband is the NCP of his 8 year-old daughter.

The CP's attorney sent a letter threatening that she will file a petition for an increase in child support if he doesn't voluntarily agree to it. His pay has gone up quite a bit since the original child support order was issued, so she will end up getting an increase one way or another.

My husband would like to get a little bit more visitation (currently he has only Wednesday evenings and every other weekend, but no time during the summer) and is thinking about saying that he will agree to the increased child support (saving her the expense of going to court) if she will agree to a new visitation agreement.

My question is: I believe it's standard for the NCP to have some summer visitation. My husband had a bad attorney when the original custody agreement was established and he (my husband) just didn't know what he should be asking for. So what would be considered a reasonable amount of time for a NCP to have a child during the summer? In other words, if he were to go to court and request it, what might a judge order? I realize that no one can predict what an individual judge will do, but I'm looking for a ballpark idea of what would be reasonable to ask for. Also, during the time that the NCP has the child during the summer, does the CP get visitation usually?

My husband is the NCP of his 8 year-old daughter.

The CP's attorney sent a letter threatening that she will file a petition for an increase in child support if he doesn't voluntarily agree to it. His pay has gone up quite a bit since the original child support order was issued, so she will end up getting an increase one way or another.

My husband would like to get a little bit more visitation (currently he has only Wednesday evenings and every other weekend, but no time during the summer) and is thinking about saying that he will agree to the increased child support (saving her the expense of going to court) if she will agree to a new visitation agreement.

That is an absolutley horrible idea. Do not advise him for that. he cannot trade off support that he actually OWES in return for more visitation. If he wants to change his visitation file for it seperately. But under no circumstances should he bargain for it. She will say no, file for a change in support and based on what you say, will get it. That would just be a huge error on his part.

My question is: I believe it's standard for the NCP to have some summer visitation. My husband had a bad attorney when the original custody agreement was established and he (my husband) just didn't know what he should be asking for. So what would be considered a reasonable amount of time for a NCP to have a child during the summer? In other words, if he were to go to court and request it, what might a judge order? I realize that no one can predict what an individual judge will do, but I'm looking for a ballpark idea of what would be reasonable to ask for. Also, during the time that the NCP has the child during the summer, does the CP get visitation usually?

There is no standard. There is often extended summer time, but in some cases that is a week, in others it is six weeks, etc. It depends on many factors, including the child's age, relationship with the parent and geographical location.

Start small and work up. How about asking for a week to coincide with a week of vacation that he is taking?

That is an absolutley horrible idea. Do not advise him for that. he cannot trade off support that he actually OWES in return for more visitation. If he wants to change his visitation file for it seperately. But under no circumstances should he bargain for it. She will say no, file for a change in support and based on what you say, will get it. That would just be a huge error on his part.

I don't understand why it's such a horrible idea for him to at least make the offer. The bottom line is if he doesn't agree to increased child support, she will file for it. And if she doesn't agree to increased visitation, he will file for it. But if they both agree to it, they can avoid involving the court. He's not going to threaten her or anything like that, just make a friendly offer. How is that any different than her attorney sending a letter asking if he'll voluntarily agree to an increase in child support? And I'm not suggesting that he trade off the child support he owes for more visitation - I'm suggesting that he trade the hassle of her having to file for the hassle of him having to file. Can you help me understand why you think it's such a bad idea?

I don't understand why it's such a horrible idea for him to at least make the offer. The bottom line is if he doesn't agree to increased child support, she will file for it. And if she doesn't agree to increased visitation, he will file for it. But if they both agree to it, they can avoid involving the court. He's not going to threaten her or anything like that, just make a friendly offer. How is that any different than her attorney sending a letter asking if he'll voluntarily agree to an increase in child support? And I'm not suggesting that he trade off the child support he owes for more visitation - I'm suggesting that he trade the hassle of her having to file for the hassle of him having to file. Can you help me understand why you think it's such a bad idea?

Based on what you said, this is the plan:

1. He receives letter asking to increase support. He stipulates that he OWES this extra support.

2. He says, "Ok, I'll do it, but only if I get more visits."

You don't see that as bad? Visitation and support are two seperate issues. He cannot intertwine them. And saying he will give the extra if she gives him more time in the summer SUGGESTS that he is looking for a trade off, as if he does NOT want to pay the support (which he owes), but will do it in return for more time.

This is not a bargaining chip he actually has. He owes the support. Honestly, I wouldn't accept the "offer" to pay more voluntarially anyhow. HE should go to court to modify. He apparently should have done it long ago, based on what you said. But the obligation to pay it is already there. Don't try and trade it off, it will probably backfire, and he will end up paying more and STILL not having the extra visits.

You husband needs to file to modify the CS AND the visitaion orders himself. He should have it determined in court, not by her lawyer on a volunteer basis. If it's not court ordered, he shouldn't pay it.

I am also going on the assumption that your husband and her do not get along well. I made that assumption based on the fact that he received a letter from her attorney.

If they cannot even bring this up on their own, she has to get her lawyer involved with as you described it, "a letter threatening that she will file a petition for an increase in child support if he doesn't voluntarily agree to it," then how exactly is it possible for them to come up with a friendly agreement?

It is in everyone's best interest to go through the court and have it hammered out in a legally binding order, WITHOUT the give and take you are suggesting that crosses over different orders.

How far apart does your husband and his child live?

Does he have holiday visitation stipulated?

Let me try to explain what MoB is saying. I get where your husband is coming from, but perception of his actions is another thing. It will look VERY bad to wind up in court (which is where this will go if he makes the 'offer') and have to explain that he is willing to agree to more child support if his demands are met. CS and custody/visitation are two seperate issues. My sig line on another forum states:

Unless your child is Bobo The Two-Headed Dog-Boy at the county fair, you don't have to pay to see him.

Whether he pays child support or not, that is not a determining factor in whether or not he is entitled to parenting time with his child. On the flip side, he is not entitled to more parenting time just because he pays child support.



Honesly, the absolute BEST thing your husband can do (since he does realize that his support is going to go up, the question is how much) is to file to modify support (beat her to the punch) AND to file to modify the custody/visitation order.

I believe the child is 8, correct? 1/2 the summer with each parent having 2 uninterupted weeks with the child is completely reasonable. If he doesn't have holiday visitation, he needs to address that, too.

You husband needs to file to modify the CS AND the visitaion orders himself. He should have it determined in court, not by her lawyer on a volunteer basis. If it's not court ordered, he shouldn't pay it.

Why would he file to modify the child support himself? That doesn't make any sense. He doesn't owe any more child support than he is paying now unless she files for a modification and the court orders it.

How far apart does your husband and his child live?

Does he have holiday visitation stipulated?

Let me try to explain what MoB is saying. I get where your husband is coming from, but perception of his actions is another thing. It will look VERY bad to wind up in court (which is where this will go if he makes the 'offer') and have to explain that he is willing to agree to more child support if his demands are met.

Honesly, the absolute BEST thing your husband can do (since he does realize that his support is going to go up, the question is how much) is to file to modify support (beat her to the punch) AND to file to modify the custody/visitation order.

I believe the child is 8, correct? 1/2 the summer with each parent having 2 uninterupted weeks with the child is completely reasonable. If he doesn't have holiday visitation, he needs to address that, too.

What she said. :D

Why would he file to modify the child support himself? That doesn't make any sense. He doesn't owe any more child support than he is paying now unless she files for a modification and the court orders it.

Because one way or another, his CS is going to go up. It will look MUCH better (to the judge, who is going to be the person he wants to impress and win over) if HE files to modify the support instead of waiting for her to drag him into court and then attempting to modify the custody/visitation after CS is modified. It won't smack of retaliation.

Why would he file to modify the child support himself? That doesn't make any sense. He doesn't owe any more child support than he is paying now unless she files for a modification and the court orders it.

Because he owes it.

Isn't that what you said?

It does make sense. His pay has gone up significantly. If that is true, then he has not been paying enough. If he goes to the court on his own for an upward modification of support from him, man, will that ever look good and play out well on his behalf.

There is no rule that says only the person collecting the support can file to modify. If he owes the money, he should pay it. He shouldn't wait to be asked.

He has a sometimes amicable and sometimes not so amicable relationship with the CP. She did have her lawyer send the letter but then she called my husband and said that the lawyer was wanting her to go ahead and file (less than a week after the letter was mailed) but that she wanted to talk to him about it and see what he thought was a reasonable time for him to respond. He told her he thought a couple of weeks was reasonable and she said she would wait to hear from him then.

I really think there's a good chance that she will agree to the increased visitation. It's not like he's going to be asking for massively more time than he has now, just some time during the summer and half of her Christmas and Spring breaks. I think she will look at it as "if I don't agree to this, he'll file a petition and we'll have to go through the hassle of going to court for something that he'll probably get".

He has a sometimes amicable and sometimes not so amicable relationship with the CP. She did have her lawyer send the letter but then she called my husband and said that the lawyer was wanting her to go ahead and file (less than a week after the letter was mailed) but that she wanted to talk to him about it and see what he thought was a reasonable time for him to respond. He told her he thought a couple of weeks was reasonable and she said she would wait to hear from him then.

I really think there's a good chance that she will agree to the increased visitation. It's not like he's going to be asking for massively more time than he has now, just some time during the summer and half of her Christmas and Spring breaks. I think she will look at it as "if I don't agree to this, he'll file a petition and we'll have to go through the hassle of going to court for something that he'll probably get".

Hopefully they can get along and come to an amicable agreement, but it is still in everyone's best interest to get it before a judge, signed sealed and delivered. You want it in writing. Visitation can get messy, and you don't want her changing her mind and taking away his summer or holiday time at the last minute.

I know going to court stinks. but he really should do it, for both issues.

I can see what you're saying that it might look bad to the court like he was trying to trade money for time, even though that's really not the spirit of what he was thinking.

What about this scenario: He voluntarily agrees to the modification of child support without going to court (sends his financial documents to her lawyer and agrees to the new amount assuming it's the right amount - which calculating IL child support is not rocket science).

Then after that's all finalized, he approaches her and asks if she would be willing to modify visitation. If she doesn't agree, he can file for it.

Hopefully they can get along and come to an amicable agreement, but it is still in everyone's best interest to get it before a judge, signed sealed and delivered. You want it in writing. Visitation can get messy, and you don't want her changing her mind and taking away his summer or holiday time at the last minute.

I know going to court stinks. but he really should do it, for both issues.

My perception (and I will need to verify this is correct) is that whatever is agreed to (child support, visitation, etc.), her lawyer will draw up the necessary papers which they will both sign and then take before the court stating that both parties have agreed to it. Then it would carry the force of a court order, right? But there wouldn't be a judge making a decision. Higher child support would be ordered, taken out of his paycheck, and paid through the state like it is now.

I can see what you're saying that it might look bad to the court like he was trying to trade money for time, even though that's really not the spirit of what he was thinking.

What about this scenario: He voluntarily agrees to the modification of child support without going to court (sends his financial documents to her lawyer and agrees to the new amount assuming it's the right amount - which calculating IL child support is not rocket science).

Then after that's all finalized, he approaches her and asks if she would be willing to modify visitation. If she doesn't agree, he can file for it.

Going to court on both issues is the best way to protect his rights. Why are you so against going to court?

If he volunteers more money without changing the court order, that money MAY NOT count as support, meaning she can file to modify later and he could owe back support, even if he's been paying the new agreed upon amount.

It is already May, there is no reason to put off asking for more visitation. Heck, I'd call and ask today. Just don't make it a part of the support issue. It is seperate.

But again, that really should go through the court as well. The reason: if she agrees to let him have, say, two weeks in July, then on July 1 they have a big old fight, she can back out of the deal and he has no way to remedy it, and the only one who suffers is the kiddo.

I am also in Illinois, and my son's father and I are working hard to hammer out an agreement on our own. But we also have a court date for next month, becasue we KNOW that no matter how well we can attempt tp get along and agree on this, it MUST go before a judge in order for it to be legally binding. That is in EVERYONE's best interest.

My perception (and I will need to verify this is correct) is that whatever is agreed to (child support, visitation, etc.), her lawyer will draw up the necessary papers which they will both sign and then take before the court stating that both parties have agreed to it. Then it would carry the force of a court order, right? But there wouldn't be a judge making a decision. Higher child support would be ordered, taken out of his paycheck, and paid through the state like it is now.

See, you said it right there: higher support would be ordered.

Someone has to order it, it's not a computer just making and approving a calculation. There will be a judge making that decision. Not everything that goes before a judge is a fight. Agreed orders also need a judge's approval.

Does your husband have an attorney?

HER attorney is under no obligation to make sure that what HE agrees to is filed with the court. That is HIS job. In fact, HER lawyer may actually be banned from that, as it may be seen as him representing both parties, a conflict of interest.

Once it is filed with the court, yes, it is legally binding. But to GET filed, a judge has to sign off on it. It will end up before a judge.

He shouldn't just agree to what HER lawyer says. He needs to represent himself or get representation (the latter is preferable).

Going to court on both issues is the best way to protect his rights. Why are you so against going to court?

I guess it's that its better IMO to substitute something known for something unknown. So they could go to court and he could get completely screwed - the judge could decide that he needs to pay 100% of medical expenses and health insurance and school expenses and childcare expenses in addition to increased child support and that he doesn't get any additional visitation. On the other hand, my husband could come out ahead - increased child support but a more liberal increase in visitation than he's asking for (1/2 of the summer, another night during the week, etc.). IMO it would be better if they could agree to increased child support and a modest increase in visitation. We know what we're getting, she knows what she's getting. Everyone's happy.

I guess it's that its better IMO to substitute something known for something unknown. So they could go to court and he could get completely screwed - the judge could decide that he needs to pay 100% of medical expenses and health insurance and school expenses and childcare expenses in addition to increased child support and that he doesn't get any additional visitation. On the other hand, my husband could come out ahead - increased child support but a more liberal increase in visitation than he's asking for (1/2 of the summer, another night during the week, etc.). IMO it would be better if they could agree to increased child support and a modest increase in visitation. We know what we're getting, she knows what she's getting. Everyone's happy.

Why would you expect this to happen? Is she asking for these things?

The judge is likely NOT going to just randomly decide that someone before him needs to start paying 100% of everything. That is nonsense. My son's father was ordered to pay support and half of uncovered medical. The reason he wasn't asked to pay anymore: I didn't ask for it.

It's not reasonable to assume that the judge would order him to pay for absolutley everything, thus your best bet is to stay away from the court. That's.... well, it's just not right, for lack of a better way to say it. In my experiences, not only have the judges in Illinois been fair, but they have given mmy son's father, who up until now was pretty much the definition of a deadbeat parent, chances on top of chances to work this out with me.

I don't know why you are expecting the absolute worst, but going to court is the best way for your husband to protect his rights.

Why would you expect this to happen? Is she asking for these things?

If he doesn't agree to what she's asking for now or tells her they should let the court decide, that will make her mad. He will be accused of being unwilling to support his daughter. It's not reasonable but she's not reasonable. My husband's relationship with her is amicable as long as he goes along with whatever she wants. But the second he disagrees with anything, she flies off the handle. So she will get mad and then to prove a point to him (that he should have just agreed to what she was asking for), she will ask for everything that she can possibly think of.

If he doesn't agree to what she's asking for now or tells her they should let the court decide, that will make her mad. He will be accused of being unwilling to support his daughter. It's not reasonable but she's not reasonable. My husband's relationship with her is amicable as long as he goes along with whatever she wants. But the second he disagrees with anything, she flies off the handle. So she will get mad and then to prove a point to him (that he should have just agreed to what she was asking for), she will ask for everything that she can possibly think of.

That is complete and utter bunk (from her, not you), and any competent judge will see right through it.

Your husband has just as many rights as the parent of this child as she does. Don't let her railroad you guys into agreeing to her demands or she'll see you in court.

Hell, call her bluff.

Even better, file for the modification in support and visitaion yourselves. What is she going to do, try and convice the judge that he doesn't care when he is the one going to court to PAY more and SEE the child more? "Gee your honor, he doens't care enough and should pay 100% of everything..... even though he is trying to see her more and make an upward modification of what he owes...."

Yeah, that's not gonna fly.

Don't give her that kind of power. She is a grown woman. If she wants to have a tantrum, let her. A judge won't stand for it.

Does your husband have an attorney? he should have one. And he should file for a modification in support and visitation. Like, yesterday. Don't be afraid to rattle her cage or stir the pot. It's his child too. He has rights.

Back to my original question. I do understand what you guys are saying about trading child support for visitation and will take that into consideration. But what is a reasonable amount of summer visitation to request?

The child is 8. My husband and the CP live within 15 minutes of each other.

My husband has never once missed any of his visitation time with her.

He does have holiday visitation. Every other holiday of New Years, Easter, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, and the child's birthday. He has her every Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve. The CP has her every Christmas. He has her on Father's Day. Does that sound pretty standard?

Even better, file for the modification in support and visitaion yourselves. What is she going to do, try and convice the judge that he doesn't care when he is the one going to court to PAY more and SEE the child more? "Gee your honor, he doens't care enough and should pay 100% of everything..... even though he is trying to see her more and make an upward modification of what he owes...."

My point......:D

Oh, and it also needs to be said that just because she will ASK for something, that doesn't mean a judge is going to just automatically award what she asks for. (unless, of course, your husband just decides to blow off the whole response and showing up to court thing. Somehow, I don't think that will happen.)

Back to my original question. I do understand what you guys are saying about trading child support for visitation and will take that into consideration. But what is a reasonable amount of summer visitation to request?

The child is 8. My husband and the CP live within 15 minutes of each other.

My husband has never once missed any of his visitation time with her.

He does have holiday visitation. Every other holiday of New Years, Easter, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, and the child's birthday. He has her every Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve. The CP has her every Christmas. He has her on Father's Day. Does that sound pretty standard?

Nope....

Thanksgiving and Christmas should alternate. He deserves the big holidays, too. I don't think she impregnated herself and she is sure not raising this child on her own. The child has a daddy and Daddy is involved and right there. That needs to be addressed.

As they are only 15 minutes apart, the summer could easily be alternating weeks with each parent ordered to have 2 uninterupted weeks (for vacations, whatever). The summer should be evenly split. They don't HAVE to alternate weeks to get an even split. It just seems that as they are so close together, it would be easy enough on the child.

Oh, and it also needs to be said that just because she will ASK for something, that doesn't mean a judge is going to just automatically award what she asks for. (unless, of course, your husband just decides to blow off the whole response and showing up to court thing. Somehow, I don't think that will happen.)

I do realize that. We have this one judge in our county who is notoriously one sided when it comes to child custody/child support issues. Some of the stories I've heard you wouldn't believe. Knowing our luck we would get stuck with that judge. But I do hear everything you all are saying and I'm thinking about the idea of him filing for both (although it's certainly counter-intuitive to think about him asking the court if he can pay more) but I see how that would look when it came to him asking for more visitation.

Thanksgiving and Christmas should alternate. He deserves the big holidays, too. I don't think she impregnated herself and she is sure not raising this child on her own. The child has a daddy and Daddy is involved and right there. That needs to be addressed.

Oops. I should have clarified that. He actually agreed to the Thanksgiving and Christmas arrangement. Thanksgiving is a huge holiday for his family but his family celebrates Christmas on the weekend before or after so it wasn't a big deal for him to have her on Christmas. And it actually works our really well. Santa comes to our house on the night of December 23rd and we celebrate Christmas Eve just like it's Christmas. And we don't have to deal with a tired cranky child who says things like "I already got that at my mom's house". : )

But is the list of holidays reasonable? He has some other holidays (MLK Day, Veterans Day) that he gets off work but I didn't know if it what he has as far as visitation is kind of the standard holidays.

Well, if he's okay with the Thanksgiving and Christmas arrangement, that's fine. :)

As for MLK day, etc., those days are not usually included in custody/visitation orders. The list he has now is actually pretty fair and more or less standard.

Oh, I meant to add that whoever has the week of the 4th of July with her has her for that day. No need to disrupt the week for that one day. That's easy to handle. Let's say that Dad has her for the 4th this year. Then this year, he would be sure that that week is one of his weeks. They can alternate that week every year from there on out.