What if they are going to pay you, but your boss told you the seminar was "motivational and spiritual"? I worked at home as a medical transcriptionist for a Catholic-affiliated hospital. I think my refusal to attend this seminar, even after my boss reiterated that it was "mandatory" and rescheduled me, set the stage for what I would call a "constructive discharge". They had increased our production rate by 10% in October, and three weeks before I quit, I learned from an employee in the office that I was being assigned specific dictators (mostly foreign-born doctors) by the senior transcriptionist, which deviated from the standard practice of routing jobs only by work type and chronological order of dictation. I had already suspected this and complained to my boss several months earlier, but she dismissed my grievance as a figment of my imagination. When the office employee called three weeks before I quit and asked me to type a series of reports by a certain foreign-born physician that were "assigned" to me, I again complained about being assigned specific dictators and again my boss and her supervisor denied any irregularity and dismissed my complaint. A similar routing issue occurred on the day I quit, and it was obvious at that point that this was going to continue no matter how many times I complained. I had a temporary lapse in judgment and sent my immediate resignation via email, which they quickly accepted the next morning, no questions asked. In retrospect, they may have even set me up by assigning this dictator to me, knowing that I would quit in anger and frustration. I had been on FMLA intermittent leave since 2004 due to back pain and leg numbness of unknown etiology (probably job-related, due to all the sitting), and it literally took an act of Congress to convince them to modify my schedule so that I could work in split shifts and get up often in order to earn 40 "hours" per week. Aside from being on intermittent leave, I never actually used much FMLA time, but the fact that I even applied for FMLA seemed like an insult to these people and I had to spell out my legal rights, which they did not seem to appreciate much. I cannot prove constructive discharge, but I know that they did not treat me fairly and now they are probably giving me bad references, although the HR director did tell me when I asked why I was ineligible for rehire that it was not because of my job performance. I guess I'm venting here and have gotten carried away. Sorry. Is religious indoctrination something we just have to tolerate if we want to eat? Does anything I've described sound like religious discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act or retaliation/constructive discharge under the FMLA? I guess I should mention that I'm agnostic.


I hate those things. They're counterproductive, in my opinion. I don't like to hike and fish. :rolleyes:

OK, off soapbox now. :p

According to the FLSA, here is the criteria that must exist for meetings, seminars, etc. to NOT be compensable (it's the mandatory part that makes this compensable):
http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/ESA/Title_29/Part_785/29CFR785.27.htm

Also, note here regarding "mandatory":
http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/ESA/Title_29/Part_785/29CFR785.28.htm

Sounds like compensable time to me.

It would have been better if you'd started your own thread, Barry Watts. It was kind of hard to read that huge block o'text and it did appear you were rambling somewhat.

Do you have a legal question?

It's in his own thread now.

When you sign on to work for a religious organization, you have to assume religion will occaisionally be discussed.

That is like taking a job as a church organist but then complaining about having to listen to the sermon.

If you don't want to be surrounded by religion, work for a non religious organization.

If I read this correctly, it sounds like you worked from home so I'm not sure why you couldn't stand and work or use a different chair or stretch as needed, but that is beside the point. You were on FMLA for 3 years before you quit. I'm not seeing how this is in any way constructive discharge.

I'm also not seeing any connection to this seminar and your decision to quit. You quit as you did not like the assignment you were given. If you didn't attend, how do you know the content of the seminar and whether there was anything which would have been objectionable?

I only know what my boss told me when I asked her what the seminar was about. She described it as "spiritual and motivational", which to me sounds like more self-praise of their phony mission of "Christian charity" in what is clearly a profit-oriented enterprise. My refusal to attend was not taken lightly by my boss and our relationship went downhill from there. I doubt the seminar was actually "mandatory", because another department manager had sent an email the day before urging everyone who could to attend, so I may have called her bluff on the seminar being mandatory. I'm sure if it was mandatory they could and would have fired me then and there, but they didn't.

I recognize that some exposure to religious doctrine can be expected when working for a "religious organization", but I'm not sure a Catholic-affiliated profit-driven enterprise can be considered a religious organization. This was a four-hour seminar, by the way, so it wasn't just a little exposure to whatever type of propaganda they were spewing. I can handle the yearly tests to evaluate our knowledge of the organization's Christian mission of healing, etc., but four hours of this stuff?

I agree that there is probably no claim for constructive discharge, aside from the fact that I was being assigned specific (difficult to understand, foreign-born) dictators when all the other transcriptionists were being randomly routed work by report type and chronological order of dictation, which is standard procedure. I complained about this on several occasions, but my boss denied I was being assigned specific dictators, even after one of her office employees called and asked me to do a series of "assigned" reports by one of these dictators. I guess you would have to know my boss and the "good old girl" network in our HIM department to understand why I suspect I was pushed into resigning. You would also have to understand that some of these dictators speak English so poorly that a report that would normally take 10 or 15 minutes to type could take hours, hours that don't count when you work on a production basis.

Whatever the current interpretation of the law says, I firmly believe that freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion. If employers are obligated by law to make concessions for certain religions, why shouldn't they be obligated to protect the rights of agnostics, atheists, and people who just don't want to be exposed to religious indoctrination in the workplace?

If I read this correctly, it sounds like you worked from home so I'm not sure why you couldn't stand and work or use a different chair or stretch as needed, but that is beside the point. You were on FMLA for 3 years before you quit. I'm not seeing how this is in any way constructive discharge.

I'm also not seeing any connection to this seminar and your decision to quit. You quit as you did not like the assignment you were given. If you didn't attend, how do you know the content of the seminar and whether there was anything which would have been objectionable?

Obviously you are only going to see this the way you want to see it and no other. A motivational seminar is not necessarily religious indoctrination. If your supervisor wanted to make it manadtory for their employees, they could do so. Had you calmly explained your concerns and if the content of this seminar was so offensive to your beliefs you could request to be exempt on those grounds but to just announce you aren't going and that is that does not afford you any protections. Four hours is not that long reallly.

And no, it does not matter that this is a Catholic run enterprise. It is still a religious organization. If you want total freedom from religion, logic dictates that you not then go work for an employer operated by a church.

Good advice. I assure you I will not work for another "faith-based organization". I'm sure everything you say is true from a legal perspective, but there's no doubt what side of the political spectrum you are on. Maybe you will find yourself working for a Muslim-owned business one day and be compelled to sing the praises of Allah. Then you might not be so critical of my point of view.


Obviously you are only going to see this the way you want to see it and no other. A motivational seminar is not necessarily religious indoctrination. If your supervisor wanted to make it manadtory for their employees, they could do so. Had you calmly explained your concerns and if the content of this seminar was so offensive to your beliefs you could request to be exempt on those grounds but to just announce you aren't going and that is that does not afford you any protections. Four hours is not that long reallly.

And no, it does not matter that this is a Catholic run enterprise. It is still a religious organization. If you want total freedom from religion, logic dictates that you not then go work for an employer operated by a church.

Good advice. I assure you I will not work for another "faith-based organization". I'm sure everything you say is true from a legal perspective, but there's no doubt what side of the political spectrum you are on. Maybe you will find yourself working for a Muslim-owned business one day and be compelled to sing the praises of Allah. Then you might not be so critical of my point of view.

What makes you so sure I have not worked with such an organization?

Would you also say that religious minorities working for "faith-based organizations" should go work somewhere else if they want freedom of/from religion? I'm pretty sure agnostics and atheists are included as protected classes. You're telling me I should go work somewhere else. Is that what you would tell a Muslim or a Jew or even a Baptist who doesn't particularly care for Catholic doctrine?

Obviously you are only going to see this the way you want to see it and no other. A motivational seminar is not necessarily religious indoctrination. If your supervisor wanted to make it manadtory for their employees, they could do so. Had you calmly explained your concerns and if the content of this seminar was so offensive to your beliefs you could request to be exempt on those grounds but to just announce you aren't going and that is that does not afford you any protections. Four hours is not that long reallly.

And no, it does not matter that this is a Catholic run enterprise. It is still a religious organization. If you want total freedom from religion, logic dictates that you not then go work for an employer operated by a church.

I think you make a lame comparison. First of all, a church organist is likely to be a member of the congregation and would probably thoroughly enjoy the sermon. Secondly, most people in a business or healthcare setting would see discussing religion as unprofessional, since diversification is a major goal of modern business. I would compare this to "faith-based organizations" that feed the homeless. You have to listen to a little fire and brimstone if you want that bowl of soup.


When you sign on to work for a religious organization, you have to assume religion will occaisionally be discussed.

That is like taking a job as a church organist but then complaining about having to listen to the sermon.

If you don't want to be surrounded by religion, work for a non religious organization.

If someone were to be bothered by the fact that the organization is a faith based one, then yes, I'd recommend that they seek employment elsewhere. Same as I'd recommend to those who disliked children but went to work for a school, or a non-profit whose mission they did not support.

The law only requires that you not be discriminated against on the basis of your beliefs, not that you are entitled to a workplace devoid of any and all beliefs. It isn't a violation of the law to discuss religion at work and certainly not at a place of business run by a church.

Is that what you would tell a Muslim or a Jew or even a Baptist who doesn't particularly care for Catholic doctrine?

I'm not the one who initially made the statement, but, yes, that is exactly what I would tell them.

In that case, as-Salaam-Alaikum.

What makes you so sure I have not worked with such an organization?

This conversation is built on sand.

You don't know what the conference was going to talk about. I have been to Dale Carnegie courses that were spiritually uplifting and no one asked me what brand of God I prayed to.

Regardless, you cannot imagine what a conference would be about and then complain about the imagined conference.

If you want your discrimination to be taken seriously, you should have shown up for it.

I think you make a lame comparison. First of all, a church organist is likely to be a member of the congregation and would probably thoroughly enjoy the sermon. Secondly, most people in a business or healthcare setting would see discussing religion as unprofessional, since diversification is a major goal of modern business. I would compare this to "faith-based organizations" that feed the homeless. You have to listen to a little fire and brimstone if you want that bowl of soup.

I think you are blind to the obvious.

When you signed on to work at Holy Mother of the Perpetual Sorrow Hospital, you should have known that religion would occaisionally be talked about.

Were you surprised to see nuns there, too?